Creatures with 0 Charisma or 0 Wisdom

[Lysander]

There are mindless creatures with no intelligence score. Why not charisma-less or wisdom-less creatures as well?

A charisma-less creature might denote a hive-mind intelligence, either literally a mass mind controlled from outside or a complete automaton. It might be smart enough to perform complex actions and wise enough to have keen senses, but would never respond to attacks or notice disturbances. For example, an insect that can find a path through a complex tunnel system, pick up food, distribute it to several different chambers.

A wisdom-less creature would denote something with no way of perceiving the world around it or taking input of any kind. It might still perform complex actions though, and have a sense of self. For example, a computer instructed to calculate Pi for infinity.

[Kylarra]

I feel compelled to point out that 0 in a stat is different from a null stat.

[Glass Mouse]

Are there really no creatures with null cha or wis? Huh...

Makes some kind of sense, though... Since charisma determines (among other things) looks, you can't have a monster with null cha. It'd have no appearance... or personality. An invisible hive, maybe? Meh.

A monster with null wis wouldn't be able to conceive the world around it. I could see this for creatures born to be mind-controlled (or just regularly controlled), but the controller would have to be nearby, always, to guide the creature. Not very effective for anyone.

However, since I don't KNOW, I'm just guessing!
Anyone else?

[Lycanthromancer]

Charisma also determines a creature's ability to affect the world around it. Anything with -- Cha literally cannot affect anything of its own volition.

Wisdom determines a creature's sense of self, and allows it to be distinguishes from its surroundings. Anything with -- Wis is not distinguishable from the world around it.

Thus, things with -- Cha and Wis (and if they have one they always have the other) are objects, not creatures.

Something with Int X and Wis and Cha -- would be like a computer. It can run processes fed to it, but it's still not a creature (or even an intelligent item).

[Eldan]

I thought sense of self was charisma...

So, therefore, a creature with charisma -- would have no sense of self. It wouldn't know that it exists, and wouldn't perceive itself. At least, that's my theory.

On the other hand, Wisdom -- would mean it can't perceive it's surroundings. Most likely, it wouldn't even know anything except itself exists in the world.

[Lycanthromancer]

Wisdom helps you distinguish "you" from "not you". Thus, your sense of self.

Wisdom is force of will (?:smallconfused:?) and input. Charisma is force of personality and output. They overlap a bit.

But really, Cha should be used for Will saves, rather than Wis.

[Maryring]

But that'd make Wisdom the "essential dumpstat"...

[AstralFire]

That owes something to the fact that either Charisma or Wisdom should probably go bye-bye, assuming the other's place as an attribute, and keep either Common Sense or Social Grace purely in the realm of skills. Speaking from a viewpoint purely concerned with keeping attributes separated.

Str/Con being two stats completely independent of each other doesn't make much sense, either.

[Maryring]

But then again, there are monsters with constitution without strength, and around.

Either way, it deviates from the original question. Interesting as it is, Animate Objects have Wis/Cha 1 but - Int. So I don't think there is any creatures with - for Wis/Cha.

[NEO|Phyte]

Wisdom

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)

I need some text outside of the quote tags so I can post this.

[MickJay]

I prefer to see Charisma mostly in terms of willpower, drive to do things and affect people. Wisdom is about common sense and understanding the world around the character. This helps to avoid making charisma a total dump stat (6 charisma? roll to see if you feel like getting out of bed today).

[Lysander]

There is a lot of overlap since a 0 or null in any of the three is a nonfunctional human being. But there could be subtle differences in creatures designed to operate without the score.

Mindless (0 Int) - Operates on instinct alone, simple reactions to simple stimulus. Moving towards food, retreating from obvious threats.

Senseless (0 Wis) - Operates on instinct alone, no way of sensing the world or its own body even, simple or complex actions based on instinct or programming regardless of stimulus. Cut off a witless creature's leg and it'll keep moving the other one as if it were still walking normally.

Selfless (0 Cha) - Can form intelligent plans and change its behavior based on stimulus, but cannot understand the idea of other beings or objects. There is only good stimulus or bad stimulus. It can learn how to attain or avoid different types of stimulus, possibly in complex ways, but never attributes anything it perceives as being caused by someone.

For example, let's imagine three kinds of zombies, one mindless, one senseless, one selfless. All three have the instinct to eat human flesh.

Zombie A has no intelligence. It's wisdom allows it to see humans and its charisma allows it to identify a human as human. Because it has no intelligence all it can do is lurch dumbly towards prey. Put a door in its path and it'll hit the door rather than try the doorknob. Real world example: Roomba.

Zombie B has no wisdom, and cannot perceive the world. It's intelligence allows it to follow a complex course of action, and its charisma allows that course to be designed to catch humans. For example, crawling on the floor in a spiral while snapping at the air so that it will eat any flesh it encounters and covers all territory. Real world example: traffic light.

Zombie C has no charisma. It instinctively likes the taste of flesh but doesn't know what flesh looks like. It'll take a bite out of everything around it but only continue eating what looks good. Zombie C can figure out how to open a doorknob but it'll try biting the doorknob first. If forced to choose between attacking a tree or a human being singing and doing jumping jacks it'll pick at random. Real world example: Human baby, within the context of picking between eating a grape and a purple lego.

[Zeta Kai]

NEO|Phyte & Lysander pretty much nailed this. In 3E, a creature with a nul Wisdom &/or Charisma score is an inanimate object. Even animated objects are functionally aware of themselves & their surroundings.

[Rixx]

Charisma effects how in tune you are with your own identity and personality, and by extension how well you can project your will upon others. A creature with no Charisma score has no self-awareness - like a plant.

Wisdom determines how in tune you are with your surroundings, with the personalities of others, and the world you live in. A creature with no Wisdom score is completely unaware that anything besides itself exists.

Therefore, a creature with no Wisdom or Charisma is an inanimate object.

[Maryring]

So the general consensus is that we have a general consensus. Awesome.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, I believe there were creatures given as examples of something with a null-stat in the PHB, weren't there?

Ahh, missed the relevant quoted section.

Those really, really basic modrons which can't even perceive others or themselves would probably be the closest contenders to CHA-less, I guess...

[Berserk Monk]

I thought constructs had 0 char and wis?

[Mr. Mud]

Does RAW define Charisma as "force of one's personality"?

[Lysander]

I thought constructs had 0 char and wis?

All constructs have no constitution, some are mindless and have no Int. But even a mindless creatures still has cha and wis. All current creatures have Cha and Wis. What I'm doing is proposing two new categories of creatures.

[Talya]

When differentiating between wisdom and charisma, it's best to think of them like their physical analogues, constitution and strength.

Often, when we refer to something as "strong" in real life, we are referring to its ability to withstand damage, a structural strength rather than one of an active power. This is especially true of the word "Tough." That guy is "Tough." Tough to take down, or he hits hard? It can mean either, or both. In D&D these concepts are differentiated: constitution is that defensive, structural toughness--the ability to withstand damage and keep going. Strength is that active physical power, the ability to affect the world around you with your physical body.

The Wisdom score is analoguous to a mental version of constitution. It represents the ability to withstand mental assault, to protect your personality defensively.

The Charisma score is analogues to a mental version of strength. It represents the ability to affect the world around you with your personality alone.

(The analogy continues nicely if you compare intelligence and dexterity, actually, the six ability scores are well designed this way.)

As has already been pointed out, anything without either charisma or wisdom has no sense of self or personality and is an object.

[AstralFire]

Charisma effects how in tune you are with your own identity and personality, and by extension how well you can project your will upon others. A creature with no Charisma score has no self-awareness - like a plant.

Wisdom determines how in tune you are with your surroundings, with the personalities of others, and the world you live in. A creature with no Wisdom score is completely unaware that anything besides itself exists.

Therefore, a creature with no Wisdom or Charisma is an inanimate object.

Rixx wins the thread.

[Lysander]

No null wis/cha creatures currently exist or can exist per the rules, but it's totally possible to homebrew rules to allow one.

A null wis creature is easier to imagine than a null cha creature. That just means it has no way of perceiving or comprehending the world. It can still act, just not in reaction to anything. In fact, it doesn't even know that it's acting.

A null cha creature is one that doesn't react to other creatures at all. It can't identify them as something other than itself. Even a bee has enough charisma to identify someone as an enemy and sting them. This hypothetical creature would just withdraw from attacks, or ignore them without understanding why it's being injured.

[ericgrau]

Are there really no creatures with null cha or wis? Huh...
Absolutely none by RAW. Because a creature with cha -, also has wis -, and the rules define such as an object not a creature. Wis - and cha - mean it can't interact with its environment. It's not just blind, it simply has no understanding of the concept of other creatures/objects.

Even automatons have wis and cha, just no int.

If you want to homebrew such a "creature", then make it like a trap or other such mechanism. Outside events can directly trigger it to do certain things, but it can't make decisions at all b/c it doesn't actually understand what's triggering it. The trigger just causes the pre-determined outcome directly, whether that's good for the "creature" or not.

[Ravens_cry]

There is already rules for zero ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm).

[Lycanthromancer]

There is already rules for zero ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm).

Which are totally different than ability scores of --.

I'd say Int + and Wis/Cha -- "creatures" would be just like a computer. They can extrapolate from commands that are put in, but they really have no actual ability to sense the world or differentiate the world from itself.

Even a computer with a camera would simply be responding to a command given (whether by color or by movement). The difference between this and an actual creature is that the computer is simply unable to take any kind of proaction at all. No initiative. It's ALWAYS in response to a command given it beforehand. Though it can do quite complicated processes once that command is given.

[AslanCross]

There is already rules for zero ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm).

It was pointed out above that a -- score is different from a 0 score.
A creature with -- intelligence can still operate (because it doesn't need processing power to do so), but a creature with an actual score that has it dropped to 0 collapses into a coma.

A creature with a 0 ability score is penalized more than a creature with a -- ability score.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Ravens_cry]

Which are totally different than ability scores of --.

I'd say Int + and Wis/Cha -- "creatures" would be just like a computer. They can extrapolate from commands that are put in, but they really have no actual ability to sense the world or differentiate the world from itself.

Even a computer with a camera would simply be responding to a command given (whether by color or by movement). The difference between this and an actual creature is that the computer is simply unable to take any kind of proaction at all. No initiative. It's ALWAYS in response to a command given it beforehand. Though it can do quite complicated processes once that command is given.
Yeah, we got those, they are called 'zombies', 'animated skeletons', and 'golems'.

[Maryring]

By RAW, making characters without Charisma and Wisdom is just not feasible, nor can it be done to have characters lacking one but not the other. So in order to make these new creatures you have to redefine Wisdom and Charisma to ignore RAW and even then you're left with... why? How are traps interesting creatures worth expending time on making when you have such an enormous spectrum of things to create that do have some modicum of mental ability.

[Lysander]

By RAW, making characters without Charisma and Wisdom is just not feasible, nor can it be done to have characters lacking one but not the other. So in order to make these new creatures you have to redefine Wisdom and Charisma to ignore RAW and even then you're left with... why? How are traps interesting creatures worth expending time on making when you have such an enormous spectrum of things to create that do have some modicum of mental ability.

It doesn't have to be a mindless trap. Allowing it to have intelligence allows it to be smart and even understand language.

Why bother? Coming up with a feasible null INT/WIS creature would allow players to encounter extremely alien creatures with worldviews totally different than their own.

For example a 0 cha creature than can't distinguish its own thoughts from what people tell it. Or a 0 Wis creature that spends all eternity performing a math calculation, or is an incarnate form of a single emotion.

[TheCountAlucard]

Y'know, this is clearly evidence revealing the horrid nature behind those awful, hated trees...

[Lysander]

Y'know, this is clearly evidence revealing the horrid nature behind those awful, hated trees...

Technically a normal non-magical tree is null Int, Wis, and Cha. Actually I might give it 1 Wis just because it can react and grow towards sunlight.

[ZeroNumerous]

Aren't Voidmind creatures utterly unable to resist an illithid? Isn't that the same result as Charisma -- except central to one species?