Zceryll - How to fix?

[Boci]

I am planning on using a binder NPC who binds this vestige, but I do not want to make them OP. So firstly, what makes her overpowered? I checked the abilities she grants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) and it seems to me that if you removed Summon Alien she would still be a solid 5th level vestige, and that if her most powerful ability. Even with the 5 round cool down, at level 10 you can summon them for 10 rounds, so that means you can have 2 around you at all time provided you can stop every 5th round to perform a full round action.
So, if I want the binder to use Zceryll and her summon alien ability, how could I do that?

Option 1: Make Zceryll count as two vestiges?

Option 2 (watered down option 1): Limit the level of the second vestige bound, maybe to level 3?

Options 3: Remove bolts of madness and either telepathy or Alien form? Maybe in conjunction with option 2?

[Optimystik]

Zceryll isn't overpowered - The summon monster line is quite weak, and the cooldown prevents you from flooding the battlefield, unless the enemy takes more than 5 rounds to kill/dismiss a summon.

[lsfreak]

Well, first of all you can't even bind it until 12th level, unless you have the Improved Binding feat.

Secondly, keep in mind a wizard or sorcerer or cleric or druid can pump out a *lot* more monsters that a binder.

Then take into account that that's its not a full round action but takes a full round to cast, that is it takes until just before your next turn starts in order to summon it, which gives plenty of time to interrupt.

Finally, consider how often battles actually last. In my experience, you'll end up with the second monster appearing during the cleanup phase of the battle anywho (exception: huge endurance battles where the PC's need all the help they can get anywho).

[Boci]

Zceryll isn't overpowered - The summon monster line is quite weak, and the cooldown prevents you from flooding the battlefield, unless the enemy takes more than 5 rounds to kill/dismiss a summon.

Yes but she is a solid 5th level vestidge without the ability. Maddening bolts, a reasonably good template and a nice bonus to saves.


Well, first of all you can't even bind it until 12th level, unless you have the Improved Binding feat.

You make it sound as if every binder doesn't take that feat. If not at level 1 than 4.


Secondly, keep in mind a wizard or sorcerer or cleric or druid can pump out a *lot* more monsters that a binder.

True, but this is just one ability of one vestidge.


Then take into account that that's its not a full round action but takes a full round to cast, that is it takes until just before your next turn starts in order to summon it, which gives plenty of time to interrupt.

Cannot interupt supernatural abilities, expect by death.


Finally, consider how often battles actually last. In my experience, you'll end up with the second monster appearing during the cleanup phase of the battle anywho (exception: huge endurance battles where the PC's need all the help they can get anywho).

Yes but you'll start combat with two monsters.



Ultimatly if a lot of people say she is fine I won't make any changes. But I've heard quite a few people say she is OP.

[peacenlove]

Also supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) are either a) Always active or b) Usable as a standard action unless otherwise noted, even those that originate from spells.
Therefore the summon alien ability would be usable as a standard action.
Just place a limitation "You can use this ability to summon a second creature 5 rounds after the first creature is dismissed or destroyed"

[Optimystik]

Yes but she is a solid 5th level vestidge without the ability. Maddening bolts, a reasonably good template and a nice bonus to saves.

Despite the name, the bolts only inflict daze. And they also have the 5 round cooldown. There are stronger vestiges out there, trust me.


True, but this is just one ability of one vestidge.

No amount of vestiges can compare to actual spell slots. Binder is quite balanced, almost on the weak side.


Yes but you'll start combat with two monsters.

Who will promptly be cut down in a CR-appropriate encounter.


Ultimatly if a lot of people say she is fine I won't make any changes. But I've heard quite a few people say she is OP.

She barely warrants a mention in the Binder Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0). Compared to the other synergies in there, I think you're fine.

[Boci]

Despite the name, the bolts only inflict daze. And they also have the 5 round cooldown. There are stronger vestiges out there, trust me.

Stronger than other 6th level ones?

She grants an ability that neutralizes a single foe for 1-3 rounds, no tags attached like mind affecting to allow immunity, and its a will save. You will regret that it requires a ranged touch attack occasionaly, but how often? Yes it has a 5 action cool down, like all other vestiges. The template is powerful, giving resistences and 1/day free action truestrike. The resistences and immunities are also good, and telepathy has its uses. Throw in the summon ability and what can the other 6th level vestiges possibly offer that outshines that?

[Longcat]

Among the other 6th level vestiges, there is Chupoclops, who grants you Pounce. Combine him with one of the mounted combat vestiges, and you'll have a sick damage dealer.
Haures offers you Mind Blank, Greater Displacement and Major image at will. The first two are permanent, and while major image has a 5 rounds cooldown, the things you can do with it are limited only by your imagination.

Compared to them, Zceryll seems pretty balanced to me.

[Akal Saris]

I'd suggest just adding the line that you can only have 1 pseudonatural summon active at any given time.

And really, is your character going to be stopping every 30 seconds to summon a new monster? Most likely he'll only have a single summon out when the group is about to open a door or something, which is probably every other encounter at best.

I think it's a strong vestige to bind, and it fits in perfectly with my playstyle unlike chupoclops, but it's not that OP.

[Boci]

And really, is your character going to be stopping every 30 seconds to summon a new monster?

Why not? You can do so infinite times?

[Akal Saris]

Because it would be a PITA!

[Boci]

Because it would be a PITA!

Well would you rather that or risk being ambushed without anything to act as a meat shield?

[Optimystik]

I don't have my ToM on me to get the details, but Haures (in addition to Longcat's listed bonuses) lets you go incorporeal. Desharis lets you animate objects as its cooldown ability, teleport through doorways and has a constant tongues effect. The Triad are more for out of combat, but basically turn you into the party know-it-all. I don't think Zceryll is a gamebreaker.

Compare her to a warlock, who can pop meatshields up all day long at the same level without a cooldown and is still underpowered. If that's all you're worried about, wouldn't they be worse?