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HMS Invincible
2009-11-02, 02:40 PM
Has anyone tried using real life scientific principles to solve d&d problems? For example, I'm stuck on an island, but we have a boat. Nobody here is a sailor, but we have an accurate map. Would it be too much to use trig to chart our path? Or figure out how to jerry-rig explosives out of naturally occurring materials?

Gorbash
2009-11-02, 02:43 PM
No. For that particular use, you have Knowledge (Geography) or Profession (Sailor). Using RL science is metagaming, IMHO. And can't really apply science in a world that bends and breaks every law of science possible.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 02:44 PM
In a standard medieval-stasis world, trig is unlikely unless you have some Mechanus-related people in your party, but the explosive part might be covered with alchemy.
EDIT: K (geography) or its ilk may indeed entail cutting-edge trig navigation, so it would be part of the skill check already.

jiriku
2009-11-02, 02:48 PM
I've played in groups in which the DM and most of the players were engineers or computer scientists, and these games tended to involve a lot of real-world physics. I've also played in games where no one had a college degree, and advanced science wasn't welcome there. I suppose it's just a matter of what the group is comfortable with....

LibraryOgre
2009-11-02, 02:49 PM
Has anyone tried using real life scientific principles to solve d&d problems? For example, I'm stuck on an island, but we have a boat. Nobody here is a sailor, but we have an accurate map. Would it be too much to use trig to chart our path? Or figure out how to jerry-rig explosives out of naturally occurring materials?

In d20, I would say no. What you can do is very much limited by your skills and abilities... if you don't have Geography, Survival, or a Profession: sailor skill, chances are you're not going to be able to plot a course except by dead reckoning (i.e. "We're going this fast, in this direction, so we should be about here".) If you don't have Craft: Alchemy, you're not going to be making explosives.

In AD&D, I'd allow it, but I'd ask people how they knew the things they were trying... like if they wanted to make gunpowder, I'd require them to their have a good background explanation or work out the steps on their own.

Nero24200
2009-11-02, 03:03 PM
It would depend. Just because you know somthing RL doesn't mean your character will. Alot of people overestimate that anyone living in the modern world can easily learn the basics of most things easily, whilst trying to learn something like that in medievil times was harder.

I think it applies equally in D'n'D (despite not being medievil in the strictest sense), mostly because whenever I see a map of any D'n'D city the only schools/collages/universities are always for mages, so this, to me, implies that much like in medievil times, only particularly wealthy nobles (and mages) receive a formal education.

If you wish to use Trig to chart a route, I'd allow it, but your character would need an appropraite resource for the knowledge which would also be represented by ranks in the appropraite knowledge skills.

And just for the record, the exististance of magic doesn't necciserily negate physics. The whole point of magic is that it breaks the laws of physics, so such laws will need to exist in the first place for magic to really have any relevence. In fact, in D'n'D, given the type of spell casting the game uses magic is very much like a science anyway. Each spell has set effects which are pretty precise. A fireball always affects a 20X20 space, regardless of the amount of oxegen or other substances in the air, a spell with a duration in minutes can be measured, and then the wizard can use that time reliably. If a wizard is able to throw a magic missile with 5 missiles, you know right away he is also capable of 5th level spells.

Doc Roc
2009-11-02, 03:08 PM
Basically, I allow none. My players range from computer scientists, to mech engineers, to quantum chemists, to art students, to undeclared college students.

Magic and physics mix incredibly poorly. Unless you want to run a hellacious version of hard sci-fantasy, I suggest you allow three axioms:

1) Rule of Cool.
2) A Wizard Did It.
3) The World Tends Away From Breaking.

bosssmiley
2009-11-02, 03:39 PM
Depends on how hard science the setting is supposed to be; what goes in one game might be slapped down in another. Consult your DM and see if your application of 21st century scientific knowledge passes the Eyebrow Test. ( :smallconfused: )

Fhaolan
2009-11-02, 03:40 PM
I prefer none. Because Applied Science depends on universal laws that are proven, time and time again, to not be universal laws in D&D campaigns.

The two examples given are navigating via trig and gunpowder.

Using trig to navigate depends on several factors that may or may not be true. You need to have the ability to accurately measure long distances and angles, both of which are unlikley without specialized tools. It depends on the world being reasonably spherical, rotating on a axis, with the stars being reasonably stable. It also depends on mathematical rules being the same as in RL, which isn't always a given. In a magical universe, it is entirely possible for the stars to little cosmic chariots being driven by drunk demigods who have forgotten the rules of the 'road' and randomly re-arrange every night. Given that one of the standard features of magic is that dimensional stability isn't guarenteed, with the concept of 'strange angles' that don't add up, it's doubtful that simple trig will make enough sense to help. It might, but it might not. You are just as likely to end up going in circles because something you *know* is true in RL, isn't in D&D. It's this kind of mess that keeps wizards employed.

Gunpowder is dead easy to make, if you know the tricks. However, given an alchemical-base universe, the precise mixture may not match the one in our universe. And even then, most people who think they know how to make gunpowder in RL really don't, or depend on being able to purchase clean components that do not require extensive purification. They will get a smoke screen at best, or blow their own hands up in the making of the stuff at worst. It's not the same procedure that Captain Kirk used in that old Star Trek episode. I've actually made black powder from raw materials I gathered myself. But then, I'm a Chemical Engineer and a hobby survivalist, so I put a lot of effort into learning how *before* I was put into a position that I needed to without having access to books, teachers, etc.

FMArthur
2009-11-02, 04:10 PM
What about using Pythagorean's Theorem to guage distance between diagonals OoC? The characters can guage the distance without it but the grid doesn't represent it all that well to players.

Ormur
2009-11-02, 04:22 PM
I'd allow basic applied sciences that it wouldn't be impossible for a character knowing if it made sense in the world. So if a player with a smart character came up with and described in detail a good way of navigating with the tools available I'd allow it as a reward. If he just said "I navigate the ship there" I'd ask for a "profession navigator" check.

Arguing for blackholes in the infinite elemental plains would be met with laughs and a ruling about physics not working that way in D&D.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-11-02, 05:28 PM
What about using Pythagorean's Theorem to guage distance between diagonals OoC? The characters can guage the distance without it but the grid doesn't represent it all that well to players.

Well, yeah. How else can you determine whether the flying beastie is in magic missile range? This is definitely ok. (And, of course, 4e killed off poor Pythagorus entirely.)

shadow_archmagi
2009-11-02, 05:43 PM
And just for the record, the exististance of magic doesn't necciserily negate physics. The whole point of magic is that it breaks the laws of physics, so such laws will need to exist in the first place for magic to really have any relevence. In fact, in D'n'D, given the type of spell casting the game uses magic is very much like a science anyway. Each spell has set effects which are pretty precise. A fireball always affects a 20X20 space, regardless of the amount of oxegen or other substances in the air, a spell with a duration in minutes can be measured, and then the wizard can use that time reliably. If a wizard is able to throw a magic missile with 5 missiles, you know right away he is also capable of 5th level spells.

Well, except for the part where in 4th edition, diagonals don't count as being extra long. Four squares diagonal is the same as four squares left. Meaning all sorts of sadnesses for geometry.

ericgrau
2009-11-02, 05:44 PM
Has anyone tried using real life scientific principles to solve d&d problems? For example, I'm stuck on an island, but we have a boat. Nobody here is a sailor, but we have an accurate map. Would it be too much to use trig to chart our path? Or figure out how to jerry-rig explosives out of naturally occurring materials?

1. Sailors actually did this. A major roll of light houses are to act as reference points for the trig. But do require appropriate knowledge rolls. Architecture & engineering would be closest, or profession(sailor).

2. This is harder than most people think. It makes my head hurt when people suggest plans to do it, then only worry about how it might break their game not how they have no idea what they're talking about. But if a player has enough alchemy ranks then do let them craft large amounts of alchemist fire or etc. Using alchemist fire as an example, this is likely possible given access to a sulfur mine, a large quantity of manure, fuel such as coal or wood (=> charcoal) or oil and a few weeks. And, yeah, the mine and manure have gp value even outside of alchemy so treat them like any treasure: probably pre-owned and something the PCs earn as appropriate for their ECL.

Otherwise the best you could do with cheap materials is spread some oil or w/e and start a nice big fire.

Feel free to fudge the details with pseudo-science as long as it's balanced.

Dragonmuncher
2009-11-02, 05:46 PM
As long as you don't try to combine science and magic, it's probably not a huge deal. Stuff like "I use Fireball to burn up all the oxygen in the small, sealed room so the ogre suffocates to death" gets ridiculous.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-02, 05:46 PM
Well, except for the part where in 4th edition, diagonals don't count as being extra long. Four squares diagonal is the same as four squares left. Meaning all sorts of sadnesses for geometry.

4e is a non-Euclidian universe.