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BRC
2009-11-02, 04:38 PM
So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.

For example, to go with the classic Mafia thug Image, I decided to give them Greatclubs. However, since at this stage in the game, pretty much every damage type directed at the PC's has no purpose beyond fluff, could I not stat them as having Greataxes and say they're just wielding big sticks or pipes or whatever?

Or, lets say I like the image of these thugs just beating the PC's up with their bare hands. Now, for obvious statistical reasons, I'm not going to stat them as fighting Unarmed, but could I stat them as using Greatclubs and say they are using their bare hands. It should be noted my PC's have yet to try to Disarm anything, and most of them arn't familiar enough with the rules to call me on much. But is it too much to say "The orc punches you really hard" then roll as if he just attacked with a Greatclub.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 04:42 PM
"This orc has custom feat: Punch like a Mother."

"He has a special club that deals different damage."

This doesn't even come close to crossing the line, dude. Go for it. :smallsmile:

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-02, 04:46 PM
So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.

For example, to go with the classic Mafia thug Image, I decided to give them Greatclubs. However, since at this stage in the game, pretty much every damage type directed at the PC's has no purpose beyond fluff, could I not stat them as having Greataxes and say they're just wielding big sticks or pipes or whatever?

Or, lets say I like the image of these thugs just beating the PC's up with their bare hands. Now, for obvious statistical reasons, I'm not going to stat them as fighting Unarmed, but could I stat them as using Greatclubs and say they are using their bare hands. It should be noted my PC's have yet to try to Disarm anything, and most of them arn't familiar enough with the rules to call me on much. But is it too much to say "The orc punches you really hard" then roll as if he just attacked with a Greatclub.

Nope. Go for it.

Eldan
2009-11-02, 04:52 PM
Generally, do whatever you want as long as mechanics aren't changed in a way that is unbalanced. As a DM, you can even slightly cross that line from time to time.
So, orks with improved natural attack (i.e. "punch like a mother") are totally okay.

GrassyGnoll
2009-11-02, 04:54 PM
Masterwork baseball bats with nails in them?
Masterwork ice picks?

I like ice picks. It makes a good front business.

lsfreak
2009-11-02, 04:54 PM
There is no such thing as too much refluffing.

Okay, I suppose you *might* be able to refluff something to the level of absurdity, but off the top of my head the only way you could actually do that is to directly contradict the crunch.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 05:15 PM
They shouldn't get weapon finesse or anything like that with their Greataxe Knuckles, but go for it. It's not like the PCs would need to loot the nonmagical axes anyway.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 05:18 PM
There is no such thing as too much refluffing.

Okay, I suppose you *might* be able to refluff something to the level of absurdity, but off the top of my head the only way you could actually do that is to directly contradict the crunch.
I definitely agree with lsfreak. Fluff is always and completely mutable.

ericgrau
2009-11-02, 05:26 PM
Thugs do not use clubs and fists in a time of open war. That is for beating the prisoners and the guy who won't pay up. What we have here is something "between" lethal and non-lethal damage: it takes a long time to heal but no limbs are severed. House rule it accordingly. IMO allow the attacker, at his option, to remove all chance of crits or fort saves. Then call it a day. But please don't send the thugs onto the streets with clubs and bare fists. That's when you break out the tommy guns, err I mean greatswords.

Harperfan7
2009-11-02, 05:28 PM
I wouldn't do that if I were you, but I'm a stickler for accruacy.
(Bwahahaha!)

deuxhero
2009-11-02, 05:32 PM
"This orc has custom feat: Punch like a Mother."

"He has a special club that deals different damage."

This doesn't even come close to crossing the line, dude. Go for it. :smallsmile:

The first is good, the second isn't. A feat can't be looted, a special club can.

BRC
2009-11-02, 05:37 PM
Thugs do not use clubs and fists in a time of open war. That is for beating the prisoners and the guy who won't pay up. What we have here is something "between" lethal and non-lethal damage: it takes a long time to heal but no limbs are severed. House rule it accordingly. IMO allow the attacker, at his option, to remove all chance of crits or fort saves. Then call it a day. But please don't send the thugs onto the streets with clubs and bare fists. That's when you break out the tommy guns, err I mean greatswords.
It's not at this point Open War, the PC's arn't another mafia, just visitors who happen to be trying to recover something the Mob wants for itself.
The first thugs they meet will just be on extortion duty, collecting "Docking Fees" from any ships who land at the port.

Later on, as they start facing less Street Muscle and more skilled enforcers and assassins, it won't be Clubs and Fists anymore.
But yeah, most of the Thugs they meet will be on "Look Scary Without attracting too much attention" duty.

AslanCross
2009-11-02, 05:40 PM
I totally agree that fluff is completely mutable. I avoid doing so, but if there are no viable options in the existing rules, I occasionally do this.

Defiant
2009-11-02, 06:34 PM
Definitely, go for it.

You see, back when I played a melee character, I wanted the weapon Dwarven Waraxe due to its properties, but I wanted a sword. So my DM let me have wield a bastard sword that actually cost as much and crit like a Dwarven Waraxe.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 07:30 PM
The first is good, the second isn't. A feat can't be looted, a special club can.

The variant isn't particularly powerful, so what's wrong with letting a player loot it?

Raum
2009-11-02, 07:44 PM
So, I'm working on an Adventure. In it the PC's will run afoul of the local Mob, which means they are going up against Thugs.
I'm statting these Thugs as Orc barbarians wielding Greatclubs.
However, some questions came to mind.You seem to be changing more than just 'fluf'...and when it comes to rules, don't change any you won't also let the PCs take advantage of. So unless you're willing to let the PCs pick up a pipe / feat / whatever and use it for great axe damage, don't do it yourself.

But that's not fluff...those are mechanics.

BRC
2009-11-02, 07:55 PM
You seem to be changing more than just 'fluf'...and when it comes to rules, don't change any you won't also let the PCs take advantage of. So unless you're willing to let the PCs pick up a pipe / feat / whatever and use it for great axe damage, don't do it yourself.

But that's not fluff...those are mechanics.

No, it's fluff, because for all statistical intents and purposes, they are using a Greatclub.

If a PC wants to do the same thing, I'd still charge them for the Greatclub, make them follow the same rules as if they were using a Greatclub, ect.

Yzzyx
2009-11-02, 08:03 PM
No amount of refluffing is too much refluffing.

What is being suggested involves a slight change in mechanics, however. For example, the punching orcs will probably be immune to disarm attempts, and the players will get fewer nonmagical greatclubs. These things are generally minor enough not to be a problem, however.

Riffington
2009-11-02, 09:34 PM
There are three types of refluffing. The first is when you, the DM, have a vision of your world that differs from the printed material. This is positive and encouraged. You are the one creating the world, not some rulebook. Changing the book's material to match your vision is absolutely appropriate and good.

The second is when the player wants to do the same thing. She has a vision of being from a nation of enslaved halflings (or whatever), and wants to work with you to create that part of the shared world. This is even better than type 1 if done right: there's nothing better than a world that the players and DM cooperate to create. If done poorly it's still basically ok, just can feel "tacked on".

The third is when the player has a mechanic he wants to use, but doesn't like the RP "baggage" that comes with it. Here, it may or may not be ok. You basically need to ask yourself to what extent that's "just a mechanic" and to what extent that's something that should stay tied to a particular tradition/class/history. Maybe you want a certain power to be unique to one group of people, and maybe you don't; figure out what it means to your particular campaign.

All the above also applies to changing mechanics to match your updated vision of the world. The crunch was written for one specific world vision, just like the "fluff" was. Some changes to the vision need not change that crunch, other changes virtually require it. Your crunch should make your world believable.

Count Dravda
2009-11-02, 10:19 PM
Sounds completely reasonable. You've thought it out, and the most significant factor changed is the inability to disarm, which, as you noted, your players don't try. The net effect sounds like a group of thugs that EXACTLY match your vision, both in flavor and mechanics.

DO IT.

-Count Dravda

Raum
2009-11-02, 10:27 PM
No, it's fluff, because for all statistical intents and purposes, they are using a Greatclub.

If a PC wants to do the same thing, I'd still charge them for the Greatclub, make them follow the same rules as if they were using a Greatclub, ect.Does it or does it not affect the rule mechanic of how much damage a particular object does? If it does, it's not "fluff".

Do note, I'm not against changing mechanics as well as fluff...as long as it's changed for everyone. The PCs should simply be able to pick up said pipe and do similar damage.

aje8
2009-11-02, 10:32 PM
No such thing as too much refluffing, as other have said.

Yeah..... this one isn't even debateable. You're abosutley in the clear. PC buying/looting a great club that looks different is fine.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 10:34 PM
I would prefer it if it was a custom creature that had tons of STR.

When you break the rules suspension of disbeleif breaks. If the orcs are just orcs and doing uncharistically high damage with their fists, something is wrong.

But on the other hand, if the "creatures" look "kinda like orcs, but not quite, they have glowing eyes, horns, and biceps twice as thick as your leg" and punch you for a ton of damage, "WOW THIS IS COOL!"
For extra cool, don't just hand out the knowledge of WHAT those are so they are forever a mystery...

That is, for it to be proper refluff you should refluff the cause, not just the damage.

Also, keep in mind that if you give an enemy a cool weapon, the PC's are gonna loot it off of his corpse, and will want it to work the same for themselves... (which is where very high strength comes to play; but you can just eschew it and make it have a custom feat or some other dice based damage... since STR is static damage, doing the same amount each hit)

RoninFrosty
2009-11-02, 10:50 PM
Does it or does it not affect the rule mechanic of how much damage a particular object does? If it does, it's not "fluff".

You're looking at it the wrong way. You're not taking the fluff and adding different mechanics...you're taking the mechanics and adding different fluff. Like say I want to wield a tree branch. I could write down the stats for a greatclub and subtract the amount of gold that a greatclub would cost, but ask the DM if, fluffwise, I could be wielding a treebranch.

On that note, I'm 100% cool with doing things like that. I think to a small degree with the whole "unable to disarm" thing you're treading on thin ice, but if you're upfront with your players that you might be making small tweaks, shouldn't be an issue, methinks.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 10:54 PM
If you want to wield a giant tree branch and make it a club, go for it.
If you want to say that same giant tree branch does 5d6 damage, then:
1. everyone will want to weild a tree branch.
2. you have recrunched a giant club, not refluffed it.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 10:57 PM
I would prefer it if it was a custom creature that had tons of STR.

When you break the rules suspension of disbeleif breaks. If the orcs are just orcs and doing uncharistically high damage with their fists, something is wrong.

I PUNCH LIKE A MOTHER... [Fighter, General]
Shut your mouth.
I'm only talking about: Shaft.
Prerequisites: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: Your unarmed attack deals damage as a greataxe of a size you can comfortably wield, except that this damage is bludgeoning.
Special: We can dig it.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 10:57 PM
Just assume they have greater mighty wallop cast on them before they leave for mafia-guard duty.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 11:01 PM
I PUNCH LIKE A MOTHER... [Fighter, General]
Shut your mouth.
I'm only talking about: Shaft.
Prerequisites: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: Your unarmed attack deals damage as a greataxe of a size you can comfortably wield, except that this damage is bludgeoning.
Special: We can dig it.

thats works... they take 3 feats to get this damage... not arbitrarily deciding they do it.
It is no different than my suggestion of "tons of strength" approach... both require it to be a fairly high level orc.
This costs them 3 feats. so they wouldn't be uncharacteristically powerful and you are out of fiatville of "most orcs are tough, these orcs are normal orcs, but are SUPER tough and do tons of damage with only 10HP".

Still would be nice to hear that they have huge biceps or otherwise tie it into the description. Although, it could just be magic.

Actually for all you know, they have been buffed up the wazoo and that is why they are doing so much damage (look for a wizard). But then, what happens when the players cast dispell on them because of such an assumption?

The idea basically is to distinguish what is fluff and what is crunch.

Dracomorph
2009-11-02, 11:05 PM
I like the idea, but I reccomend you give the unarmed dude some unique brass knuckles, and make them an exotic weapon he's proficient with. That way, you allow the PCs to disarm him if they think of it, give them an item they can sell if necessary, and allow things to function easily rules-wise.

Maybe some bagh-nakh.

http://therionarms.com/sold/com005c.jpg

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 11:07 PM
thats works... not that it really makes a difference compared with the "tons of strength" approach... both require it to be a fairly high level orc.
This costs them 3 feats. so they wouldn't be uncharacteristically powerful.

Still would be nice to hear that they have huge biceps or otherwise tie it into the description. Although, it could just be magic.

Actually for all you know, they have been buffed up the wazoo and that is why they are doing so much damage (look for a wizard). But then, what happens when the players cast dispell on them because of such an assumption?

Or, they just randomly got granted feats. Because the DM can do that as much as they can randomly grant str increases.

And hey, when you randomly grant feats, you don't have to give it a name. You just know you want them to be able to do X. Which is sort of how all the monsters are built.

And then, hey, why even bother making it a feat? Just say, "these orcs are different." Because that's all the DM has to do. And she or he is perfectly within their rights to do that.

RoninFrosty
2009-11-02, 11:09 PM
If you want to wield a giant tree branch and make it a club, go for it.
If you want to say that same giant tree branch does 5d6 damage, then:
1. everyone will want to weild a tree branch.
2. you have recrunched a giant club, not refluffed it.

To be fair, I did specifically state I'd be writing down the exact stats of the greatclub, and simply calling it a tree branch. Thus, I'd be refluffing it :P

taltamir
2009-11-02, 11:10 PM
Or, they just randomly got granted feats. Because the DM can do that as much as they can randomly grant str increases.

And hey, when you randomly grant feats, you don't have to give it a name. You just know you want them to be able to do X. Which is sort of how all the monsters are built.

And then, hey, why even bother making it a feat? Just say, "these orcs are different." Because that's all the DM has to do. And she or he is perfectly within their rights to do that.

to ensure you the DM know their CR. building them out properly helps you figure out what they are. that is, think of the source.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 11:13 PM
I like the idea, but I reccomend you give the unarmed dude some unique brass knuckles, and make them an exotic weapon he's proficient with. That way, you allow the PCs to disarm him if they think of it, give them an item they can sell if necessary, and allow things to function easily rules-wise.

Maybe some bagh-nakh.

http://therionarms.com/sold/com005c.jpg1D4 damage, arms & equipment guide.

:smalltongue:

Dracomorph
2009-11-02, 11:19 PM
1D4 damage, arms & equipment guide.

:smalltongue:

A&EG is 3.0, isn't it? So, you know, it doesn't count for anything ever so help me Glod.(You know, the dwarf with eyes like Gimlet's.)

(No, that wasn't a typo.)(Neither was the second bit)

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 11:22 PM
to ensure you the DM know their CR. building them out properly helps you figure out what they are. that is, think of the source.

CR is a crappy system anyway; a lot of DMs don't need it, and all three feats listed are weak for the level of investment required to get them. You originally said that it broke suspension of disbelief; how?

taltamir
2009-11-02, 11:24 PM
CR is a crappy system anyway; a lot of DMs don't need it, and all three feats listed are weak for the level of investment required to get them. You originally said that it broke suspension of disbelief; how?

I am honestly not sure what i was thinking.

Rettu Skcollob
2009-11-02, 11:27 PM
{Implying there is such a thing as too much refluffing}
http://i38.tinypic.com/ezphma.jpg

desmond1323
2009-11-02, 11:28 PM
Naw, this is all totally justified...and adds some versatility allowing for a more believable situation in what you're going for story-wise.

I'll actually keep this method for future reference, I think it's a great solution.


And @ AstralFire's feat, that is ridiculously funny.

BRC
2009-11-02, 11:38 PM
I think I'll go with giving the orcs Clubs and statting them as Axes. As cool as Punching would be, I have trouble with the idea of my orcs power attacking for 1d12+11 damage with their fists. If they were statted as using one handed weapons, maybe, but not 2 handers. I'll just give them Lead Pipes or Sledgehammers or something.'
If the Pc's want a 1d12 bludgeoning weapon, they can get one. I have no problem with that.

Edit: Maybe they'll start with 1d6 punches, then once they realize the PC's mean buisness and are tougher than your average shakedown targets, they'll go for the greatclubs.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 11:50 PM
ok I figured out what I was thinking...
You basically need some believable in game explanation as to how things happen. It is really mostly about the delivery.

The PCs know what an orc is, they know what a fist is, and they know it does less damage then a giant axe to the face.
Possible explanations are veried:
1. A special weapon (lootable, must work for PCs)
2. Magic buffs (dispellable, detectable, there is a caster in the guild, and it might be in his spellbook)
3. They are really high level (this means they should have a reputation... this is a famous guild, who has elite guards who are highly trained in unarmed combat)
4. They are not "quite" orcs.
5. Orcs in this world are different then the MM orcs (doesn't work if someone is playing an orc / half orc in the party, or if they have met them before, or if they don't have that ability when encountered IN THE FUTURE)
etc.

Basically:
1. Think of the reason why those creatures do what they do.
2. Be consistant
3. Present it in a believable way.

You can do anything as long as the above three are preserved.

Random low level mook orcs hitting like a truck when normal orcs don't? doesn't make sense... Orcs in this universe hitting like a truck? cool.
Random low level mooks hitting like a truck? doesn't make sense. Highly trained elite guard who have some renown (aka, high level)? must have specialized with unarmed weapons. cool!

etc.

BRC
2009-11-02, 11:52 PM
ok I figured out what I was thinking...
You basically need some believable in game explanation as to how things happen. It is really mostly about the delivery.

The PCs know what an orc is, they know what a fist is, and they know it does less damage then a giant axe to the face.
Possible explanations are veried:
1. A special weapon (lootable, must work for PCs)
2. Magic buffs (dispellable, detectable, there is a caster in the guild, and it might be in his spellbook)
3. They are really high level (this means they should have a name... this is a famous guild, who has elite guards who are highly trained in unarmed combat)
4. They are not "quite" orcs.
5. Orcs in this world are different then the MM orcs (doesn't work if someone is playing an orc / half orc in the party, or if they have met them before, or if they don't have that ability when encountered IN THE FUTURE)
etc.

Basically:
1. Think of the reason why those creatures do what they do.
2. Be consistant
3. Present it in a believable way.

Random low level mook orcs hitting like a truck when normal orcs don't? doesn't make sense... Orcs in this universe hitting like a truck? cool.
Random low level mooks hitting like a truck? doesn't make sense. Highly trained elite guard who have some renown? must be an unarmed swordsage or something. cool!

etc.
How about normal Orcs armed with Sledghammers hitting like a truck?
Later they may run into some superenforcer who just beats their faces in with his 1d12 bare hands, but for now, I'm going to give my orcs weapons.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 11:54 PM
If they ask you how, use my feat!

BRC
2009-11-02, 11:57 PM
If they ask you how, use my feat!
I'll say "He has the BAMF template".

People with that template get your feat for free.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 11:57 PM
it sounds great. the enforcer is obviously high level (aka, a "boss"). the sledge hammers are reasonable weapons. It is entirely reasonable for well armed low level mooks or a highly trained "boss" to hit like a truck.

Even fists can too, as long as it is consistent (aka, every orc in the world has really really strong punches; its just how orcs are in this world). Or they were buffed. Or this is the headquarters of a really powerful guild, there are no low ranked mooks in it.

I am not saying "don't have fists that hit for tons of damage". I am saying that if you do have such fists, there should be a reason. And "it is the headquarters of a powerful organization" is a fairly good reason.

If I jumped a tiny two bit gang that has only a dozen members, no money, no power, no fame, are of a "normal" race, and they have no weapons, and no magic, and no training. I would find it jarring if they presented any sort of challenge "just because".
But as long as there is justification, you can refluff them as much as you want and it will actually be cool to face such opponents. It is all in the presentation.

BRC
2009-11-03, 12:06 AM
it sounds great. the enforcer is obviously high level (aka, a "boss"). the sledge hammers are reasonable weapons. It is entirely reasonable for well armed low level mooks or a highly trained "boss" to hit like a truck.
Even fists can too, as long as it is consistent (aka, every orc in the world has really really strong punches; its just how orcs are in this world). Or they were buffed. Or this is the headquarters of a really powerful guild, there are no low ranked mooks in it.
I am not saying "don't have fists that hit for tons of damage". I am saying that if you do have such fists, there should be a reason. And "it is the headquarters of a powerful organization" is a fairly good reason.
Yeah, that's why I'm going with lead pipes/sledgehammers. As cool as the idea of my Orcish Thugs beating people down with their bare fists, it brings up too many consistency issues. Every time I use Orcs, I'll need to answer why they don't use their Greataxe Fists, and these orcs are standard low-level mob goons, so I can't justify them having any sort of Supermagic or training. I'll definitely do it with an Enforcer though, especially if said enforcer is an Ogre.

Iamyourking
2009-11-03, 05:57 AM
The way I'd do it is have their unarmed attacks take the form of magical tattoos on their knuckles they give their fists incredible striking power, maybe 1d8 1handed weapons. That way, you give the players a memorable encounter but they can't loot the weapons. If they really like the idea of it, they can go track down the person who creates the tattoos and get some of their own; giving you sidequest material to work off of and a cool trait for the characters who get it. It could be a nice way to allow a monk to keep up in damage.

Preemptive statement: I'm not interested in talking about monk damage, it was just a suggestion.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-03, 06:17 AM
http://i38.tinypic.com/ezphma.jpg

Where did you took this picture of Massimo D'Alema?

Merk
2009-11-03, 09:18 AM
Refluffing is the lifeblood of my campaign right now. Some of the better ones I or my players have used throughout this campaign:

- Yo-yo (Bludgeoning-type spiked chain)
- Chakrams (Short swords)
- A giant pickle; big wooden paddles (Bludgeoning-type Great Axes/Swords)
- Bananas launched from a barrel on a stick (Eldritch Blast)

Wulfram
2009-11-03, 10:08 AM
You're the DM, so there's no need for refluffing, you can just cheat.

It would, IMO, be better to give them a straight bonus to damage - or if you prefere, boost their strength - rather than change the dice, since the players will quite possibly notice you using the wrong dice and think they're fighting monks or something, whereas if they're just putting out lots of damage they'll just think that these guys hit hard

Dracomorph
2009-11-03, 10:56 AM
- A giant pickle; big wooden paddles (Bludgeoning-type Great Axes/Swords)
- Bananas launched from a barrel on a stick (Eldritch Blast)

I am unsure whether this means there's a food fight, or you're just RPing through Donkey Kong Country.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 12:10 PM
ok I figured out what I was thinking...
You basically need some believable in game explanation as to how things happen. It is really mostly about the delivery.

The PCs know what an orc is, they know what a fist is, and they know it does less damage then a giant axe to the face.
Possible explanations are veried:
1. A special weapon (lootable, must work for PCs)
2. Magic buffs (dispellable, detectable, there is a caster in the guild, and it might be in his spellbook)
3. They are really high level (this means they should have a reputation... this is a famous guild, who has elite guards who are highly trained in unarmed combat)
4. They are not "quite" orcs.
5. Orcs in this world are different then the MM orcs (doesn't work if someone is playing an orc / half orc in the party, or if they have met them before, or if they don't have that ability when encountered IN THE FUTURE)
etc.

Basically:
1. Think of the reason why those creatures do what they do.
2. Be consistant
3. Present it in a believable way.

You can do anything as long as the above three are preserved.

Random low level mook orcs hitting like a truck when normal orcs don't? doesn't make sense... Orcs in this universe hitting like a truck? cool.
Random low level mooks hitting like a truck? doesn't make sense. Highly trained elite guard who have some renown (aka, high level)? must have specialized with unarmed weapons. cool!

etc.

This is an awful approach and directly responsible for why 3e is full of overpowered casters. While the old guard of WotC game designers would agree with you, they're also the asshats who gave us crap like monks, fighters, druids, and the PHB spells.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-03, 12:26 PM
Could you elaborate, please? I feel that this is a theory it would be useful to know, but I'm having difficulty connecting the logical dots.

Myou
2009-11-03, 12:38 PM
Pfffft, who says the DM has to create foes that follow the monster manual? I make tuff up on the fly. As long as you obey the game mechanics, it couldn't matter less if you, in your case, give some orcs the ability to do weapon damage unarmed, or in my case, make up new ablities on the spot because the battle is going too easily.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 12:42 PM
Could you elaborate, please? I feel that this is a theory it would be useful to know, but I'm having difficulty connecting the logical dots.

The idea that if X1 is weak, then all forms of Xn must also be weak. I hate it so much.

Why can't some group of big, burly, well trained bruiser orcs be exceptionally good at cracking heads? Why do we need some special explanation, other than they're really nasty & brutal? It's the same sort of thinking that "well, a sword isn't as cool as magic, therefore wizards are more powerful than fighters."

BRC
2009-11-03, 01:28 PM
Why can't some group of big, burly, well trained bruiser orcs be exceptionally good at cracking heads? Why do we need some special explanation, other than they're really nasty & brutal? It's the same sort of thinking that "well, a sword isn't as cool as magic, therefore wizards are more powerful than fighters."
They could be. I could easily have my orcs punch for 2d6 damage and call it a refluff. At this point, it makes sense for the orcs to use their bare hands. The problem is, what happens later, when it makes sense for the Orcs to be wielding weapons. So, my unarmed thugs are hitting for 1d12 with their bare hands. Later on, the Pc's run into some thugs armed for bear with all sorts of nasty weapons, that also hit for 1d12.
Unless I want all Orcs in my setting to punch like they are wielding a greataxe, I need a reason why these orcs hit so hard. They arn't high enough in the Mob's organization to justify some sort of magic to achieve something they could do by simply arming their goons.
I think I will give these orcs a nasty unarmed attack (1d6, I'll say that have Brass Knuckles), which they will start with. The Sledgehammers come out when things get serious. Once the Thugs realize the PC's can handle themselves in a fight, they stop playing around.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 01:37 PM
No amount of refluffing is too much refluffing.

What is being suggested involves a slight change in mechanics, however. For example, the punching orcs will probably be immune to disarm attempts, and the players will get fewer nonmagical greatclubs. These things are generally minor enough not to be a problem, however.

Solvable by giving them locked gauntlets.

Pika...
2009-11-03, 01:40 PM
Thugs do not use clubs and fists in a time of open war. That is for beating the prisoners and the guy who won't pay up. What we have here is something "between" lethal and non-lethal damage: it takes a long time to heal but no limbs are severed. House rule it accordingly. IMO allow the attacker, at his option, to remove all chance of crits or fort saves. Then call it a day. But please don't send the thugs onto the streets with clubs and bare fists. That's when you break out the tommy guns, err I mean greatswords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqxo1SKB0z8

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

oxybe
2009-11-03, 01:55 PM
as a man who's put orcs in ogre's clothing, i approve you choice to refluff.

Indon
2009-11-03, 02:05 PM
Refluffing levels are entirely dependent on what you want in your campaign.

For instance, you can have a lead pipe do however much damage you want. You could have a thug wield a dagger and do Greatclub damage, whatever you want.

But if you face your players against a guy wielding a dagger that hits like a Greatclub, they'll know they can no longer trust a dagger to be any different than a greatclub.

The type of weapons you describe future opponents as wielding will no longer provide meaningful information to your players. Will that club do club damage? Maybe, or maybe you're treating it as a Spiked Chain, making it a reach weapon. That little bunny rabbit? Might deal more damage than anything the players are wielding.

I feel that excessive divorce of fluff and crunch removes meaning from the fluff, making your players less likely to care. If they can't interact meaningfully with your descriptions, why would they want to pay attention to them?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-03, 02:13 PM
The idea that if X1 is weak, then all forms of Xn must also be weak. I hate it so much.

Why can't some group of big, burly, well trained bruiser orcs be exceptionally good at cracking heads? Why do we need some special explanation, other than they're really nasty & brutal?It's fine, as long as these guys make sense having special training(which this DM has implied they don't) and players can get similar training(generally represented by feats or class levels). If I'm understanding correctly, the OP plans to give them brass knuckles to boost the damage, which is reasonable IMHO. Orcs that deal more damage because of awesome aren't.
It's the same sort of thinking that "well, a sword isn't as cool as magic, therefore wizards are more powerful than fighters."I don't see how that follows at all.

Also, +1 to TalTamir's:
Basically:
1. Think of the reason why those creatures do what they do.
2. Be consistent
3. Present it in a believable way.Some refluffing and restating is fine, some isn't(primarily because it violates #3). Lead Pipes that hit like Greatclubs are reasonable. Board with nails that deals Greatclub damage, but piercing, is reasonable. Greatclub that deals slashing with no other explanation isn't.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 02:27 PM
It's too much refluffing when the world doesn't behave consistently any more. If the thugs hit hard, there needs to be a reason for it.
Lots of Strength, which means all weapons will hit hard.
Special weapons, which the PCs could also obtain.
Training,such as Weapon Specialization.
Now, you can do some refluffing to make this work with the existing rules, and that's fine. So the thugs have the equivalent of brass knuckles, but they're in the form of lead shot-loaded gloves so the weapon isn't apparent. And maybe the gloves need special fitting to let the PCs use them, plus an exotic weapon proficiency. This explains why the bad guys hit hard, but the PCs can't disarm them and get the same benefits from those weapons.

More than that and you'll convince the players that you're out to get them by having different rules for how they and their enemies behave in combat. That's just mean.

Random832
2009-11-03, 02:42 PM
Who cares about dice damage? Just give them really high STR, and maybe improved unarmed strike, if you want to say "they're really good at cracking heads". If that's not enough, just give them arbitrarily bigger unarmed damage dice like the monk.

Weimann
2009-11-03, 02:53 PM
Okay, so here's a hypothetical question.

Let's say I have a player who wishes to gain access to the stats of a Greataxe, and he has everything required to wield it. However, he is a sword fanatic, and therefore wants it to be a bastard sword instead. That would be a refluff, and I don't see any problem with it.

Now, however, he wants his Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword to apply to it.

Should the new fluff then sate the prerequisites?

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 02:56 PM
No; the sword is obviously weighted differently from a standard bastard sword. However, I am a fan of allowing characters to retrain, soooooo.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 02:58 PM
Okay, so here's a hypothetical question.

Let's say I have a player who wishes to gain access to the stats of a Greataxe, and he has everything required to wield it. However, he is a sword fanatic, and therefore wants it to be a bastard sword instead. That would be a refluff, and I don't see any problem with it.

Now, however, he wants his Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword to apply to it.

Should the new fluff then sate the prerequisites?Sure. Weapon focus sucks anyway.

BlackSheep
2009-11-03, 03:02 PM
Okay, so here's a hypothetical question.

Let's say I have a player who wishes to gain access to the stats of a Greataxe, and he has everything required to wield it. However, he is a sword fanatic, and therefore wants it to be a bastard sword instead. That would be a refluff, and I don't see any problem with it.

Now, however, he wants his Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword to apply to it.

Should the new fluff then sate the prerequisites?

Is he trying to game the system to get something he doesn't deserve? If he just wants to wield a weapon with the stats of a greataxe and wants to take a feat that makes him better at using that weapon, then what you call that feat matters as little as what you call the greataxe. If you can refluff the axe to call it a sword, you can refluff the weapon focus to apply to that "sword".

If he wants to be able to switch between his not-greataxe and an actual bastard sword at will, then he's being tricksy. To remove ambiguity, give the not-greataxe a new name and if he wants his current feat to apply to it, let him retrain that feat to only apply to his special weapon.

Choco
2009-11-03, 03:02 PM
Who cares about dice damage? Just give them really high STR, and maybe improved unarmed strike, if you want to say "they're really good at cracking heads". If that's not enough, just give them arbitrarily bigger unarmed damage dice like the monk.

This is what I usually do. However, don't ever show the stats to your players unless you sure they wont get pissy. Some players get annoyed that they are limited to, for example, a 25 point buy with 1 rankup every 4 levels, while some NPC has stats that would have ammounted to a 50 point buy (all this is before magic item and inherent bonuses of course).

Random832
2009-11-03, 03:18 PM
Well really it amounts to cheating the players out of their XP and treasure, if you give the monsters stuff that A) makes them more powerful than they should be for their CR B) in the form of stuff that the players can't loot from them. So, yeah, if they have higher strength, they should be higher CR (and again, have more treasure)

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 03:19 PM
Well really it amounts to cheating the players out of their XP and treasure, if you give the monsters stuff that A) makes them more powerful than they should be for their CR B) in the form of stuff that the players can't loot from them. So, yeah, if they have higher strength, they should be higher CR (and again, have more treasure)

I find the game is a lot easier to control at lower WBL.

Random832
2009-11-03, 03:22 PM
I find the game is a lot easier to control at lower WBL.

Doesn't lower WBL also make it further unbalanced in favor of casters, though?

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-03, 04:12 PM
Who cares about dice damage? Just give them really high STR, and maybe improved unarmed strike, if you want to say "they're really good at cracking heads". If that's not enough, just give them arbitrarily bigger unarmed damage dice like the monk.

The issue with the str thing, imo, is that it means instead of 1-12 damage, they do 12-13.

Random832
2009-11-03, 04:21 PM
The issue with the str thing, imo, is that it means instead of 1-12 damage, they do 12-13.

Huh? I was talking about for when they're unarmed (as in, _actually_ unarmed, not wielding invisible greataxes).

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 04:24 PM
Doesn't lower WBL also make it further unbalanced in favor of casters, though?

In a vacuum, yes. A hefty ban stick on the spell list + high reluctance to use anything outside of core for spells (I do not want to flip through seven books - yes, I know core has the most broken spells of any single book, but the more options you add, the more power casters get, especially divine ones) + stringent crafting rules + tight leash on spells learned (not giving them scrolls as treasure) does wonders.

Also, what treasure I do give tends to benefit melee more. I've never ever given a pearl of power, or a candle of invocation, or beads of karma.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 04:27 PM
Huh? I was talking about for when they're unarmed (as in, _actually_ unarmed, not wielding invisible greataxes).
increasing strength is a static bonus, whereas changing 1D3 to 1D12 is a variable bonus. I, personally, was operating under the assumption that you just meant to give them ~+5/6 to damage via strength rather than +12.

Random832
2009-11-03, 04:30 PM
increasing strength is a static bonus, whereas changing 1D3 to 1D12 is a variable bonus. I, personally, was operating under the assumption that you just meant to give them ~+5/6 to damage via strength rather than +12.

Well, changing from 1d3 to 1d12 is only a +4.5 _average_ bonus. Which, in terms of what effect you actually want it to have on the fight, I don't see the problem with using a static bonus instead of a 'variable bonus'. Flavor-wise why shouldn't they hit for a consistent amount of damage?

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 04:33 PM
Well, changing from 1d3 to 1d12 is only a +4.5 _average_ bonus. Which, in terms of what effect you actually want it to have on the fight, I don't see the problem with using a static bonus instead of a 'variable bonus'. Flavor-wise why shouldn't they hit for a consistent amount of damage?Like I said, I think he was just misunderstanding that you meant only increase it to the average damage increase, rather than the maximum.

BRC
2009-11-03, 07:34 PM
In a vacuum, yes. A hefty ban stick on the spell list + high reluctance to use anything outside of core for spells (I do not want to flip through seven books - yes, I know core has the most broken spells of any single book, but the more options you add, the more power casters get, especially divine ones) + stringent crafting rules + tight leash on spells learned (not giving them scrolls as treasure) does wonders.

Also, what treasure I do give tends to benefit melee more. I've never ever given a pearl of power, or a candle of invocation, or beads of karma.
Meh, If I'm worried about them falling behind because they don't find the 10g greatclubs, I'll say the thugs had fancy rings or somthing.

Random832
2009-11-03, 11:37 PM
It's not 10gp greatclubs per se, it's the fact that they can't be disarmed and are doing greatclub damage.

sonofzeal
2009-11-03, 11:56 PM
It's not 10gp greatclubs per se, it's the fact that they can't be disarmed and are doing greatclub damage.
Is disarm really that common?

Kylarra
2009-11-04, 12:20 AM
It's not 10gp greatclubs per se, it's the fact that they can't be disarmed and are doing greatclub damage.
Sunder his hand! :smalltongue:

Rettu Skcollob
2009-11-04, 12:41 AM
Where did you took this picture of Massimo D'Alema?


http://i33.tinypic.com/24depzm.jpg
No idea, but I got a ton of them

Fax Celestis
2009-11-04, 01:10 AM
It's not 10gp greatclubs per se, it's the fact that they can't be disarmed and are doing greatclub damage.

I also can not be disarmed and get greatclub damage from a locked gauntlet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#gauntletLocked). Locked Gauntlet + 2 handed weapon = +14 on my defensive disarm check. Good luck.

Random832
2009-11-04, 09:28 AM
I also can not be disarmed and get greatclub damage from a locked gauntlet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#gauntletLocked). Locked Gauntlet + 2 handed weapon = +14 on my defensive disarm check. Good luck.

A locked gauntlet takes a full round action to begin or end using a weapon, and (it or the weapon) can still be sundered.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-04, 11:35 AM
A locked gauntlet takes a full round action to begin or end using a weapon, and (it or the weapon) can still be sundered.

...assuming you're not already holding the weapon, sure. When was the last time you saw someone sunder? And further, if he uses brass knuckles, is there a particular reason those should even be disarmable?

Eorran
2009-11-04, 02:26 PM
Refluffing levels are entirely dependent on what you want in your campaign...

That little bunny rabbit? Might deal more damage than anything the players are wielding.

I feel that excessive divorce of fluff and crunch removes meaning from the fluff, making your players less likely to care. If they can't interact meaningfully with your descriptions, why would they want to pay attention to them?

I'll agree here. However much you want to change the fluff is fine, as long as the players can use your descriptions to reasonably interpret the world. Re-fluffing shouldn't be a trap to fool the PCs - they depend on the DM to give them enough data to make meaningful choices.

However, you should always, ALWAYS fear the little bunny rabbit. Especially if an enchanter has warned you first. :smallwink:

ashmanonar
2009-11-04, 02:38 PM
Just give the thugs an ability called "The Kirk Maneuver".

They can make unarmed attacks by balling both fists together and smashing them down on their enemies, thus gaining standard 2h weapon bonuses to damage from strength.

Or cheat. Just don't tell your players, or let them see the stats. If they're missing out on possible loot from there not being weapons they can use, just compensate it in some other way. Use that as a quest hook.

BRC
2009-11-04, 02:40 PM
I'll agree here. However much you want to change the fluff is fine, as long as the players can use your descriptions to reasonably interpret the world. Re-fluffing shouldn't be a trap to fool the PCs - they depend on the DM to give them enough data to make meaningful choices.

However, you should always, ALWAYS fear the little bunny rabbit. Especially if an enchanter has warned you first. :smallwink:

Well yeah, of course.
If I tell the PC's they are approached by a group of tough looking orcs,cracking their knuckles and generally looking like they are about to tear the PC's faces off, the PC's know that the Orcs are a threat.
Now, where things would get tricky, is if I specified that some of the Orcs were wielding weapons while others were not, while statting them all the same.
The PC's will probably prioritize the Orc with the sledgehammer over the one with his bare fists (or vice-versa, if they think I am up to somthing).
Same if I throw out 2 orcs wearing ragged leather armor, one orc in well crafted full plate wielding what appears to be an axe made out of pure chaos, but stat them all the same.