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industrious
2009-11-02, 04:50 PM
No, no, this is not another 3.5 vs. 4e thread. To begin, everybody currently in my campaign, DO NOT READ WHAT'S IN THE SPOILERS!


So, of the course of my (3.5) campaign, I'm going to be sending the PCs into the Far Realm to save the Great Wheel. Problem is, once they (hopefully) return triumphant, the world will have changed before them(into 4e). In my setting, this is due to Asmodeus ascending to godhood. My question is how can one balance encounters between editions? I can't convert them to 4e, partially because the change isn't going to be described as such, and partially because they're all using homebrewed classes.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 04:51 PM
Tome of Battle is the closest you can get to 4E ideas in a 3E package. I suggest using those classes as the basis.

FoE
2009-11-02, 04:53 PM
My suggestion is not to do it at all.

If the characters aren't going to be converted to 4E, then why bother making the switch? Why not just stick with a 3.5E world ruled over by Asmodeus? You're just creating a giant headache for yourself.

Ichneumon
2009-11-02, 04:53 PM
I suggest using monsters and building encounters in such a way they behave similar to 4e, so a lot of teleporting and battle field control. For balance, like mentioned before, use ToB-like stuff.

industrious
2009-11-02, 04:58 PM
My suggestion is not to do it at all.

If the characters aren't going to be converted to 4E, then why bother making the switch? Why not just stick with a 3.5E world ruled over by Asmodeus? You're just creating a giant headache for yourself.

The idea is that the world has changed; radically so. The PCs are going to stick out like sore thumbs; they're the remnants of a forgotten age. They'll arrive back, and wonder what happened in their absence, why everything's changed. It's like the Emperor Joker storyline in Superman before the big reveal, nobody knew what was going on.

jmbrown
2009-11-02, 04:58 PM
4E monsters would rape 3E players. On average they have higher hp, near unlimited abilities, and pretty much every ability carries an effect.

There's no need to switch to 4E unless you're going all the way. WotC aren't going to kick down your door with an army of lawyers because you decided Asmodeus took over your game world.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 04:59 PM
On the one hand, you can make numerous inside jokes by mixing the rules, if your campaign is at least mildly tongue-in-cheek.

On the other hand, balance? Any moderate to high level 3E party is going to royally curb-stomp anything in 4E epic tier. Given how 4E was designed to emulate level 5-10 of 3E, it has no answer to the spells and power combos that appear at 3E's higher levels.

Person_Man
2009-11-02, 05:00 PM
I agree with Face Of Evil that you should pick an edition you like and stay with it. Nothing is gained from a fluff point of view by forcing a bunch of your friends to learn a new set of rules. And from a crunch point of view, the two systems are entirely incompatible. It's as if someone read an outline of 3rd ed (ok, here's a list of classes, and we're supposed to roll a d20) to make 4ed.

FoE
2009-11-02, 05:01 PM
The idea is that the world has changed; radically so. The PCs are going to stick out like sore thumbs; they're the remnants of a forgotten age. They'll arrive back, and wonder what happened in their absence, why everything's changed. It's like the Emperor Joker storyline in Superman before the big reveal, nobody knew what was going on.

So change the flavour, not the rules.

I'm telling you this isn't going to work, the other people in the thread are telling you this isn't going to work and that knock you hear at your door is Gary Gygax having just descended from heaven to tell you this isn't going to work.

Mongoose87
2009-11-02, 05:02 PM
Maybe if everything's switched over to 4E fluff (ie Lizard boobs) this could be good, but the rulesets aren't especially compatible, as everyone's pointed out.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 05:04 PM
4E monsters would rape 3E players. On average they have higher hp, near unlimited abilities, and pretty much every ability carries an effect.

This is funny.

Who cares about HP when you've got save-or-dies? Who cares about "unlimited" abilities that recharge one round out of six, when combat lasts three rounds or less? Who cares about "abilities with an effect" when you've got blinking, true mirror image, and an AC in the stratosphere?

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-02, 05:09 PM
Eh, yeah. It'd be pretty difficult, in general. Basically, It'd be easiest just to 'technically' leave it in the 3.5 edition, and simply switch over fluffwise entirely to the 4e cosmology etc when they return.

Then simply build and play npc's loosely as if they were, infact, in 4th ed. So no 'running out of spells' and Melee fighters capable of locking people down, etc etc. Also, Dragons loose Spellcasting, but become absolutely monstrous powerhouses.

Stuff like that, really.

(Oh, and NPC's should move over to the condensed skill-list)

industrious
2009-11-02, 05:12 PM
They really don't have access to any of the big save-or die effects. At 10th level, the highest level spells they'll be able to cast, failing UMD, is a limited selection of 3rd level spells.

Tiki_Snakes: thanks. But what about monsters?

jmbrown
2009-11-02, 05:18 PM
This is funny.

Who cares about HP when you've got save-or-dies? Who cares about "unlimited" abilities that recharge one round out of six, when combat lasts three rounds or less? Who cares about "abilities with an effect" when you've got blinking, true mirror image, and an AC in the stratosphere?

It all depends on how you do the conversion but even using 4E vs. 3E rules the 4th ed monsters have the advantage. 10 or better saves meaning I have more than a 50% chance to survive against any spell or effect such as turn undead which is way better than against even the most pimped out 3E character vs. 3E monster. Or you could assume a monster's defenses is equal to its saving throw and they pretty much can't fail at all. Maybe you could say a monster's defenses minus 10 is equal to his saving throw but even then a 1st level character has 3E converted saves between 4 and 6 for every save.

4E monsters have free action, move action, and minor action (swift in 3E?) attacks. They have interrupts and reactional attacks. Three rounds to them is 6 rounds to a 3E character.

Blinking? Mirror Image? High AC? How's that going to stop attacks with area effects, instant hit attacks, auras and automatic effects? You're standing next to me thus you instantly take damage and are automatically slowed, no save. I use an attack on you, even if it misses you take half damage, no save, and lose all beneficial effects. I'm now bloodied I regenerate all of my powers and use them instantly.

You can't safely convert the systems. They're entirely different. Introducing 4E mechanics in a 3E world is going to be both mechanically broken and an absolute nightmare for the DM and (more importantly) the people playing.

Unless the game were humorous from the get go I'd probably quit immediately.

FoE
2009-11-02, 05:30 PM
Just because Kefka took over the world in Final Fantasy VI (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinalFantasyVI) doesn't mean the game suddenly switched over to Breath of Fire (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreathOfFire).

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 05:40 PM
4E monsters have free action, move action, and minor action (swift in 3E?) attacks. They have interrupts and reactional attacks. Three rounds to them is 6 rounds to a 3E character.
Woo, I'm scared now. Compare that to what characters are capable of in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216), and bear in mind that said thread has a nine page BAN list to weed out the strongest things from 3E.


You're standing next to me thus you instantly take damage and are automatically slowed, no save.
For instance, this. Why on earth would I be standing next to you? In 4E, 20 squares is considered long range, and is a rarity for most classes. In 3E, a simple longbow or a fireball have ten times that range. And that's just the appetizer. Seriously, don't think a balanced game designed to fit level 5-10 of 3E can hold a candle to what an optimized 3E character of levels 13-20 can do. They're not even in the same ballpark.

Sir Homeslice
2009-11-02, 05:50 PM
Maybe if everything's switched over to 4E fluff (ie Lizard boobs)

Clever and oh so ridicuously funny. You are a paragon of wit.

jmbrown
2009-11-02, 05:52 PM
Woo, I'm scared now. Compare that to what characters are capable of in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216), and bear in mind that said thread has a nine page BAN list to weed out the strongest things from 3E.


For instance, this. Why on earth would I be standing next to you? In 4E, 20 squares is considered long range, and is a rarity for most classes. In 3E, a simple longbow or a fireball have ten times that range. And that's just the appetizer. Seriously, don't think a balanced game designed to fit level 5-10 of 3E can hold a candle to what an optimized 3E character of levels 13-20 can do. They're not even in the same ballpark.

Why do you keep calling this level 5-10 3E? You're dealing with creatures with initiative in the upper teens, the lowest level paragon tier monsters have AC in the upper 30s, defenses in the upper 20s, and abilities designed to hound the player (attack hits - instant trip - instant grapple - drags you across the map). 4E's combat is designed around large groups of foes or single tough monsters nearly invulnerable to everything. You run out of your daily powers in 3E and its off to the camp sight to rest. Monsters don't have dailies like PCs do so they can literally move at will. The only cost for a spell like planeshift is a handful of gold, not a precious spell slot.

Shoot, someone do a conversion for 3E to 4E. I have to see this now.

ericgrau
2009-11-02, 06:22 PM
Just let them remake their characters from scratch. But with some vague crunch similarities to the originals, and all the same fluff. You already provided the "it's magic" explanation, it's easy from here.

jmbrown
2009-11-02, 07:04 PM
Alright industrious, I'm going to try a quick and clean conversion guide for 4E to 3.5E.

-Ignore minions, elites, solos. They don't work within the structure of 3E.

Hp: Hit dice equal the monster's level +1.

AC: remains the same. Subtract 10, dex bonus, and any penalties from size the AC to determine a monster's bonuses to AC (natural armor, magic items, etc.)

Saving throws: Based on his racial type.

Initiative: now equal to the monster's dexteririty modifier.

Base attack bonus: Based on the monster's type in 3E's MM.

Grapple: Equal to the monster's base attack + strength modifier.

Skills: Choose a number of skills equal to the base skill points granted by the monster's type + intelligence mod. Skill bonus is equal to 5 + half monster's hit dice + modifiers.

Save DC for powers: Depends on the ability used. Reflex powers are dexterity or intelligence based, fortitude powers are constitution or strength based, and will powers are wisdom or charisma based.

Increased range: Compare ranges to similar powers in 3E. For example, a medium range power in 4E is 10 squares whereas converted it would be 100 + 10 per level in feet.

Challenge Rating: The most difficult thing to determine. 4E assumes a party of 5 characters and a "difficult" encounter involves creatures up to 3-4 levels higher than the party average. A good indication of challenge rating is the monster's 4E level minus 3.

This is pretty rough but lets see what I get when I transfer the 4E Chuul into a 3E Chuul. I dropped all abilities for the 3E Chuul that also weren't shared by the 4E Chuul. Abilities granted by type such as determing base attack was using 3E rules.

Chuul
Large Aberration (Aquatic)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30' Swim: 30'
AC: 27 (-1 size, +3 dex, +13 natural armor) touch 12, flat footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+18
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +13 melee (2d6+6) plus Tentacles +10 (see text)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Tentacle Net
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +12
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 4, Wis 18, Cha 14
Skills: Hide +13, Swim +11, Listen +11, Spot +11
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Environment: Temperate Marshes
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 7
Alignment: Usually Neutral

Paralytic Tentacle

Creatures struck by a chuul's tentacles must succeed on a DC 20 fortitude check or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. A chuul's claw attack deals 3d6+6 damage against paralyzed creatures.

Tentacle Net

A creature hit by a chuul's attack of opportunity is dragged into its tentacles and must succeed on a DC 20 fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1 round.

Amphibious (Ex)
Although chuuls are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land.

Skills
A chuul has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

-----------------------------------

I think this is a pretty decent conversion. The 4E Chuul is stronger albeit dumber although this is likely because of the way 4E groups defense (a 3.5 chuul has 5 charisma and 10 intelligence so swapping the two for the 4E chuul would actually make sense but I didn't do it for posterity reasons). If I did give him the 14 intelligence, increase swim, spot, and listen by +5. The 4E chuul sacrifices his grapple for extra power, reach, and a tentacle attack that's synergistic with his combat reflexes.

He's an appropriate challenge for his CR. Of course, compared to any gish or heavily optimized character he'll go down without a problem. Nothing's changed here.

Hope this helps, industrious. If you want to see what I did in more detail I'll be willing to point it out.

industrious
2009-11-02, 09:00 PM
jmbrown: Thank you; that's exactly what I'm looking for; different but still similar, and a savvy player can tell that it's 4e. Would you mind if we went over the process again in greater detail so that I can understand it better?

jmbrown
2009-11-02, 09:32 PM
jmbrown: Thank you; that's exactly what I'm looking for; different but still similar, and a savvy player can tell that it's 4e. Would you mind if we went over the process again in greater detail so that I can understand it better?

Size and type remain the same. Some types no longer exist in 4E (for example, outsider) so either cross reference the creature with its 3.5 version or use common sense.

Hit dice is equal to the creature's level + 1. Cross reference the creature's type with 3rd edition rules to get their exact hit dice (a chuul's an aberration so he uses d8). I added an extra hit die because monsters in 4th ed are based on low damage, high hp formula.

Initiative is equal to the dexterity modifier as normal.

Speed remains the same. Just multiply squares by 5 to get the conversion in feet.

Armor class remains the same. To determine how much of the armor class consists of bonuses (for determining touch and flat-footed) subtract it by 10, any size modifiers and dexterity modifier. The resulting number you can use to determine how much of their AC is natural/armor/deflection/etc.

Base attack and grapple are determined by the monster's type and their hit dice. You can calculate their total attack bonus and full attack from this.

Space and reach remain the same as in 4E.

Special attacks is where things get tricky and require the most DM work. Some powers end on the opponents turn or your turn. A good rule of thumb for durations for special attacks is a single die +1 usually 1d4+1.

Special qualities are determined by the monster's type.

Saves are also determined by the monster's type.

Ability scores remain the same. Monsters in 4E typically have balanced ability scores because of the way defenses are paired. If something doesn't look right (like the 4E chuul being dumb as a brick but forceful in personality for whatever stupid reason) change it.

For skills, choose a number of skills equal to the base skill points plus intelligence modifier of the monster. These skills are equal to 5 + half the monster's hit dice + relevant bonuses. Monsters in 3E have pretty poor skills for their challenge rating IMO so this shouldn't be too game breaking.

If the monster has a 3rd edition equivalent, use that creature's feat selection. If not, select feats you'd think would be appropriate based on the monster's type.

Challenge rating is the hardest thing to produce. You'll have to play this by ear. Four was a good number so I just subtracted that from the creature's hit dice.

industrious
2009-11-02, 10:15 PM
Thank you once more. Any suggestions for tinkering with NPCs? Their first encounter in wacky Asmodeus Bizarroland will be a "traditional" party of adventurers, so any ideas? Since none of them are Tier 1 classes(I'd put them all in Tier 2), I'd say keep the levels the same, so 10th level vs. 10 level.