The lost art of localisation, or "Helping make anime make sense" [Archive]

The Evil Thing

2009-11-02, 05:51 PM

Aaaargh this thread moves too fast! Sorry if my post appears disjoint since a lot of copy and pasting went on here.

I do think a key goal should be to represent what something means or represents even if it's something the audience isn't really familiar with. The audience should never be bewildered but things shouldn't be changed if they lose meaning.
An impossible pipe dream. There will always be meaning lost when you translate. The question is whether more meaning is lost by retaining the original, since not everyone is going to be an expert on the source language. In fact, if they are you can bet they're going to read the original.

And Evil Thing, people have kind of always imported new words even when existing ones could potentially express the same. It is not like any language is a fixed entity that existed in perfect solitude until the 90s.
Sure. Loanwords like tsunami and sushi are regularly used and understood by the majority of the population. Things like cul-de-sac and savoir-faire have been absorbed so far they are pretty much meaningless in the original (or so I've been told at least). The acid test is not whether there's no available equivalent, it's whether the word you want to use is already in use by the population at large; it's not the job of a translator to expand his target language.

Yu-Gi-Oh! is another example of a good localisation. It wasn't being constantly thrown in your face that THIS IS SET IN JAPAN because it wasn't relevant to the plot, even if the resulting American-remnant Japanese mishmash was a little schizophrenic.

In Naruto, Sai reads a book advising him not to use honorifics with close friends, so he stops. The manga translates this as not using Mr. or Mrs., which he swears to stop despite not doing in the first place. Wouldn't it work better if Sai addressed Naruto Uzamaki and Sakura Haruno by their full names at all times before reading the book? :smallconfused:
This is the invariable peril of translating ongoing series and it's definitely not a job I envy. A later point could easily render a decision you made earlier in good faith simply incorrect.

I would personally have Sai use just their surnames. Using their full names makes him sound like Teal'c. My memory of his earlier days is a little hazy but didn't he use "Naruto-kun"? Note that everyone in Ninja-land is on first name terms, while "'kun" is often used as a generic (polite) honorific towards (and between) boys. With this in mind, having him use surnames suggests an aloof, professional demeanour - certainly not unreasonable given his inferred training; the book could tell him to use people's first names as a way of getting closer. This not only makes the dialogue less clumsy but is easier for Western readers to appreciate.

My question:
How best to handle English in the original Japanese?

I personally think French is the best choice here, since it occupies a similar relationship to English that English does to Japanese. If you were watching the Umineko oh wait... Seagulls :smallwink: episode last week you'll notice gg opted to translate Ange's Engrish-tastic "see you again" as "au revoir". What's also quite neat is that "sayonara" and "adieu" both mean and imply roughly the same thing.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-02, 05:55 PM

Tengu_temp

2009-11-02, 06:00 PM

thubby

2009-11-02, 06:03 PM

in principle i agree. in practice, unfortunately, it rarely works. IMO they get a more consistent and on average higher quality if they use minimal changes.

and as mentioned many franchises are harder or even impossible to change in a meaningful way.

as to bleach, i think byakuya would be one of the mostly unchanged characters. his thing is being the honor and duty bound noble, he is very much the samurai.
by extension you couldn't change rukia's name, but i don't think that's a problem.

the whole fruit theme could be dropped with ichigo, as the feminine name is both easier and more natural to play too.

Terraoblivion

2009-11-02, 06:03 PM

Then pray tell, how did those words enter the language in the first place if those proficient in the original language are not allowed to use them? This is exactly how loanwords enter the language in the first place. Also compared to some imports of language through-out the ages this is ridiculously tiny. In the last 50 years, English loanwords have gone from being an insignificant part of the Danish language to be a full 15% of all words used in everyday speech here. Many of these came into general use exactly because they were left over by translators. It is also noteworthy that English is the only major European language that translations into include substantial localization on a regular basis. Other languages tend towards a much more barebones translation leaving as much of the original as possible intact and given the general attitudes of people from the rest of Europe it seems to work just fine.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-02, 06:03 PM

I'd say that if you're Japanophiliac enough to know that the Persona series exists, then you're probably Japanophiliac enough to know what the various Japanese terms left untranslated mean. And, as Nerdo said, it makes sense in the setting.

Don't underestimate Persona 3 and 4's US sales, though, Tengu. It's spread a bit beyond the weeaboo market (I credit all the wtf-factor and "controversy" created by Persona 3's "shoot yourself in the head to cast spells" gimmick for a bunch of free advertising beyond the base demographic).

The Evil Thing

2009-11-02, 06:07 PM

In defense of Persona 3 and 4's localizations, their settings are very, very, very Japanese and deal in detail with Japanese society, including running the dialog each game through every possible permutation of modern Japanese honorific styles (in Persona 4, honorifics as titles also give your party members something to call the main character in spoken dialog, since most of them are either your underclassmen or dorks who call you "sensei"). P4 could also have been worse, since it did choose to translate terms that actually do have direct, exact-same-connotation English equivalents ("aibou" -> "partner", "oniichan" -> "big bro") instead of throwing those terms out unexplained, or worse, with detailed footnotes.

For something not set in Japan or an intentionally Japan-like setting or filled with necessarily Japanese characters such as, say, most science fiction series, though, just go ahead and replace the honorifics with some sensible English equivalent.
Hrm, I won't deny the translators had their work cut out for them and otherwise they did a bang-up job (just reading the scanlation of the P4 manga is all it takes to drive that point home).

However, it doesn't change the fact that they used honorifics for the other characters as well. (I had to turn off the voicing during the dungeon sections to stop that damn Teddie from whining "Chie-chaaaaaan". It might not be quite so offensive to the ears if they could at least pronounce the words right.) If I were being charitable I'd say they were pandering to the fansub base by parroting their fandumb philosophy; because let's be honest, if Bioware's and Obsidian's voice acting writers could dance around not knowing the MC's name, the P4 (haven't seen P3) translators could do the same.

Then pray tell, how did those words enter the language in the first place if those proficient in the original language are not allowed to use them? This is exactly how loanwords enter the language in the first place. Also compared to some imports of language through-out the ages this is ridiculously tiny. In the last 50 years, English loanwords have gone from being an insignificant part of the Danish language to be a full 15% of all words used in everyday speech here. Many of these came into general use exactly because they were left over by translators. It is also noteworthy that English is the only major European language that translations into include substantial localization on a regular basis. Other languages tend towards a much more barebones translation leaving as much of the original as possible intact and given the general attitudes of people from the rest of Europe it seems to work just fine.
I don't know how tsunami was imported, but I imagine sushi came with the actual concept of... well... sushi. French-based words originated from when it was cool and hip to know French and so people started throwing gratuitous French into their English - that and foreign immigrants make up the main reasons for loanwords existing. It was certainly not because some French-to-English translator realised "Hey, we don't have a word for 'road that ends without connecting to another' (although actually we do - dead end :smalltongue:), I'd better use the French version to compensate!"

I'm glad barebones translations work for most of Europe. But if the same principle applied to us, why would the Asterix translations be so lauded as examples of localisation done right?

Jahkaivah

2009-11-02, 06:07 PM

Alternatively we could support the musical references in the show and call him Sue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89c3hWx3RQ). :smalltongue:

Brilliant :smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-02, 06:24 PM

Hrm, I won't deny the translators had their work cut out for them and otherwise they did a bang-up job (just reading the scanlation of the P4 manga is all it takes to drive that point home).

However, it doesn't change the fact that they used honorifics for the other characters as well. (I had to turn off the voicing during the dungeon sections to stop that damn Teddie from whining "Chie-chaaaaaan". It might not be quite so offensive to the ears if they could at least pronounce the words right.) If I were being charitable I'd say they were pandering to the fansub base by parroting their fandumb philosophy; because let's be honest, if Bioware's and Obsidian's voice acting writers could dance around not knowing the MC's name, the P4 (haven't seen P3) translators could do the same.I honestly question a lot of Persona 4's dub casting, given that several characters have clear difficulty pronouncing their own names, let alone Japanese esoterica.

Then again, many an otherwise excellent dub has been made irritating by the actors' inability to pronounce something as simple as a three-syllable name. *cough*FullMetalPanic.

Starfols

2009-11-02, 06:40 PM

I'd like to see an anime set in the Soviet Union, they could change all honorifics to 'comrade'. :smallbiggrin:

Rogue 7

2009-11-02, 06:41 PM

What did Full Metal Panic get wrong?

*He says, having watched it a couple nights back*

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-02, 06:55 PM

What did Full Metal Panic get wrong?

*He says, having watched it a couple nights back*Mainly just the pronunciation of "Chidori", but its said so damn much in the series...

Lord Iames Osari

2009-11-02, 07:20 PM

Then again, many an otherwise excellent dub has been made irritating by the actors' inability to pronounce something as simple as a three-syllable name. *cough*FullMetalPanic.

Mainly just the pronunciation of "Chidori", but its said so damn much in the series...

How do you get three syllables out of Chidon?

thubby

2009-11-02, 07:44 PM

How do you get three syllables out of Chidon?

it's chidori, not chidon
chi-do-ri

Terraoblivion

2009-11-02, 09:26 PM

But the localization in Asterix, at least as far as i can tell in regards to non-Danish languages which i have no first hand experience with, basically restricts itself to puns and other humor specifically based on language. They don't change jokes about French regions and their characteristics for example. At least the Danish one doesn't, also in the Danish one at least lots of French words are in fact preserved throughout it as well as the gratuitous Latin. And even so Asterix is about the only example i can even think of where things have been localized rather than just translated into Danish.

I have to ask, who would be responsible for the importation of loanwords if not the ones actually working with the language in question? It didn't start with professional translators, they only began after it had been the norm for unprofessional ones for quite a while. Arguably the words used have gained quite a bit of traction among the target audience, which is really who matters for this. The population as a whole is not going to import loanwords unless someone with large penetration introduces them, though they might create their own words looking and sounding like loanwords under some conditions.

And how exactly does people using French words in the past to be snobs and show off differ from people using Japanese words today in order to be snobs and show off? That is really what much of this is about, the natural evolution of language through a mixture of snobbery and native words just not cutting it. Look at the entrance of Latin terms into English, there really is no logical reason why people should use masculine rather than manly for example, but they began doing that and Latin has never been a commonly known language in any English speaking country.

The reason there is even a discussion here seems more like there is a split in audience expectations and associations with words, really. Imperfect penetration of Japanese terms into the English language, even among the target audience, if you will. Some find the English equivalents to the Japanese terms to be awkward even everyday speech or has vastly different connotations. The archetypal example would be grim reaper compared to shinigami, the grim reaper is a very specific image in the west, so seeing it applied to supernatural beings that have little in common with it can seem jarring. Similarly seeing holidays translate poorly.

And one thing that is important to keep in mind is that none of this invalidates that whoever is responsible for "just as keikaku", has nothing to do translating. In almost all cases pretty much every single word in a text not dealing with highly specific, technical topics can be translated, but there are cases where keeping a foreign word will have different connotations than the native term. After all "haram" and "halal" holds rather different connotations compared to "unclean" and "clean" or maybe "impure" and "pure" are better English equivalents. There is a reason why a lot of technical terms are kept and that is that there frequently are distinctions between similar words in different languages. And sometimes the native word just sounds plain goofy, there is a reason that Danish people never really bothered with the word "datamat" instead of computer, it is just clunky, ponderous and sounds quaintly 19th century'ish.

So honestly i am far from advocating a pidgin approaching gibberish, i just think that the degree of purity of language you seem to be advocating is too inflexible and often imprecise to be useful. But then again i am used to speaking a language much more penetrated and influenced by foreign languages than English, we have numerous homegrown phrases that use English and German words for example.

Eldan

2009-11-03, 04:37 AM

Well...
As someone who has had to translate quite a lot of english texts into german, I know how much pain honorifics are. The english word "you" can be translated as either the polite, or casual form. Okay. Of course, people on first name basis use the casual form, while on a family name basis, you use the polite form. However, it gets complicated if, as an example, military ranks come into play.

It leads to total aberrations like the german version of Firefly, where Zoe changes between the polite and causal forms every second sentence when talking to Mal. Absolutely jarring. (Okay, and the voices were bad as well.)

Prime32

2009-11-03, 04:44 AM

But then again i am used to speaking a language much more penetrated and influenced by foreign languages than EnglishUNPOSSIBLE! :smalleek:

Avilan the Grey

2009-11-03, 05:46 AM

Asterix is indeed a good example; I have only read the Swedish, English and Danish versions but they are all excellent.

Part of it might just be a similarity in culture and knowledge; as a Swede, I do share more of my culture with France than the US for example although we like to pretend otherwise.

Eldariel

2009-11-03, 06:00 AM

"n" is its own syllable in Japanese anyways so "Chi-Do-N" would also have 3 syllables.

Terraoblivion

2009-11-03, 08:08 AM

Not grammatical structure, Prime, but vocabulary. For historical changes 90% of the vocabulary was replaced with lower German words in the late middle ages. For more modern changes we have stolen basically all our technical and slang terms from English, so some fields have become a strange fusion in the cases where they are actually spoken in Danish. In addition to that there is the huge import of French, Latin and German words that went on for centuries and in the case of German still does, though at a much slower pace. And unlike English it is very much an ongoing process that can be seen from day to day and year to year as it changes the languages. Cider and pepperoni has begun being pronounced in English rather than the older pronunciation which in the second case is more correct too. Also dubs are only used for children's entertainment and even a lot of all natively produced music is in English, so foreign languages are a basic fact of life here that everyone is exposed to multiple times a day.

Oslecamo

2009-11-03, 08:29 AM

An impossible pipe dream. There will always be meaning lost when you translate. The question is whether more meaning is lost by retaining the original, since not everyone is going to be an expert on the source language. In fact, if they are you can bet they're going to read the original.

I've bought all the Harry Potter books in english as they came out since I couldn't wait for the translation, grabbed my mother's Oxford dictionary and sit down reading them.

Then when the versions on my native language came out I bought them as well and proceeded to read them to see if my translations had been acurate. I learned a lot about english language from this.

So if there should be any meaning lost, the best thing the translator should do is put a translation's note to explain those details. It will push people into learning new languages.

I would personally have Sai use just their surnames. Using their full names makes him sound like Teal'c. My memory of his earlier days is a little hazy but didn't he use "Naruto-kun"? Note that everyone in Ninja-land is on first name terms, while "'kun" is often used as a generic (polite) honorific towards (and between) boys. With this in mind, having him use surnames suggests an aloof, professional demeanour - certainly not unreasonable given his inferred training; the book could tell him to use people's first names as a way of getting closer. This not only makes the dialogue less clumsy but is easier for Western readers to appreciate.

Speack for yourself. I just love to hear the special japanese expressions, and it taught me all the litle I know about that language. If I ever finaly sit down and proceed to properly learn japanese, it will because of reading all those "clumsy" translations. It's just great to be able to hear their original voices and actualy understanding them instead, even if I had to work for that, than trusting in some random translator wich may murder the whole show.

Also, the more recent Asterix's translations just suck. I'm glad I collected most of the original stuff with the original names before the new "Let's crush the children's spirit for learning new languages!" came out.

pita

2009-11-03, 09:50 AM

I've bought all the Harry Potter books in english as they came out since I couldn't wait for the translation, grabbed my mother's Oxford dictionary and sit down reading them.

Then when the versions on my native language came out I bought them as well and proceeded to read them to see if my translations had been acurate. I learned a lot about english language from this.

I'd actually advise against it.
The Hebrew translations for Harry Potter are generally considered a crime against all languages. Someone in the translating business explained to me why it happened, and it's very logical that the translations in other languages are also horrifying.
I'm very much pro adapting novels to the area they're at. I would not mind a version of Crime and Punishment happening in London with different names, for example, although I live in Israel and read English so I'm screwed whichever way I read.

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 09:54 AM

The Hebrew translations for Harry Potter are generally considered a crime against all languages. Someone in the translating business explained to me why it happened, and it's very logical that the translations in other languages are also horrifying.

I don't really follow. Are you saying that you expect all the other translations to be bad for the same reasons the Hebrew translations were? Do you know that they are bad? I hadn't heard so. I don't see how it makes sense to generalize like that.

Prime32

2009-11-03, 09:55 AM

So, any suggestions to focus on?
EDIT: Suggested anime. To localise.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-03, 10:07 AM

EDIT: Wait... what?

EDIT: This browser accidentally the whole post, so I had to rewrite it. :smallyuk:

It's quite interesting to see how obsessive fans can be about names. Initial D changed the names much to the consternation of many, but this saved the dub watchers from having to listen to the American VAs butcher the original Japanese names. In cases where names are changed, it's probably worth remembering that it makes it easier to remember who people are.

What did Full Metal Panic get wrong?

*He says, having watched it a couple nights back*
Well for starters, for some reason Mardukas is speaking with an American accent...

Actually, all things considered the FMP dub isn't that bad.

"n" is its own syllable in Japanese anyways so "Chi-Do-N" would also have 3 syllables.
Well hmm. Yes... technically ん is its own syllable but 99 times out of 100 unless there's some poetic meter involved you'll just hear n tacked onto the end on the preceding sound.

For example, みんなさん and みなさん would be pronounced differently if what you say is true, but in reality they are essentially indistinct and pronounced "mina-san".

Similarly, mini-tsu っ is written as a syllable but is basically just a glottal stop.

But the localization in Asterix, at least as far as i can tell in regards to non-Danish languages which i have no first hand experience with, basically restricts itself to puns and other humor specifically based on language. They don't change jokes about French regions and their characteristics for example. At least the Danish one doesn't, also in the Danish one at least lots of French words are in fact preserved throughout it as well as the gratuitous Latin. And even so Asterix is about the only example i can even think of where things have been localized rather than just translated into Danish.
Part of Asterix's humour is derived from stereotypes of foreign cultures so it wouldn't have made sense to move the whole setting to a different country. More importantly, you don't need to be an expert in those cultures to get most of the jokes (though there's a bonus for those who do). This is what separates it from localisations which just toss you in the deep end and expect you to get on with it (though in fairness, Asterix was probably built that way from the start).

I have to ask, who would be responsible for the importation of loanwords if not the ones actually working with the language in question? It didn't start with professional translators, they only began after it had been the norm for unprofessional ones for quite a while. Arguably the words used have gained quite a bit of traction among the target audience, which is really who matters for this. The population as a whole is not going to import loanwords unless someone with large penetration introduces them, though they might create their own words looking and sounding like loanwords under some conditions.

And how exactly does people using French words in the past to be snobs and show off differ from people using Japanese words today in order to be snobs and show off? That is really what much of this is about, the natural evolution of language through a mixture of snobbery and native words just not cutting it. Look at the entrance of Latin terms into English, there really is no logical reason why people should use masculine rather than manly for example, but they began doing that and Latin has never been a commonly known language in any English speaking country.
Certainly words will be introduced to the language. Be it from snobbery of simply because enough people are using them, the vocabulary will expand. This is especially true with the advent of the internet since new words can be coined faster than old ones fall out of use. A "large penetration" would normally be an entire population - think of the English words mutton, beef etc. which are decended from decidedly un-Saxon Norman French. When the Normans came, they brought their language with them. If, however, one doesn't have the benefit of a large number of people then the word has a real uphill battle to acceptance.

See, the difference between British people speaking French in the early-mid 20th Century to sound snobbish and Americans speaking Japanese to sound snobbish is that for the former everyone was doing it. Meanwhile, though speaking Japanese is certainly impressive, ultimately the culture attaches no more respect to it than speaking Chinese or Hindi. While the percentage of middle class who have some knowledge of French is quite high, I'll bet you the percentage that know Japanese is in single digits. You'd need some sort of public perception that a language (or even just a word) is attractive for them to want to adopt it into their speech. It's not impossible: just look at "gung ho" as an example.

Latin is... Latin. It and Greek made up the two Classical languages that everyone who's anyone should know at least one of. Heck, until quite late scientific papers were written in Latin as a universal language. Catholics conducted mass in Latin. It's got to be the most successful dead language of all time. If academics held the classics in such high esteem is it any wonder that technical terms are derived from the two?

The reason there is even a discussion here seems more like there is a split in audience expectations and associations with words, really. Imperfect penetration of Japanese terms into the English language, even among the target audience, if you will. Some find the English equivalents to the Japanese terms to be awkward even everyday speech or has vastly different connotations. The archetypal example would be grim reaper

compared to shinigami, the grim reaper is a very specific image in the west, so seeing it applied to supernatural beings that have little in common with it can seem jarring. Similarly seeing holidays translate poorly.
There's one thing English doesn't have and that's a lack of equivalents. Of course, even if you can't find a good word to use most languages are flexible enough that you can pad the area with a little ingenuity. The crux of my point is that we're handling entertainment here. As a result, the language should be easy to understand rather than being sprinkled with foreign words in an attempt to claw back a few accuracy points at the cost of comprehension.

You mention the Grim Reaper-shinigami thing but to be quite blunt, I consider that a strawman. Perhaps that wasn't your intention but it's trivial to find alternatives to use if "Grim Reaper" doesn't fit the setting. Come to think of it, doesn't the Bleach translation use "Reapers"? What's wrong with that?

Holidays? Like Kempo Kinen-bi, or Midori no hi? Constitution Memorial Day and Greenery Day? The former tell me... they're Japanese (and that they're some sort of day if I see them written down). The latter tell me at least what they mean. Can you be a bit more specific about holidays that translate poorly?

And one thing that is important to keep in mind is that none of this invalidates that whoever is responsible for "just as keikaku", has nothing to do translating. In almost all cases pretty much every single word in a text not dealing with highly specific, technical topics can be translated, but there are cases where keeping a foreign word will have different connotations than the native term. After all "haram" and "halal" holds rather different connotations compared to "unclean" and "clean" or maybe "impure" and "pure" are better English equivalents. There is a reason why a lot of technical terms are kept and that is that there frequently are distinctions between similar words in different languages. And sometimes the native word just sounds plain goofy, there is a reason that Danish people never really bothered with the word "datamat" instead of computer, it is just clunky, ponderous and sounds quaintly 19th century'ish.
When translating technically you have a lot more leeway. The reader is expecting to have to pay attention and be informed so it's much easier to justify a foreign word which can be explained with a footnote.

Haram ("forbidden", by the way) and Halal ("legal", as you thus might deduce) go back to be earlier points. A word is fine to use if the majority of the population understands it or at least is vagely aware of what it implies. I imagine most people don't know the exact meaning between the two (or even if they know which one's which) but only in an Islamic context. If you used the words when it would have been appropriate to translate them (perhaps something is not bad in the religious sense but just verboten by society) then you'll only confuse the audience, even though a native speaker would instantly understand.*

*NB: I don't speak Arabic so this example may fall flat, but I think the basic idea stands.

So if there should be any meaning lost, the best thing the translator should do is put a translation's note to explain those details. It will push people into learning new languages.
No it won't. It gets in the way and provides translators with an excuse to not do their jobs. For every reader like you there are ten who just want to switch their brains off an enjoy a story. They can't do that if they're being force-fed a second language.

Speack for yourself. I just love to hear the special japanese expressions, and it taught me all the litle I know about that language. If I ever finaly sit down and proceed to properly learn japanese, it will because of reading all those "clumsy" translations. It's just great to be able to hear their original voices and actualy understanding them instead, even if I had to work for that, than trusting in some random translator wich may murder the whole show.
I strongly suggest you find a better motivation to learn Japanese than reading comic books and watching cartoons or you will give up part way.

And it doesn't change the fact that you aren't doing it because you want to, you're doing it because you have to. The fact that you enjoy it is a bonus but still selfish if you think everyone else should be subjected to the same.

So, any suggestions to focus on?
EDIT: Suggested anime. To localise.
When the Seagulls Cry! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: @v: Yeah... :smallconfused:

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 10:09 AM

You've double-posted (with edits), might want to clean that up.

Aaaaaand fixed. So:

For example, みんなさん and みなさん would be pronounced differently if what you say is true, but in reality they are essentially indistinct and pronounced "mina-san".

Is this a real example of two words spelt differently but pronounced identically? I was under the impression that there are indeed words where the doubled n is significant.

A word is fine to use if the majority of the population understands it or at least is vagely aware of what it implies.

The problem I see with this is that it argues for perfect stasis. You're only allowed to use what foreign words your audience already understand and never to educate them.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-03, 10:21 AM

Tacking quotes onto my mammoth post is another form of stasis, but this is easier to read. :smallwink:

The problem I see with this is that it argues for perfect stasis. You're only allowed to use what foreign words your audience already understand and never to educate them.
I define the translation convention to be as follows:
The reader and translator implicitly agree that the characters are not really speaking English, but if they were, this is what they'd say.

If one would use a foreign word in English then go ahead and use a foreign word in the translation. Otherwise, the translator is kind of... "breaking character".

I was a little harsh in the last post. There is a time and place for translator's notes. That time and place is at the back of the book, though, to enhance and complement the reader's understanding of the piece, rather than creating it.

Obviously, this is all void when translating technically.

Is this a real example of two words spelt differently but pronounced identically? I was under the impression that there are indeed words where the doubled n is significant.
Certainly you can "hear" it "pronounced" in many words, but it's best to think of ん as a substitute for っ when placed in front of n or m. Consider ammari or sannin. There's no hard pronounciation of the extra n or m but it's obviously there.

With "mina", you can occasionally hear the extra n if the speaker decides to draw the word out, but normally it's said in shortened form but written in either.

Anyone else think it's a cute coincidence that ん and n look so similar?

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-03, 11:03 AM

Uh, guys?

it's chidori, not chidon
chi-do-ri

What he said. I never typed "chidon", Iames just misread my post.

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 11:07 AM

What he said. I never typed "chidon", Iames just misread my post.

We know. This actually started with Eldariel's post, which while correct seemed rather beside the point. I'm not sure anyone's ever found the lack of a properly metred "n" to be a jarring error in non-native pronounciations of Japanese.

Eldan

2009-11-03, 11:12 AM

Hey, english steals words from everyone around all the time. I mean, it's quite strange for me to read an english text and then, right in the middle, just see some german word I didn't know was taken over. (Ha! You haven't taken over a single swiss word yet! Hooray for so many double umlauts and "chk" sounds that even germans can't pronounce it!)
Examples: Kindergarten and Angst I'm quite used to seeing. "Verboten", as was used a few posts before me, still gets a raised eyebrow. There are others.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-03, 11:18 AM

"Verboten" is something we just use to sound impressively cultured, as if we've seen a lot of World War II films with secret Nazi bases.

Manga Shoggoth

2009-11-03, 11:21 AM

It's quite interesting to see how obsessive fans can be about names. Initial D changed the names much to the consternation of many, but this saved the dub watchers from having to listen to the American VAs butcher the original Japanese names. In cases where names are changed, it's probably worth remembering that it makes it easier to remember who people are.

A few years back, BBC Choice made a dub of a couple of episodes of Urusei Yatsura (I don't recommend watching them - it was an awful job of adaptation and translation).

They faithfully used all the japanese names except for Rei, who they translated as "Raymond".

What really annoyed me was that I expect better from the BBC.

(And yes, the old translations of Asterix are excelent - it was years before I realised that the strip came from France!)

AstralFire

2009-11-03, 11:27 AM

"Verboten" is something we just use to sound impressively cultured, as if we've seen a lot of World War II films with secret Nazi bases.

Speaking of our cultural secrets, Nerd? DAS IS VERBOTEN.

(Also I think it's because, to an American ear, Verboten sounds much more threatening than forbidden when delivered with a snarky tongue.)

Eldan

2009-11-03, 11:30 AM

Hmm. Guess so. Of course, the pronunciation around here is "väbote", but that's a swiss thing.

pita

2009-11-03, 12:47 PM

I don't really follow. Are you saying that you expect all the other translations to be bad for the same reasons the Hebrew translations were? Do you know that they are bad? I hadn't heard so. I don't see how it makes sense to generalize like that.

I'll explain:
The Hebrew translations suck. They suck, because of a certain process that happens with translators and book 1s of series. Essentially, HP book 1 got a bad translator because it wasn't well known enough to get the attention of the good ones. When it became a hit, they had to let the bad translator keep translating the series.
This could also happen in other countries, therefore, I would seriously doubt translations of Harry Potter, just as I would doubt Steven Erikson, Patrick Rothfuss, and Joe Abercrombie translations.

Eldan

2009-11-03, 12:56 PM

Well, to be honest, I always thought the german Harry Potters were quite good. I haven't read them in english, really, because I stopped caring about HP before I learned english.

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 02:04 PM

Okay... but I'm afraid that still seems a hasty and unwarranted conclusion.

Avilan the Grey

2009-11-03, 03:11 PM

Well, to be honest, I always thought the german Harry Potters were quite good. I haven't read them in english, really, because I stopped caring about HP before I learned english.

I have heard it both ways about the Swedish translations, but after comparing the English and Swedish, I am more than pleased with the result. Most people complaining tend to be obsessive fans that started reading it in English and therefore hate the Swedish translation*.
Besides, the Swedish translations have the best cover art of all I have seen.

*I am that way about LOTR, but with good reason. The Swedish translation of LOTR was hideous.
One example: During the battle between Éowyn and the Witch King the translation changed "She" for "He" for several pages.

Rhydeble

2009-11-03, 04:32 PM

The Dutch Harry Potter translation is pretty good, except for the part where the translator changed certain character names, and the names of certain races. Now do keep in mind that English and Dutch are both Germanic languages that are very related.
Now some might make some sense (weasly to wemel. as in Weasel to wezel) but others (Dumbledore/Perkamentus I'm looking at you here) are totally idiotic. Perkamentus translated to English would roughly come out as Parchmentus.

And yeah, the Asterix translations are pretty neat, altough a lot of the humour in Asterix is from European stereotypes, and as a European, I know a lot of them. (I love the 4 most famous bards from Londinium xD)

Oslecamo

2009-11-03, 04:36 PM

No it won't. It gets in the way and provides translators with an excuse to not do their jobs. For every reader like you there are ten who just want to switch their brains off an enjoy a story. They can't do that if they're being force-fed a second language.
Funny, because I could swear people readed stuff to stimulate their brains.:smallamused:

If a book can be read with your brain shut down, then it probably isn't worth reading at all.

I strongly suggest you find a better motivation to learn Japanese than reading comic books and watching cartoons or you will give up part way.

I learned my basis of english from playing video games. And now I'm here, and reading all kind of complicated english texts, all because my parents bought me a mega drive many years ago.

And recently I discover that there are a LOT of great games out there that are in japanese, but probably won't be translated to english by any company. Fun can be is a great incentive to learn something!

And it doesn't change the fact that you aren't doing it because you want to, you're doing it because you have to. The fact that you enjoy it is a bonus but still selfish if you think everyone else should be subjected to the same.

I consider that there's too much lazyness in the world. Anything that forces people to think, rationalize and/or learn(whitout geting physicaly hurt of course) is great in my book.

Terraoblivion

2009-11-03, 05:39 PM

Holidays that don't translate well, Evil Thing? Tanibata doesn't translate very well. Star Festival is about as enigmatic as a gratuitous foreign word. National Day and Greenery Day are relatively straightforward to translate and not terribly enigmatic in their translated form making it useful to translate them. Another example, though this is translating from English rather than to English, would be Thanksgiving. While the word is obviously easy to translate to other languages it means nothing, it truly doesn't make it any easier for people to tell what it is about, especially not since the closest equivalents refer to specific religious concepts in quite a few languages.

And when i say that accuracy and flow matters it is because what i think should be untranslated are specific, important concepts. It is not random incidental banter, it is things that actually matter and don't have a good equivalent, these things tend to become rather clunky if you try to rewrite them to explain. Or those cases where the native equivalent just sounds plain ridiculous because it is a word no one ever uses anyway.

As for using reaper, as far as i am concerned that is just a short hand for grim reaper. I mean have you ever seen the word used in any context not meant to refer to the grim reaper? The farthest divorced from that concept i have seen is the horned reaper from Dungeon Keeper and that is not a very great conceptual leap.

13_CBS

2009-11-03, 06:02 PM

On the topic of translation/localization and manga...what are your thoughts on the usage of Japanese Stock Phrases (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapaneseStockPhrases) in fan translations? To explain...

Let's say that in Painfully Shounen Japanese Comic X, character A is fighting Character B. Big explosions, huge swords and all that. Character A handily defeats B, and indicates that this is due to B's relative lack of experience and/or skill.

In the original Japanese, character A may use the phrase, "Hyakuen hayai!" A literal, word-for-word translation would be, "100 years early!". A less literal one would be, "You're 100 years too early!"

However, saying that someone is X years too early is...a somewhat odd thing to say in English (or, at the very least, the American English that I've grown up on). It's not a phrase you'll almost ever find in native English literature; show me a passage where, say, Vetinari tells Sam Vimes that he's, "100 years too early to be giving him lip like that" to indicate his superiority over Vimes, and I'll eat my recently purchased leather boots. I find such phrases, and others like it (depending on the context: "I won't forgive you!" "I'm at my limit", etc), to be...very jarring.

BUT, at the same time, there's nothing grammatically wrong with saying things like "100 years too early". Most English speakers will probably understand what you're saying if you happened to use it in real life or in a book, and of course languages evolve all the time: several decades ago, the phrase "That's so gay!" would get you weird looks if you tried to use it as an insult, while nowadays the same phrase will get you weird looks if you tried to use it as a compliment. One could also argue that translating Japanese into English in such a fashion is more "faithful", I guess.

So what would be a superior translation for phrases like "Yurusenai, yo!" and "Hyakuen hayai!"? Should they be localized into, depending on the context, things like "You ****ing bastard!" and "Try sucking less next time", or should they be kept as "I won't forgive you!" and "You're 100 years too early!"?

(I've been trying to look for scanlated manga series that do this kind of thing, but Murphy's Law dictates that I'm somehow unable to find them right now. :smallannoyed:)

Edit:

As for using reaper, as far as i am concerned that is just a short hand for grim reaper. I mean have you ever seen the word used in any context not meant to refer to the grim reaper? The farthest divorced from that concept i have seen is the horned reaper from Dungeon Keeper and that is not a very great conceptual leap.

Wait, what's wrong with using "Reaper" for Shinigami, again? IIRC, Tite Kubo claimed that he really liked the translation "Soul Reaper". (Then again, he doesn't natively speak English AFAIK, so...)

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 06:17 PM

"You're a hundred years too early!" is an idiom that can be very easily translated more naturally. "You've a long way to go before you can think of challenging me!" works perfectly well, so far as I can tell.

"I won't forgive you"... hmmm. Probably best translated in a context-dependent way. "I can't let this go" might be a decent general-purpose starting point.

13_CBS

2009-11-03, 06:19 PM

"You're a hundred years too early!" is an idiom that can be very easily translated more naturally. "You've a long way to go before you can think of challenging me!" works perfectly well, so far as I can tell.

But the question is, should it be translated more naturally? As I said, on one hand it's jarring and unnatural to read it, but on the other hand the reader understands the words anyway.

kamikasei

2009-11-03, 06:21 PM

But the question is, should it be translated more naturally?

Well, sure. Why shouldn't it be? It's not conveying anything that's lost in the translation, unlike, say, honorifics may be. If we just wanted direct phrase-for-phrase literalism we could use Babelfish.

HamHam

2009-11-03, 07:15 PM

And one thing that is important to keep in mind is that none of this invalidates that whoever is responsible for "just as keikaku", has nothing to do translating.

Because that screen cap is fake. Hilarious, but fake.

Anyway, I prefer fairly literal translations that are well sourced and annotated. I also prefer it keep honorifics. Since I'm relatively familiar with Japanese language and culture (at least enough to keep track of what's going on anyway) it is far more useful to me to have things remain in their original contexts. I also have no problem with some important stuff staying untranslated, though I can usually pick up on this watching subs regardless of what the sub says, ie nakama, aniki, which "I" is being used, stuff like that.

For manga though I really want stuff like that to be included in the translator's notes.

Cleverdan22

2009-11-03, 08:30 PM

Watching the first couple of seasons of the English Ranma dub is pretty funny, as they can't decide whether or not the want to localize things or not.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-03, 09:58 PM

Because that screen cap is fake. Hilarious, but fake.Are you sure? Because it sounds exactly like TV-Nihon's subs of things like the Zeta Gundam movies or the various Kamen Rider series. While those kisamas failing hard at translating the Zeta movies helps me get into the ragetastic mindset of protagonist Kamille Bidan, it doesn't help me understand or enjoy the movies the least little bit.

HamHam

2009-11-03, 11:53 PM

Are you sure? Because it sounds exactly like TV-Nihon's subs of things like the Zeta Gundam movies or the various Kamen Rider series. While those kisamas failing hard at translating the Zeta movies helps me get into the ragetastic mindset of protagonist Kamille Bidan, it doesn't help me understand or enjoy the movies the least little bit.

I'm pretty sure. At least as sure as you can be about anything on the internet. I think it started out as a hyperbole in some nerd-rage video about how terrible funsubs have become.

Zeful

2009-11-04, 12:18 AM

I'd say that if you're Japanophiliac enough to know that the Persona series exists, then you're probably Japanophiliac enough to know what the various Japanese terms left untranslated mean. And, as Nerdo said, it makes sense in the setting.

I know Persona exists and I don't posses a hard on for Japan, though I probably know the terms.

For Bleach...

The main character's name is Ichigo. This is typically a girl's name meaning "strawberry", though it could also be rendered as "number one" (which happens to be the name of his theme song) and his father tells him it means "the one who protects".

This is tricky. Naming girls after fruit is rare in Western cultures, but flowers are common. If Ichigo was renamed "Rose" or something his sisters' names would also need to be changed to match the theme (they are also named after fruits).

Alternatively we could support the musical references in the show and call him Sue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89c3hWx3RQ). :smalltongue:

"Kuchiki" has an official translation, "Rotwood". Byakuya translates as "white night". A name like "Albus Rotwood" sounds snobbish enough to fit Byakyuya's position as a noble.

Names are a hard choice to make. In my opinion they only reasons to change a name are:
1.) The Name in the source language is impossible or next impossible to pronounce in the translated language.
1.a) If so, then use the closest approximation in the translated Language (as such characters like T.K., Misty, and such would use the Japanese names as Takeru and Kasumi are not hard to pronounce).
2.) The Name in the source language an odd or offensive term or word in the translated language.
2.a) If so, then use the closest thematic approximation in the Translated language (I don't think this has come up, but it's a decent reason)
3.) The character's name is a pun or play on words in the source language, and the pun is very much a part of the character (L/Right for instance).
3.a) Use the closest thematic approximation, even if you have to make up a new name (Bea O'Problem).

If you have to use a different name, make references to the original name (for example Ranma 1/2's Akane Tendo, if you have to change her name at least make one Red Sonja joke, or have Kuno's poetry reference her name (meaning as I understand it is "Red Heaven's Path" or something like that).

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 12:37 AM

I'm pretty sure. At least as sure as you can be about anything on the internet. I think it started out as a hyperbole in some nerd-rage video about how terrible funsubs have become.Still doesn't change the fact that TV-Nihon actually wrote out "Haro genki nai" in subtitles. With a footnote stating "nai = something like 'not'".

You idiots, it means "not". It's a negation. Nai = not. This should not require a footnote, and your "subtitle" should not consist entirely of Japanese. Obviously, they were trying to preserve the semi-broken/ simplistic "robospeak" grammar of the sentence, as well as the fact that it's a negation of Haro's catchphrase (which they didn't translate either), but seriously, have some goddamn guts and try to render it in English.

You little yatsus.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 04:56 AM

Wait, what's wrong with using "Reaper" for Shinigami, again? IIRC, Tite Kubo claimed that he really liked the translation "Soul Reaper". (Then again, he doesn't natively speak English AFAIK, so...)He thought it sounded more appropriate than "death god".

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 08:38 AM

Incoming megapost! All hands brace for impact!

Funny, because I could swear people readed stuff to stimulate their brains.:smallamused:

If a book can be read with your brain shut down, then it probably isn't worth reading at all.

I learned my basis of english from playing video games. And now I'm here, and reading all kind of complicated english texts, all because my parents bought me a mega drive many years ago.

And recently I discover that there are a LOT of great games out there that are in japanese, but probably won't be translated to english by any company. Fun can be is a great incentive to learn something!

I consider that there's too much lazyness in the world. Anything that forces people to think, rationalize and/or learn(whitout geting physicaly hurt of course) is great in my book.
Sorry, I phrased that badly. If you're leaving in a bunch of foreign words and phrases then the reader's attention is driven to the raw text where it must muddle through very, very rough English to make some kind of sense. Have you tried reading the novel translations on Baka-Tsuki? They're almost physically painful to go through; then go read a professionally done translation and compare.

The reader should be able to focus his attention on the content, rather than being reminded every ten words that's he's reading a translation.

Perhaps it is lazy, but it's certainly not a translator's job to try and force people out of that! :smalltongue:

Holidays that don't translate well, Evil Thing? Tanibata doesn't translate very well. Star Festival is about as enigmatic as a gratuitous foreign word. National Day and Greenery Day are relatively straightforward to translate and not terribly enigmatic in their translated form making it useful to translate them. Another example, though this is translating from English rather than to English, would be Thanksgiving. While the word is obviously easy to translate to other languages it means nothing, it truly doesn't make it any easier for people to tell what it is about, especially not since the closest equivalents refer to specific religious concepts in quite a few languages.
Star Festival means a heck of a lot more than Tanabata. Tanabata is meaningless, but I can glean from "star festival" that it has something to do with stars. Besides, even if the concept behind it is mysterious, non-speakers at least have a fighting chance of remembering (and spelling :smallwink:) it.

Thanksgiving... did you mean 感謝祭, or "Kanshasai"? I fail to see the problem. From what I gather, that seems to be the designated translation for Thanksgiving. Can you imagine Japanese people trying to stumble their way through the English phrase?

And when i say that accuracy and flow matters it is because what i think should be untranslated are specific, important concepts. It is not random incidental banter, it is things that actually matter and don't have a good equivalent, these things tend to become rather clunky if you try to rewrite them to explain. Or those cases where the native equivalent just sounds plain ridiculous because it is a word no one ever uses anyway.
I can't deny there are cases where the translator has no choice but use a foreign word, but the translation convention as I define it still applies. In such circumstances, the word should be massaged into the text with an explanation included inline if at all possible - the word should be treated as foreign. Remember: the reader must not be made aware he is reading a translation. This is absolutely imperative.

As for using reaper, as far as i am concerned that is just a short hand for grim reaper. I mean have you ever seen the word used in any context not meant to refer to the grim reaper? The farthest divorced from that concept i have seen is the horned reaper from Dungeon Keeper and that is not a very great conceptual leap.
It's not really a shorthand of Grim Reaper, although the two are inextricably linked in many contexts. It's probably best to think of the Grim Reaper as a single individual - after all, we do say the Grim Reaper - but we can have Reapers as a plural. Remember Grim Fandango? They had loads of them there.

Another way of looking at it is that the Grim Reaper tends to appear more as a metaphor, while Reapers have some presence in a story. This fits the bill in Bleach perfectly.

On the topic of translation/localization and manga...what are your thoughts on the usage of Japanese Stock Phrases (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapaneseStockPhrases) in fan translations? To explain...

Let's say that in Painfully Shounen Japanese Comic X, character A is fighting Character B. Big explosions, huge swords and all that. Character A handily defeats B, and indicates that this is due to B's relative lack of experience and/or skill.

In the original Japanese, character A may use the phrase, "Hyakuen hayai!" A literal, word-for-word translation would be, "100 years early!". A less literal one would be, "You're 100 years too early!"

However, saying that someone is X years too early is...a somewhat odd thing to say in English (or, at the very least, the American English that I've grown up on). It's not a phrase you'll almost ever find in native English literature; show me a passage where, say, Vetinari tells Sam Vimes that he's, "100 years too early to be giving him lip like that" to indicate his superiority over Vimes, and I'll eat my recently purchased leather boots. I find such phrases, and others like it (depending on the context: "I won't forgive you!" "I'm at my limit", etc), to be...very jarring.

BUT, at the same time, there's nothing grammatically wrong with saying things like "100 years too early". Most English speakers will probably understand what you're saying if you happened to use it in real life or in a book, and of course languages evolve all the time: several decades ago, the phrase "That's so gay!" would get you weird looks if you tried to use it as an insult, while nowadays the same phrase will get you weird looks if you tried to use it as a compliment. One could also argue that translating Japanese into English in such a fashion is more "faithful", I guess.

So what would be a superior translation for phrases like "Yurusenai, yo!" and "Hyakuen hayai!"? Should they be localized into, depending on the context, things like "You ****ing bastard!" and "Try sucking less next time", or should they be kept as "I won't forgive you!" and "You're 100 years too early!"?
One word: PURGE! Though these phrases make sense enough when translated word for word, they have the side effect of rendering the dialogue artificially comical.

It's best to find an idiomatic solution to keep the mood right where you want it, but I can't very well hand out some stock translations to substitute since context is key, as always. For instance, depending on the tone, "ten years too early" could easily become "come back in ten years"; meanwhile "I won't forgive you" could be either "I'll never forgive you" or "You won't get away with this" depending on how serious the speaker is. ("You won't get away with this" has the added bonus of being a clichéd stock phrase in English too.) Remember, when you're going from a language that has more common ground with Latin than English, you have to consider not what the words "mean" but why they are there in the first place.

Consider "yurusenai!" ("yo" is just a emphasis particle so we can forget that). Rather than thinking "what does this mean?" try along the lines of "why is this guy saying this, and what would he say were he speaking English?". If you think in those terms, you'll be able to answer most of those questions well enough.

One more thing: please be careful using weasel words like "faithful". What constitutes a faithful translation? Something the translator rushed off in a week by sticking to the original as much as he could get away with? What about the translator who toils for months to mould the language, so that it keeps the spirit of the original while reading as smoothly as any novel published in his native language? I think we both know which one we'd like to read.

Because that screen cap is fake. Hilarious, but fake.

Anyway, I prefer fairly literal translations that are well sourced and annotated. I also prefer it keep honorifics. Since I'm relatively familiar with Japanese language and culture (at least enough to keep track of what's going on anyway) it is far more useful to me to have things remain in their original contexts. I also have no problem with some important stuff staying untranslated, though I can usually pick up on this watching subs regardless of what the sub says, ie nakama, aniki, which "I" is being used, stuff like that.

For manga though I really want stuff like that to be included in the translator's notes.
Fair enough, so please hurry up and actually learn Japanese so that the publishing companies can sell translations to people outside the scanlation-fansub community, because right now the entry level is too high to attract casual customers of their own.

Still doesn't change the fact that TV-Nihon actually wrote out "Haro genki nai" in subtitles. With a footnote stating "nai = something like 'not'".

You idiots, it means "not". It's a negation. Nai = not. This should not require a footnote, and your "subtitle" should not consist entirely of Japanese. Obviously, they were trying to preserve the semi-broken/ simplistic "robospeak" grammar of the sentence, as well as the fact that it's a negation of Haro's catchphrase (which they didn't translate either), but seriously, have some goddamn guts and try to render it in English.

You little yatsus.
I like to call such groups "Hard of Hearing Fansubs" since the only justification for including Japanese in the subtitle tracks when the original can be heard clear as day is that they're subbing for deaf people. In this enlightened age it's obvious these groups serve a vital purpose to society and shouldn't be subjected to such vitriol.

He thought it sounded more appropriate than "death god".
That's because it does.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 09:20 AM

I like to call such groups "Hard of Hearing Fansubs" since the only justification for including Japanese in the subtitle tracks when the original can be heard clear as day is that they're subbing for deaf people. In this enlightened age it's obvious these groups serve a vital purpose to society and shouldn't be subjected to such vitriol....if these subtitles were meant to be closed-captioning for Japanese-speakers, wouldn't they be written in Japanese characters? It'd be the equivalent of writing English subtitles for NCIS in katakana.

Sorry, but not buying it.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 09:30 AM

...if these subtitles were meant to be closed-captioning for Japanese-speakers, wouldn't they be written in Japanese characters? It'd be the equivalent of writing English subtitles for NCIS in katakana.

Sorry, but not buying it.

I thought Evil Thing was being sarcastic. :smallconfused:

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 09:35 AM

And how am I supposed to tell the difference between sarcasm and serious dumbness on the internet, exactly?

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 09:44 AM

Eloquence?

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 09:51 AM

You have to understand.

There are people who like TV-Nihon's subs. There are people who think leaving whole sentences untranslated in the subtitles with a footnote is a valid stylistic choice.

When I learned that, my faith in humanity, even the parts of it that can actually spell, pretty much evaporated for good.

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 09:54 AM

If it makes you feel better, Evil Thing, I read it as sarcasm. :smallsmile:

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 10:04 AM

Yeah, don't worry. I thought this whole exchange was quite funny.

Nerd, the English language does not possess the vocabulary necessary to illustrate quite how much I agree with you on this. :smalltongue:

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 10:09 AM

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 10:11 AM

Nah, I'm too lazy. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 10:14 AM

Nah, I'm too lazy. :smallbiggrin:

Lazy baka* gaijin.**

* approximately means 'stupid.'
** roughly translates to 'foreigner.'

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 10:17 AM

Tsk tsk, AstralFire... the correct word is Gaikokujin. :smallwink:

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 10:19 AM

Meh. I didn't learn Korean, why would I learn Japanese? :smalltongue:

Holocron Coder

2009-11-04, 10:42 AM

Tsk tsk, AstralFire... the correct word is Gaikokujin. :smallwink:

Actually, gaikokujin would be better translated as "foreign person" where gaijin is "foreigner." Essentially just a shortening of the phrase :smallbiggrin:

Prime32

2009-11-04, 10:49 AM

Not to be confused with koku gaijin.
http://theformofmoney.blogharbor.com/CocaColaPoster.jpg

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 10:49 AM

When you stick "outside" and "person" together in one word you tend to get all sorts of weird implications. Gaikokujin is far more neutral; it's a little like the difference between calling some an alien (which is technically correct) and a foreigner (which is more normal).

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 10:53 AM

And this is why it was only 'roughly translates' to foreigner!

SUBTITLE FOOTNOTES WIN AGAIN*!

* a norse word roughly meaning 'once more.'

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 10:57 AM

How can text be subtitled? That makes no sense.

(It looks like this thread has degenerated into the Pedantry Corner. :smallsmile:)

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 10:59 AM

Sorry. I enjoy being silly, and I haven't had anything to add that I didn't think you or Nerd weren't already stating very well.

Lord Seth

2009-11-04, 11:15 AM

Depends on the series. BoBoBo-Bo Bo-BoBo's dub changed a lot of names and dialogue, but I think almost all of them worked. Same with Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Usually, though, I think names and everything else should stay as close to the original as possible.

On a semi-related note I hate it in scanlations when they don't simply translate it into "brother" or "sister" and instead write stuff like "nee-san".

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 11:39 AM

Sorry. I enjoy being silly, and I haven't had anything to add that I didn't think you or Nerd weren't already stating very well.
Why be sorry? This is fun.

On a semi-related note I hate it in scanlations when they don't simply translate it into "brother" or "sister" and instead write stuff like "nee-san".
Oddly enough, I hate it when they do. The word is overused and it's much cleaner to simply use the person's name, like what native speakers do. (That's not to say it shouldn't be used ever, but only when stylistically justified.)

Rogue 7

2009-11-04, 11:46 AM

Y'know, while I agree with most of the stuff regarding general translations, I don't get the hate-ons for honorifics. While in the one sense it's not particularly meaningful to people who don't get it, for folks who understand the permutations (and there's really only like, 5, it's not that hard to pick up on), it adds quite a bit to the dialogue and character interactions when you look at how the characters address each other. I think the intricacies that adding the honorifics gives you is well worth any sort of confusion from new watchers/readers.

Hell, as I recall, the Viz translation of Rurouni Kenshin left in most of the honorifics. Kenshin wouldn't be Kenshin if he didn't use -dono constantly.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 11:59 AM

HamHam

2009-11-04, 01:01 PM

Fair enough, so please hurry up and actually learn Japanese so that the publishing companies can sell translations to people outside the scanlation-fansub community, because right now the entry level is too high to attract casual customers of their own.

What? They already sell to a casual community. If anything they are now trying to move into the fansuber's territory which means providing the same kind of product.

In other words, there is clearly a demand for crazy weaboo translations so it's going to be filled either by fansubs or by the industry.

There is also a demand for more localized translations and in general dubs are the place to do that more than subs unless you are prepared to release multiple types of subs.

The simply fact is that, for example, Negima with honorifics and decent translator's notes in the back is more useful to me than Negima that is "localized" and so that is what I would want to buy and will buy.

On the other hand, Hellsing with normal English and crazy fake Irish and crazy fake German are more interesting to me than Hellsing without those things and more literal or whatever.

No, Kenshin wouldn't be Kenshin if he didn't talk in old-fashioned speech all the time.

You're assigning significance that wasn't originally there. You ignored his "de gozaru" and his "sessha". Why does his use of "-dono" merit your attention yet these other aspects do not?

Because trying to translate -dono to English isn't going to work because there is no real equivalent in English that isn't awkward. On the other hand, the "this one" formulation pretty much covers a lot of the other stuff and reads well enough. Though a note at the end about "sessha" and such would have been nice.

Lord Seth

2009-11-04, 01:13 PM

I remember the dub of Rurouni Kenshin cut out all the honorifics and such but still gave him a distinctive "old" style of speech.

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 01:23 PM

I remember the dub of Rurouni Kenshin cut out all the honorifics and such but still gave him a distinctive "old" style of speech.

Aye, it did, Mister Seth, that it did.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 01:31 PM

Then you have things like Orochimaru from Naruto. In the original he used feminine grammar to make him creepy. Since this is difficult to translate even in subs, the dub gave him a creepier voice.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 01:47 PM

What? They already sell to a casual community. If anything they are now trying to move into the fansuber's territory which means providing the same kind of product.

In other words, there is clearly a demand for crazy weaboo translations so it's going to be filled either by fansubs or by the industry.

There is also a demand for more localized translations and in general dubs are the place to do that more than subs unless you are prepared to release multiple types of subs.

The simply fact is that, for example, Negima with honorifics and decent translator's notes in the back is more useful to me than Negima that is "localized" and so that is what I would want to buy and will buy.
They're not doing it because it's right, they're doing it because that's where the money is. The weeaboo sorry, fan community has consistently demonstrated that they won't buy translations that don't kowtow to their ridiculous notions of linguistics.

In other words, "there is clearly a demand for crazy weaboo translations" that is filled by both fansubs and by the industry. Is it any wonder the US manga industry partially collapsed? The only way for new people to enter is by slogging through the world of scanlations for a few months. After all, would you buy a book if you didn't understand a whole bunch of words and was probably prefaced by "here's a list of words we're too damn cynical lazy incompetent to translate"; have fun!

Can I have a Negima that translates everything into English but still keeps the translator's endnotes explaining the Latin, Greek and what have you, as well as the various visual throwaway gags?

Because trying to translate -dono to English isn't going to work because there is no real equivalent in English that isn't awkward. On the other hand, the "this one" formulation pretty much covers a lot of the other stuff and reads well enough. Though a note at the end about "sessha" and such would have been nice.
Do you really honestly think, given my position on this issue, that I haven't heard the "there is no real equivalent in English" line before? That's like saying we should never draw 3D objects, because there's no real equivalence to depth on a 2D plane. In fact, I hear this so often that I've run out of legitimate counter arguments (I actually get tired of saying the same thing over and over) and now resort to coming up with more and more bizarre analogies, as evidenced above.

I thought the "this one" was clumsy; in fact, the whole Viz translation seemed pretty flat and soulless.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 02:06 PM

Maybe you should say it in Japanese.

"Sou desho" could work. :smallbiggrin:

My question is, then: why do people think stuff like TV-Nihon's subs and "You're 100 years too early" are good? I don't mean this in a "lol weaboos" scathing manner, I'm serious. What is their reasoning? Why do they think their translation is better?

Draco Dracul

2009-11-04, 02:09 PM

I strongly suggest you find a better motivation to learn Japanese than reading comic books and watching cartoons or you will give up part way.

I can't really think of a better reason. What other reasons are there? What is a better motivation that doing for/through something I find enjoyable?

Zeful

2009-11-04, 02:16 PM

Because trying to translate -dono to English isn't going to work because there is no real equivalent in English that isn't awkward. On the other hand, the "this one" formulation pretty much covers a lot of the other stuff and reads well enough. Though a note at the end about "sessha" and such would have been nice.

According to my copy of Negima! Magister Negi Magi Volume 2 -dono is translated as Lord and calling someone "Lord" isn't awkward, doubly so with the time period invoked. The only Japanese honorifics that are hard to translate are -chan, -kun, and technically Sempai and Kohai. -chan, and -kun actually have no comparable words or phrases in English and instead are part of way we change our voice when talking to friends or close relatives, the only reason Sempai and Kohai can't be translated is that the translations don't have as wide a use as the original and aren't part of normal English speaking patterns.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 02:18 PM

My question is, then: why do people think stuff like TV-Nihon's subs and "You're 100 years too early" are good? I don't mean this in a "lol weaboos" scathing manner, I'm serious. What is their reasoning? Why do they think their translation is better?It's exotic.

According to my copy of Negima! Magister Negi Magi Volume 2 -dono is translated as Lord and calling someone "Lord" isn't awkward, doubly so with the time period invoked. The only Japanese honorifics that are hard to translate are -chan, -kun, and technically Sempai and Kohai. -chan, and -kun actually have no comparable words or phrases in English and instead are part of way we change our voice when talking to friends or close relatives, the only reason Sempai and Kohai can't be translated is that the translations don't have as wide a use as the original and aren't part of normal English speaking patterns.Actually, -tono is lord. You would normally address a lord with -sama. -dono is more something that lords use to address each other.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 02:22 PM

My question is, then: why do people think stuff like TV-Nihon's subs and "You're 100 years too early" are good? I don't mean this in a "lol weaboos" scathing manner, I'm serious. What is their reasoning? Why do they think their translation is better?
You'll generally hear meaningless words like "authentic" and "faithful" bandied about. For these guys, a translation is simply there to guide people's understanding of a foreign language work, rather than a way for those who don't speak the right language to understand.

I can't really think of a better reason. What other reasons are there? What is a better motivation that doing for/through something I find enjoyable?
It's too easy to find a simple place to stop. Where's the push or drive? If you can self-motivate all the way through learning a foreign language even though there's no real need to then outstanding; but most of the people I've talked to need a practical reason as well to keep them going, even if it's just getting a qualification of some sort.

Zeful

2009-11-04, 02:24 PM

It's exotic. They're idiots.

Actually, -tono is lord. You would normally address a lord with -sama. -dono is more something that lords use to address each other.

Then why would the manga say otherwise? I'll even quote the relevant section:

-dono: This comes from the word tono which means lord. It is an even higher level than sama, and confers utmost respect.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 02:27 PM

You do realise you're citing a manga that doesn't understand the purpose of honorifics? Don't expect it to be right; they probably copy-pasted it off the AnimeSuki forums or something.

Actually, the early Negima volumes provide us with a hilarious contradiction. On the one hand, the editorial bleats about how they're keeping honorifics to preserve the original Japanese (idiots), then they give the translator free reign to rewrite the text.

I have to say, I think the translator did a nice job. A couple of his rewrites ended up contradicting the canon but otherwise it was unjustly criticised.

Zeful

2009-11-04, 02:34 PM

You do realise you're citing a manga that doesn't understand the purpose of honorifics?
No. Why would I?

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 02:36 PM

Because it doesn't translate them? :smallwink:

Drascin

2009-11-04, 02:38 PM

My question is, then: why do people think stuff like TV-Nihon's subs and "You're 100 years too early" are good? I don't mean this in a "lol weaboos" scathing manner, I'm serious. What is their reasoning? Why do they think their translation is better?

Now, I'm not going to dispute TVNihon sucks, because they have zero ability to understand what can be translated and what can't, and so just leave everything untranslated, which kinda makes you wonder why they bother anyway. It's one thing to try to keep faithful and another to just be plain stupid about it.

But the other thing you mention made me curious, I didn't ever notice the whole "You're 100 years too early" thing being a bad construction, in all honesty. You mean English doesn't actually have a phrase like that? I mean, Spanish does, almost the same style (though we rarely actually give an exact number, that just sounds pedantic :smallamused:). I just kinda assumed it was a valid English saying as well.

It's too easy to find a simple place to stop. Where's the push or drive? If you can self-motivate all the way through learning a foreign language even though there's no real need to then outstanding; but most of the people I've talked to need a practical reason as well to keep them going, even if it's just getting a qualification of some sort.

I really don't see such problem with the idea. Well, I do, in that Japanese is weird as all hells as a language and therefore probably a lot harder than it's worth to learn, but learning by hobby isn't that farfetched. Almost every word of English I know I learned by playing videogames first, andby surfing the internet/reading RPG sourcebooks later. I never had a need, as such, except the need to know what the NPCs in Lufia were telling me. And, well, I am not exactly Shakespeare, of course, but I think I manage to make myself understood :smallbiggrin:.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 02:40 PM

The Evil Thing

2009-11-04, 02:41 PM

But the other thing you mention made me curious, I didn't ever notice the whole "You're 100 years too early" thing being a bad construction, in all honesty. You mean English doesn't actually have a phrase like that? I mean, Spanish does, almost the same style (though we rarely actually give an exact number, that just sounds pedantic :smallamused:). I just kinda assumed it was a valid English saying as well.
We sort of do, in the phrase "come back in ten years" but it's generally said jokily rather than as a method of intimidation.

I really don't see such problem with the idea. Well, I do, in that Japanese is weird as all hells as a language and therefore probably a lot harder than it's worth to learn, but learning by hobby isn't that farfetched. Almost every word of English I know I learned by playing videogames first, andby surfing the internet/reading RPG sourcebooks later. I never had a need, as such, except the need to know what the NPCs in Lufia were telling me. And, well, I am not exactly Shakespeare, of course, but I think I manage to make myself understood :smallbiggrin:.
I had no idea you weren't a native speaker, so you did very well. So be it... ultimately I'm only repeating what other people told me anyway.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 02:45 PM

You mean English doesn't actually have a phrase like that?

As far as I know in "American" English (or, at the very least, the Southeast and Northeast US Coast English that I've been exposed to, plus all of the English literature I've ever read)...no. Again, it's technically grammatically correct, and most people will understand what you're saying by context. However, it's not a combination of words used in every day "American" English. Because such phrases are almost never used, native English readers may be jarred when they come across them, and as Evil Thing has said, this can inject unintentional comedy into a scene.

Edit: and as others have said, similar phrases like "Come back in a 100 years" isn't particularly intimidating or harsh, more like a jest or a tease.

Zeful

2009-11-04, 02:57 PM

As far as I know in "American" English (or, at the very least, the Southeast and Northeast US Coast English that I've been exposed to, plus all of the English literature I've ever read)...no.

Yes we do. We have the jokingly used "Come back in ten years." And the more seriously used "Come back when your serious". Both are more commonly used in Movies, but they are English terms. But I don't think they're used that often in the written works though.

Eldan

2009-11-04, 02:58 PM

We sort of do, in the phrase "come back in ten years" but it's generally said jokily rather than as a method of intimidation.

I had no idea you weren't a native speaker, so you did very well. So be it... ultimately I'm only repeating what other people told me anyway.

It's mostly the same for me...
Well, I had some formal english education, but the result of that was mostly the level of "Hello, where is the trainstation, is this a good restaurant?".
All else came from watching TV. Amusingly, much of the TV I watched was anime with english subtitles. Yes, I used fansubs to learn english.

Rogue 7

2009-11-04, 02:58 PM

No, Kenshin wouldn't be Kenshin if he didn't talk in old-fashioned speech all the time.

You're assigning significance that wasn't originally there. You ignored his "de gozaru" and his "sessha". Why does his use of "-dono" merit your attention yet these other aspects do not?

Like the others pointed out, they managed to aptly translate that well (in the manga, at least. I only vaguely recall the dub), but you've got to jump through a bunch of verbal hoops in order to translate -dono. Kenshin constantly calling Kaoru "miss Kaoru" sounds really odd to western ears, particularly when he does so when addressing her.

I'm curious as to why you're so adamant that every single thing must be changed, and that any and all artifacts of the fact that this was originally produced in Japanese is bad.

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 03:04 PM

Miss Kaoru doesn't sound particularly odd for someone trying to be very polite.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 03:05 PM

L Kenshin constantly calling Kaoru "miss Kaoru" sounds really odd to western ears, particularly when he does so when addressing her.

Does it? It sounds fine to me. Although people often try to translate "Mr./Mrs." from "-san", in this case it sounds rather appropriate. "Lady Kaoru" or somesuch might be a bit too much, though.

Oslecamo

2009-11-04, 03:06 PM

I'm curious as to why you're so adamant that every single thing must be changed, and that any and all artifacts of the fact that this was originally produced in Japanese is bad.

I'm also curious about this. People mixing words from diferent languages when there isn't a exact direct translation possible is quite common in real life.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 03:08 PM

Yes we do. We have the jokingly used "Come back in ten years." And the more seriously used "Come back when your serious". Both are more commonly used in Movies, but they are English terms. But I don't think they're used that often in the written works though.

Really? Interesting...I don't watch very many movies at all, so I guess that's why I've never ever heard of those phrases being used.

I'm also curious about this. People mixing words from diferent languages when there isn't a exact direct translation possible is quite common in real life.

Examples?

Zeful

2009-11-04, 03:15 PM

Does it? It sounds fine to me. Although people often try to translate "Mr./Mrs." from "-san", in this case it sounds rather appropriate. "Lady Kaoru" or somesuch might be a bit too much, though.

Really? Many English works I've read use the Lord/Lady as a term of great respect (though I've also seen it used as a term of adoration or a term of fear), or to enforce the archaic manner of speaking (Dragonriders of Pern for instance), I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate.

Really? Interesting...I don't watch very many movies at all, so I guess that's why I've never ever heard of those phrases being used.I watch a lot of cheesy B Action movies, but most serious action movies don't use thing like that.

Examples?Coup de Grace, Tuxedo, English in general.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 03:17 PM

Really? Many English works I've read use the Lord/Lady as a term of great respect (though I've also seen it used as a term of adoration or a term of fear), or to enforce the archaic manner of speaking (Dragonriders of Pern for instance), I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate.

In a modern context it might stand out too much...but for some reason I completely forgot about the fact that Rurouni Kenshin is, uh, not exactly set in modern times. :smallannoyed: So actually yes, "Lady Kaoru" might just fit if the reader is familiar with where the setting is in time.

Oslecamo

2009-11-04, 03:26 PM

Examples?

Many words in my language are almost identical copies of their english originals.

Others like chip are exact copies.

I've heard quite a lot of people swear in english even when talking in our normal language, but for obvious reasons I can't post them here.

A lot of gamers I know say "owned" even when speaking in our language.

In my uni classes we use english science and computer terms left and right because we don't have the patience to find suitable translations and all the books are in english anyway.

Mc'Donalds marketing phrase "I'm loving it!" is left completely untraslated in my country because they claim this way it passes it's meaning better!

Plus what Zeful said.

13_CBS

2009-11-04, 03:29 PM

Perhaps a lot of this is just personal preference? I simply prefer to keep as much Japanese out of English prose as much as possible since that's just how I roll, but others have raised very good points on keeping certain Japanese words in when practical.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 03:29 PM

Mc'Donalds marketing phrase "I'm loving it!" is left completely untraslated in my country because they claim this way it passes it's meaning better! That's strange, the cups here have it written in a bunch of different languages. :smallconfused: But I suppose it's different if English is "hip".

Eldan

2009-11-04, 03:36 PM

Examples? German has "CD", "Computer", "DVD", "Internet", "Motherboard", "High Definition", pretty much every technical term ever is english. Same with most sciences. Fashion, too, at least in switzerland. And don't ever try to talk to a bank manager about his job, unless you really love badly accented english applied in a grammatically horrible fashion.

Prime32

2009-11-04, 03:43 PM

The French apparently have an institution that doesn't like this and tries to come up with original French terms for things.

Drascin

2009-11-04, 03:48 PM

The French apparently have an institution that doesn't like this and tries to come up with original French terms for things.

Technically there's a Spanish one too. But noone really pays any attention to them :smallamused:.

Eldan

2009-11-04, 03:51 PM

Heh. I remember our french lessons back in school. Our teacher had hired an exchange student from paris for a few lessons, so that he could split the class in smaller groups and do some talking. We were then talking about our hobbies. So one guy said that his hobby was "planche à roulette".
Cue confused stare from the student. After some explanatory hand gestures and explanations, she finally said "Ah! Un skate-board!"

Prime32

2009-11-04, 04:04 PM

For Irish you will often hear people moaning about how the word for car, "gluastáin", was replaced by "carr". There's plenty of other examples. Usually the spelling will be normalised, but the word for zoo used to be "sú" and it seems to have become "zú". Irish isn't supposed to even have a letter z. :smalltongue:

Brother Oni

2009-11-04, 04:52 PM

On a semi-related note I hate it in scanlations when they don't simply translate it into "brother" or "sister" and instead write stuff like "nee-san".
Oddly enough, I hate it when they do. The word is overused and it's much cleaner to simply use the person's name, like what native speakers do. (That's not to say it shouldn't be used ever, but only when stylistically justified.)

Oddly enough, I hate it when they do. The word is overused and it's much cleaner to simply use the person's name, like what native speakers do. (That's not to say it shouldn't be used ever, but only when stylistically justified.)

It's usually regarded as impolite to call an older sibling by their first name only.

It's more proper to call them 'Onee-san/Onii-san' or by their first name with the honourific tacked on the end, especially in more formal circumstances.

I'd also like to point out that these terms specifically mean 'older sister/brother' and their use (or lack of) can be important in context or for emotional impact.

Kalbron

2009-11-04, 05:45 PM

There's also the fact for me that "brother" and "sister" feel incredibly forced in most useages. I think my little sister only called me brother until she was 3 or so, and I never called her "sis".

This goes double for phrases like "Miss Kaoru" which also feel forced and unnatural. Especially if you've known the person in question for a long long time like Kenshin has at the end of the series.

Whereas since I know something about Japanese society and language, the honourifics and turns of phrase seem far more natural than attempting an English translation that would fail to capture the entire meaning. That and the honourifics are used for far more than simply showing respect. They get a fair workout in sarcasm, insults, etc as well.

Taking the honourifics out of a Japanese work would be like attempting to remove all the words in English that have Christianity as their origins and attempt to write a book. Can you do it? Yes. Would it sound clunky to someone without the arbitrary restriction? Definitely.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-04, 05:50 PM

It's also fairly common for different relations (cousins, for example) or even close practically-family friends to use sibling honorifics even when they're not technically correct - I'll cite Persona 4 and your little cousin's constant Big Bro-ing again. You'd never really have this happen in English, except for maybe the word "bro" among friends - which is a perfect equivalent of the Japanese "aniki", although that's a title and not an honorific.

And then there's the whole "oneesama" thing...

Eldan

2009-11-04, 05:52 PM

Ah, yes. Honorifics. I've finished watching Monster this weekend. The most annoying thing apart from the very liberally applied german was that they used the word "doctor" about five times per sentence on average. So this seems to work in both directions: it seems that they used the word "doctor" whenever they would have used one of their own honorifics and the effect was just strange.

Kalbron

2009-11-04, 06:01 PM

Well they likely would have used "Sensei" otherwise which of course approximately means "master of their art", hence why you have everything from swordsmiths to teachers to doctors being called it.

So they simply looked up what one would call a Doctor in Germany and applied it liberally like they would use Sensei, when such would feel rather unnatural to many Westerners.

HamHam

2009-11-04, 09:15 PM

They're not doing it because it's right, they're doing it because that's where the money is. The weeaboo sorry, fan community has consistently demonstrated that they won't buy translations that don't kowtow to their ridiculous notions of linguistics.

The free market decides what's right!

After all, would you buy a book if you didn't understand a whole bunch of words and was probably prefaced by "here's a list of words we're too damn cynical lazy incompetent to translate"; have fun!

Yes? My copy of Art of War for example leaves all kinds of thing untranslated, like units of measurement or Tao for example, and occasionally adds what word is being translated in parenthesis after the translation presumably to indicate concepts which require different English words to translate in different context but which represent one idea in the original.

Can I have a Negima that translates everything into English but still keeps the translator's endnotes explaining the Latin, Greek and what have you, as well as the various visual throwaway gags?

Sure. Just find someone with the same desire who is willing to translate it like that and have them do a scanlation.

Do you really honestly think, given my position on this issue, that I haven't heard the "there is no real equivalent in English" line before? That's like saying we should never draw 3D objects, because there's no real equivalence to depth on a 2D plane. In fact, I hear this so often that I've run out of legitimate counter arguments (I actually get tired of saying the same thing over and over) and now resort to coming up with more and more bizarre analogies, as evidenced above.

Well can you humor me with a counter-argument? What translation would you suggest?

The fact is that in English you just don't use honorific + first name. You use honorific + last name or even full name ie Mr John Smith or Mr Smith or Lord Smith but never Mr John.

Using original honorifics can give me a much more precise understanding of the character relationships than trying to figure it out from what they tried to translate them to. Thus, I prefer the original honorifics be kept most of the time.

I thought the "this one" was clumsy; in fact, the whole Viz translation seemed pretty flat and soulless.

Well I liked it.

Zeful

2009-11-04, 09:58 PM

Using original honorifics can give me a much more precise understanding of the character relationships than trying to figure it out from what they tried to translate them to. Thus, I prefer the original honorifics be kept most of the time.

That's the best argument I've heard for keeping Japanese honorifics over switching to an idiomatic translation (and yes you can do an idiomatic translation, it's just harder).

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 11:25 PM

The French apparently have an institution that doesn't like this and tries to come up with original French terms for things.

Most of the European languages have a similar body.

Lord Seth

2009-11-05, 12:43 AM

Zeful

2009-11-05, 01:11 AM

You know, I've actually got a bit of a question.

We've been talking about the issue of retaining or removing honorifics when translating into English, because English lacks the range of honorifics that Japanese has. So this brings up a question I've been wondering:

How do they handle honorifics when something is translated into Japanese from English? How do they decide which honorifics to use and when?

That's pretty easy. Japanese has pretty hard-and-fast rules for the usage of honorifics. Girls would get either -chan or -san depending on who's referring to them, guys would get -chan if they were really young, otherwise I'd be -kun or -san. Teachers, school administrators, and other adults in power would be either -sensei, Sensei, -san or -sama, again depending on who's referring to them. Lords, corporate executives, or people with vast political power would be -tono or -dono. Though given the amount of insults in most conflicts I excpet that a couple of -kohais, misplaced -chans, and even simple lacking of honorifics entirely.

I'm running off an, apparently, incorrect source for my information, so If I'm wrong correct me.

Brother Oni

2009-11-05, 08:13 AM

That's pretty easy. Japanese has pretty hard-and-fast rules for the usage of honorifics. Girls would get either -chan or -san depending on who's referring to them, guys would get -chan if they were really young, otherwise I'd be -kun or -san.

It also very much depends on the relationship between the speaker and the subject.
A parent might refer to their children as 'chan' even up until their late teens, much like a pet name in the west (with the associated, "Dad, I'm 17! Stop calling me that!").

Teachers, school administrators, and other adults in power would be either -sensei, Sensei, -san or -sama, again depending on who's referring to them.

-san implies a level of familiarity with the person and that they're of the same approximate social standing as you. Parents would call their children's teachers -sensei, while the teacher would use -san or -sama, depending on the school and the parents themselves (which is more a comment on the power of PTAs in Japan).
A shop assistant or receptionist would refer to a customer as -sama.

Lords, corporate executives, or people with vast political power would be -tono or -dono. Though given the amount of insults in most conflicts I excpet that a couple of -kohais, misplaced -chans, and even simple lacking of honorifics entirely.

In my experience, -tono and -dono are very archaic terms and wouldn't generally be used in everyday conversation (an exception would be if you're talking about the Imperial family) or only in samurai period dramas.

Mis-using an honourific is usually insulting (-sama towards a young girl would be like calling them 'Princess') and quite a few swear words are derogatory terms for 'you'.

I'm running off an, apparently, incorrect source for my information, so If I'm wrong correct me.

It's not incorrect, just a bit lacking in the fine details, which unfortunately, what Japanese honourifics tend to be.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-05, 09:14 AM

Ah... this is fun...

Let's try an argument from authority :smalltongue::
Eugene Nida (He's the guy you probably don't know of as someone who pioneered translation theory. He also translated the Bible.) said in this piece co-written with Charles Taber

Rather than bemoan the lack of some feature in a language, one must respect the features of the receptor language and exploit the potentialities of the language to the greatest possible extent. Unfortunately, in some instances translators have actually tried to "remake" a language. ... Rather than force the formal structure of one language of one language upon another, the effective translator is quite prepared to make any and all formal changes necessary to reproduce the message in the distinctive structural forms of the receptor language.
It's actually quite interesting to read.

Like the others pointed out, they managed to aptly translate that well (in the manga, at least. I only vaguely recall the dub), but you've got to jump through a bunch of verbal hoops in order to translate -dono. Kenshin constantly calling Kaoru "miss Kaoru" sounds really odd to western ears, particularly when he does so when addressing her.
Kaoru-dono probably sounds really odd to Japanese ears. It also sounds odd to Western ears, but for different (i.e, wrong) reasons. Besides, -dono is really just a formal "courtly" way of saying -san. It elevates the recipient without denigrating the speaker, as -sama can imply.

No one's bothered to explain how they'd handle Kenshin's "de gozaru". Is it too hard? Well, they say show don't tell, so...
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3084/kenshinscan.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5075/kenshinviz.jpg
Exhibit A: This is the scanlation of Kenshin I started the series reading and the main reason I consider the Viz translation to be so dull and flat. It's not perfect; it does a few things I don't like but I do find it a real pleasure to read all the same.
Exhibit B: The same scanlation with the Viz dialogue inserted. (It's not brilliantly done but it serves its purpose.) For comparison, mostly, but bear in mind that Viz is usually quite good about translating SFX, which is the main reason I don't condemn them out of hand.

The French apparently have an institution that doesn't like this and tries to come up with original French terms for things.
L'Académie Française. They're ultimately responsible for the word "courriel" which is abbreviated formal French for email. Supposedly it's quite popular in Quebec. (Courriel, that is, not l'Académie.)

Really? Many English works I've read use the Lord/Lady as a term of great respect (though I've also seen it used as a term of adoration or a term of fear), or to enforce the archaic manner of speaking (Dragonriders of Pern for instance), I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate.
I try to avoid careless usage of Lord and Lady because they are actually real titles awarded or inherited. You can be a bit more free with them in a fantasy setting, of course, unless they have an equally well-defined honours system. I rather see members of the House of Commons addressing each other using -dono even though they aren't supposed to be peers.

I'm curious as to why you're so adamant that every single thing must be changed, and that any and all artifacts of the fact that this was originally produced in Japanese is bad.

I'm also curious about this. People mixing words from diferent languages when there isn't a exact direct translation possible is quite common in real life.

Coup de Grace, Tuxedo, English in general.
Etymologies? Could you show us how these examples entered the language because a translator lacked a native alternative? Otherwise, what's the relevance?

It's usually regarded as impolite to call an older sibling by their first name only.

It's more proper to call them 'Onee-san/Onii-san' or by their first name with the honourific tacked on the end, especially in more formal circumstances.

I'd also like to point out that these terms specifically mean 'older sister/brother' and their use (or lack of) can be important in context or for emotional impact.
This is true only in the Far East. In the West, which is where we're translating to, no such manner exists therefore it is illogical to use brother/sister exclusively. In fact, it's rather clumsy and shouldn't happen.

The free market decides what's right!
The free market likes Big Brother. :smallfrown:

Yes? My copy of Art of War for example leaves all kinds of thing untranslated, like units of measurement or Tao for example, and occasionally adds what word is being translated in parenthesis after the translation presumably to indicate concepts which require different English words to translate in different context but which represent one idea in the original.
Quotes? Examples? I need more to work with than that.

Sure. Just find someone with the same desire who is willing to translate it like that and have them do a scanlation.
Har-de-har. Would that I could... Besides, why can't the scanners just do that? Why should the licensors have to as well? Why should I have to break the law to follow the principles that have been established at the beginning of the (previous) century?

Well can you humor me with a counter-argument? What translation would you suggest?

The fact is that in English you just don't use honorific + first name. You use honorific + last name or even full name ie Mr John Smith or Mr Smith or Lord Smith but never Mr John.

Using original honorifics can give me a much more precise understanding of the character relationships than trying to figure it out from what they tried to translate them to. Thus, I prefer the original honorifics be kept most of the time.
I would think Miss Kaoru would be fine here. English honorifics are compatible with first names (though they mean different things when that happens*). The point is that Kenshin uses the whole de gozaru, sessha, -dono (i.e, stereotypical samurai) speech package which he is affecting. As a result the dialogue isn't supposed to be natural; it's supposed to sound stiff and artificial. That's the whole point. Why fix what ain't broke?

*Do you really want me to go into detail...?

That's the best argument I've heard for keeping Japanese honorifics over switching to an idiomatic translation (and yes you can do an idiomatic translation, it's just harder).
It's a sensible argument in a way, but it only suits a small portion of the target audience, and given the exclusive nature of licences, rather unfair on the rest.

That's pretty easy. Japanese has pretty hard-and-fast rules for the usage of honorifics. Girls would get either -chan or -san depending on who's referring to them, guys would get -chan if they were really young, otherwise I'd be -kun or -san. Teachers, school administrators, and other adults in power would be either -sensei, Sensei, -san or -sama, again depending on who's referring to them. Lords, corporate executives, or people with vast political power would be -tono or -dono. Though given the amount of insults in most conflicts I excpet that a couple of -kohais, misplaced -chans, and even simple lacking of honorifics entirely.
You've more or less got it. So the question becomes why can we go one way but not the other. Honorifics are just there to reflect a relationship of some sort so I have to wonder why it's impossible to illustrate that using English. Perhaps we don't have the same types of relationships they do in Japan. Yes. That must be it. This is the logical conclusion.

I'm running off an, apparently, incorrect source for my information, so If I'm wrong correct me.
OK, OK, so I was being facetious there.

Mis-using an honourific is usually insulting (-sama towards a young girl would be like calling them 'Princess') and quite a few swear words are derogatory terms for 'you'.
All true. Interesting: kisama is the joining of ki (貴 - precious) and sama (様). This explains why it used to be a very formal and polite way of saying "you" but has now become a insult.

EDIT:

It's not incorrect, just a bit lacking in the fine details, which unfortunately, what Japanese honourifics tend to be.
This is actually a very important point. If you're a newcomer then the accepted rebuttal to the "I can't understand these honorifics" is to tell them to read up on the definitions, but the definitions will never be good enough to explain things properly. Furthermore, you're asking someone to apply a definition he learned academically to something as variable as personal relationships. As Jeremy Clarkson so famously says: "What could possibly go wrong?"

Lord Seth

2009-11-05, 12:37 PM

The free market likes Big Brother. :smallfrown:Um, what's so bad about Big Brother? It's practically the same thing as Survivor, except with them in a house instead of on an island. I suppose someone could accuse them of casting less interesting people or for being a rip-off, but I don't see what's so bad about it that it would merit being an example for that.

HamHam

2009-11-05, 12:55 PM

Quotes? Examples? I need more to work with than that.

"Thus one who excels at employing the army may be compared to the shuaijan [snake]. The shuaijan is found on Mt. Ch'ang."

"In general, the Tao of an invader is that when one has penetrated deeply , the army will be unified and the defenders will not be able to conquer you."

"If you carefully nurture them and do not [over-]labor them, their [I]ch'i will be united and their strength will be at maximum."

"In accord with the enemy's disposition (hsing) we impose measures...
Men all know the disposition (hsing) by which we attain victory, but no one knows the configuration (hsing) through which we control the victory. Thus a victorious battle [strategy] is not repeated, the configurations (hsing) of response [to the enemy] are inexhaustible.

Now the army's disposition of force (hsing) is like water.

Thus the army does not maintain any constant strategic configuration of power (shih) water has no constant shape (hsing)."

"He does not understand the Three Armies' tactical balance of power (ch'uan) but undertakes responsiblity for command."

"These five are the Way (Tao) to know victory."

Har-de-har. Would that I could... Besides, why can't the scanners just do that? Why should the licensors have to as well? Why should I have to break the law to follow the principles that have been established at the beginning of the (previous) century?

Because you are apparently the minority? If the majority of people wanted your type of translations, that's what they would be publishing because that's what would sell.

Are you saying that the industry should cater to your minority demographic just because you think your preference is more "technically" correct because some old dead people thought it was the right way to do things?

It's a sensible argument in a way, but it only suits a small portion of the target audience, and given the exclusive nature of licences, rather unfair on the rest.

Again, if you guys were the majority of the market, they would still be printing localizations like they were before.

You've more or less got it. So the question becomes why can we go one way but not the other. Honorifics are just there to reflect a relationship of some sort so I have to wonder why it's impossible to illustrate that using English. Perhaps we don't have the same types of relationships they do in Japan. Yes. That must be it. This is the logical conclusion.

Yes? American culture does not have the same cultural structures and thus does not have the same relationships.

Go compare high school shounen/shoujo with some American show about high school. The social dynamic and how people relate to each other will in may respects be radically different. There will be points of similarity, sure, but also points of vast difference.

This is actually a very important point. If you're a newcomer then the accepted rebuttal to the "I can't understand these honorifics" is to tell them to read up on the definitions, but the definitions will never be good enough to explain things properly. Furthermore, you're asking someone to apply a definition he learned academically to something as variable as personal relationships. As Jeremy Clarkson so famously says: "What could possibly go wrong?"

The answer is to read the nice list at the start that gives you a bare bones idea of what they mean, and then just jump in and start reading. Over time as you read more manga and watch more anime picking up on Japanese social relations will become more natural. Like anything it gets easier with practice.

------------------------

Basically, I don't read manga to read stories set in the US. If I wanted stories set in the US, I would read US books and watch US shows (which I do too). If a manga or anime is set in Japan, I want the translation to continue being set in Japan which to me includes things like using Japanese honorifics. I want to experience Japanese culture through the work I am reading/watching not have the work adapted to fit my culture.

I realize some people want the opposite. For anime, I think this is simple enough because you can localize it in the dub while making the sub weaboo. This should make both camps happy I would thing. If you are making a fansub, you are free to do whatever you yourself prefer, and I think people saying that the fansubbers are doing the translations "wrong" to be ridiculous. If you don't like, just follow a different fansub group that caters to you or wait for the official release which will probably be more like what you are looking for even now (for example I seriously doubt any official sub will ever leave something like nakama untranslated).

For manga this is harder because there is basically only going to be one official release. But that's kind of just the nature of the game. Regardless of what the company does, they lose one part of the audience and I think it is silly to claim that one side is "right" and the other is "wrong" so it all just comes down to which side has more purchasing power. I sympathize if end up on the wrong side of that struggle but sometimes life just isn't fair.

Brother Oni

2009-11-05, 02:15 PM

I try to avoid careless usage of Lord and Lady because they are actually real titles awarded or inherited. You can be a bit more free with them in a fantasy setting, of course, unless they have an equally well-defined honours system. I rather see members of the House of Commons addressing each other using -dono even though they aren't supposed to be peers.

Well the western system of honourifics can be just as impenetrable as the Japanese system when you start delving into it (especially the British). I'd have no idea how you'd translate Monsignor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsignor) or Right Honourable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_honourable) into Japanese and still keep the subtle interferences granted by the title.

This is true only in the Far East. In the West, which is where we're translating to, no such manner exists therefore it is illogical to use brother/sister exclusively. In fact, it's rather clumsy and shouldn't happen.

It depends on your opinion. I'm with HamHam on this - if I'm watching/reading material set in Japanese society, I like having the subtle inferences given by using specific cultural terms.

If the material wasn't Far Eastern cultural specific, then I'm not as concerned as they're not as important.

I'm curious as to how you'd translate Chinese terms for family members into English - for example in English, there's only the word 'aunt' to describe a sister of a parent. In Chinese, there's different words depending on whether they're paternal or maternal, whether they're younger or older than the parent and whether they're blood relatives or in-laws.

This is actually a very important point. If you're a newcomer then the accepted rebuttal to the "I can't understand these honorifics" is to tell them to read up on the definitions, but the definitions will never be good enough to explain things properly. Furthermore, you're asking someone to apply a definition he learned academically to something as variable as personal relationships. As Jeremy Clarkson so famously says: "What could possibly go wrong?"

If you're learning a new language, then it's not surprising that you miss out on the cultural inferences and colloquial meanings to words and phrases, which can only be really learnt with exposure to the originating culture or practising with native speakers.

The Evil Thing

2009-11-06, 07:31 AM

Let's go a different route. Say you put honorifics in... what constitutes an honorific? Pretty much any noun can be stuck on the end of a name and treated as an honorific. Sakamoto-sempai, Mino-kun, Arashi-san, Kano-nii, Ito-kaichou... If a word is on the end of someone's name, does it automatically become impossible to translate? Does it convey some mysterious cultural phenomenon that cannot be expressed in mere words?

Um, what's so bad about Big Brother? It's practically the same thing as Survivor, except with them in a house instead of on an island. I suppose someone could accuse them of casting less interesting people or for being a rip-off, but I don't see what's so bad about it that it would merit being an example for that.
I don't know anything about Survivor and watching one episode of Big Brother was enough to ensure the only exposure I had to it in the future was the incessant media stories about its participants.

"Thus one who excels at employing the army may be compared to the shuaijan [snake]. The shuaijan is found on Mt. Ch'ang."

...

"These five are the Way (Tao) to know victory."
And I just don't see the point in any of those. Why are those words in the text? What purpose are they supposed to serve? Does the translator expect people to arbitrarily drop 'hsing' into their casual sentences? Does he think it'll motivate them to learn ancient Chinese? Does he think it'll motivate them to learn modern Chinese? Who is he anyway?

Even after reading that, there's no way I'm going to remember any of those words by the end of the day.

Because you are apparently the minority? If the majority of people wanted your type of translations, that's what they would be publishing because that's what would sell.

Are you saying that the industry should cater to your minority demographic just because you think your preference is more "technically" correct because some old dead people thought it was the right way to do things?

Again, if you guys were the majority of the market, they would still be printing localizations like they were before.
The majority of people understand Japanese honorifics enough to use them comfortably in everyday speech?

Oh, and Eugene Nida isn't dead. Sorry to bust your bubble but your school of thought is hardly original either. It's alive and well in books like the New King James Bible (and by extension the King James Bible which was in the early 17th Century) If anything, it's my school of thought that's the new one.

Yes? American culture does not have the same cultural structures and thus does not have the same relationships.

Go compare high school shounen/shoujo with some American show about high school. The social dynamic and how people relate to each other will in may respects be radically different. There will be points of similarity, sure, but also points of vast difference.
And the average English speaker is going to appreciate this? "Ah, he's using 'sempai', that means he's acknowledging that he's in the year above and thus is expected to show politeness and respect to his elder and senior. I can't possibly imagine a situation like this in my society; it surely is unique to Japan." Including a foreign word is somehow going to blow away all the confusion and illuminate this guy on the minutiae of Japanese culture and society? Why isn't it better for the translator to modify the speech to reflect this relationship and allow the reader to draw his conclusions by reading in the language he's used all his life. To a non-speaker, honorifics are jargon words, nothing more.

The answer is to read the nice list at the start that gives you a bare bones idea of what they mean, and then just jump in and start reading. Over time as you read more manga and watch more anime picking up on Japanese social relations will become more natural. Like anything it gets easier with practice.
I'm pretty sure even the most conservative proponent of formal equivalence would balk at forcing the reader to study the language before he reads a work for fun.

Basically, I don't read manga to read stories set in the US. If I wanted stories set in the US, I would read US books and watch US shows (which I do too). If a manga or anime is set in Japan, I want the translation to continue being set in Japan which to me includes things like using Japanese honorifics. I want to experience Japanese culture through the work I am reading/watching not have the work adapted to fit my culture.

I realize some people want the opposite. For anime, I think this is simple enough because you can localize it in the dub while making the sub weaboo. This should make both camps happy I would thing. If you are making a fansub, you are free to do whatever you yourself prefer, and I think people saying that the fansubbers are doing the translations "wrong" to be ridiculous. If you don't like, just follow a different fansub group that caters to you or wait for the official release which will probably be more like what you are looking for even now (for example I seriously doubt any official sub will ever leave something like nakama untranslated).

For manga this is harder because there is basically only going to be one official release. But that's kind of just the nature of the game. Regardless of what the company does, they lose one part of the audience and I think it is silly to claim that one side is "right" and the other is "wrong" so it all just comes down to which side has more purchasing power. I sympathize if end up on the wrong side of that struggle but sometimes life just isn't fair.
My argument's primary motivation is that the current localisation policy is unsustainable. Currently fansubs, scanlations and the licensers are appealing to the same market. Companies are competing with pirates, yet as always lack their flexibility or, crucially, their non-existent price tag. It's best to leave the more weeaboo-inclined fans to their own devices and focus on marketing to the population at large. Until that happens, anime fans will continue to be their own nerdy little clique with their incomprehensible 'dialect', shooing away outsiders until they've mastered the lingo.

Well the western system of honourifics can be just as impenetrable as the Japanese system when you start delving into it (especially the British). I'd have no idea how you'd translate Monsignor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsignor) or Right Honourable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_honourable) into Japanese and still keep the subtle interferences granted by the title.
I'm not a native speaker of Japanese so while probably hard, I shy away from saying it's impossible.

It depends on your opinion. I'm with HamHam on this - if I'm watching/reading material set in Japanese society, I like having the subtle inferences given by using specific cultural terms.

If the material wasn't Far Eastern cultural specific, then I'm not as concerned as they're not as important.
There's nothing "subtle" about dropping a foreign word that doesn't belong into your English. If you want subtle, then massage the meaning into the sentence rather than putting up a big sign saying "LOOK HERE THIS DOESN'T TRANSLATE PERFECTLY!!!"

I'm curious as to how you'd translate Chinese terms for family members into English - for example in English, there's only the word 'aunt' to describe a sister of a parent. In Chinese, there's different words depending on whether they're paternal or maternal, whether they're younger or older than the parent and whether they're blood relatives or in-laws.
Does any of that matter? It's just a word. What's wrong with 'aunt'?

If you're learning a new language, then it's not surprising that you miss out on the cultural inferences and colloquial meanings to words and phrases, which can only be really learnt with exposure to the originating culture or practising with native speakers.
What if you're not? What if you just want to read a manga book for fun?

Oslecamo

2009-11-06, 08:08 AM

And I just don't see the point in any of those. Why are those words in the text? What purpose are they supposed to serve? Does the translator expect people to arbitrarily drop 'hsing' into their casual sentences? Does he think it'll motivate them to learn ancient Chinese? Does he think it'll motivate them to learn modern Chinese? Who is he anyway?

ACK! He's trying to increase people's culture! BURN THE HERETIC! Now hand me that book and go breack your back in the fields, ok?:smalltongue:

Language barriers are one of the biggest barriers in society. A translator, above everyone else, should motivate people to learn new languages.

Even after reading that, there's no way I'm going to remember any of those words by the end of the day.

Then why do you worry so much? If you hate so much the story that you're going to forget it in less than 24 hours, a few foreign words won't do any diference.

The majority of people understand Japanese honorifics enough to use them comfortably in everyday speech?

They would, if it wasn't for people who share that kind of view with you, and keep butchering translations left and right.

Oh, and Eugene Nida isn't dead. Sorry to bust your bubble but your school of thought is hardly original either. It's alive and well in books like the New King James Bible (and by extension the King James Bible which was in the early 17th Century) If anything, it's my school of thought that's the new one.

It's still a minority. And there's plenty of minor schools of tought out there that apear and then get necromanced every few years.

And the average English speaker is going to appreciate this? "Ah, he's using 'sempai', that means he's acknowledging that he's in the year above and thus is expected to show politeness and respect to his elder and senior. I can't possibly imagine a situation like this in my society; it surely is unique to Japan." Including a foreign word is somehow going to blow away all the confusion and illuminate this guy on the minutiae of Japanese culture and society? Why isn't it better for the translator to modify the speech to reflect this relationship and allow the reader to draw his conclusions by reading in the language he's used all his life. To a non-speaker, honorifics are jargon words, nothing more.

Speak by yourself. Most people out there can rationalize and reach conclusions on their own. They could even "GASP" go out there and seek a dictionary and improve their minds! BURN THE HERETICS!

And yes, respect for your elders is much less common in western society. During all my learning years so far, my teachers always had an hard time just geting the class geting silent, let alone geting anything resembling respect.

I'm pretty sure even the most conservative proponent of formal equivalence would balk at forcing the reader to study the language before he reads a work for fun.

Yeah! Let's burn all english videogames that are sold in the foreign market!

Actualy why stop at that? Let's burn everything that is written! People shouldn't be forced to know how to read! Oh, wait...

If you truly enjoy something, what you call "study" can easily become "fun".

My argument's primary motivation is that the current localisation policy is unsustainable. Currently fansubs, scanlations and the licensers are appealing to the same market. Companies are competing with pirates, yet as always lack their flexibility or, crucially, their non-existent price tag. It's best to leave the more weeaboo-inclined fans to their own devices and focus on marketing to the population at large. Until that happens, anime fans will continue to be their own nerdy little clique with their incomprehensible 'dialect', shooing away outsiders until they've mastered the lingo.

Good luck with that. Because we "nerdy little clique" are actualy willing to do work.

As for your invisible majority, if they aren't willing to learn one or two new words, they also won't give a damn about what we're discussing here anyway.

Does any of that matter? It's just a word. What's wrong with 'aunt'?

Because it can be tied to a joke. Because it can be tied to a sublte message that will be lost. Because it's the translator's duty to make sure the translation is as faithfull to the original as possible.

What if you're not? What if you just want to read a manga book for fun?
Then go watch cartoon network. If you don't give a damn about the plot, and you'll forget everything by the end of the day, why do you even care what you're seeing? Heck, you're probably better just going out there and hanging out with your friends. Much healthier for the body and mind than siting in front of the TV with your brain shut off.

KnightDisciple

2009-11-06, 08:28 AM

ACK! He's trying to increase people's culture! BURN THE HERETIC! Now hand me that book and go breack your back in the fields, ok?:smalltongue:
Um...The Art of War is by no means the place to "increase someone's culture". It's a book about how to be awesome at winning wars. If I read it, I'm reading it because the thought process behind "how to be awesome at war" is interesting. Not because I want to learn Chinese.

Language barriers are one of the biggest barriers in society. A translator, above everyone else, should motivate people to learn new languages.
Why should someone translating for a pure entertainment medium try to force people to learn a new language?
That's what conscious choice of "I want to learn a new language" is for.

Then why do you worry so much? If you hate so much the story that you're going to forget it in less than 24 hours, a few foreign words won't do any diference.
Of course, since he's still referencing Art of War, there's no story, but that's neither here nor there.
And he didn't mean he'd forget the content of the story, he meant he wouldn't remember the Chinese words specifically.
So unless the whole thing's in Chinese, he'll still remember most of the book.

They would, if it wasn't for people who share that kind of view with you, and keep butchering translations left and right.
...I'm pretty sure what The Evil Thing is proposing is called "translation", not "butchering".
As in, you know, changing words in a book from one language to another.
Not leaving half the words in a novel in a foreign tongue so that someone who just wanted to read a fun book has to do hours of research.

It's still a minority. And there's plenty of minor schools of tought out there that apear and then get necromanced every few years.
...Uh, the school of thought that gave us the King James/New King James translations is, by this point, not some huge majority; if it's not a minority yet, it will be soon.

Speak by yourself. Most people out there can rationalize and reach conclusions on their own. They could even "GASP" go out there and seek a dictionary and improve their minds! BURN THE HERETICS!
No, this is really just lazy "translation". Most people will probably use inference to roughly grasp the meaning, and leave it at that.

And yes, respect for your elders is much less common in western society. During all my learning years so far, my teachers always had an hard time just geting the class geting silent, let alone geting anything resembling respect.
...I'm not even going to open this bag of worms right now.

Yeah! Let's burn all english videogames that are sold in the foreign market!

Actualy why stop at that? Let's burn everything that is written! People shouldn't be forced to know how to read! Oh, wait...

If you truly enjoy something, what you call "study" can easily become "fun".
On the flip side, I shouldn't have to study to try to enjoy a work whose initial premise intrigued me as an entertainment medium.

Good luck with that. Because we "nerdy little clique" are actualy willing to do work.

As for your invisible majority, if they aren't willing to learn one or two new words, they also won't give a damn about what we're discussing here anyway.
Wow, an insinuation/insult of laziness on the other person's part. How original and refreshing in an argument.:smallannoyed:

I don't feel like always learning random Japanese words, and I am giving a damn about what's being discussed here.

Oh wait, that surely invalidates my opinion or something, right?

Because it can be tied to a joke. Because it can be tied to a sublte message that will be lost. Because it's the translator's duty to make sure the translation is as faithfull to the original as possible.
While still actually modifying things to fit the new language.
To use an earlier mentioned subject, I've not heard of Bible translations that go into, say, some new African dialect that leave in random English or Hebrew words.

Then go watch cartoon network. If you don't give a damn about the plot, and you'll forget everything by the end of the day, why do you even care what you're seeing? Heck, you're probably better just going out there and hanging out with your friends. Much healthier for the body and mind than siting in front of the TV with your brain shut off.

This isn't about "not giving a damn about the plot" or "forgetting everything by the end of the day".

It's about wanting to engage a form of entertainment in my native tongue. Bad enough (such as it is) when I'm having to read subs. If I have to read subs, that then have either a text document with extra translations, or special notes all over the screen...yeah.

It's distracting, pointless, and elitist.

Oh, and lazy on the so-called translator's part.

13_CBS

2009-11-06, 08:34 AM

Um...The Art of War is by no means the place to "increase someone's culture".

Given how closely the Art of War is tied to contemporary Chinese Confucianist philosophy, one could easily read the Art of War to study the application of ancient Chinese philosophy.

Prime32

2009-11-06, 08:54 AM

A translator is supposed to do the work in bringing something into another language so you don't have to. That's their job. If you have to speak Chinese to read the English translation of a Chinese work then it's pointless - you could just read the original.

13_CBS

2009-11-06, 08:57 AM

Hmm...a question to those who support leaving in certain Japanese words:

What do you guys think about most English translations of the Bible? (No religion discussions, please.) I don't recall ever seeing any English Bible translations having almost any Hebrew words left in; at most, they're left in the footnotes, to help readers clarify what they're talking about.

Eldan

2009-11-06, 10:20 AM

I don't know if there are any direct hebrew-english translations (there are a few hebrew-german ones, as far as I know, but they are pretty modern inventions), but basically, all the classical translations have gone through three or four languages, so saying something about the hebrew would be just about pointless.

Zeful

2009-11-06, 11:28 AM

...I'm pretty sure what The Evil Thing is proposing is called "translation", not "butchering".
As in, you know, changing words in a book from one language to another.
Not leaving half the words in a novel in a foreign tongue so that someone who just wanted to read a fun book has to do hours of research.
What some people don't, or won't, understand is English and many other languages don't translate proper nouns. Because they represent either a whole concept, someone or something's specific name. So in the Art of War Sun Tzu's name will never be translated, and a good translator will not translate Dao/Tao in reference to the philosiphy as doing so would take a book in and of itself, neither will he translate shonen attack names like Kamehameha, or Neko-ken. It's not lazy it's respect.

No, this is really just lazy "translation". Most people will probably use inference to roughly grasp the meaning, and leave it at that.
"I will turn you into a frog" what meaning is in that statement? In Japanese, it's a really bad pun (given that right after it's said, everyone acts like it's a bad pun). A lot of meaning can be lost in translation and it is significantly more work to do a full idiomatic translation rather than leave a word and explain the specific meaning.

On the flip side, I shouldn't have to study to try to enjoy a work whose initial premise intrigued me as an entertainment medium.No, you shouldn't, but you don't really have the right to complain about another's preferences either.

I don't feel like always learning random Japanese words[...]Tough, every work translated from Japanese by a good translator will be chalk full of Japanese words.

It's about wanting to engage a form of entertainment in my native tongue.And it's a decent expectation but not everything can or will be translated.

Oh, and lazy on the so-called translator's part. A lazy translation is when someone won't pick up a japanese/english dictionary. "All according to keiku (or however it's spelled (it means "plan"))" is lazy translation. "Usagi Yojimbo fired off a kamehameha while teaching the Dao to his students" is not.

Nerd-o-rama

2009-11-06, 11:41 AM

Well, obviously you wouldn't translate proper nouns unless you're trying to place the story in a different setting (something you wouldn't do to The Art of War, but you could hypothetically do to Bleach - I wouldn't, personally). And I guess Dao/Tao counts as a proper noun, at least in this context.

And while I'm on the subject, I'm fairly sure "kamehameha" is a nonsense word, not Japanese.

As for the frog pun, just replace it with a different pun in English. What's so hard about that?

Zeful

2009-11-06, 11:47 AM

Well, obviously you wouldn't translate proper nouns unless you're trying to place the story in a different setting (something you wouldn't do to The Art of War, but you could hypothetically do to Bleach). And I guess Dao/Tao counts as a proper noun, at least in this context.The only time you actually change proper nouns is for things like titles, The Art of War, The Five Rings, The Tale of Genji. Otherwise, you're changing what's been written.

As for the frog pun, just replace it with a different pun in English. What's so hard about that?

Can you think up a frog pun that has to do with transformation?

Draco Dracul

2009-11-06, 12:37 PM

And while I'm on the subject, I'm fairly sure "kamehameha" is a nonsense word, not Japanese.

Kamehameha means roughly "[Turtle Style] Wave Attack" or "Turtle Destruction Wave" if you feel a little more flavorful translation.

HamHam

2009-11-06, 12:52 PM

The Evil Thing

2009-11-06, 12:54 PM

EDIT: @HamHam:
Your post wasn't there when I was typing mine. I'm not ignoring you, but I can't stick around here any longer today. :smallsmile: Feel free to edit any comments you have on this post into yours to save time should you wish to do so.

Language barriers are one of the biggest barriers in society. A translator, above everyone else, should motivate people to learn new languages.
Citation needed. Show me an academic work (preferably by someone knowledgeable in translation theory) that explicitly and unequivocally states the role of a translator is not to render something from one language to another but motivate study in his source language by those in his target language. Go on. You must be getting your insightful academic commentary from somewhere...

Then why do you worry so much? If you hate so much the story that you're going to forget it in less than 24 hours, a few foreign words won't do any diference.
They get in the way. Just, as, using, too, many, punctuation, marks, throws, the, reader, off, too, many, foreign, words, disrupt, the, flow, of, reading.

They would, if it wasn't for people who share that kind of view with you, and keep butchering translations left and right.
On general principle, I refrain from using this acronym but... LOL.

It's still a minority. And there's plenty of minor schools of tought out there that apear and then get necromanced every few years.
Come back and properly discuss translation theory with me when you can spell words like "thought" and "appear". I could sit here and pick your post apart all day but KnightDisciple has very kindly done that for me. Also, I want to stop the quote block from getting too long. Except for one thing...

Then go watch cartoon network. If you don't give a damn about the plot, and you'll forget everything by the end of the day, why do you even care what you're seeing? Heck, you're probably better just going out there and hanging out with your friends. Much healthier for the body and mind than siting in front of the TV with your brain shut off.
Cute. You accuse me of promoting brainlessness since I demand translators use theirs.

Hmm...a question to those who support leaving in certain Japanese words:

What do you guys think about most English translations of the Bible? (No religion discussions, please.) I don't recall ever seeing any English Bible translations having almost any Hebrew words left in; at most, they're left in the footnotes, to help readers clarify what they're talking about.
It honestly depends on the version. I imagine there are a few out there that'll leave in the odd Hebrew (or Greek) word, particularly if it's a proper noun. You're more likely to find them in bibles that prefer formal equivalence such as King James, New American, English Standard and Green's Literal.

What some people don't, or won't, understand is English and many other languages don't translate proper nouns. Because they represent either a whole concept, someone or something's specific name. So in the Art of War Sun Tzu's name will never be translated, and a good translator will not translate Dao/Tao in reference to the philosiphy as doing so would take a book in and of itself, neither will he translate shonen attack names like Kamehameha, or Neko-ken. It's not lazy it's respect.
Proper nouns are a mess and rely on the translator's judgement. It certainly isn't logical to translate a person's name but why is translating Kamehameha disrespectful? Is the creator running around stating that only Japanese-speakers are allowed to understand what the word means?

"I will turn you into a frog" what meaning is in that statement? In Japanese, it's a really bad pun (given that right after it's said, everyone acts like it's a bad pun). A lot of meaning can be lost in translation and it is significantly more work to do a full idiomatic translation rather than leave a word and explain the specific meaning.
In English, it's a really bad cliché. Also, being a lot of work is never an excuse not to do something. If you're being a professional you're getting paid. If you were an engineer and your employer told you to design a dam, you won't give him a picture of a big pile of logs and tell him installing turbines is "significantly more work". :smalltongue: It's the same idea with translation: if you're going to do something, do it properly.

No, you shouldn't, but you don't really have the right to complain about another's preferences either.
Ultimately, proponents of dynamic equivalence will always be at odds with those of formal equivalence. The question is what the majority prefer

A lazy translation is when someone won't pick up a japanese/english dictionary. "All according to keiku (or however it's spelled (it means "plan"))" is lazy translation. "Usagi Yojimbo fired off a kamehameha while teaching the Dao to his students" is not.
OK. Do you consider gems like "Inawari Shiro’s Kame Hime-sama has sent the meat of a renowned Bushi from Izumo no Kuni for you to enjoy." to be valid translations?

Can you think up a frog pun that has to do with transformation?
I can't, but I'm not a writer. More importantly, if you can't do it, then just cut your losses and move on. Consider why the pun was there in the first place; was the writer just doing a throwaway gag or was it an example of a character's poor sense of humour? Adapt in response. Remember Teddy from Persona 4? In the original Japanese he finished his sentences with "kuma" (no points for guess what that means). The translators opted to pepper his dialogue with bear puns - not quite enough to be annoying but just to get the message across.

Kamehameha means roughly "[Turtle Style] Wave Attack" or "Turtle Destruction Wave" if you feel a little more flavorful translation.
You learn something new every day...