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Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 06:20 PM
This came up in another thread, where people were wondering if a high-level 3E character was stronger or weaker than a high-level 4E character. So based on that, a simple challenge: show the lowest level 3E character that can reliably kill the strongest enemy in the 4E monster manual, Orcus.

Yes, I'm aware that this is working on two different rulesets, but then this is an internet forum so we can deal with some tongue-in-cheekness, right? :smallsmile:

This is a link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20997309/Anyone_got_Prince_of_Undeath?pg=last) to the WOTC message boards where somebody posted a slightly-improved stronger version of Orcus. I'm not going to copy/paste his actual stats from the MM (because of copyright reasons) but I suppose that linking to a homebrew variation on the forums of the people owning that copyright shouldn't be a problem.

Of note - he is supposed to be a challenge to a party of four level-30 4E characters. In particular, he has about +23 to initiative, AC of around 50, and 1500 hit points. He also has a close range attack that kills you on a hit, a 20-square (100 foot) aura that damages you every turn, and any ongoing effect on him has a 75% chance of ending each turn. Also of note, if you stay outside that 100 foot radius there isn't all that much he can do to you.

We'll assume that 4E "necrotic" is the same as 3E "negative energy", and that 4E "perception" is the same as 3E "search and spot". Other than that, the only thing that needs translating is saving throws. This is easy: if a creature has a 40 reflex defense in 4E, then he would have a 20 reflex save mod in 3E. So Orcus has saves around +30.

I expect that Cindy or the Test of Spite crew would simply massacre this guy, but maybe I'm wrong. Thoughts welcome!

Chrono22
2009-11-02, 06:22 PM
Let's see...
What are the level limits? Things could get very messy above level 10.

Woodsman
2009-11-02, 06:26 PM
So it's Orcus instead of Demogorgon?

I like squid-baboon man better, honestly.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 06:28 PM
Let's see...
What are the level limits? Things could get very messy above level 10.

The lowest you can think of, but definitely below 20. Maybe we should take in a level-13 character from the Test of Spite, that could work.

Mando Knight
2009-11-02, 06:50 PM
We'll assume that 4E "necrotic" is the same as 3E "negative energy", and that 4E "perception" is the same as 3E "search and spot". Other than that, the only thing that needs translating is saving throws. This is easy: if a creature has a 40 reflex defense in 4E, then he would have a 20 reflex save mod in 3E. So Orcus has saves around +30.

Why a +20 modifier for a 40 defense?

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 06:55 PM
Why a +20 modifier for a 40 defense?

20+1d20 equals 40-1d20.

Hm, no, it doesn't. It should be a +19 modifier, then. Oops. (edit) +18 even, because ties are adjudicated in different directions.

Suppose I cast a fireball. In 3E, this could have a reflex save DC of 29, whereas in 4E, it could have be an attack of "+29 vs reflex". Then in 3E, a character with a +18 to his saves has 50% of making it; whereas in 4E, a character with a 40 reflex defense has a 50% chance of not being affected.

FoE
2009-11-02, 06:56 PM
Kurald, I agree with you that 3.5E monsters are stronger than 4E monsters. But all you're proving with this exercise is that 3.5 PCs advance far more exponentially in power than 4E PCs.

Gametime
2009-11-02, 07:09 PM
20+1d20 equals 40-1d20.

Hm, no, it doesn't. It should be a +19 modifier, then. Oops. (edit) +18 even, because ties are adjudicated in different directions.

Suppose I cast a fireball. In 3E, this could have a reflex save DC of 29, whereas in 4E, it could have be an attack of "+29 vs reflex". Then in 3E, a character with a +18 to his saves has 50% of making it; whereas in 4E, a character with a 40 reflex defense has a 50% chance of not being affected.

The biggest problem I see here is that the math governing how quickly your attacks scale in 4e =/= the math governing how quickly your save DCs scale in 3e.

I'm pretty sure a wizard could finish him off in one turn, though.

Asbestos
2009-11-02, 07:46 PM
Kurald, I agree with you that 3.5E monsters are stronger than 4E monsters. But all you're proving with this exercise is that 3.5 PCs advance far more exponentially in power than 4E PCs.

I'd argue that 3.5 monsters are more powerful because they're built to compete with the ultrapowerful PCs. In order for a mid-high level monster to remain viable it needs to have an increasing amount of resistances, save or die/fail abilities, or obnoxious immunities that render whole classes or class features obsolete (the amount of monsters immune to precision damage for instance)

It should be noted that Orcus is a mechanically faulted monster in much the same way as the 3.x Tarrasque. He looks tough at first glance, but can be easily countered by remotely competent parties/characters. My favorite is the low Epic sorcerer that reverses the instakill power back onto Orcus.

Shadow_Elf
2009-11-02, 09:10 PM
I'd argue that 3.5 monsters are more powerful because they're built to compete with the ultrapowerful PCs. In order for a mid-high level monster to remain viable it needs to have an increasing amount of resistances, save or die/fail abilities, or obnoxious immunities that render whole classes or class features obsolete (the amount of monsters immune to precision damage for instance)

It should be noted that Orcus is a mechanically faulted monster in much the same way as the 3.x Tarrasque. He looks tough at first glance, but can be easily countered by remotely competent parties/characters. My favorite is the low Epic sorcerer that reverses the instakill power back onto Orcus.

A level 1 character can kill Orcus if he uses Touch of Death, provided you equip said character with a brooch of reciprocity. Brooch of Reciprocity > Touch of Death at any level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-03, 01:05 AM
This came up in another thread, where people were wondering if a high-level 3E character was stronger or weaker than a high-level 4E character. So based on that, a simple challenge: show the lowest level 3E character that can reliably kill the strongest enemy in the 4E monster manual, Orcus.

Yes, I'm aware that this is working on two different rulesets, but then this is an internet forum so we can deal with some tongue-in-cheekness, right? :smallsmile:

This is a link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20997309/Anyone_got_Prince_of_Undeath?pg=last) to the WOTC message boards where somebody posted a slightly-improved stronger version of Orcus. I'm not going to copy/paste his actual stats from the MM (because of copyright reasons) but I suppose that linking to a homebrew variation on the forums of the people owning that copyright shouldn't be a problem.

Of note - he is supposed to be a challenge to a party of four level-30 4E characters. In particular, he has about +23 to initiative, AC of around 50, and 1500 hit points. He also has a close range attack that kills you on a hit, a 20-square (100 foot) aura that damages you every turn, and any ongoing effect on him has a 75% chance of ending each turn. Also of note, if you stay outside that 100 foot radius there isn't all that much he can do to you.

We'll assume that 4E "necrotic" is the same as 3E "negative energy", and that 4E "perception" is the same as 3E "search and spot". Other than that, the only thing that needs translating is saving throws. This is easy: if a creature has a 40 reflex defense in 4E, then he would have a 20 reflex save mod in 3E. So Orcus has saves around +30.

I expect that Cindy or the Test of Spite crew would simply massacre this guy, but maybe I'm wrong. Thoughts welcome!I think fairer would be using the (supposedly)biggest, scariest CR 20 monster from 3.x. And one that 3.5 PCs can kill reliably at ECL 13. The Tarrasque. And similarly to ignoring the MacGuffins needed to kill Orcus, we can ignore the Wish that Terry needs in order to stay down. As long as we count Terry's immunity to death effects(and the Carapace) as protecting him from Orcus' insta-gib, and assume the insta-gib never reflects, it looks fairly even to me, with Big T's regen and better damage cancelling out Orcus' higher HP.

nightwyrm
2009-11-03, 01:17 AM
20+1d20 equals 40-1d20.

Hm, no, it doesn't. It should be a +19 modifier, then. Oops. (edit) +18 even, because ties are adjudicated in different directions.

Suppose I cast a fireball. In 3E, this could have a reflex save DC of 29, whereas in 4E, it could have be an attack of "+29 vs reflex". Then in 3E, a character with a +18 to his saves has 50% of making it; whereas in 4E, a character with a 40 reflex defense has a 50% chance of not being affected.

I don't think that's how it translates. You add/subtract 11 from the both numbers, not 20 from one. A 3e fireball with 29 DC is actually +18 vs ref. So a 4e defense of 40 would be about a +29 save.

Let's make it simpler. Say in 3e, a caster casts a spell with DC 12 against a dude with save of +3. The target saves on a 9+ (60%). In 4e the caster would have a +1 (12-11) to hit against a defense of 14 (3+11). So he hits on a 13+ (40%) and misses 60% of the time.

Indon
2009-11-03, 11:13 AM
20+1d20 equals 40-1d20.

Hm, no, it doesn't. It should be a +19 modifier, then. Oops. (edit) +18 even, because ties are adjudicated in different directions.

Suppose I cast a fireball. In 3E, this could have a reflex save DC of 29, whereas in 4E, it could have be an attack of "+29 vs reflex". Then in 3E, a character with a +18 to his saves has 50% of making it; whereas in 4E, a character with a 40 reflex defense has a 50% chance of not being affected.

Noooooo!

This variant in 3.5 evaluates a D20 as being equal to 11 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAndSaveScore s).

A defense of 40 equals a save of +29.

And important question: Movement. A run action in 3.5 multiplies your speed. A run action in 4E slightly boosts your speed. Does Orcus run at 3.5 speed, or 4E speed?

Also, is Orcus autohit on a 20 even if you can't normally hit him? I don't think 4E has that rule, but 3.x does.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-03, 11:22 AM
Let's make it simpler. Say in 3e, a caster casts a spell with DC 12 against a dude with save of +3. The target saves on a 9+ (60%). In 4e the caster would have a +1 (12-11) to hit against a defense of 14 (3+11). So he hits on a 13+ (40%) and misses 60% of the time.
Yes, but you're changing DC12 into a +1 to hit, whereas I'm keeping DC12 as a +12 to hit. In other words, you're changing two numbers by ~10, whereas I'm changing one number by ~20. Result's the same.


This variant in 3.5 evaluates a D20 as being equal to 11 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAndSaveScore s).
Yes, but note that the "magic check" that this is compared to equals spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers, whereas regular spell DC equals spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers plus ten. Again, you can change one number by twenty, or two numbers by ten. I'm doing the latter to avoid having to change more numbers than I have to.



Good question. Let's make him run at 3E speed, because we needn't give the players that additional edge.

[quote]Also, is Orcus autohit on a 20 even if you can't normally hit him? I don't think 4E has that rule, but 3.x does.
Per PHB page 276, a natural 20 is an autohit in 4E.

tcrudisi
2009-11-03, 11:27 AM
Also, is Orcus autohit on a 20 even if you can't normally hit him? I don't think 4E has that rule, but 3.x does.

4e does have that rule, actually. Page 276 of the PHB:

Automatic Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack automatically hits.
It then goes on to talk about how it might be a critical hit and yadda yadda.

Telonius
2009-11-03, 12:00 PM
Important question ... spell resistance. Does 4E Orcus have it? How much of it? I don't know much about 4e, so that "Resist 10 variable" isn't clear to me. If he doesn't have SR, he's toast. Plenty of SR/no save spells that he'd fall to.

Asbestos
2009-11-03, 12:10 PM
SR does not exist in 4e, so he does not have it.

nightwyrm
2009-11-03, 01:08 PM
Yes, but you're changing DC12 into a +1 to hit, whereas I'm keeping DC12 as a +12 to hit. In other words, you're changing two numbers by ~10, whereas I'm changing one number by ~20. Result's the same.

Yes, but note that the "magic check" that this is compared to equals spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers, whereas regular spell DC equals spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers plus ten. Again, you can change one number by twenty, or two numbers by ten. I'm doing the latter to avoid having to change more numbers than I have to.

Per PHB page 276, a natural 20 is an autohit in 4E.

But you're not going to change two numbers with your experiment. Your PCs are already 3e, you don't change their numbers. All you're doing is changing orcus' but you're changing it wrong if you subtract by 20, you'd be overshooting.

In 3e you shoot a fireball at orcus with a DC of 29. But its equivalent in 4e would be a +18 to hit. If orcus' defense is 40, you'd never hit (except on a 20, whatever). So if you translate 4e orcus with a 40 def into 3e, he should have +29 to saves against a DC 29 spell.

The problem in your fireball example is that a 29 DC isn't equal to a +29 vs ref. When you translate a DC to attack roll without subtracting the 11, you're essentially increasing the attack roll by 11, making the attack more powerful than what it should be.

Indon
2009-11-03, 01:41 PM
Yes, but note that the "magic check" that this is compared to equals spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers,
Yes. The Magic Check is the equivalent of the Spell DC, which is 10+Spell Level+Ability Modifier+Etc.

It removes 10 and adds a D20. Again, you see the value of a D20 is between 10 and 11, which makes sense as the average roll of a D20 is 10.5.

When you remove a D20, you add 10-11 to compensate. When you add a D20, you remove 10-11 to compensate.

Saves are rolled, so you add a D20, so you remove 10-11 from the appropriate defense to compensate.

If you similarly wanted to convert a 4E attack into a spell DC, you would remove the D20 and add 10-11.

At no point do you add or remove 10 twice.


Good question. Let's make him run at 3E speed, because we needn't give the players that additional edge.

Man, it'll take a Monk quite a few levels to beat his speed, then!

Telonius
2009-11-03, 02:16 PM
Waves of Exhaustion has SR but no saving throw. One casting of that means he'll move at half speed, and have -6 to STR and DEX.

His Dex starts out at 22. Quickened Waves of Exhaustion -6 to 16, Maximized Shivering Touch to put his Dex into negatives. Next round CDG. Dead Orcus in two rounds.

EDIT: Hm, you'll have to use some shenanigans to Quicken that Waves of Exhaustion, I suppose. Greater Rod of Quicken does it for 170k.

Eldariel
2009-11-03, 02:27 PM
Waves of Exhaustion has SR but no saving throw. One casting of that means he'll move at half speed, and have -6 to STR and DEX.

His Dex starts out at 22. Quickened Waves of Exhaustion -6 to 16, Maximized Shivering Touch to put his Dex into negatives. Next round CDG. Dead Orcus in two rounds.

EDIT: Hm, you'll have to use some shenanigans to Quicken that Waves of Exhaustion, I suppose. Greater Rod of Quicken does it for 170k.

Why don't you Quicken the Shivering Touch and cast normal Waves of Exhaustion instead? Quickened Shivering Touch with Rod of Maximize and Waves of Exhaustion (or hell, Maximized Shivering Touch with standard Rod of Quicken; far more affordable than Greater...or just Quickened Shivering Touch Sudden Maximized).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-03, 02:29 PM
Why don't you Quicken the Shivering Touch and cast normal Waves of Exhaustion instead? Quickened Shivering Touch with Rod of Maximize and Waves of Exhaustion (or hell, Maximized Shivering Touch with standard Rod of Quicken; far more affordable than Greater...or just Quickened Shivering Touch Sudden Maximized).Don't forget the Ogre Skeleton armed with a Huge Scythe to actually kill Orcus. Once he's paralyzed, no need for the caster to get close.

Telonius
2009-11-03, 02:50 PM
I was thinking Waves first, since it doesn't even involve an attack. That lowers his Dex (and Touch AC), making it more likely for you to hit him with Shivering Touch. Of course if you have a high enough attack bonus it won't matter anyway, but bumping up the percentages a little never hurt.

Asbestos
2009-11-03, 02:52 PM
No such thing as Touch AC in 4e. Theoretically, reducing his Str and Dex would do nothing since more often than not monster abilities seem little tied to their attack/defenses.

Edit: Even if his Dex did affect his AC, as soon as it goes below his Int it'd become moot.

Telonius
2009-11-03, 02:57 PM
Hm, in that case, would any 3.5 touch spells even function in this scenario, or would they just use his regular AC as equal to his touch AC for purposes of the spell?

nightwyrm
2009-11-03, 03:00 PM
Well, how are you guys planning to translating changes in orcus' prime stats into changes in his attacks and defenses stats? As Asbestos said, in 4e the two don't really have anything to do with each other.

edit: I think the equivalent of touch AC in 4e would be ref, wouldn't it?

Asbestos
2009-11-03, 03:02 PM
Well, how are you guys planning to translating changes in orcus' prime stats into changes in his attacks and defenses stats? As Asbestos said, in 4e the two don't really have anything to do with each other.

edit: I think the equivalent of touch AC in 4e would be ref, wouldn't it?
Ref makes sense, its an easy substitute.

nightwyrm
2009-11-03, 03:05 PM
Also, how are you gonna translate actions? Does orcus still get his standard/move/minor? How bout action points?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-03, 03:06 PM
I've built an Archivist in the past that could fly at speed 60, with a greatsword, immune to damage, 24/7. I'm not sure how Orcus fights, but...

Not to mention the shivering touch bomb, the psion ego whipping sadist... The list goes on. If Orcus's Cha is under 30, I can do it in 1 round with a psion... Outside of the test of spite.

Then there's the odd Hulking hurler build, the 1d2 crusader, and of course, who can forget Pun Pun?

However, I'd like to think my favorite?

Wizard 3 / Ardent 2 / Subverted Psion 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Cerebremancer 2

Manifests as an Ardent 9.
Casts as a Wizard 6. (CL 9)

Uses Taint for wizard spell DC. Cast a 3rd level save or lose with a DC in the range of "Orcus needs a 20". If it fails, Quicken a 3rd level save or lose from a rod of lesser quicken. If it fails, Manifest Anticipatory Strike and do it again.

There's a 159,999/160,000 chance. (odds of any roll but 4 nat 20's)

jiriku
2009-11-03, 03:08 PM
If converted to 3.5 he'd have to have a touch AC.

Let's see, how about a 10th level dragonblood sorcerer with empower, practical metamagic (empower), sudden maximize, plus shivering touch, arcane fusion, spectral hand, summon undead x, and true strike. Cast your spectral hand and summon an undead minion precombat. Begin combat outside the 100' kill zone. Round 1, cast arcane fusion for a true strike and an empowered sudden maximized shivering touch, delivered via the spectral hand. Direct hit. Orcus takes 18 + 1.5 * 3d6 Dex damage. Assuming he is helpless, direct your minion to move up to him. Coup de grace on round 2. If he has a couple points of Dex left, back away, then hit him again on round 2.

An 8th level sorcerer could do the same, but would need a lesser metamagic rod of quicken and the ACF permitting himto quicken a few spells per day.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-03, 03:09 PM
Well, how are you guys planning to translating changes in orcus' prime stats into changes in his attacks and defenses stats? As Asbestos said, in 4e the two don't really have anything to do with each other.

edit: I think the equivalent of touch AC in 4e would be ref, wouldn't it?

Yes usually, touch AC is emulated with reflex: Ray of Frost.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-03, 03:11 PM
An 8th level sorcerer could do the same, but would need a lesser metamagic rod of quicken and the ACF permitting himto quicken a few spells per day.

Lesser rods of quicken spell cost more than an 8th level sorceror's entire WBL. It's 90% of a level 9 sorceror's... and about 50% of a level 10's.