Swordsage Build - Weapons and Feats

[ghashxx]

Okay, so first time running Swordsage and I'm wanting to do a decent job but I'm starting to run into conflicting interests when it comes to my weapon choices. With my low Str I need to be using Weapon Finesse to apply, which definitely limits my weapon my choices. At the same time I'm also wanting to use Shadow Hand a lot for the added Dex boost to damage. So using a short sword is great and all, but improved crit with a Rapier, especially with Insightful Strike towards Diamond Mind at 14th level, would also be really great. But splitting my primary weapons is going to cost a lot of money, and I'm not certain how accessible stores are going to be. So should I just go short sword and say forget the other discipline weapons? Also, I've gone with maxing out armor using a +5 Moderate Fortified Breast Plate made from Blue Ice...which is wicked expensive leaving me with only 20,560gp for all the rest of my gear including my weapons.

As far as the feats go. I try to keep my characters from going the trip-monkey type min-max routes, but at the same time should I be considering concentrating on TWF instead of the tactical stuff like Gloom Razor and Robilar's Gambit?

And btw, the first thing I'm doing with my next 36,000 is grabbing a +6 Wisdom

Following is the full line up of the character build out to level 15.

Str-12
Dex-18
Con-16
Wis-20
Int-16
Cha-11

Human
1. Swordsage
• Weapon Focus Shadow Hand
• Feats
• Human: Combat Reflexes
• 1st : Adaptive Style
2. Fighter
• Bonus: Weapon Finesse
3. Fighter
• 3rd : Shadow Blade
• Bonus: Martial Study - Devoted Spirit - Foe Hammer
4. Swordsage
• Dex +1
5. Swordsage
6. Swordsage
• Insightful Strike : Shadow Hand
• Improved Combat Reflexes
7. Swordsage
8. Swordsage
• Wis +1
9. Swordsage
• Martial Stance - Devoted Spirit - Thicket of Blades
10. Swordsage
• Defensive Stance : Diamond Mind
11. Swordsage
12. Swordsage
• Wis +1
• Improved Crit: Elven Court Blade
13. Swordsage
14. Swordsage
• Insightful Strike : Diamond Mind
15. Swordsage
• Robilar's Gambit


Blue maneuvers are what I generally have readied
• Desert Wind
• 1st Stance – Flame’s Blessing
• 3rd Strike – Death Mark
• 4th Strike – Fire Snake
• 5th Counter – Leaping Flame
• Diamond Mind
• 3rd Stance – Pearl Black Doubt
• 2nd Strike – Emerald Razor
• 3rd Counter – Mind over Body
• 4th Strike – Ruby night blade
• 5th Strike – Disrupting Blow
• 6th Strike – Greater insightful Strike
• 6th Boost – Moment of Alacracity
• Shadow Hand
• 1st Stance – Child of Shadow
• 5th Stance – Step of the Dancing Moth
• 3rd Strike – Strength Drain Strike
• 4th Strike – Obscuring Shadow Veil
• 5th Boost – Shadow Stride
• 6th Strike – Stalker in the Night
• Stone
• 3rd Strike – Bonecrusher
• 2nd Strike – Mountain Hammer
• 5th Strike – Elder Mountain Hammer

[Gametime]

Gloom Razor and Robilar's Gambit are both very respectable feats, and I'd recommend both of them over a focus on TWF. Dual wielding as an initiator isn't really worth it unless you're focusing heavily on Tiger Claw, since most of the other disciplines don't reward you for wielding two weapons.

A high wisdom is nice, but I'd focus on pumping Dex for attacks and damage first. Wisdom is a secondary stat for swordsages, not a primary one.

[Darrin]

Robilar's Gambit at 3rd level? I think that has a +12 BAB prereq.

Try an unbonded Sunsword from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. +1 enhancement, 3000 GP, counts as wielding either a bastard sword or a shortsword.

If that's not available, then any weapon + Adaptive Aptitude property should work for the purposes of Shadow Blade. Kaorti Elven Courtblade, for example, is 2H and finessable, 18-20/x4 Crit. Requires EWP, though... not sure you really need Extra Readied Maneuver, so you could fit it in there, I suppose.

You can also add the Feycraft template (DMGII) to a weapon to make it finessable, but this also drops the damage by one step.

If you need TWF, pick up Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC, 8000 GP).

[Draz74]

Darrin has good specific advice (and Gametime too), but here's general advice: get used to the idea that you'll have to narrow your focus. Swordsage is such a flexible class, there are always more things you want to be able to do than can fit on one character.

[ghashxx]

Thanks for pointing out the Robilar's Gambit goof I made Darrin, I've changed the set up so it actually works, resulting in my 2nd bonus feat from fighter laying wide open. Now this adaptive property I could add to any weapon, what book is that from?

[Darrin]

Now this adaptive property I could add to any weapon, what book is that from?

Sorry, brain fart. I meant Aptitude weapon. Tome of Battle, p. 148.

It still looks like you're trying to do too much. Combat Reflexes and Improved Combat Reflexes, for example... that sounds like a AoO build, which should use a reach weapon. So you'd want Spiked Chain for that (in which case EWP would work well as your 2nd bonus feat). If you want to go AoO, then consider a dip into Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter for Expansion/reach.

What exactly do you need Gloom Razor for? This doesn't look like a sneak attack/stealthy/flanker type build. Stand Still is good for an AoO Lockdown build, although Martial Study + Martial Stance to pick up Thicket of Blades would work really well with Imp. Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit.

Insightful Strike: Shadow Hand... hmm, I'm not a big fan of the Shadow Hand strikes, most of which involve a Fort save that doesn't scale well. I think you get more bang out of the Diamond Mind strikes.

[Saintheart]

This might be something you've already looked at, but how come you're massing all of your armor bonuses into one +5 breastplate? Personally, I found it's more cost-effective to stack the bonuses from a +1 Natural Armor Amulets and a +1 Rings of Protection together with a +3 armor, rather than spend all that cash on a +5 item. (Of course, you could just be spending that cash anyway...) I could be wrong, of course...:smalleek:

[ghashxx]

Sorry, brain fart. I meant Aptitude weapon. Tome of Battle, p. 148.

It still looks like you're trying to do too much... AoO build, which should use a reach weapon. So you'd want Spiked Chain for that (in which case EWP would work well as your 2nd bonus feat)... dip into Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter for Expansion/reach.

...Martial Study + Martial Stance to pick up Thicket of Blades would work really well with Imp. Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit.

The aptitude weapon quality is indeed amazing for any swordsage, I'll be putting that on my weapon of choice. And as for the psychic warrior, psychic is one of the very few things that we're not allowed to use, more's the pity.
I've often had problems with trying to do too much, so the really difficult part comes now with the option of using the 2h elven courtblade for it's great crit range, or a spiked chain for its reach boost helping out the AoO scheme. I doubt I'll have the money to have two decent enchanted weapons. I'm leaning towards the courtblade for it's serious damage potential, especially when combined with "crit only" enhancements.

And the thicket of blades stance is absolutely beautiful


This might be something you've already looked at, but how come you're massing all of your armor bonuses into one +5 breastplate? ...more cost-effective to stack the bonuses from a +1 Natural Armor Amulets and a +1 Rings of Protection together with a +3 armor

Totally an amazing idea. I can get even better AC for still less price, genius!! Can't believe I've never used this before with other characters.

[Master_Rahl22]

I agree with everything said so far. Dex is your primary, not Wis. Dex gives you more AoOs, more AC, more attack with Weapon Finesse, more damage with Shadow Blade, higher initiative, better Reflex saves, better Hide/Move Silently. Wis gives you more AC, better Will saves, and better Spot/Listen. Keep them both high since they're both helpful, but Dex is the single best stat to have in 3.5 and you have a character who can focus on Dex very well, so run with it.

My Swordsages tend to focus on Setting Sun and Shadow Hand since it's part of what differentiates them from Warblades. Diamond Mind is also a great discipline. Most of the others you just need to cherry pick maneuvers from since Tiger Claw is decent but offers the most to somebody using TWF, Stone Dragon blows in general, and Desert Fire is focused on the single most common resistance for monsters to have.

One neat trick is Robilar's Gambit + Child of Shadow so they get a bonus to hit your AC, but it still might not matter if they miss due to concealment. Oh, and if you're using Insightful Strike and its big brother, it doesn't matter what damage your weapon does.

[AstralFire]

I will note that you can get Wis to Attack with a feat as well, though only simple weapons. Works out well for me since spears are apparently 'simple' and they're my favorite weapon.

[ghashxx]

I'm finding it incredibly difficult to keep my AC up there while still allowing my Dex to grow. For example, a Blue Ice +3 Chain Shirt is AC 7 and allows +5 dex AC modifier, with the exotic material cost being 750. I don't like spending money or level dependant ability increases towards Dex when it won't also increase my AC. So how far down should I decrease the armor I'm using? Should I move all the way down to leafweathe leather (RotW) allowing a +7 dex bonus to AC? As I'm writing this I think this is my best option, to go with magical leafweave leather and make it nimble (MIC, additional +1 dex) later on when I can afford to buy extra Dex.

And Astral, where is this feat allowing wisdom to be [U]added[U] to attack roll? I know there's stuff for wis to replace dex for ranged attacks and insightful strike adds wis to damage, but I've never seen a feat for wis added to the attack roll.

[Eldariel]

Just get a Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) eventually, further enhance it with Nimbleness and profit. That can accomodate your 28 Dex and you won't be exceeding that before ~17-18.

It also happens to give you the best composite AC in the game, being a Chainmail with +8 Dex (for a total of +13 before magic is accounted for). And really, it's not the end of the world if you have bit more Dex than your armor can accomodate (though at that point, consider Bracers of Armor instead; I prefer armors for all the swell abilities tho).

[AstralFire]

I'm finding it incredibly difficult to keep my AC up there while still allowing my Dex to grow. For example, a Blue Ice +3 Chain Shirt is AC 7 and allows +5 dex AC modifier, with the exotic material cost being 750. I don't like spending money or level dependant ability increases towards Dex when it won't also increase my AC. So how far down should I decrease the armor I'm using? Should I move all the way down to leafweathe leather (RotW) allowing a +7 dex bonus to AC? As I'm writing this I think this is my best option, to go with magical leafweave leather and make it nimble (MIC, additional +1 dex) later on when I can afford to buy extra Dex.

And Astral, where is this feat allowing wisdom to be [U]added[U] to attack roll? I know there's stuff for wis to replace dex for ranged attacks and insightful strike adds wis to damage, but I've never seen a feat for wis added to the attack roll.

Intuitive Attack or w/e from BoED. And note I never said 'added' - it's just the Wis equivalent of Weapon Finesse, albeit for all Simple weapons rather than Light weapons.

Seriously, there is so much good crap in that book if you ignore its terrible sections on philosophy and are just looking for some cool, useful, but not necessary character options.

[ghashxx]

Well I think I'm all set on this class. You've all definitely given me a lot to think about from how Shadow strikes all give a fort save with semi-lousy passing saves, to how I need to split up my AC bonuses, that even for a Swordsage the most important thing is dex, some areas like AoO to concentrate on, and the reminder that I can use the pre-made armors like celestial armor which is fantastic. Thanks a lot!