How do you deal with a scammer?

[Zeb The Troll]

Anyone have any good advice on dealing with scammers?

We signed up for a magazine service. Shortly thereafter we got a call from another magazine service (who did not self identify) confirming our order, credit card number, and address. We are now being billed by both of them. We have cancelled every single credit card payment that has gone to the second, scammer, service, but now they are petitioning the credit card company to have those payments reinstated because they have our voice on file acknowledging the order. Additionally, they sent out a form letter telling us we had 7 days to cancel and we could do it by phone at their customer service number. Only, they NEVER answered their customer service number and we left so many unreturned messages that their voice mail box stopped taking any further messages.

The credit card company forwarded the scammer's rebuttal for the cancellation of charges and told us that we have to respond in writing pretty quickly. We are doing precisely this, but, aside from explaining to them, but more formally worded, the same thing as I've just posted here, I'm not sure what recourse we have.
Note, this is not a request for legal advice, just advice. Links to official websites that explain how to deal with this kind of thing would be helpful.

[golentan]

If you have records (phone records are good) that you called them, include a copy of those and a copy of the letter in your response to the credit card company. Keep the original.

In general, never give out or confirm private information when you've been contacted, especially without identifying them. One of the most common scams around involves calling someone, claiming to be bank of whatever, and asking for account information. It sounds like you were victim of a variation of that, though you want to look into how they got your information in the first place. That is a leak that needs to be cut out at the root as soon as possible, to mix metaphors.

I'm actually surprised that they're fighting you on this. Most scams don't deal well with any sort of illumination, and after confirming your number it would actually make more sense for a conventional scammer to make you think it was the original magazine and go around making purchases with it.

For a website, I don't know how good the information here is (the few pages I've consulted seem fine) but you might want to look over the identity theft section on *edit: removed. While I was browsing, it started asking me for personal information. Nevermind.* But I'm more used to looking at this stuff from the other side.

[Pyrian]

Wait, did they call you and ask for your credit number, or already have it? How about your order number? I'm wondering whether and to what degree you were "sold out" by the company you placed the order with, or if it was just a phishing attempt you swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

One thing to consider is that they're probably doing this to a lot of people so you might be able to gather up complainants.

[Zeb The Troll]

Wait, did they call you and ask for your credit number, or already have it? How about your order number? I'm wondering whether and to what degree you were "sold out" by the company you placed the order with, or if it was just a phishing attempt you swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

One thing to consider is that they're probably doing this to a lot of people so you might be able to gather up complainants.See, that's how we fell for it. We did not have to provide anything. They already had the information they needed. All they needed from us was to get the "Yes" on tape in response to "Is this correct?"

EDIT: Which actually brings up another issue, besides "how the hell did you get my cc#!?" and that's the fact that I've always had all my phones on the Do Not Call registry since its launch. They had no business cold calling me to begin with.

[golentan]

See, that's how we fell for it. We did not have to provide anything. They already had the information they needed. All they needed from us was to get the "Yes" on tape in response to "Is this correct?"

EDIT: Which actually brings up another issue, besides "how the hell did you get my cc#!?" and that's the fact that I've always had all my phones on the Do Not Call registry since its launch. They had no business cold calling me to begin with.

Which, if they're claiming you had business with them, doesn't apply. The do not call list basically applies to cold calls only.

Again, in the future don't give or confirm private information when you're called. Always say "I'll call you back at what I have as your number" and don't listen if they then try to give a different number from what you had.

Do try to figure if you've been sold out or it is a straight phisher. Off hand, I'd guess they're probably they're trying to stall the cancellation of payment long enough to disappear with the money and leave the CC company holding the bill. I can't think of any other reason that a scammer would stick around to file something.

And as Pyrian says, they'll be doing this with hundreds or thousands of people, and the complaints will almost certainly make it clear it's a scam. What you then would have to worry about is that the cards don't want to lose money and will try to stick you with the bill. If there's a record of you agreeing to the financial information there may not be anything you can do to stop that.

[Zeb The Troll]

Which, if they're claiming you had business with them, doesn't apply. The do not call list basically applies to cold calls only.Right, which was my point. We had never done business with them. They had no business calling in the first place.


Again, in the future don't give or confirm private information when you're called. Always say "I'll call you back at what I have as your number" and don't listen if they then try to give a different number from what you had.Lesson learned already, but that doesn't help after the fact.


Do try to figure if you've been sold out or it is a straight phisher. Off hand, I'd guess they're probably they're trying to stall the cancellation of payment long enough to disappear with the money and leave the CC company holding the bill. I can't think of any other reason that a scammer would stick around to file something.

And as Pyrian says, they'll be doing this with hundreds or thousands of people, and the complaints will almost certainly make it clear it's a scam. What you then would have to worry about is that the cards don't want to lose money and will try to stick you with the bill. If there's a record of you agreeing to the financial information there may not be anything you can do to stop that.This is the part that sucks, potentially. It is actually common practice for companies to have a third party call back and confirm, on tape, that you did indeed authorize a charge or a change in service (i.e. the phone companies often do this) so it didn't seem abnormal when this company called up and said basically, "We'd like to confirm your order for some magazines. Is this your credit card number? (gives correct number) And is this your address? (gives correct address)." There were no alarms because we didn't have to give the information back out to anyone.

It's possible we may have to pursue legal action against both companies. The scammer for illegally obtaining our information and the company we actually ordered from for giving it to them in the first place. (It is my understanding that no business is allowed to share credit information without written consent from the cardholder, which I am positive they do not have.)

[daggaz]

Get a lawyer, and do it fast. Also, contact the state attourney general's office. Credit card fraud is a big crime and they will react to it. Finally, cut up your credit cards and stay out of that mess in the first place. Need a loan, get it from your bank with sane terms.

[Zeb The Troll]

Get a lawyer, and do it fast. Also, contact the state attourney general's office. Credit card fraud is a big crime and they will react to it. Finally, cut up your credit cards and stay out of that mess in the first place. Need a loan, get it from your bank with sane terms.Here's the deal, though, with that tape, how do we prove it was fraud?

And no, we won't be cutting up credit cards. We're working very hard at getting our credit rating up so that when the time comes to buy our next house/car/boat/motorcycle we can get a decent interest rate. You can't get the top credit rating without a credit card. Besides, mine's at 9.9% and hers is at something like 6.9% so we're not getting raked over the coals like a lot of people. And her credit card company (the one we've been dealing with for this) has been very responsive on top of having a good rate. So even if we were to cut back (we only have three now, hers, mine, and ours), hers is the one we'd keep.

EDIT: Turns out Pyrian's right. We're not the only ones. This guy (http://www.ripoffreport.com/Credit-Card-Fraud/WORLD-WIDE-READERS-S/world-wide-readers-service-rip-2fa56.htm) has almost exactly the same story.

[AstralFire]

Good luck with that, in any case.

[KuReshtin]

Fast talking cold-callers are sneaky as hell. They are told to talk so fast and bombard you with enough information that you lose track of things and then catch you off guard when it comes to the legally binding question that gets you stuck in a legally binding contract.


I had someone call me up about 'upgrading my current phone contract', where I just happened to catch the guy out before giving any information to him.

He called and introduced himself as calling from some copmany that was called something almost like my current mobile phone provider, and asked me if I was interested in upgrading my current contract.
Since I hadn't clearly made out what company he was calling from, I asked him to clarify again, and when he replied with the company name again, it wasn't my current phone company, so I asked him what phone companies his company represented, at which point he had to agree that it was for a few of the rival phone companies, and had nothing to do with my provider.
At that point, I got a bit snarky with him, because it was at the end of a long work day, and I clarified again with him that he had nothing to do with my current provider, to which he answered that I was correct.
Then I again asked him, to make absolutely clear, that it was in fact not an upgrade of my current contract, but that he wanted me to sign up for a completely new contract for a completely new provider. Again, he had to grudgingly agree to that.
When he did that, I told him straight away that I wasn't interested, and then he tried with the sales pitch on how much cheaper it'd be if I switched and all that.
Of course, I'd just renewed my current contract, and had got a discount of about 50% on the monthly fee, so there was no way he could compete.

Had I not paid attention when he skimmed through the company name at the beginning of the call, I might have been stuck with two different phone contracts at the same time, most likely being stuck with the new one for 18 months.

[Katana_Geldar]

I used to get calls like that from Citibank when my stepdad transfered his phone account to me. They sound legit, but why would your bank be cold calling you on an old number?

After handing it over to him a few times, later on I just said that he wasn't interested and to stop calling.

Cold calls happen at the most inconvienient times, I used to get them in the lunch rush when I worked at the counter at a takeaway shop while I was by myself and had to handle all the customers. :smallfurious:

My favourite method of handling cold callers? Jerry Seinfeld (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hllDWSbuDsQ)

[Jack Squat]

When forwarded the rebuttal, is there a company name on it anywhere? If so, Google it and make reference in your letter to how they're reported as a scam on whatever site(s).

Have they actually sent you magazines, or are they just taking the money and running? If the latter, it can be seen as a breach of (verbal) contract. If the former, the company generally has to have a way to let you cancel the order part-way through the contract if on a month-by-month basis, but you'll probably lose whatever money they've already billed you, and perhaps some cancellation fees.

[Zeb The Troll]

When forwarded the rebuttal, is there a company name on it anywhere? If so, Google it and make reference in your letter to how they're reported as a scam on whatever site(s).

Have they actually sent you magazines, or are they just taking the money and running? If the latter, it can be seen as a breach of (verbal) contract. If the former, the company generally has to have a way to let you cancel the order part-way through the contract if on a month-by-month basis, but you'll probably lose whatever money they've already billed you, and perhaps some cancellation fees.We are getting the magazines. Some of them duplicates of those we chose with the other company. There is no contractual way to cancel the subscription service outside of that 7 day window, which they fouled by not answering their phones during those 7 days, though we did leave messages. Problem is that we can't prove that we did and if they're unscrupulous, they won't volunteer said proof. And it's not a month by month contract, it's a two year contract paid on a monthly basis.

As to citing their poor track record, I have done exactly that. Here is an excerpt of the counter rebuttal we're preparing to send to the credit card company...

Furthermore, there is evidence that I am not the only person who has had unfortunate dealings with this company. While one person on the internet with a bad experience does not necessarily make a company bad, this person’s story is nearly identical to mine which leads me to believe that there are likely others who have experienced this very same thing from this very same company. http://www.ripoffreport.com/Credit-Card-Fraud/WORLD-WIDE-READERS-S/world-wide-readers-service-rip-2fa56.htm

As a final mention, I would like to add that the Denver Better Business Bureau (BBB) gives this company an “F” rating for several reasons, including multiple reports of billing and collection issues, contract issues, and sales practice issues. In all, the Denver BBB has more than sixty (60) complaints on file for WWRS since 2004, more than half of which are unresolved. http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/magazine-sales-by-telephone/world-wide-readers-services-in-denver-co-55001622

[Archonic Energy]

We are getting the magazines. Some of them duplicates of those we chose with the other company.

damn, theoretically they are providing you with the service you "agreed" to, they may not be breaking the law (only it's spirit).

i'd suggest obtaining professional help.
from a lawyer.

[Zeb The Troll]

damn, theoretically they are providing you with the service you "agreed" to, they may not be breaking the law (only it's spirit).

i'd suggest obtaining professional help.
from a lawyer.I know. What's worse is the magazines they say we "chose" are so not magazines we would ever read. Seriously, anyone who's ever met Alarra would know she'd never buy into Elle or Cosmopolitan for cryin' out loud. Yet they clutter my mailbox regularly and I can't make them stop or send them back, as much as I'd love to. Heck, I would be happy if the credit card company would just respect our wishes to not honor the payment and let the WWRS people take us to court. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. WE have to take THEM to court if we want to get anything resolved. Based on Alarra's parents' luck with the court system (their lawsuit has been going on for several years now and the legal fees are now more than the lawsuit itself was for, and there's no end in sight :smallsigh:) I have little confidence that justice would actually be served, at least not before going bankrupt myself.

[V'icternus]

Man, that sucks...

In Australia, your legal costs would generally be part of the settlement they'd have to pay you if you won.

Are you certain this isn't the case in America? (I've studied Australian Law, but my studies barely touched on American Law. Both are fairly similar in key ways, though...)

[Jack Squat]

We are getting the magazines. Some of them duplicates of those we chose with the other company. There is no contractual way to cancel the subscription service outside of that 7 day window, which they fouled by not answering their phones during those 7 days, though we did leave messages. Problem is that we can't prove that we did and if they're unscrupulous, they won't volunteer said proof. And it's not a month by month contract, it's a two year contract paid on a monthly basis.

As to citing their poor track record, I have done exactly that. Here is an excerpt of the counter rebuttal we're preparing to send to the credit card company...

Furthermore, there is evidence that I am not the only person who has had unfortunate dealings with this company. While one person on the internet with a bad experience does not necessarily make a company bad, this person’s story is nearly identical to mine which leads me to believe that there are likely others who have experienced this very same thing from this very same company. http://www.ripoffreport.com/Credit-Card-Fraud/WORLD-WIDE-READERS-S/world-wide-readers-service-rip-2fa56.htm

As a final mention, I would like to add that the Denver Better Business Bureau (BBB) gives this company an “F” rating for several reasons, including multiple reports of billing and collection issues, contract issues, and sales practice issues. In all, the Denver BBB has more than sixty (60) complaints on file for WWRS since 2004, more than half of which are unresolved. http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/magazine-sales-by-telephone/world-wide-readers-services-in-denver-co-55001622

The letter excerpt looks good...I mean, I'm just a college student and not a member of any bank management or a lawyer of any type, but I'd buy it. 'course, I'd also have investigated the company once the cancellation of payment was requested.

Now, continuing down the "not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night" line, In Principles of Corporation Law by Joseph C. France, it says that subscriptions by fraud may be cancelled at any time. And that the contract has to "state everything with strict and scrupulous accuracy, and not only to abstain from stating as a fact that which is not so, but to omit no one fact within their knowledge..."

Now, that section is talking about stock issuance, not magazine subscriptions, but I would imagine similar requirements apply for any contract. Since the contract presented was that one phone call probably didn't cover all the bases (company name, subscription choices, cost, payment method, cancellation policies, etc.), I wouldn't think you'd be legally bound to the deceptive contract. If it'd help your case, see if you can get a copy of the phone log detailing that you called their service line several times within the allotted time for cancellation.

Would you want to pursue criminally charging them. Identity theft and fraud would seem to be good places to start.

[Thes Hunter]

Was the terms and conditions of the contract spelled out in the phone conversation or anything you signed that went to them?

I ask this, because they may have you agreeing to the first payments, but not to the full 2 year contract. So there may be no legal binding for you to continue the contract.


*hugs*

[Supagoof]

Here's the deal, though, with that tape, how do we prove it was fraud?

And no, we won't be cutting up credit cards. We're working very hard at getting our credit rating up so that when the time comes to buy our next house/car/boat/motorcycle we can get a decent interest rate. You can't get the top credit rating without a credit card. Besides, mine's at 9.9% and hers is at something like 6.9% so we're not getting raked over the coals like a lot of people. And her credit card company (the one we've been dealing with for this) has been very responsive on top of having a good rate. So even if we were to cut back (we only have three now, hers, mine, and ours), hers is the one we'd keep.

EDIT: Turns out Pyrian's right. We're not the only ones. This guy (http://www.ripoffreport.com/Credit-Card-Fraud/WORLD-WIDE-READERS-S/world-wide-readers-service-rip-2fa56.htm) has almost exactly the same story.
Zeb - turns out your focusing on the wrong part of the issue. A verbal contract caught on tape without consent is in-admissable in a court of law. Is there a part of that phone conversation where you remember and announcement like "This calls is being taped for....purposes?". You also have a right to ask for a copy of that message from the CC company (if that's what they are using to verify that it isn't a fraud charge.).

So that part shouldn't even be admissable to your credit card company as proof, and if they are accepting it then you may want to speak with someone higher then a rep when you call your CC.

Second - they informed you that they would send written notice...and they didn't. Unless they have the receipt from the mail carrier where someone at your place signed for the written notice that they sent, they are also in breach of the "supposed contract".

I would continue to work with the CC company about squashing these charges. The 3rd thing is proof of the charge, which without a signature means nothing.

Also - call your phone company. You should be able to get a list of the calls during that time frame of both incoming and outgoing calls made. That alone is proof that you did indeed call them on multiple occasions. Once you have that, fax it over to your credit card company.

There are a TON of laws that protect citizens from fraudulent charges, and most CC companys make more then enough that even the slightest complaint about a fraud charge gets them to squash it like a bug. They don't mess around and if you continue to work with them, they'll handle the magazine.

Another avenue to take is to check your phonebook and get the number for the better business bureau and give them a call. See if they can help. Aside from messing around with big credit card companies, nothing makes a business (fraudulant or otherwise) jump in line then a complaint to the BBB.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[Jack Squat]

Zeb - turns out your focusing on the wrong part of the issue. A verbal contract caught on tape without consent is in-admissable in a court of law. Is there a part of that phone conversation where you remember and announcement like "This calls is being taped for....purposes?". You also have a right to ask for a copy of that message from the CC company (if that's what they are using to verify that it isn't a fraud charge.).

So that part shouldn't even be admissable to your credit card company as proof, and if they are accepting it then you may want to speak with someone higher then a rep when you call your CC.

Actually, it depends on the state. Some only one party has to be aware of the recording. IIRC, Zeb's in Maryland, and it's only illegal there to intercept messages without consent of both parties. A recording by one of the parties would be admissible.

ETA: Linky (http://www.rightgrrl.com/tripp/woods.html)

[Supagoof]

Actually, it depends on the state. Some only one party has to be aware of the recording. IIRC, Zeb's in Maryland, and it's only illegal there to intercept messages without consent of both parties. A recording by one of the parties would be admissible.

ETA: Linky (http://www.rightgrrl.com/tripp/woods.html)Oh well that sucks, but the other options are still workable.

And of course, leave it to where a good amount of our nations politicians reside to have such a law.:smalltongue:

[snoopy13a]

If you want to fight it, I'd consult a lawyer. They could go over the contract and whether or not it is binding. Plus, they could bring about a cause of action on your behalf.

The problem is that the lawyer's fees might cost more money than you are liable for the contract.

[Moff Chumley]

Find out as much as possible about the company, then publicly embarrass key members? It won't help, but it'll make you feel better.

[golentan]

If you want to fight it, I'd consult a lawyer. They could go over the contract and whether or not it is binding. Plus, they could bring about a cause of action on your behalf.

The problem is that the lawyer's fees might cost more money than you are liable for the contract.

That's true. But if you attach a civil (or if they've done this to enough people, a class action) lawsuit to it, and the lawyer's fees come out of that...

I'm generally opposed to lawsuits, as it's too easy to do a frivolous one. But if you're using it to fight a scam that's a worthy cause. Just do me a favor and don't launch a multimillion suit that winds up getting passed back to the public.

[Zeb The Troll]

Wow, this has gotten a lot more attention than I anticipated.

To address some further points presented...

I don't know if they advised that the call was being recorded because Alarra answered it, and it was in March so she may not even remember.

They did send us a "contract" in the mail. This covered the magazines we'd supposedly signed up for (which glaringly did not match with what we'd actually chosen from the other company), the payment schedule, and the means we could use to cancel. We did not take the opportunity to cancel via written correspondence and certified mail because we'd wasted time already trying to use the telephone, which they stipulate is a valid course of action. We did not have to sign and return this, it was simply an overview of what we'd apparently agreed to over the phone.

We cannot produce phone records indicating our attempts to call and cancel. I looked at my old bills online and the calls are not itemized because we have a Free Unlimited long distance plan. I called Verizon and asked if there was any way that I could get said records, the representative asked if it was being subpoena'd. I told her they were not and then briefly explained why I needed them. She put me on hold and spoke to her supervisor, then came back and told me there was no way that I could get them because they aren't tracked for Unlimited calling plans.

We do need to ask for the tape they have so that we can address it point by point. I don't know if the CC company has it or not, I just know that in their rebuttal, the magazine company declares that they have the acknowledgment on tape and we do not deny it. *makes note to call the CC company and inquire about this in the morning* I would not be at all surprised to find that the magazine company can't actually produce the tape they claim they have.

I don't think I can get them for identity theft because there is no indication that they've used the card for anything other than these magazine subscription payments. Though credit card fraud still seems plausible to me. Honestly, they've so far not gotten a dime from us or the CC company because we keep cancelling the payment when it shows up on the bill. I'd just be happy if they'd go away and stop bothering us.

Going to the BBB won't help. As I stated in that excerpt, the Denver BBB (this company is in Lakewood, CO) has 63 complaints on file for this company. One more won't change their minds.

At this point, my hope is that by sending our counter-rebuttal back to the CC company in a timely manner will persuade them that the magazine company is in fact the one trying to pull a fast one and, as was said, they will handle it from there. If they do, I will let it drop. If they don't, I will ask around and see what my chances are for legal action. (I promise, no multimillion dollar lawsuits, I just want them to stop it and go away. If they go out of business in the mean time, bonus points.) My concern about pursuing legal action is that, even to me, my case seems a bit rocky from a proof standpoint. :smallsigh: Let's just hope it doesn't get that far.

Thanks for all of the support, everyone. I'll report back as I learn more. Right now, I'm getting ready to fax our counter-rebuttal to the credit card company. I'll then call in the morning to make sure they got it and see if they have anything to say about it.

[golentan]

You really should have sent the mail cancellation order. Preferably by certified mail.

The fact that you didn't makes it harder at least. Though if phone cancellation was supposed to be an option that helps your case.

The complaints against them may not stop the company (they've evidently got a business model) but if you can contact previous complainers you can maybe get advice on how to stop payments, or what it is that they'd throw at you. Again, good luck zeb.

[Zeb The Troll]

You really should have sent the mail cancellation order. Preferably by certified mail.

The fact that you didn't makes it harder at least. Though if phone cancellation was supposed to be an option that helps your case.

The complaints against them may not stop the company (they've evidently got a business model) but if you can contact previous complainers you can maybe get advice on how to stop payments, or what it is that they'd throw at you. Again, good luck zeb.Yeah, I know. Hindsight and all. But frankly, I shouldn't have to pay to cancel a subscription service I didn't want. (Judging by their actions, I've no doubt that a non-certified letter would have "gotten lost in the mail".) And we didn't know then that it would come to this. I mean, really. We've been cancelling their payments since April and they don't complain to the credit card company until we change the card on them?