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monkey3
2009-11-03, 12:02 PM
I've DMed before, but not in a couple decades. My players run the full range of rules knowledge as well as degrees of munchkinism. I have players that can give lessons in a min/max post, and players that need to be told "the roll of 16 goes in your fighter's str, not int."

One way I have tried to cope it to knock off the high powered top of DnD. This way the normal players are not completely made irrelevant by the munchkins, and it makes it easier for a "new" DM like myself. With that said, here are the rules. Please comment, and let me know what is good/bad, should be added/removed. Thanks!

The world is <2000 years old. Players can change the world into something different than what they are used to. For example, the Draw race is just getting frustrated with the High elves and their elitism. Players can try to forge a peace between the races or hasten what is slowly becoming enmity and war.

Some tactics that players are used to in a well established world can't be used. They are just not perfected enough to be commonplace. Some of what does not currently exist for player characters:

1. Characters:
1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").
2 ● Time and Space warp around the characters. If you missed 3 sessions, and then show up, your character shows up where the party is (even in the 5th level of a dungeon on another plain).
3 ● No metagaming please: Your character knows what he/she knows, not what you know. There is nothing in the rules saying you can't make gunpowder, but your character would know how.
4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.

2. Unused Books:
1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic

3. Unused Races:
1 ● +LA races, Changeling, Kobold
ask

4. Unused Classes:
1 ● Archivist, Lion totem. Erodite
2 ● Artificers, Psionics for now

5. Unused Feats:
1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)

6. Unused Prestige Classes (PRC):
1 ● Initiate of the Seven Fold, Incantatrix, Shadow Caster, Initiate of Mystra, Spelldancer , Planar Shepherd
2 ● Mage of the Arcane Order (Not overpowered, just needs a well established mage school)
3 ● Radiant Servant of Pelor (most prcs have pros-and-cons. This one has 0 cons)
ask

7. Tactics:
1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

8. Magic:
1 ● Magic is slightly weaker that you are used to. All continuous effect spells (and permanent ones) need an infinitesimal amount of effort from the caster to continue. If the caster is unconscious or dead, the effects end, unless exp is spent (as in Permanency spell, and magic item creation).
2 ● Conservations of EXP: You cast a 1000exp Gate to bring in a Solar. It can't cast a 5000exp wish for you. The solar will come, but it would have used its wish for the day. To get a Solar with wish, your gate costs 6000exp.
3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
4 ● Other banned spells: Shivering Touch, Greater Mighty Wallop
5 ● There is no taint or classes that use it.
6 ● Some magic has benefit vs. cost. They go together. If you are immune to the cost, you don't get the benefit. Ex. Celerity's dazing effect is the cost. If you are immune to it, you don't get the benefit.

9. General:
1 ● Please do not argue about a rule or house-rule that you do not care about. If you are a fighter, you really don't care if Detect Thought is an 8th level spell. I believe in our current legal system, they call this having "standing."


10. Goal
1 ● Game shouldn't be DM vs. Player. It's an escalating conflict that ends with neither side happy.
2 ● Most of the house rules are put in to remove some strategies that make some characters much more powerful that other characters, thus making their contribution irrelevant. The alternative is to ban these tactics as they occur, but in my experience stating all up front causes fewer clashes.



------------- Edit: Reply to People's comments -------------------
Wow. A lot of comments in a short time. tThanks! Let's get to them:

@Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it)
No psionics just to make things simpler for me at the beginning. I will probably allow it later. For now, I'll do without the complications (and multiple actions) that many psionic powers allow.

@Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.

@Sinfire Titan and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Zore and @lsfreak
I do not want them to ever custom buy magic items. I want to keep strict control over it, for my sanity, and the fact that a few of my players will have no clue what to buy, and a few will know too well. At that point my banned magic item list will grow to 3 pages...
It falls upon me to make sure the new character gets a bunch of items quickly.

@Boci
Yes, standard point buy rules, starting at 8.
I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
hit you during your turn whether you hit him or not. (Can't remember details)
If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know. Sadly asking players not to min/max has been tried by other DMs and failed

@Boci and @Zore
I have seen Robillar Gambit used by one of my players to make an invincible fighter that


@Tyndmyr and @Foryn Gilnith
Grappling and tripping had to be banned when a certain person started doing it to dragons and larger. Please do not suggest I ban players ;)
Thanks. I will ban the spiked chain :)

@Zore
Tumble is not impossible. All stats being equal (and the rogue should have a higher dex), the rogue has a +5 advantage over a similar level opponent. It is simply no longer automatic, like it was before.


@Myrmex
I was not aware of the power of calling spells. I have not a single incident in our campaigns since 3.5. Can you be specific, so I can keep an eye out for it?
Agreed on Polymorph. I am watching it. For one thing, the lack of metagame means they can only change to what they have seen, and not to what they read on min/max forums.

@Myou and @Aldizog and others
As I said, asking people to play nice has not worked before. I can't say I blame them. Would you go up to an army solder and tell him stop doing 100 pushups, that makes your str OP? Adventurers who fight for their own and others' life or death should do the optimal thing. It is my job to make sure those with less knowledge are not made insignificant in comparison

@Tyndmyr
Thanks. Banned Whisper Gnome (makes gnome completely obsolete). We have had a few of these. You said there are OP races. If so, feel free to specify.

A few people:
Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.

Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.

The limit of 1 action per player is to make combat go faster. Even at 2 actions limit per player, I would have some players that take the spotlight for twice as long as another. Uncontrolled "minions" follow the party like sleep-walkers.

Buffs going away upon unconsciousness decreases caster power because it makes them afraid. The rule and its consequences have changed the way casters act. Now they cast and run because the entire host of enemy will run towards them to "free" their "Held" comrades.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 12:09 PM
It's good to know you aren't banning Tome of Battle, the most useful Melee book ever made, and Tome of Magic, a fun supplement.

I'm assuming Incarnum is allowed, which would make me happy if I was playing.

Why no psionics?

EDIT: Boci, he's not banning The ToB. He's banning the Tomb of Battle. Different book.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 12:10 PM
Why no reserve feats?

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 12:11 PM
4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.

That's too harsh for dying. It makes Rezzing vital. The characters feel gimped if they die no matter what. Just make the new character start a level below his previous character, WBL and all. Noncasters can't take the loss of WBL and expect to survive.

valadil
2009-11-03, 12:15 PM
Sounds reasonable to me. I'd move 10.1 up to the top for emphasis.

Boci
2009-11-03, 12:17 PM
1. Characters:
1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").

Good call on the max HP and aligment thing. Total classes prestidge classes just limits players choices so I do not see a point. By point by 30 you mean all states start at 8?


2 ● Time and Space warp around the characters. If you missed 3 sessions, and then show up, your character shows up where the party is (even in the 5th level of a dungeon on another plain).

Fair enough.


3 ● No metagaming please: Your character knows what he/she knows, not what you know. There is nothing in the rules saying you can't make gunpowder, but your character would know how.

Wouldn't call it a houserule, but yes, reasonable request,


4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.

Why?



3. Unused Races:
1 ● +LA races, Changeling, Kobold

I can understand you do not want to bother with LA, but why no kobolds and changlings? Pun-pun isn't the only reason to play a kobold.


4. Unused Classes:
1 ● Archivist, Lion totem. Erodite
2 ● Artificers, Psionics for now

By lion totem you mean the pouncing barbarian? Common house rule, but often unnessicary.


5. Unused Feats:
1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)

I think you've over reacting to melee boosting options. Robilar's gambit is fine. The latter two are okay though.


2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)

Why?


6. Unused Prestige Classes (PRC):
1 ● Initiate of the Seven Fold, Incantatrix, Shadow Caster, Initiate of Mystra, Spelldancer , Planar Shepherd
2 ● Mage of the Arcane Order (Not overpowered, just needs a well established mage school)
3 ● Radiant Servant of Pelor (most prcs have pros-and-cons. This one has 0 cons)
ask

Fair enough, although on a side note I think Initiate of Mystra is just a feat. Also Radiant Servant of Pelor exists because a healbot cleric is considered a poor choice for the class. Its not OP.


7. Tactics:
1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.

Craven is fine, DMM persist is only bad if your players pump their tuen attempt. Without doing that it is a reasonable tactic.



2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)

Doesn't it already?

[QUOTE=monkey3;7244726]3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.

Why? A limit of two is reasonable, but even then conjurers are screwed.


4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

Too complicated and damaging for rogues who need mobility. A more simple rule is make your tumble result equal your AC, and even that isn't used often.


8. Magic:
1 ● Magic is slightly weaker that you are used to. All continuous effect spells (and permanent ones) need an infinitesimal amount of effort from the caster to continue. If the caster is unconscious or dead, the effects end, unless exp is spent (as in Permanency spell, and magic item creation).
2 ● Conservations of EXP: You cast a 1000exp Gate to bring in a Solar. It can't cast a 5000exp wish for you. The solar will come, but it would have used its wish for the day. To get a Solar with wish, your gate costs 6000exp.
3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
4 ● Other banned spells: Shivering Touch, Greater Mighty Wallop
5 ● There is no taint or classes that use it.
6 ● Some magic has benefit vs. cost. They go together. If you are immune to the cost, you don't get the benefit. Ex. Celerity's dazing effect is the cost. If you are immune to it, you don't get the benefit.

Fair enough, although the permenandt one ending when caster is unconuious may become a PITA.


9. General:
1 ● Please do not argue about a rule or house-rule that you do not care about. If you are a fighter, you really don't care if Detect Thought is an 8th level spell. I believe in our current legal system, they call this having "standing."

Fair enough.


10. Goal
1 ● Game shouldn't be DM vs. Player. It's an escalating conflict that ends with neither side happy.
2 ● Most of the house rules are put in to remove some strategies that make some characters much more powerful that other characters, thus making their contribution irrelevant. The alternative is to ban these tactics as they occur, but in my experience stating all up front causes fewer clashes.

The problem is, you cannot balance the game by removing all thing you percieve as broken. I could make several overpowered characters using your houserules, but i wouldn't because that ruins the fun. generally, don't ban a class because its overpowered, just ask your players to be responsible.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 12:19 PM
That's a decently long list of rules. I suggest the following modifications:

Allow standard(or modified based on how wealthy your world is) WBL on new characters. This really becomes important later on, as you'll be way behind the power curve otherwise. If you want them to start slightly behind, have them start at -1 ECL. That gets fixed in time.

Nothing wrong with Tome of Battle. Melee deserves nice things too.

Pisonics are fine. Stick with the default transparency for magic/psionics, and they're pretty interchangeable.

Grappling and tripping are banned? That seems to severely limit melee options.

Retreat causes AoO is a rule Ive played with for many years. It tends to change combat a bit, and in general, makes things most lethal for the players. Its fine so long as you're aware of this, and that it's really easy for reach weapon types to get even more attacks this way. Fear the spiked chain.

The magic buff quasi-concentration really doesn't matter much. If you've gone unconcious or dead, you're already out of the fight. It only really hurts still standing allies, who just lost their buffs. Be aware that this doesn't really depower the mage.

Conservation of XP. At most, have making the solar cast wish cost the same as you casting wish. Any more is pointless. Realistically, I'd prefer a system where you randomize if the solar has cast wish before being summoned. It feels more real, and it still allows you to balance the xp spend/probability of benefit.

Things like Detect Evil and Detect Thought aren't really much of an issue if you play them carefully, and use alignment as more than a label for who to kill. Divination is not usually all it's cracked up to be. Useful, sure. Not godmode.

Taint is a variant rule anyhow, no harm in getting rid of it, and some balance benefits.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-03, 12:20 PM
average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less.
Yay for decimals. Less so for the class limit. Why bother? Though this is a cliched example and not necessarily relevant, look at the wizard. Wizard only really needs 1 class, and might want a PrC for two. A martial character may very well need to dip around for power. Barbarian 1 to represent savage origins, Hexblade 2 to represent his emo past after being stranded away from his homeland, Fighter 2 to represent joining a proper army, some prestige class... if he changes focus again (i.e. wants to try any new technique), he's out of luck. Compare to a straight wizard, who can go Wizard/geometer/divine oracle or some setup like that easily. Or a wizard/ur-priest/MT.



1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns....Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
This seems arbitrary, but it's not actually that irksome. It would make more sense if I had the context of what other peoples' campaigns are.



2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
Why ever bother using the withdraw action, then?


3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
I'm a bit confused. What happens if you don't control your character? Are you saying that direct control is only possible with one, and the others are under DM adjudication? Becuase otherwise mounts are sort of useless.



3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
How is detect evil or alignment a plot ending event? So easy to defend against, and so very useless. So the politician is evil; you knew that already by virtue of his being a politician... You still don't have grounds to murder him. Or suspect him of anything more than you would his other amoral comrades.

Everything else is either a good idea, a logical idea, or something that isn't worth caring about.

EDIT:


That's too harsh for dying. It makes Rezzing vital. The characters feel gimped if they die no matter what. Just make the new character start a level below his previous character, WBL and all. Noncasters can't take the loss of WBL and expect to survive.

It's presumably in response to people looting the body. Just take all the old gear off the dead guy and sell it. You might even be able to get some cash for the body. And you save the money you'd spend on resurrecting.


@ ToB, ToM, Incarnum, et cetera: Those would fall under things "nobody" allows. And while the sentiment is good, some are being a bit elitist in their defense of these alternate systems.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 12:20 PM
Why no reserve feats?

Oh yeah, I forgot...this. Why no reserve feats? The majority are underpowered, and the good ones are situational.

Zore
2009-11-03, 12:22 PM
1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a char into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").

This hits Melee far harsher than casters if you're going for balance. Total classes that is, alignment is a good one.



4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
Yeah I agree with the way too harsh sentiment here, WBL is a good chunk of most characters power.



5. Unused Feats:
1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)

Why are these 'unused'? I understand leadership but Robilar's gambit?



7. Tactics:
1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.

Tumble has become nearly impossible to preform now. In addition I feel craven is not broken at all and you should reconsider allowing it. Also the rule for companions is okay, though it eliminates most summoner and companion builds. You might want to make an exception for a Ranger or lower-powered character and keep the rule for wizards, druids and the like.

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 12:23 PM
I don't think limiting classes to 4 or less is an issue. Personally speaking, I've always viewed it to be my job as a DM to allow people to retroactively alter classes or homebrew them as appropriate rather than requiring a veritable hodgepodge of classes to represent things.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-03, 12:24 PM
Yeah I agree with the way too harsh sentiment here, WBL is a good chunk of most characters power.

Which is why you loot the body of the guy you're not resurrecting, or spend a short sidequest designed solely to get loot. Or get a resurrection and keep party synchronity.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 12:27 PM
I recommend making getting rid of calling spells, changing what's eligible to be called, and/or changing how they auto become your bitch when summoned. Being able to permanently have an outsider that has 2x your HD and follows your every command is just stupid, even if you can only take one action a round with either it or your caster.

Get rid of the polymorph spells, or change the duration to rounds/level, make the bonuses enhancement bonuses, and ban shape change. At the very least get rid of shape change.

Also highly recommend the inclusion of both psionics & tome of battle. Tome of battle gives melee a sort of casterlike mechanic which keeps them competitive past level 8, and psionics is a good system to make gishes and blasters with.

Myou
2009-11-03, 12:28 PM
I'll just pick out anything I'd want to change.

Classes: Allow all classes but the archivist (or just restrict archivists to cleric and druid spells), just tell players picking top tier classes that you expect them to play nice.

Multiclassing: The number of classes you take has no relation to your power at all, please just drop this. xP

HP: Round up or down, recording decimals is extra work.

Tome of Battle: For the gods' sakes, allow it, or else your melee players will have almost nothing do do but attack actions all campaign. And it's well balanced in case that's your fear. A player of mine turned down ToB classes at the start of my campaign, then after a month or two, begged to convert their class to a ToB one. He foud that it was better balanced and more fun. Damn, I misread that. xD

Reserve feats: Perfectly balanced, really, don't ban them.

Radiant Servant: Only really overpowered in undead-focused games, otherwise it's just a little more fragile but better at healing. But if you like udead, then yes, ban it.

Craven: Allow it. Why on Earth would anyone ban it? Rogues are hardly overpowered.

Retreat: (Assuming you mean Withdrawl) Your AoO rule is kind of silly and nonsensical, and I don't see what purpose it serves.

Controlling things: No. No no no no no no no. If their mount/familiar/summon/whatever is just going to stand around doing nothing unless they skip thier turn to tell it what to do, then all you do is soft-ban those things. So either outright ban them, or drop this rule.

Continuous effects: How were these breaking the game? I'd drop this rule.

Arguing: This rule is rather unfair - a guy playing a fighter has a much right to disagree with you as a guy playing a wizard. And anyway, what if he wants to play a wizard next time? Or just sees that a rule is treating his ally - or enemy - unfairly?


I hope I helped. ^^

lsfreak
2009-11-03, 12:29 PM
4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
Ouch. If you go through with this, be sure to take into account you've basically got someone useless following around the party by mid-levels.



2. Unused Books:
1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic
I would highly suggest looking at ToB and ToM if you're afraid of unbalancing, because they don't (unless you also ban wizards, druids, and clerics, or they never batman or CoDzilla but only blast or heal). If it's for complexity reasons, add Magic of Incarnum to the list.



5. Unused Feats:
1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
I wonder about these because none of them are really on the powerful side, except for Leadership and the Summon Elemental reserve feat in the context of a trap-heavy dungeon.



Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
Craven is hardly overpowered. I've never heard of someone banning it. Neither Persist nor DMM are broken, it's when you put them together and allow access to tons of Turn Undead-boosting stuff. So I'd ban DMM:Persist but not DMM nor Persist.



3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
Penalizing the paladin for playing a paladin? I'd be less passive-aggressive to just ban druids, paladins, and necromancers instead of crippling them.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 12:44 PM
DMM is 100% broken. Anything that allows you to lower the cost of metamagic is.

Random832
2009-11-03, 12:45 PM
Okay, I'm not going to comment on specific points as others have. The real fundamental issue here - other than a lot of them being ridiculously harsh - is that they seem to be solutions in search of a problem.

So if you could repeat the list again, with an example of just what problems you _think_ you're solving by making the rule (i.e. are you banning Kobolds because of Pun-Pun? because of Dragonwrought cheese?) - based on 10.2 you clearly have something in mind. You could get a lot more constructive suggestions if you'd make this clear.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 12:50 PM
Okay, I'm not going to comment on specific points as others have. The real fundamental issue here - other than a lot of them being ridiculously harsh - is that they seem to be solutions in search of a problem.

So if you could repeat the list again, with an example of just what problems you _think_ you're solving by making the rule (i.e. are you banning Kobolds because of Pun-Pun? because of Dragonwrought cheese?) you could get a lot more constructive suggestions.

Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.

Aldizog
2009-11-03, 12:51 PM
I think you have a lot of excellent ideas that will be great for your game. It might not be the right game for everybody on these boards, but I think it will be a good fit for a new DM and a mixed group of casual or novice gamers and optimizers. But make sure you tell this to the optimizers: "I know you can find things I've overlooked and still break the game. Please don't."



4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.

I strongly support this for a new DM, and I really prefer the BECMI/2E version of magic item distribution over the 3E version. This way (combined with limits on what can be bought or crafted), the DM can control which magic items appear in the game. New PCs will be a bit underpowered, but I expect you'll make sure they catch up soon. It will certainly reduce the importance of "character builds" and narrow the gap between the optimizers and casual gamers.

WBL is really poorly designed. You can have WBL that increases your power a lot (if you picked and chose the items you wanted), or that doesn't really do very much (if you happened to find +1 shadow silent half-plate and a +1 oozebane greatclub). I'd suggest ignoring WBL and handing out specific items based on the actual in-game experience and challenges.



2. Unused Books:
1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic

I agree with you on these, and the latter 2 for the sake of keeping the game simpler to learn for the newbies. (ToM has some neat things but adds complexity.) On ToB: I don't think melee is going to need a boost in the game you described. In a casual game, it's a much better balance than in a optimized one. Now, if the optimizers are playing casters and the newbies are playing fighters, the fighters will be left way behind. If the newbies are playing casters with just a bit of guidance, and the optimizers are playing fighters but holding their tendencies in check a bit, the fighters will still be ahead (system mastery >>>>> class power) but the balance should be pretty good.



2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)

In practice, 3.5 ended up destroying the game balancing aspect of magic being limited by making scrolls and wands just too cheap and too easy to obtain. So a wizard using endless Fiery Burst is probably weaker than one using a Wand of Fireballs. If you want to make the limited amount of spells be an actual constraint at low-to-mid levels (likely your reason for removing the Reserve feats), limit the fungible wealth distributed so that crafting wands and scribing scrolls is more expensive. If you remove the magic item market, so magic items are not fungible wealth, then this measure doesn't cripple the non-casters.

Random832
2009-11-03, 12:52 PM
Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.

That was just an example. And in that case why not give it a LA+1 (or a LA+1 for certain classes - if someone wants to play a kobold with a stick why not?)

Boci
2009-11-03, 12:53 PM
Even without pun-pun/dragonwrought, kobolds are definitely on the powerful side for LA +0 races. Wizards just has their heads up their ass on judging the power of a race by only considering it in a single role- guy with stick. Kobolds make excellent casters & skillmonkeys.

Both of which need con.


DMM is 100% broken. Anything that allows you to lower the cost of metamagic is.

Please tell me you're joking.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 12:58 PM
Kobolds are a decent race, yes, but other races, such as Whisper Gnomes do the skillmonkey, etc job just as well...and probably better.

MM reducers only become broken as part of elaborate combos. Don't ban the individual pieces, just the wierd, twisted combos.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 01:02 PM
DMM can be good or bad. Even the dreaded DMM:Persist can be okay if used to persist spells like Vigor(Fast Healing 1. Sure, you have infinite healing, but it's slow enough that in Combat it doesn't matter).

As for Lion Totem, just switch the level 1 and 6 abilities around if you really think it's necessary. Sure, Barb's still get Pounce, but it's not a game breaker, just a useful ability, and at that point it's way more than a dip to get it. Still, this hurts, TWF more than anything else, and TWF is one of the weaker styles.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 01:02 PM
Both of which need con.

Either use the jungle/desert variant or your +20 hide check.


Please tell me you're joking.

You disagree?

Boci
2009-11-03, 01:06 PM
Either use the jungle/desert variant or your +20 hide check.

Hide does not help against fortitude saves. Con is a very important state and loosing it is crippling. Kobolds are a good choice, but I wouldn't say they were any more powerful than a human.


You disagree?

Yes, yes I do, it can be broken, but there are many ways in which it can be used as a reasonable ability.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 01:07 PM
Kobolds are a decent race, yes, but other races, such as Whisper Gnomes do the skillmonkey, etc job just as well...and probably better.

Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.


MM reducers only become broken as part of elaborate combos. Don't ban the individual pieces, just the wierd, twisted combos.

They really don't. A huge limitation to becoming Czilla is having to spend actions putting up buffs that will only last a battle. Persisting/Quickening those is a great work around, and essentially breaks the class. This also makes a blaster cleric pretty good. Not unbelievable, but better than what melee's going to be packing, and definitely better than any arcane casters.

I would also recommend getting rid of metamagic rods.


Hide does not help against fortitude saves. Con is a very important state and loosing it is crippling. Kobolds are a good choice, but I wouldn't say they were any more powerful than a human.

If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.


Yes, yes I do, it can be broken, but there are many ways in which it can be used as a reasonable ability.

In that case, all these rules are irrelevant, since as long as the abilities are used reasonably, it's not broken, right?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 01:15 PM
Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.

Well yes, obviously there are worse races.

The point is, he's banning a race, when there are better, unbanned options available. This makes the ban pointless.


They really don't. A huge limitation to becoming Czilla is having to spend actions putting up buffs that will only last a battle. Persisting/Quickening those is a great work around, and essentially breaks the class. This also makes a blaster cleric pretty good. Not unbelievable, but better than what melee's going to be packing, and definitely better than any arcane casters.

DMM:Persist was already addressed as an exception. DMM Quicken doesn't change the fact that you're starting combat unbuffed, and using spells for each combat. It's nice, but not nearly so overpowering.


If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.

Given the popularity of +con, Id consider even -2 con to be a significant drawback. And, good hiding or not, you will be targettable sometime.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 01:16 PM
The only way DMM is broken is if you believe that:

A: spending two feats isn't a big investment
B: If there are no undead in the game, or those that are have absurd turning resistance
and/or C: if it's used as an elaborate combo.

For example, I'm in a campaign that's undead heavy, but I'm using DMM Quicken. While it is a powerful option, losing the ability to roll an "I win" attack against some common foes in the campaign is a decent offset, and it doesn't hurt that I'm taking two feats just to do it.

Boci
2009-11-03, 01:17 PM
If they can't target you, you don't have to make a fortitude save. And -2 con is hardly crippling. -4 con is crippling.

Area affects? Mosters that do not rely on spot checks to find you? And good luck hitting stuff until you can take weapon finesse at level 3.



In that case, all these rules are irrelevant, since as long as the abilities are used reasonably, it's not broken, right?

Yes, that was the point in my first post.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 01:18 PM
Turning sucks, and gets worse as you gain levels.
Getting extra actions is always an I Win option.


Well yes, obviously there are worse races.

The point is, he's banning a race, when there are better, unbanned options available. This makes the ban pointless.

No, it just means he missed some races.


DMM:Persist was already addressed as an exception. DMM Quicken doesn't change the fact that you're starting combat unbuffed, and using spells for each combat. It's nice, but not nearly so overpowering.

Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.
DMM Quicken means you're getting 2 actions per round about 10 levels before you normally would.


Given the popularity of +con, Id consider even -2 con to be a significant drawback. And, good hiding or not, you will be targettable sometime.

Meh. As I said; use a variant.


Area affects? Mosters that do not rely on spot checks to find you? And good luck hitting stuff until you can take weapon finesse at level 3.

Darkstalker at level 6, sneak attack acid vials at low levels. And AoE's will mess anyone up with low HD, regardless of a 12 or 14 in con.


Yes, that was the point in my first post.

If he's playing with the munchkin mindset, he's going to need concrete rules, not a gentleman's agreement.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 01:19 PM
I don't know. Due to the way CR scales with HD, most Level Appropriate Undead can't be turned by a Cleric unless they devote alot of resources to it. I can't remember the last time someone in one of my groups uses a turn check and actually succeeded.

Aldizog
2009-11-03, 01:27 PM
I don't know. Due to the way CR scales with HD, most Level Appropriate Undead can't be turned by a Cleric unless they devote alot of resources to it. I can't remember the last time someone in one of my groups uses a turn check and actually succeeded.
Well, the measure of a character of level X isn't really how they do against a single CR X opponent, since single opponents are done in by the action economy advantage. A "level appropriate" undead encounter is more likely to be several lower-CR undead, IMO.

A CR10 undead encounter might more often be a CR 8 leader and a group of lower-CR allies (like a vampire and his spawn). Or maybe a group of three CR7 spectres.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 01:31 PM
Just because X>Y doesn't mean Y is no longer >Z.
DMM Quicken means you're getting 2 actions per round about 10 levels before you normally would.

You're quite fond of pointing out that "there's something worse than this". That doesn't make it broken. For nearly ANYTHING, there is a Z that is worse than it.

Assuming you're using DMM:quicken to get two actions per round 10 levels before you normally would, you'll nova off your slots quickly. At low levels, the number of slots you have actually matters, and boosting up the rate at which you burn through them has the drawback of running out in half the time.


Meh. As I said; use a variant.

Variants boost everyone...so?

Zovc
2009-11-03, 01:31 PM
First of all, if anything I say sounds sharp, rude, or pointless, feel free to take it that way, just know I'm trying to point out things that I see as wrong in here. I'm going to suggest that you remove a lot of the slang ("char") and put the full words for your sake, to make you look more professional.

1. Characters:

1 ● 30 point buy, Max hp for first level, average (keeping decimals) for all else. Please keep total classes/prestige classes to 4 or less. Please don't bring a character into the party with an alignment that is contrary to all others, or who is going to boss other characters around ("All of you must act in accordance to my alignment...").
Point buy is fine.

Max HP for first level is part of the game's rules, you shouldn't need to state part of the game's rules as a houserule.

Putting a limit on classes and prestige classes is fine, you just may come across players who want their characters to do a certain thing that can't without more. This isn't to say that a player is trying to powergame, so much as it is to say that a player might want their character to "function a certain way."

Is there actually anything wrong with a character bossing another character around? I'm not saying that the players should tell other players how to play their characters, but people constantly tell other people how they feel about behaviors. As an example, I'm not afraid to tell someone that I don't like drinking, or that they shouldn't, either.

For the record, this bullet addresses three things that are only loosely related (HP at 1st level probably doesn't need to be mentioned, but it should get its own point, too, if listed), it should probably be separated into different ones.


2 ● Time and Space warp around the characters. If you missed 3 sessions, and then show up, your character shows up where the party is (even in the 5th level of a dungeon on another plain).
3 ● No metagaming please: Your character knows what he/she knows, not what you know. There is nothing in the rules saying you can't make gunpowder, but your character would know how.
This seems fine.


4 ● New characters will appear without magic items or significant cash.
This seems unfair to new players, but could serve as punishment to players who got their characters killed, I'm sure it will make people unhappy no matter what.

2. Unused Books:

1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic
I've heard accounts of The Book of Exalted Deeds breaking the game. My understanding is that Tome of Magic is mostly broken, but that the Binder is a good (read, "fun and balanced") class. The Tome of Battle is highly praised here on the forums, for the most part.

Perhaps you want to consolidate some of the "unused" sections you have? Particularly Unused Classes and Unused Prestige Classes.

3. Unused Races:

1 ● +LA races, Changeling, Kobold
ask
What do you mean, "ask"?

4. Unused Classes:

1 ● Archivist, Lion totem. Erodite
2 ● Artificers, Psionics for now
Are Artificers AND Psionics banned "for now?" or just Psionics?

5. Unused Feats:

1 ● Robilar's Gambit, Mother Cyst, Leadership(s)
2 ● Almost all "Reserve" Feats (ask)
I'm not familiar with any of the feats other than Leadership(s), and I can understand you banning it.

6. Unused Prestige Classes (PRC):

1 ● Initiate of the Seven Fold, Incantatrix, Shadow Caster, Initiate of Mystra, Spelldancer , Planar Shepherd
2 ● Mage of the Arcane Order (Not overpowered, just needs a well established mage school)
3 ● Radiant Servant of Pelor (most prcs have pros-and-cons. This one has 0 cons)
ask
I've never heard of Radiant Servant of Pelor, but most people don't like prestige classes that have "cons."

7. Tactics:

1 ● Grappling, tripping. Most everything is allowed that is allowed in other people's campaigns.
Leadership, DMM and Persistence, Craven for example are not allowed, as no one allows them.
I have no idea what you mean by this. You should sate explicitly what you do and do not allow.

2 ● Retreat causes AoO (offsets the above somewhat)
I'm not sure what Retreat is, but I'd assume its only purpose is to avoid Attacks of Opportunity.

3 ● Players can control only one of the following per round: Character, mount, familiar, companion, charmed mod, follower, animal, henchman, clone, summoned, undead minion, etc.
This almost COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of having any of the above. At least let people command two things in a round.

4 ● Makes no sense to tumble past a lvl 1 Wizard the same as a lvl 20 Fighter. Tumble is a contest skill now: Tumbler's Skill (rank + dex ) + 2 + d20 vs Defender's skill (lvl + dex + d20). +5 dc per additions tumbles/rnd.
Why not use Sense Motive? It seems more in line with what you're talking about.

8. Magic:

1 ● Magic is slightly weaker that you are used to. All continuous effect spells (and permanent ones) need an infinitesimal amount of effort from the caster to continue. If the caster is unconscious or dead, the effects end, unless exp is spent (as in Permanency spell, and magic item creation).
2 ● Conservations of EXP: You cast a 1000exp Gate to bring in a Solar. It can't cast a 5000exp wish for you. The solar will come, but it would have used its wish for the day. To get a Solar with wish, your gate costs 6000exp.
3 ● Plot/Adventure ending spells come at a later level: Know Alignment, Detect Evil, Detect Thought, Augury, Contact other Planes. In general, ask about "Divination" spells/abilities.
4 ● Other banned spells: Shivering Touch, Greater Mighty Wallop
5 ● There is no taint or classes that use it.
6 ● Some magic has benefit vs. cost. They go together. If you are immune to the cost, you don't get the benefit. Ex. Celerity's dazing effect is the cost. If you are immune to it, you don't get the benefit.
I can't really speak for the balance of the above.

9. General:

1 ● Please do not argue about a rule or house-rule that you do not care about. If you are a fighter, you really don't care if Detect Thought is an 8th level spell. I believe in our current legal system, they call this having "standing."
Discouraging players to talk about things they have issues is not something you want to do.

10. Goal

1 ● Game shouldn't be DM vs. Player. It's an escalating conflict that ends with neither side happy.
2 ● Most of the house rules are put in to remove some strategies that make some characters much more powerful that other characters, thus making their contribution irrelevant. The alternative is to ban these tactics as they occur, but in my experience stating all up front causes fewer clashes.
Try to make sure you actually accomplish this with your rules.

Boci
2009-11-03, 01:34 PM
Darkstalker at level 6,

There goes another feat, and its not 100% proof, just nearly.


sneak attack acid vials at low levels.

You are assuming such a tactic is allowed.


And AoE's will mess anyone up with low HD, regardless of a 12 or 14 in con.

But the -1 to your fort save counts all the same


If he's playing with the munchkin mindset, he's going to need concrete rules, not a gentleman's agreement.

"Everything is allowed, but if you abuse the rules and do not stop when I ask you to, I will do so better and kill your character" tends to ne sufficient.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 01:44 PM
There goes another feat, and its not 100% proof, just nearly.

Why WOULDN'T you take darkstalker as a kobold? What are you going to spend you 6th level feat on? You don't need TWF, thanks to having claw/claw/bite, and you already have multiattack & weapon finesse.


You are assuming such a tactic is allowed.

Well, yes, because it's in the rules.


But the -1 to your fort save counts all the same

Name some AoE fort save effects for me, please.
If it's coming from an enemy caster, you're looking at a 70% chance of failing vs. a 75% chance. I'd rather go with having +16 to hide, so he won't even know where I am. Not being targeted in 80% of fights is WAY better than being targeted in 40% of fights and having slightly more HP/better saves.


"Everything is allowed, but if you abuse the rules and do not stop when I ask you to, I will do so better and kill your character" tends to ne sufficient.

What's rule abuse?
Whisper Gnome?
Sneak attacking with an acid flask?
Casting Sleep?
Using power attack & leap attack?

Boci
2009-11-03, 01:46 PM
Why WOULDN'T you take darkstalker as a kobold? What are you going to spend you 6th level feat on? You don't need TWF, thanks to having claw/claw/bite, and you already have multiattack & weapon finesse.

Depends on your build. Maybe you need a feat to qualify for a nice prestidge class you saw that isn't darkstalker.


Well, yes, because it's in the rules.

So is pun-pun.



What's rule abuse?
Whisper Gnome?
Sneak attacking with an acid flask?
Casting Sleep?
Using power attack & leap attack?

That depedns on the game. I've played in one where a duskblade chaneling empowered vampire touch for free was overpowered and I've sat in one ones were it would have been underpowered.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 01:50 PM
Great Fortitude perhaps? I kid, I kid...

But seriously, AOE fort saves won't be the only way to get a fort save. And cloudkill comes to mind as an AOE with a fort save. But hey, if you're the skill monkey, that means you get to deal with the traps. Reflex is more common, sure, but a trap with a fort save is by no means impossible.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 01:56 PM
Depends on your build. Maybe you need a feat to qualify for a nice prestidge class you saw that isn't darkstalker.[quote]

Honestly, I'd put the PrC off and take darkstalker. The only exception was if I was beguiler and decided Telepathy & Mindsight would be better. 'Course, Mindsight is insane.

[quote]So is pun-pun.

Well there you go. That's why we have houserules.
Not that pun pun needs a house rule.
Your character can chant pazuzu all he wants; pazuzu's busy.


That depedns on the game. I've played in one where a duskblade chaneling empowered vampire touch for free was overpowered and I've sat in one ones were it would have been underpowered.

Right.
So given the RAW and "don't be too overpowered", you'll still end up with characters all over the place. What's powerful to me is different than what's powerful to you. Now magnify that between a bunch of noobs & munchkins.

Zincorium
2009-11-03, 01:56 PM
Yeah, the OP needs some explanations for things- even bad ideas can have good motivations and vice versa.

The key here is that just outright banning stuff usually doesn't end up meaning much- you've left all sorts of broken stuff in (good and bad), because there's no good way to keep it all out when your players aren't cooperating.

Could someone play in your game? Sure. But don't expect everybody to remember all the rules you've changed off the top of their heads- you should give them just a teensy bit of slack.

monkey3
2009-11-03, 01:59 PM
I debated whether to add my replies to people here or edit the original post. I opted for editing the original post so that newcomers to this thread can see my reply, and perhaps have a point clarified.

Thanks for the comments, and keep them coming.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:01 PM
The key here is that just outright banning stuff usually doesn't end up meaning much- you've left all sorts of broken stuff in (good and bad), because there's no good way to keep it all out when your players aren't cooperating.

My guess is that's why he's posting it to the internet for a critique.

Zovc
2009-11-03, 02:02 PM
I debated whether to add my replies to people here or edit the original post. I opted for editing the original post so that newcomers to this thread can see my reply, and perhaps have a point clarified.

It's a lot easier for people already posting in the thread to know if something has changed if you "actually" acknowledge them.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 02:03 PM
@Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.

A few people:
Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.


Dimensional Jaunt is a standard action to teleport 5'*spell level, hardly game breaking, perhaps you're thinking of Abrupt Jaunt, the ACF for conjurers in PHB2?

Summon Elemental abuse is pretty much limited to... triggering traps.

Radiant Servant of Pelor is not quite strictly greater than a normal cleric, you're -1hp/level and shoehorned into the sun domain (and worshipping pelor in general making your potential domains good, healing and strength, hardly paragons of power). Besides, turning is crap unless you max it hard or use it to power something else.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:08 PM
Calling spells like Gate, Planar Binding, and Planar Ally are all exceedingly overpowered. Spend a handful of xp, get free spells forever.

There are two feats in Lords of Madness you *might* want to get rid of (for players, anyway): Darkstalker & Mindsight. Darkstalker lets you hide from scent, tremorsense, just about every possible way to detect you except Mindsight and Lifesense (feat from Libris Mortis that only things without a con score can take).

Mindsight lets you see things with an int score within range of your telepathy. The fastest way to get telepathy is a 1 level dip in Mindbender. Mindbender isn't overpowered, by any means. Telepathy is quite useful, but not really a gamebreaker. Mindsight can be a huge headache for the DM, though. It forces you to really pay attention to what you're doing.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 02:16 PM
You've really got a hate on for Rogues getting into melee, don't you? No Tumble to avoid getting their low-HP butts kicked just moving around, and no Craven to let them actually do enough damage to matter.

Bad ideas, both of these. Rogue is about the most balanced class in the game -- a solid Tier 4 option -- and not letting them have nice things is just spiteful.

Boci
2009-11-03, 02:17 PM
Well there you go. That's why we have houserules.

The house rule is don't be a jerk.



Right.
So given the RAW and "don't be too overpowered", you'll still end up with characters all over the place. What's powerful to me is different than what's powerful to you. Now magnify that between a bunch of noobs & munchkins.

Kick out the munchkins, and find players who work together to balance their character concepts. Its not rocket sience and it only requires one hourse rule.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 02:19 PM
Please reply using the quote feature, OP. It's much easier than reading an edited original post, because it leads to tedious page flipping to see what you are responding too.

Boci
2009-11-03, 02:21 PM
@Boci
Yes, standard point buy rules, starting at 8.
I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
hit you during your turn whether you hit him or not. (Can't remember details)
If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know.

Just tell them they cannot take that feat then, or the dragonwraught cheese. No need to ban kobolds.


Sadly asking players not to min/max has been tried by other DMs and failed

Then remind them you can do anything their character can, better.


Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.

Some feats are very weak. just because other are better does not make them OP.


I have seen Robillar Gambit used by one of my players to make an invincible fighter

That requires the frenzied beserker prestidge class, a fighter variant and some magical items. on its own Robillar Gambit does not make a fighter invincible.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-03, 02:24 PM
OP:

I've got to say, aside from the leadership restriction and the tumbling point, I'd have to say I reaaaallllly disagree with the "tactics" section.

It screws people over for no really good reason, imo.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 02:25 PM
@Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it)If you don't have the Tome of Battle, how do you know it's broken? Really, it's about on par with mid-power casters(not pure blasters, not Cindy).


No psionics just to make things simpler for me at the beginning. I will probably allow it later. For now, I'll do without the complications (and multiple actions) that many psionic powers allow.
Psionics is actually easier to use than normal magic and much less broken. I highly suggest using it in a normal game. Just remember: you can't use more points on a power than your manifester level unless specifically told so.


@Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.
The Immediate action teleport isn't a reserve feat, it's a wizard variant. The teleport one uses a standard action, and is like a weaker Dimension Door. The Elemental one summons a small elemental, so at the point you get it it's not worth to much beyond some extra utility.



@Boci
Yes, standard point buy rules, starting at 8.
I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
Just say that you don't qualify for epic feats. There, no more cheese.




@Boci and @Zore
I have seen Robillar Gambit used by one of my players to make an invincible fighter that hit you during your turn whether you hit him or not. (Can't remember details)
If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know. Sadly asking players not to min/max has been tried by other DMs and failed
So? What's the problem? Just have Archers/casters attack him, or things that can soak some damage. Also, remember that it would be limited to his AOO's per round.



@Tyndmyr and @Foryn Gilnith
Grappling and tripping had to be banned when a certain person started doing it to dragons and larger.
So, in other words, you don't want people to Trip/Grapple/Disarm? Cause that's what you seem to be say. Man, melee's going to be really boring with you...


Thanks. I will ban the spiked chain :)Don't ban the Spiked Chain. I really don't understand why people have a problem with it, sure it's better than the martial weapons. DUH! You're spending a feat to get it, I hope it's better. It's one of the few Exotic weapons that's actually worth it, that's no reason to ban it.



A few people:
Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.
So? It also has lower HD, loses some BaB, and has a few bad prerequisites. Personally, I've never had a problem with them; just don't send waves of undead at them(or, one the other hand, do, just send enough that he burns through Turn Undead).

Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.
You do realize that some feats are better than others, right? And that alot of old feats are really, really crappy. Saying that a feat is better than another one doesn't mean feat A is overpowered. Feat B could just as easily be underpowered, and in this case, it is. +3.5 damage on average does not a good feat make. Personally, I'd say make Craven stack with your Rogue level and call it a day, +20 damage isn't that amazing at level 20, and SA is pretty easy to negate at that level anyways.

The limit of 1 action per player is to make combat go faster. Even at 2 actions limit per player, I would have some players that take the spotlight for twice as long as another. Uncontrolled "minions" follow the party like sleep-walkers.
Still, it basically makes all mounts, Summons, callings, companions, and familars useless.

Really, it sound like you want to run a really boring game where everyone can only do one thing, and does that every round.

Also, I'd start replying to people in the thread instead of your first post. It'll be easier to have an discussion that way.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 02:32 PM
2. Unused Books:
1 ● Exalted deeds, Tomb of battle, Tomb of magic
@Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling [Are you sure of that?:smallbiggrin:] :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it) [Ok, not having it is fair, but: it has nothing anywhere near as crazy as Time Stop, Contingency, or Celerity, all three of which are allowed. And it's MUCH simpler than Magic of Incarnum, which you do allow.]
No psionics just to make things simpler for me at the beginning. I will probably allow it later. For now, I'll do without the complications (and multiple actions[Like the Psionic version of Time Stop(a Sor/Wiz spell)?]) that many psionic powers [and even more Arcane/Divine spells] allow.

My Comments in "[]"

For Psionics: What is crazy about Psionics that a Wizard can't do? MAGIC is broken, PSIONICS is balanced. (Excepting "Spell to Power" Erudite, and I applaud it's banning. One of the few (non-story-reason) bannings I will.)

Read this thread for a psionics FAQ. It'll explain everything you need to know, and will take less time than the reading the PHB Magic Rules. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571246/New_35_Psionics_FAQ)
And this one showing and explaining why Psionics is not overpowered. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth_The_XPH_is_overpowered)

And remember PR=SR and you're set. (Transparancy is assumed for all psionics. Nontransparcney and partial are houserules. Neither is fun to play under.)

In all honesty, I recommend reading those two threads at your leisure even if you decide not to allow psionics, so you have a more accurate grasp of it's power level V. Magic of all forms.

EDIT: Formatting.

EDIT2: You're banning TRIPPING? Because someone who was good at it was good at it? (Seriously, your reasoning behind banning trip is the lamest reasoning behind any banning I've EVER SEEN.) Have the dragons fly, then, as you can't trip something that isn't on the ground.

Boci
2009-11-03, 02:38 PM
As I said, asking people to play nice has not worked before.

Kill there character, then true rezz them. Remind then that next time they might not be true rezzed.[/QUOTE]


I can't say I blame them. Would you go up to an army solder and tell him stop doing 100 pushups, that makes your str OP?

Irrelevant to a social game.


Adventurers who fight for their own and others' life or death should do the optimal thing. It is my job to make sure those with less knowledge are not made insignificant in comparison.

So the people with a lot of gaming knowledge help those who do not have it.

I would never play in such a game as this. The DM does not trust the PCs, and expects them to break the game or at least try. This is not D&d, its whose better: the Dm at coming up with houserules or the PCs at sidestepping them.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 02:42 PM
I reccomend you actually reply instead of editting. Much easier to see the flow of conversation.


@Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it)

I can think of half a dozen books off the top of my head that are crazier.


@Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.

Im very familiar with reserve feats. Im pretty sure that neither of those work like that. The elemental one, for example allows you to keep summoning very weak elementals...but to do that, you need to lock up a slot for each elemental you wish to be able to summon. The elementals are far too weak to be relevant in combat. Everything will one shot them. They are of use for finding pressure plates, but so is a rope and a brick.

Please, read rules before you ban them.


@Sinfire Titan and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Zore and @lsfreak
I do not want them to ever custom buy magic items. I want to keep strict control over it, for my sanity, and the fact that a few of my players will have no clue what to buy, and a few will know too well. At that point my banned magic item list will grow to 3 pages...
It falls upon me to make sure the new character gets a bunch of items quickly.

This honestly strikes me as more of a power thing. You're seriously disempowering the players with all these changes.


I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
hit you during your turn whether you hit him or not. (Can't remember details)
If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know. Sadly asking players not to min/max has been tried by other DMs and failed

I have no idea what you're talking about. Im afraid I need something more specific to suggest a solution, but blindly banning stuff isn't really a solution.


@Tyndmyr and @Foryn Gilnith
Grappling and tripping had to be banned when a certain person started doing it to dragons and larger. Please do not suggest I ban players ;)
Thanks. I will ban the spiked chain :)

Size modifiers and grapple modifiers for dragons of any size are...large. A mature adult black dragon, as a moderate example, has a +38 grapple modifier. This is at CR14. Depending on circumstances, size may make that even worse. As for tripping...dragons can fly.

If this is a serious problem, rules are probably being severely bent.

The problem is not just the spiked chain. The problem is every single reach weapon. If you ban all of those, you've made melee combat even more ineffectual and boring.


@Zore
Tumble is not impossible. All stats being equal (and the rogue should have a higher dex), the rogue has a +5 advantage over a similar level opponent. It is simply no longer automatic, like it was before.

It's not that simple. That's true only if the rogue has tumble maxed. Also, the +5 DC for each additional check instead of the standard +2 means that tumbling past multiple opponents is quite likely to fail. This is a significant loss of mobility for a rogue.


Agreed on Polymorph. I am watching it. For one thing, the lack of metagame means they can only change to what they have seen, and not to what they read on min/max forums.

Or to what they can make a knowledge(nature or other appropriate skill) check to know about, correct?



@Tyndmyr
Thanks. Banned Whisper Gnome (makes gnome completely obsolete). We have had a few of these. You said there are OP races. If so, feel free to specify.

Lesser Tiefling. In fact, most of the lesser planetouched are great. Also, all LA +0. Plenty of races are made much better by the variant area stuff. Im not saying these races are overpowered, merely that they are better than many alternatives. Strongheart halfling is also great. I suggest not trying to ban your way down to the lowest common denominator, but instead, give a small bonus to those who pick crappy races like half elf.

Ghost is the only overpowered LA +0/+1 race IMO.


A few people:
Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.

It is good at dealing with undead. Well, this isn't a surprise. It's a cleric, to begin with. Throw undead, and the cleric shines, while the rogue gets sad. Trap heavy dungeon with lots of shadows, the reverse. Everyone has their time to shine, and being specialized is very different from being overpowered.


Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.

You're going to ban everything that makes another feat obsolete? Look at toughness, then go nuts. You have a lot of banning ahead of you.


The limit of 1 action per player is to make combat go faster. Even at 2 actions limit per player, I would have some players that take the spotlight for twice as long as another. Uncontrolled "minions" follow the party like sleep-walkers.

It does make combat faster, but it makes enchantment utterly, absolutely worthless. And it was weak to start with. You've removed an entire playstyle.


Buffs going away upon unconsciousness decreases caster power because it makes them afraid. The rule and its consequences have changed the way casters act. Now they cast and run because the entire host of enemy will run towards them to "free" their "Held" comrades.

Huh? I'd take the Invisible spell metamagic and call it a day. If I bothered to care, given that I tend to be flying and have greater invisibility persisted from level 8-onward anyhow.

This has two real effects: It makes NPC spellcasters weaker...don't like the effects he put out? Blast him, and the encounter just got easy.

Secondly, it makes PC melee weaker, since if the caster buffs his party(and many do), they suddenly become weaker when the caster drops. This tends to make TPKs more likely.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:46 PM
This honestly strikes me as more of a power thing. You're seriously disempowering the players with all these changes.

I really think that's the point, given that player empowerment means a bunch of jerkholes act like jerkholes.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 02:48 PM
If they're committed to being jerks, then no particular set of rule changes will make them suddenly act nice.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 02:48 PM
I really think that's the point, given that player empowerment means a bunch of jerkholes act like jerkholes.That's not something you're going to solve with mechanical rules though.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 02:49 PM
I really think that's the point, given that player empowerment means a bunch of jerkholes act like jerkholes.

Instead, we get the fun of having melee characters who can't use reach weapons, can't trip, can't grapple, can't be effectively buffed, they lose on good feats because he balances melee towards terrible feats, and the biggest nerf casters have is... they can't use a theoretical kobold build to get higher leveled sorcerer casting? It just means there is even less reason to play a melee character.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:54 PM
That's not something you're going to solve with mechanical rules though.


If they're committed to being jerks, then no particular set of rule changes will make them suddenly act nice.

Sometimes I think you two are talking to yourself with those avatars.
I disagree, though. Rules change people's behavior, that's why they exist.


Instead, we get the fun of having melee characters who can't use reach weapons, can't trip, can't grapple, can't be effectively buffed, they lose on good feats because he balances melee towards terrible feats, and the biggest nerf casters have is... they can't use a theoretical kobold build to get higher leveled sorcerer casting? It just means there is even less reason to play a melee character.

I'm not sure why you're so hostile to someone who has admitted they haven't played in 10 years and wants to tone the power in their game down, and has come to the community for help in doing so.

Boci
2009-11-03, 02:55 PM
I'm not sure why you're so hostile to someone who has admitted they haven't played in 10 years and wants to tone the power in their game down, and has come to the community for help in doing so.

The fact that she won't listen to our advice? Now I understand that if someone says your doing something wrong you will argue with them. It will force them to be convincing so its useful. But quite a few more then 1 poster have bashed these house rules.

lsfreak
2009-11-03, 02:56 PM
I'm sure I'll be majorly ninja'd.



@Blackfang108 and @Tyndmyr
Hehe. I corrected Tome's spelling :) That book has some crazy stuff in it (and I don't have it)
No psionics just to make things simpler for me at the beginning. I will probably allow it later. For now, I'll do without the complications (and multiple actions) that many psionic powers allow.
Psionics is less gamebreaking than wizards and sorcerers, though for the sake of simplicity I understand banning it.
As for ToB, suffice to say that ToB still isn't as powerful as a mid-level wizard or cleric or druid, and doesn't even deal as much damage as a well-built fighter or barbarian. It's just the ToB starts out well-built without trying, while you have to know what you're doing to make a fighter stand a chance. I'd seriously suggest banning all melee but ToB characters rather than the reverse if you're worried about some players being more powerful than others.



@Kylarra and @Boci and @Tyndmyr and @Myou
There are some killer reserves out there. The one that teleports you away as an immediate action each round, and the one that gives you an elemental all day will put too much of a power differential between those who will (ab)use it and those you don't know what a reserve feat is. I do plan on allowing reasonable uses of Reserve Feat, which is why it says"(ask)" after it.
The teleport is an ACF for a wizard (which, since your ruling on not being able to actually use familiars, you'd be an idiot NOT to take). The Summon Elemental one is practically worthless except for setting off traps.



I do not want them to ever custom buy magic items. I want to keep strict control over it, for my sanity, and the fact that a few of my players will have no clue what to buy, and a few will know too well. At that point my banned magic item list will grow to 3 pages...
It falls upon me to make sure the new character gets a bunch of items quickly.
As long as they get them quickly. A better option might be to have a list of items that you can choose from and say, "you have a belt of ogres strength +4, a +1 keen greatsword, and a +1 mithril breastplate" rather than no items.



I am afraid of kobolds because of all the dragon blood cheese things that can happen.
Ban epic feats and loredrakes for dragonwrought kobolds.


If I have missed an OP tactic, please let me know.
We have no idea what your definition of "OP" is (you seem to be fine with batman wizards but don't like rogues hitting for almost anything?), and even if we did there's, quite frankly, too many to name.



I have seen Robillar Gambit used by one of my players to make an invincible fighter
Fly + Mirror Image + Displacement makes wizards as invincible as a Robilar's Gambit fighter, I don't see you banning those. Let alone Celerity, Timestop, Polymorph, Shapechange, Gate, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Greater Teleport.
[I think what most of us are basically saying is, you see big numbers given by fighters and that deludes you into thinking "overpowered." It's a common misconception that lots of dice = power and a perfectly understandable one, but suffice to say that melee has the short end of the power]



Grappling and tripping had to be banned when a certain person started doing it to dragons and larger. Please do not suggest I ban players ;)
If dragons were in range of them, they deserved to be tripped. Seriously, if a dragon LANDS, it deserves to die. Also, if they built their character that much around tripping (they would have needed Enlarge Person and a huge number of bonuses to reliably trip a Huge dragon), then they have horrible weaknesses elsewhere. Anything that doesn't land, for example. Banning something because, when focused on to the exclusion of something else, is looked down upon on these forums.


Palor is in every way better than a generic Cleric, and completely destroys any thread of my throwing undead at them.
Most PrC's worth taking are in every way better than their base. Loremaster is better than wizard, frenzied berserker is better than barbarian, assassin is better than rogue.


Not sure why people call Craven balanced. I have yet to meet a rogue that thought another feat is better than +20 (at lvl 20) per sneak attack. Would you call a feat that adds 6d6 to each sneak attack balanced (average damage +21)? I think there is a feat that adds 1d6. So starting at character level 4, Craven makes the other feat obsolete.
Power Attack does the same. Improved Trip 'obsoletes' Weapon Focus. Empower and Split Ray and Quicken are effectively no-brainers.


The limit of 1 action per player is to make combat go faster. Even at 2 actions limit per player, I would have some players that take the spotlight for twice as long as another. Uncontrolled "minions" follow the party like sleep-walkers.
And it severely cripples any build that has multiple guys. Summoners, necromancers, enchanters, bards, paladins, rangers.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 02:56 PM
Sometimes I think you two are talking to yourself with those avatars.
I disagree, though. Rules change people's behavior, that's why they exist.
Rules limit their behavior, but if they're going to be jerks with no limits, they'll still be jerks with limits, and just try to find loopholes.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 02:56 PM
Sometimes I think you two are talking to yourself with those avatars.
I disagree, though. Rules change people's behavior, that's why they exist.


No, rules change the game. They don't change the people. If people want to be jerks, they will be jerks. You can play candy land and still be an ass. This has absolutely nothing to do with the rules, and if you can't get over this adversarial crap, the game will suck regardless of how many houserules you throw at it.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:58 PM
How the heck can you be a jerk at candyland?


I'm not sure why you think all of my commentary is hostile, and have taken time in every post mentioning me to piont it out. It's constructive criticism, which is what was asked for.

The deliberate use of sarcasm.


The way that it's been toned down is to make melee characters unbuffable and only able to say "I charge" or "I full attack" while allowing them only the bare minimum of damage increases, while casters get absolutely no nerfs besides strange ones (banning kobolds, a weak race entirely, because of a theoretical cheese you could just ban instead?)

Um, there's no DMM or the most broken of caster prcs. The nerf to minions is great. If there was an exception for mounted warrior types and rangers, then it would work. As it is, a paladin can't actually charge on his warhorse.

He's also getting rid of polymorph effects, which basically turns your familiar into a horrible monstrosity, and lets the level 3 wizard out fight the party melee.

[edit]
Kobold is in no way a weak race. It's on par with human.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure why you're so hostile to someone who has admitted they haven't played in 10 years and wants to tone the power in their game down, and has come to the community for help in doing so.

I'm not sure why you think all of my commentary is hostile, and have taken time in every post mentioning me to piont it out. It's constructive criticism, which is what was asked for.

The way that it's been toned down is to make melee characters unbuffable and only able to say "I charge" or "I full attack" while allowing them only the bare minimum of damage increases, while casters get absolutely no nerfs besides strange ones (banning kobolds, a weak race entirely, because of a theoretical cheese you could just ban instead?)

Boci
2009-11-03, 02:59 PM
How the heck can you be a jerk at candyland?

I don't know the game but you can be a jerk OOC so thats all games covered by default.

monkey3
2009-11-03, 03:00 PM
OK, I will reply here, but I don't know how to reply to multiple posts.

@Kylarra and @Tyndmyr
"Dimensional Jaunt is a standard action to teleport 5'*spell level, hardly game breaking, perhaps you're thinking of Abrupt Jaunt, the ACF for conjurers in PHB2?"
Thanks for the correction. I fear them both. The first makes the shadow jump trivial, as well as many traps. The second is just crazy. Added Ban:Abrupt Jaunt; thanks.

@Myrmex
Thanks. I will keep an eye out for the calling spells (like Gate, Planar Binding, and Planar Ally). My group is pretty stingy about spending experience, but it is on my watch list. Remember, while your summon is doing something, you are not!
Added Ban:"Darkstalker & Mindsight." Although I might allow Darkstalker at some point (if the rogue feels underpowered).



Others:
Banning players is not acceptable. We are all friends, and they play within the rules. That's why I need so many rules. Escalating the monster CR to match the OP player does not work because it makes the novice players even more insignificant, even if the monster mysteriously ignores them and goes after the min/maxer.

To those saying I am taking some of the flavor out of the game, I agree. It is a balancing act that I have to watch, and make sure I don't overdo the limitations vs. options. As I get more comfortable with the game, and my players relax into teamwork, my intention is to add back in as many rules as I can.

As always, thanks for the comments.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:00 PM
How the heck can you be a jerk at candyland?Same way you can be a jerk in real life without any games going on?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 03:02 PM
To those saying I am taking some of the flavor out of the game, I agree. It is a balancing act that I have to watch, and make sure I don't overdo the limitations vs. options. As I get more comfortable with the game, and my players relax into teamwork, my intention is to add back in as many rules as I can.

As always, thanks for the comments.

Flavor, hell. You've taken effective melee characters out of the game.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:03 PM
Same way you can be a jerk in real life without any games going on?

Ok.
But that's irrelevant.

I can be a really nice guy OOC and still make your character entirely useless.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:03 PM
OK, I will reply here, but I don't know how to reply to multiple posts.

@Kylarra and @Tyndmyr
"Dimensional Jaunt is a standard action to teleport 5'*spell level, hardly game breaking, perhaps you're thinking of Abrupt Jaunt, the ACF for conjurers in PHB2?"
Thanks for the correction. I fear them both. The first makes the shadow jump trivial, as well as many traps. The second is just crazy. Added Ban:Abrupt Jaunt; thanks.
... when did shadow jump, an ability for a single PrC, set a precedent for what a wizard can or cannot do?

In light of making other things trivial, I propose you ban: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Bard, Duskblade, and Factotum.

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:04 PM
Banning players is not acceptable. We are all friends, and they play within the rules. That's why I need so many rules. Escalating the monster CR to match the OP player does not work because it makes the novice players even more insignificant, even if the monster mysteriously ignores them and goes after the min/maxer.

I would not need these houserules to play with anyone I call a friend.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:05 PM
@Kylarra and @Tyndmyr
"Dimensional Jaunt is a standard action to teleport 5'*spell level, hardly game breaking, perhaps you're thinking of Abrupt Jaunt, the ACF for conjurers in PHB2?"
Thanks for the correction. I fear them both. The first makes the shadow jump trivial, as well as many traps. The second is just crazy. Added Ban:Abrupt Jaunt; thanks.

What's Shadow Jump?

And Dimension Jaunt is by no means overpowered. I've played with it, and DM'd over it. It's too short to truly mess up anything, and there are better uses for a standard action in combat.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:06 PM
I would not need these houserules to play with anyone I call a friend.

But he does.

Jayabalard
2009-11-03, 03:06 PM
Well yes, obviously there are worse races.

The point is, he's banning a race, when there are better, unbanned options available. This makes the ban pointless.Not really, it just means that therre are other races that need banning as well that the OP didn't mention.


I would not need these houserules to play with anyone I call a friend.plenty of people play with people who aren't friends.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:06 PM
Shadow jump already is trivial. Seriously, the PrC it comes with is only decent for a 1-2 level dip, and even then you have to spend so many feats that it's not worth it. Plus, it's insanely limited. You know what else makes it trivial; Horizen Walkers with the Shifting planar terrain feature. And it's easier to qualify for, and is a better PrC overall.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:07 PM
Ok.
But that's irrelevant.

I can be a really nice guy OOC and still make your character entirely useless.Sure, but you can also be a jerk OOC and make a character entirely useless.

Jerkitude is not something that will be remedied by houserules.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:07 PM
Shadow jump already is trivial. Seriously, the PrC it comes with is only decent for a 1-2 level dip, and even then you have to spend so many feats that it's not worth it. Plus, it's insanely limited. You know what else makes it trivial; Horizen Walkers with the Shifting planar terrain feature. And it's easier to qualify for, and is a better PrC overall.

HiPS as a dip is REALLY nice. You need what, 5 or 6 levels to get the shifting planar feature?


Jerkitude is not something that will be remedied by houserules.

The problem, though, is not OOC jerkitude, but RAW jerkitude.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:09 PM
The problem, though, is not OOC jerkitude, but RAW jerkitude.

Which is always an extension of OOC Jearkitude.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:11 PM
HiPS as a dip is REALLY nice. You need what, 5 or 6 levels to get the shifting planar feature?

6, but he's not talking about HiPS, he's talking about Shadow Jump, which the Horizen walker does better.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:11 PM
The problem, though, is not OOC jerkitude, but RAW jerkitude.The problem is that you don't seem to be connecting the two. RAW jerkitude is by extension OOC jerkitude if you're building characters that obsolete others without trying to help them.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 03:12 PM
But he does.

No, he *thinks* he does.

If he truly does, he needs new friends.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:13 PM
No, he *thinks* he does.

If he truly does, he needs new friends.Well either that or a game that doesn't reward game mastery to the same level that 3.X does.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:14 PM
Which is always an extension of OOC Jearkitude.

Not really.
It's often a product of miscommunication.

If someone for monkey3's game came on here and asked for help optimizing a character using current RAW, I can guarantee you GitP would give him a character that was too powerful for monkey3's game. Does that make us all jerks?

Explicit house rules are 100% necessary for a functional game.


6, but he's not talking about HiPS, he's talking about Shadow Jump, which the Horizen walker does better.

I guess what I am saying is that Horizon Walker (teleporting) is good for a different reason than Shadow Dancer is (HiPS).


No, he *thinks* he does.

If he truly does, he needs new friends.


Well either that or a game that doesn't reward game mastery to the same level that 3.X does.

Seriously.

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:15 PM
Well either that or a game that doesn't reward game mastery to the same level that 3.X does.

Or players willing to share their mastery of the game with the newbies. Common courtesy as its also known.



Explicit house rules are 100% necessary for a functional game.

I currently have 2 games which no such house rules. How long until they collapse?

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:15 PM
Well either that or a game that doesn't reward game mastery to the same level that 3.X does.

4e?

CoC?

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:16 PM
4e?

CoC?4e does have a few system mastery tricks, though not on as great of a scale as 3.X, but I did think of that as well.


Or players willing to share their mastery of the game with the newbies. Common courtesy as its also known.Well yeah, that's part of the OOC jerkitude I was talking about before.

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 03:18 PM
Not really.
It's often a product of miscommunication.

If someone for monkey3's game came on here and asked for help optimizing a character using current RAW, I can guarantee you GitP would give him a character that was too powerful for monkey3's game. Does that make us all jerks?

Explicit house rules are 100% necessary for a functional game.

For this reason, when encountering new or inexperienced players, I constantly repeat "but play as appropriate to your game's power level," or some variation thereof.

lsfreak
2009-11-03, 03:19 PM
Can we get back to critiquing house rules instead of comparing friends?

@monkey3:
The biggest problem is that you're trying to ban everything that you deem "overpowered." The problem is that *anything* that helps someone to focus in on a specific role can be seen as "overpowered."

Another problem is you're looking at it small-picture. You don't like Craven because it gives ~6d6 extra damage. Now look at the 2nd-level spell Glitterdust, which will effectively kills every single guy that fails the same. This is a second-level spell. There are countless spells that are more powerful; you'd have to literally spend days doing nothing but going through books to ban them. Now consider that no melee can come close to doing something like that, except to deal a large amount of damage and drop the guy in a single hit. The problem being that the fighter is still limited to killing one guy a round, while the wizard just took out an entire encounter. It's simply not possible to balance the game in the way you seem to want to.

You're also looking to class features as guidelines, to make sure things don't overlap, when WotC had no concept of making good classes in the first place. So you're trying to balance a game around making sure that no one is able to reproduce an already-****ty class feature.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:20 PM
Well yeah, that's part of the OOC jerkitude I was talking about before.

And I learned system mastery from a long-time player. That is houw the art of Charop should be passed on through the ages.

"I come from the Blackfang School of Charop!"

"Your grandmaster was a chump! I come from the Sinfire Titan School of Charop!"

Third: "Fight it out, and we shall see who's Char-Fu is Stronger!"

Oh...

oh no...

I think I just found Jackie Chan's new movie.:smallbiggrin:

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:23 PM
And I learned system mastery from a long-time player. That is houw the art of Charop should be passed on through the ages.

"I come from the Blackfang School of Charop!"

"Your grandmaster was a chump! I come from the Sinfire Titan School of Charop!"

Third: "Fight it out, and we shall see who's Char-Fu is Stronger!"

Oh...

oh no...

I think I just found Jackie Chan's new movie.:smallbiggrin:

I'd watch that in a heatbeat.:smallbiggrin:

Also, the main character comes from the little know master known only as Tippy....

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:23 PM
Not really.
It's often a product of miscommunication.

If someone for monkey3's game came on here and asked for help optimizing a character using current RAW, I can guarantee you GitP would give him a character that was too powerful for monkey3's game. Does that make us all jerks?

Us, no.
The player, yes, because the player didn't bother mentioning that there were relevant houserules, while knowing why those houserules existed.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:23 PM
For this reason, when encountering new or inexperienced players, I constantly repeat "but play as appropriate to your game's power level," or some variation thereof.

Given that you have power levels from monks with great cleave to nanobots, how do you know?
One person's overpowered is T3, while others like to play at T1.

It seems to me like monkey3 wants a T4 game, but doesn't really know how to go about it, while some of his players push for T1. Given these players, he needs to say "look, I'm giving you hard, definitive answers to what you can and cannot do."

What is so upsetting about this?


Us, no.
The player, yes, because the player didn't bother mentioning that there were relevant houserules, while knowing why those houserules existed.

The last page has been a half dozen people telling me that monkey3 doesn't need house rules, he just needs to tell his players "not to be jerks."

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:25 PM
Given that you have power levels from monks with great cleave to nanobots, how do you know?
One person's overpowered is T3, while others like to play at T1.

It seems to me like monkey3 wants a T4 game, but doesn't really know how to go about it, while some of his players push for T1. Given these players, he needs to say "look, I'm giving you hard, definitive answers to what you can and cannot do."

What is so upsetting about this?

The fact that he failing miserable? What has he done with his house rules to limit a T1 class's power?

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:26 PM
The fact that he failing miserable? What has he done with his house rules to limit a T1 class's power?

What have you done to help him, other than tell him he is failing miserably and that he needs new friends?

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:27 PM
The fact that he failing miserable? What has he done with his house rules to limit a T1 class's power?

Umm...he's slightly limited a T1's PrC options, and nerfed a few things. Kinda.


Beyond that he's basically screwed Melee even more. Oh, and then screwed it again.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:28 PM
Given that you have power levels from monks with great cleave to nanobots, how do you know?
One person's overpowered is T3, while others like to play at T1.

It seems to me like monkey3 wants a T4 game, but doesn't really know how to go about it, while some of his players push for T1. Given these players, he needs to say "look, I'm giving you hard, definitive answers to what you can and cannot do."

What is so upsetting about this? the "upsetting part", and I use the term loosely only because you used it, is simply the manner with which he is going about banning things. The arbitrariness that hits a fair amount of things across the board without a real pattern. For instance, melee is hit really hard, whereas druid, wizard, cleric, sorcerer are left pretty untouched. For all that I love reserve feats and using them, they're subpar options from a strict optimization standpoint.



The last page has been a half dozen people telling me that monkey3 doesn't need house rules, he just needs to tell his players "not to be jerks."
Oh I don't think houserules are necessarily a bad thing or unnecessary, my point has always and solely been the fact that houserules will not correct jerkitude. If a player refuses to lower his power level due to some reason or another, and refuses to help others, his op-fu will come forward within the restraints and continue to overshadow the newbies.

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:30 PM
What have you done to help him, other than tell him he is failing miserably

I told him he was going about it the wrong way.


that he needs new friends?

Your right, I'm wrong. I wish I had some friend like this. The king I have to write an essay on houserules beofre playing which. That must be a good sign of deep friendship.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:33 PM
the "upsetting part", and I use the term loosely only because you used it, is simply the manner with which he is going about banning things. The arbitrariness that hits a fair amount of things across the board without a real pattern. For instance, melee is hit really hard, whereas druid, wizard, cleric, sorcerer are left pretty untouched. For all that I love reserve feats and using them, they're subpar options from a strict optimization standpoint.

I agree with you. I just don't think the answer is: get new friends. Actually, I really hate that answer. It's a non-answer.


Oh I don't think houserules are necessarily a bad thing or unnecessary, my point has always and solely been the fact that houserules will not correct jerkitude. If a player refuses to lower his power level due to some reason or another, and refuses to help others, his op-fu will come forward within the restraints and continue to overshadow the newbies.

You can really close the power gap, though.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 03:34 PM
I told him he was going about it the wrong way.


This. We also explained *why* it was the wrong way. Plenty of people did.

I can make a horrifically broken caster...let me correct that, I can horrifically break any casting class under this system, and melee are so crippled that all I need to do is ensure they can't hit me, and they're harmless. I don't even need to bother flying.

It simply makes no sense to claim he wants a T4 game when he's doing little to casters, and trying to nerf fighters, rogues and monks.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:35 PM
You can really close the power gap, though.
Yes you can, but he's not doing so in any appreciable manner*. I suggested a very simple way to close the power gap earlier on myself.


*from a strict optimization standpoint again

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:43 PM
It simply makes no sense to claim he wants a T4 game when he's doing little to casters, and trying to nerf fighters, rogues and monks.

I think it has to do with him seeing fighters putting a lot of hurt on things in action but never seeing a gate-raping wizard.


I told him he was going about it the wrong way.

Yes, Boci, you did. Your criticism amounted to "hey, I agree with this I don't with this; get new friends."

I was just a little underwhelmed with your advice. Others pointed out actual deficiencies with his rules, such as casters still having overwhelming access to really powerful stuff.

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:46 PM
Yes, Boci, you did. Your criticism amounted to "hey, I agree with this I don't with this; get new friends."

My first post was mainly for clarification, notice I asked a lot of question in it. The get new friends came latter, and I still stand by it. You should be able to trust friends.


I was just a little underwhelmed with your advice. Others pointed out actual deficiencies with his rules, such as casters still having overwhelming access to really powerful stuff.

I explained to him why some of the listed options weren't as bad as he thought, such as kobolds and robilar's gambit. At least I didn't encourage it.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:49 PM
Really, if no one can agree on the level of game they want to play, it's better to find a new group than have disgruntled players/Dm's. Nothing good can come of that.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:51 PM
Yes you can, but he's not doing so in any appreciable manner*. I suggested a very simple way to close the power gap earlier on myself.


*from a strict optimization standpoint again

I don't mean to keep picking on Boci, it's just that I REALLY CAN'T STAND the get new friends advice, but I believe monkey3 is asking for advice on how to close power-gaming gaps. Why else would he present the rules he's working on to the internet? To show off how cool and smart he is?

Anyway, I think we should be encouraging monkey3 to have players use psionics, ToB, and GOD/Batman Wizards that work most efficiently with a party (debuff, control, and buff). Given that his players are strict RAWtards, he is going to need rules to encourage this, which means the removal of a lot of spells, feats, and prestige classes and mandatory introduction of ToB/psychic warriors.

[edit]
Get rid of abilities that lower metamagic costs. Arcane Thesis is one of the most egregious offenders. DMM is another one. Clerics without DMM take a lot longer to become powerful in combat.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 03:54 PM
I think it has to do with him seeing fighters putting a lot of hurt on things in action but never seeing a gate-raping wizard.

Let me clarify. A dumb as rocks blaster wizard with a very basic understanding of buffs will make his pointy stick users irrelevant. Things like gate are irrelevant. If you ban trip, disarm, grapple(yay for getting rid of one thing casters invariably hate), fighters are left with "stab them" and "Power Attack!", which Im amazed he hasn't banned yet.

They have no control whatsoever(and frankly, fighters never had much to start with). Even the dumbest wizard doesn't take 100% blasty spells.

You could specialize in evocation, ban conjuration and, lesse, transmutation, stay entirely within core, and rock the fighters of his world.

Boci
2009-11-03, 03:55 PM
I don't mean to keep picking on Boci, it's just that I REALLY CAN'T STAND the get new friends advice, but I believe monkey3 is asking for advice on how to close power-gaming gaps. Why else would he present the rules he's working on to the internet? To show off how cool and smart he is?

I was just shocked (and still am) that the OP cannot just talk to his friends. I know I kept going on about it, but I was waiting for the OP to respond and it gave me something to do before he did.



Anyway, I think we should be encouraging monkey3 to have players use psionics, ToB, and GOD/Batman Wizards that work most efficiently with a party (debuff, control, and buff). Given that his players are strict RAWtards, he is going to need rules to encourage this, which means the removal of a lot of spells, feats, and prestige classes and mandatory introduction of ToB/psychic warriors.

Lets just hope he listens.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:56 PM
Anyway, I think we should be encouraging monkey3 to have players use psionics, ToB, and GOD/Batman Wizards that work most efficiently with a party (debuff, control, and buff). Given that his players are strict RAWtards, he is going to need rules to encourage this, which means the removal of a lot of spells, feats, and prestige classes and mandatory introduction of ToB/psychic warriors.I will always be an advocate of player/DM communication. Banning things haphazardly as a result of faulty premises will only further the skew of potential power levels. Banning things in an effort to forcibly moderate power levels is treating the symptoms, not the cause. The cause will always be the players, and if you have players that are determined to be jerks with their characters, no amount of houseruling is going to stop this.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 03:56 PM
Really, if no one can agree on the level of game they want to play, it's better to find a new group than have disgruntled players/Dm's. Nothing good can come of that.

This. If it's going to be a constant battle, with each side trying to endlessly get an edge, it will not be a fun game. If the game isn't fun, there isn't much point to be playing it.

Note that "get a new gaming group" is different from "get new friends". I would hope that gaming with someone isn't a prerequisite to being friends with them.

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 03:57 PM
Given that you have power levels from monks with great cleave to nanobots, how do you know?
One person's overpowered is T3, while others like to play at T1.

It seems to me like monkey3 wants a T4 game, but doesn't really know how to go about it, while some of his players push for T1. Given these players, he needs to say "look, I'm giving you hard, definitive answers to what you can and cannot do."

What is so upsetting about this?

There is nothing 'upsetting' about this to me; this is a general comment that I feel should be made; I think too much of the advice given on GitP is within a vacuum or at times is even strident in order to get someone to argue with their DM to play a certain way.


The fact that he failing miserable? What has he done with his house rules to limit a T1 class's power?

...Like this.

Saying that he is 'failing miserably' is not helping, Neither, I feel, are the people who are arguing for variant rules such as Tome of Battle and Psionics. I love both books dearly, I think they're some of the best things from 3.5, but I'm starting to be bothered by the fact that as soon as someone says that they don't want one or the other for whatever reason, the thread tilts into that direction.

However, I do not think that bulleted lists of houserules are the most efficient solution to this problem, monkey, precisely because that - as the houserules stand - they are setting out very clear 'no' areas and leaving most of the things permissable. Frex - instead of removing specific prestige classes, say, "Prestige Classes that universally improve a character's progression in all areas for little sacrifice are not permitted," and then list your bans (such as Radiant Servant of Pelor) as examples.

Simply put, there are too many combinations and too many basic elements to really effectively ban like this. I would focus on outlining and refining your general approach to improving disparities; for example, if not using Tome of Battle, I feel you should make more efforts to allow melee a variety of viable combat tactics rather than restricting them, since that is essentially the core of their issues. Dealing with a bullet list like this is dealing with symptoms, not causes.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 03:58 PM
Anyway, I think we should be encouraging monkey3 to have players use psionics, ToB, and GOD/Batman Wizards that work most efficiently with a party (debuff, control, and buff). Given that his players are strict RAWtards, he is going to need rules to encourage this, which means the removal of a lot of spells, feats, and prestige classes and mandatory introduction of ToB/psychic warriors.


Hey, I linked to the two greates Psionics threads: the FAQ, that explains everything he needs to know, and some things he might not have thought of, and the "Psionics is not OP and here's why" thread. If that's not encouragement, I don't know what is.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 04:01 PM
If we're coming across as negative, it's probably because we told him that his approach wasn't ideal, and gave a number of examples as to why. Instead of discussing the overall approach, he merely added the examples to the banned list.

This is missing the point, and will certainly not solve the problem.

Boci
2009-11-03, 04:02 PM
...Like this.

Its true. He was failing miserable at his goal. I could have phrased it nicer, and I probably would have had i been in a better mood, but its still true, even if its harsh.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:04 PM
Let me clarify. A dumb as rocks blaster wizard with a very basic understanding of buffs will make his pointy stick users irrelevant. Things like gate are irrelevant. If you ban trip, disarm, grapple(yay for getting rid of one thing casters invariably hate), fighters are left with "stab them" and "Power Attack!", which Im amazed he hasn't banned yet.

They have no control whatsoever(and frankly, fighters never had much to start with). Even the dumbest wizard doesn't take 100% blasty spells.

You could specialize in evocation, ban conjuration and, lesse, transmutation, stay entirely within core, and rock the fighters of his world.

About 6 years ago, I played a half-orc barbarian in a party of fighters, clerics, rogues, a monk, a druid, and another barbarian. We even had a 3.0 ranger. A blaster wizard later joined. We played how you're "supposed to play D&D." We fought largely giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, animals and goblinoids- low level CR appropriate encounters. Things often had levels in adept or cleric. We had a huge party- about 8 at any time.

The melee characters did best (not the monk, he was arguably the worst), and all we ever used was cleave & charge. Mind you we started at level 1 and went to level 9 (meeting once a weak, that took close to a year). The clerics used a lot of spell slots on healing, the druid never wildshaped, and the wizard just blasted. The clerics would buff themselves in fights, but that took some time, and they didn't have as many feats available for hitting things with sticks.

The dumb as rocks blaster wizard wasn't that great, and none of us playing warriors knew crap about optimization.

So I guess I disagree with your premise, based on my limited experience as playing in a party of melee who didn't know what they were doing with a wizard that thought he knew what he was doing.

Boci
2009-11-03, 04:06 PM
About 6 years ago, I played a half-orc barbarian in a party of fighters, clerics, rogues, a monk, a druid, and another barbarian. We even had a 3.0 ranger. A blaster wizard later joined. We played how you're "supposed to play D&D." We fought largely giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, animals and goblinoids- low level CR appropriate encounters. Things often had levels in adept or cleric. We had a huge party- about 8 at any time.

The melee characters did best (not the monk, he was arguably the worst), and all we ever used was cleave & charge. Mind you we started at level 1 and went to level 9 (meeting once a weak, that took close to a year). The clerics used a lot of spell slots on healing, the druid never wildshaped, and the wizard just blasted. The clerics would buff themselves in fights, but that took some time, and they didn't have as many feats available for hitting things with sticks.

The dumb as rocks blaster wizard wasn't that great, and none of us playing warriors knew crap about optimization.

So I guess I disagree with your premise, based on my limited experience as playing in a party of melee who didn't know what they were doing with a wizard that thought he knew what he was doing.

In core maybe, but this game does not appear to be in core. Blasters gain some powerful spells outside core.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:07 PM
In core maybe, but this game does not appear to be in core. Blasters gain some powerful spells outside core.

We weren't in core.

Boci
2009-11-03, 04:09 PM
We weren't in core.

I would ask what spells was the wizard using, but I'm guessing you do not have his sheet handy.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 04:10 PM
My sig has some examples of various blaster wizards. In one of the various fighter vs wizard threads, Ive got a Foc Spec Conjurer(because they banned evoc specs...seriously)...go check out the damage potential, or look in actual games. Optimization levels vary due to different games being, well, different, but none of them are pushing optimization limits.

Look, just tossing out an unmodified fireball is an average of 21 damage per target in the area. At the level you get fireball, this is pretty good. You don't need crazy tricks to deal decent damage as a wizard, you just pick the most obviously damaging evocation spells for the level. If you get 4 targets, that's over 80 damage. How often does a melee fighters swing do that kind of damage at that level? Never, unless you've optimized.

monkey3
2009-11-03, 04:31 PM
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room." - Dr. Strangelove

I am trying no to apologize for creating the topic because it has been helpful to me, so I am glad I did it.

I think some of this thread has gone off-topic. But it is OK. I have gotten a lot out of it, as is. My goal was to create some rules to lessen the gap between the high powered players and the low powered players, so that the second group can have a little more fun that I have seen them have under previous DMs. To that end, this thread and your comments has helped me.

I do have to admit some of the rules (no psionics) is there simply to make things less complicated for me so I don't have to hit the rule books every 5 minutes. (Yet another book I don't have)

A lot of the controversial rules are there because someone screwed a previous campaign with it, and without a complete back-story, it would take too long to explain each one. As has been pointed out, there are other (better?) tactics that have not yet been used to screw a campaign, but they may do so in the future (mine?). Maybe the next DM would start with a sub-set of my rules and add his own personal horror stories.

My players are good people. They play within the rules, and do not cheat, but the really good ones don't believe in handcuffing themselves. I can't blame them. Which fighter refuses a Cleave because the barbarian did not take the feat?

What happens most often is that one min/maxer makes a second optimizer feel less significant in one session by some tactic. The second adjusts, and we get an arms race that leaves the beginners in dust. The escalation happens too slowly to be noticed, but after six months, the beginner might as well stop acting in the round.

No! I can't kick anyone out ;) And I would not, they are good people.

These house rules are a starting point to stem the escalation, and perhaps slow it down. Can we get back on topic?

Random832
2009-11-03, 04:34 PM
Like I said, solutions looking for a problem. Did you really say you're banning grapple because someone managed to grapple a dragon? Either they shouldn't have gotten away with grappling a dragon in the first place (in which case learn the rules), or they were doing something broken at some other point (in which case, don't focus on the last thing in a broken combo).

Banning grapple is ridiculous and any line of thinking which led you to the conclusion that it would be a good idea is flawed.

I'd also like to hear how Robilar's Gambit made a fighter "invincible".

Boci
2009-11-03, 04:35 PM
I'd also like to hear how Robilar's Gambit made a fighter "invincible"

It was a build on the CarOp boards, used some method of healing with each attack (I think it was half the damage dealt) to outheal the damage you would recieve from a melee brute of the same CR.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE=monkey3;I do have to admit some of the rules (no psionics) is there simply to make things less complicated for me so I don't have to hit the rule books every 5 minutes. (Yet another book I don't have)[/QUOTE]

The Expanded Psionics Handbook (including all of the rules regarding using psionics, minus a couple of races) is avaliable for free at www.d20srd.org and any other SRD website.

And seriously, read the links I provided a page or so ago. You'll spend maybe an hour or two and understand psionics almost as well as a psionic guru.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 04:37 PM
My players are good people. They play within the rules, and do not cheat, but the really good ones don't believe in handcuffing themselves. I can't blame them. Which fighter refuses a Cleave because the barbarian did not take the feat?
Play a different game then. You're not going to be able to ban everything to force a normative power level, possibly short of banning everything from tier 4 up. You have players that refuse to play to a certain power level, which means that 3.X is not the game for you.

If you're dead set on staying in 3.X, you'll need to explain to your players that they need to optimize to approximately the same level as the rest of the party. Going too high means that the encounters will have to be likewise scaled up to compensate, meaning that significantly lesser optimized players become dead weight, and leaving people too low obviously means the same.

Random832
2009-11-03, 04:39 PM
It was a build on the CarOp boards,

No, he said one of his players did it. And if one of his players used a CO board build, then he's deluding himself about "What happens most often". And in that case, ban that healing thing, not RG

Boci
2009-11-03, 04:41 PM
No, he said one of his players did it. And if one of his players used a CO board build, then he's deluding himself about "What happens most often". And in that case, ban that healing thing, not RG

That was my point.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:49 PM
@monkey3

Psionics is a really easy system to use. I would recommend reading up on it, and if newbies want to play a caster, encourage them to play a psion instead. They make EXCELLENT blasters, too, with almost no optimization.

You should also show the veteran players what teamwork can do- when they use stuff like slow, haste, solid fog, confusion, or glitterdust. Encourage them to use stuff that makes everyone play better, or the enemy play worse, but not see who can unload the most damage or whatever.

Alternatively, you can just find ways to make them less useful. Dwarves & 4 legged creatures aren't as weak vs. trip, for instance. If it's really trip that is causing problems, then use flying creatures or whatever. Part of DMing is adapting to problems by custom building monsters. A couple of class levels goes a long way on monsters.

For the newbs, don't have them play horrible classes. Just because they're new to the system doesn't mean you get to saddle them with an atrocious, out of the box base class, like wizard, cleric, barbarian, ranger, paladin or fighter. Have them play beguilers, warblades, duskblades, crusaders, etc. That way, they can actually do real damage and other cool stuff without any of the optimization. ToB isn't going to make the ubercharger or ubertripper THAT much better, compared to how much ToB will make a newb better, if that makes sense.


I would ask what spells was the wizard using, but I'm guessing you do not have his sheet handy.

Big ones were fireball, hailstorm, web, and lightning bolt. As an 8th level wizard, it's not like he had a whole lot of other spells prepared, either. Oh, and magic missile, mage armor, maybe shield. Invisibility, and shocking grasp, too. I can't ever remember him using haste, and this was the 3.0 good type of haste, too.


My sig has some examples of various blaster wizards. In one of the various fighter vs wizard threads, Ive got a Foc Spec Conjurer(because they banned evoc specs...seriously)...go check out the damage potential, or look in actual games. Optimization levels vary due to different games being, well, different, but none of them are pushing optimization limits.

Look, just tossing out an unmodified fireball is an average of 21 damage per target in the area. At the level you get fireball, this is pretty good. You don't need crazy tricks to deal decent damage as a wizard, you just pick the most obviously damaging evocation spells for the level. If you get 4 targets, that's over 80 damage. How often does a melee fighters swing do that kind of damage at that level? Never, unless you've optimized.

Well, fireball only came out a couple times/day, thanks to us being at low levels. And with cleave & rage, my barbarian was dropping 3-4 creatures/round, too.

And given the sorts of battles we fought (4 bruisers, 4 enemy casters, dozens of minions), single target stuff like orbs just wasn't worth it. Fire balling 8 orcs for the fighter to great cleave through was. Not that I'm defending fire ball, but our tactics worked for our game.

Wizard vs. fighter is a really, really horrible way to measure the usefulness of a class, as it puts a high premium on a bunch of stuff that doesn't really matter.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 09:12 PM
My players are good people. They play within the rules, and do not cheat, but the really good ones don't believe in handcuffing themselves. I can't blame them. Which fighter refuses a Cleave because the barbarian did not take the feat?

One that wants to be effective?

Seriously, the more you post, the more I wonder if you've seen any actual optimization at all.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 09:17 PM
One that wants to be effective?

Seriously, the more you post, the more I wonder if you've seen any actual optimization at all.

He may very well have seen theoretical optimization in his game, which is pretty crazy.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 09:20 PM
Yes, but the stuff he's posting doesn't lead torward that. For much of the stuff he's banning to be broken by any definition of the word, either someone is blatantly cheating, or he doesn't know the rules.

I find it difficult to believe that from a pure TO standpoint, all the trouble has come from fighters and rogues, while the full casters are lovely and balanced.

Pyro_Azer
2009-11-03, 09:22 PM
My players are good people. They play within the rules, and do not cheat, but the really good ones don't believe in handcuffing themselves. I can't blame them. Which fighter refuses a Cleave because the barbarian did not take the feat?

What happens most often is that one min/maxer makes a second optimizer feel less significant in one session by some tactic. The second adjusts, and we get an arms race that leaves the beginners in dust. The escalation happens too slowly to be noticed, but after six months, the beginner might as well stop acting in the round.

No! I can't kick anyone out ;) And I would not, they are good people.

These house rules are a starting point to stem the escalation, and perhaps slow it down. Can we get back on topic?

Therein lies the problem. The problem with banlists is they solve many problems but not the one you are dealing with. All your banlist will do is hurt the newbies who do not know how to optimize. The people who already do it will have no problem adapting under the new system as it is just another challenge to work around. This will not impede them at all when making characters. However, what it will do is severely limit what the newbie thinks he can play and thus he will come up with even weaker characters.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 09:32 AM
Therein lies the problem. The problem with banlists is they solve many problems but not the one you are dealing with. All your banlist will do is hurt the newbies who do not know how to optimize. The people who already do it will have no problem adapting under the new system as it is just another challenge to work around. This will not impede them at all when making characters. However, what it will do is severely limit what the newbie thinks he can play and thus he will come up with even weaker characters.

This. Have the "optimizers" help the newbies. THat's how I learned my Char-Fu, after all.

jiriku
2009-11-06, 04:39 PM
Monkey, as someone who also dearly loves his house rules (23 pages and counting, woohoo!), I can really relate with where you're coming from. You're the DM: success of the game experience is in your hands, and you take that responsibility seriously.

Several others have counseled that your house rules fail to accomplish their intended goal. I would agree with that. If I may suggest? Reverse course. Instead of banning specific tactics or options which allowed the optimizers to succeed, rewrite the bad options that allowed the newbies to fail.

Rewrite or ban all of the terrible feats, lousy prestige classes, and inferior base classes that your newbies are choking themselves on and guide them towards flexible, easy classes like bard, beguiler, crusader, duskblade, factotum, rogue, scout, spirit shaman, swordsage, and warblade. consult with them during character creation and point out the strong combos. Encourage them to seek advice from the optimizers.

My own sprawling set of houserules is about 90% buffs to otherwise-weak options, 5% nerfs to abusive combos, and 5% stylistic stuff that I just like. Even though the ruleset is large, it doesn't interfere with gameplay because it hardly ever says "you can't do that". Players can refer to it at their convenience, or disregard it.

Also, I'd encourage you to focus your house rules exclusively on improving character creation options, and stay away from houseruling any combat mechanics. Changes to combat mechanics slow down play and punish people who don't commit the house rules to memory (read: your novices).

Hope this helps!