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View Full Version : [3.5] Kobolds, or why Unearthed Arcana is silly



Grushvak
2009-11-03, 01:56 PM
I'm playing a kobold in an upcoming campaign. No venerable dragonwrought loredrake greater draconic rite of passage sorcerer cheese, just a plain old kobold warlock with feats wasted on dragon wings.

I was looking forward to finding a creative in-game method to work around the light sensitivity issue. Magical tinted goggles or something similar, I thought. Then, I stumbled upon Desert Kobolds racial variant in UA.

I have to ask, what the hell? You switch -2 con (an all-important stat for casters) for -2 wis (lol dump stat). Already pretty frickin' great. Then comes the kicker: you trade light sensitivity, one of the biggest weaknesses crippling the kobold class, for... Heat Endurance? A bonus? Really UA?

Now, unless my DM tells me the campaign is starting in a desert, I'm sticking with regular kobold. I even took the nightsighted trait and murky-eyed flaw because I believe sight is a very interesting character weakness to play with in this campaign. But really... is there any incentive not to pick Desert Kobolds when optimizing?

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 01:57 PM
Yes, actually. They're in a non-core book, so your DM can go "ahahahaha no play something else".

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-03, 02:00 PM
Sundark Goggles, Races of the Dragon IIRC. 10 GP, eliminate the Light Sensitivity.

Melamoto
2009-11-03, 02:02 PM
Yes, actually. They're in a non-core book, so your DM can go "ahahahaha no play something else".

So no actual disadvantage.

Grushvak
2009-11-03, 02:02 PM
Sundark Goggles, Races of the Dragon IIRC. 10 GP, eliminate the Light Sensitivity.

That easy? Bah. Almost feels cheap.

I'll buy them in-game or have them crafted for me, it feels more rewarding that way. :smallconfused:

Eloel
2009-11-03, 02:06 PM
Kobolds are low power for a LA0 race - Desert Kobolds are more on par with 'normal' stuff (still they're no human).

Compare Halfling to Water Halfling and go cry.

Grushvak
2009-11-03, 02:09 PM
Kobolds are low power for a LA0 race - Desert Kobolds are more on par with 'normal' stuff (still they're no human).

Compare Halfling to Water Halfling and go cry.

One of my friends is playing a Ghostwise Halfling. I went "what" when I saw the base speed.

I understand the need to make non-core races more appealing than their core counterparts (humans aside), but sometimes they overdo it.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-03, 02:09 PM
Yes, actually. They're in a non-core book, so your DM can go "ahahahaha no play something else".

Your DM can also say that about druids, or humans, or feats, or...

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:10 PM
Kobolds are low power for a LA0 race - Desert Kobolds are more on par with 'normal' stuff (still they're no human).

Not if you use the web enhancement stuff. Then they get claw/claw/bite and count as a size smaller for opposed checks. Combine this with shrink person to make hide checks as a diminutive creature.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 02:10 PM
To be fair, desert kobolds live outside. Regular kobolds have light sensitivity because they live in caves and are made out of scraaaaaaaaaaaaaap.

Light sensitivity is a crap balance mechanic anyway, which is why the goggles linked above are so cheap.

Radiun
2009-11-03, 02:12 PM
I maintain that, as a race of miners, Kobolds should never have had a penalty to Con in the first place.
It's hard work being a miner

elonin
2009-11-03, 02:17 PM
There are also goggles in MIC that help vs light sensitivity. I'm not sure why but a lot of dm's don't care for unearthed arcana. Is it a 3.25 book?

Coidzor
2009-11-03, 02:18 PM
It's mostly rules variants and different ways of playing from the standard game, is why, I believe.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 02:18 PM
There are also goggles in MIC that help vs light sensitivity. I'm not sure why but a lot of dm's don't care for unearthed arcana. Is it a 3.25 book?

Nope, fully 3.5. Most DMs don't like it because it's basically a book of variants.

Grushvak
2009-11-03, 02:20 PM
There are also goggles in MIC that help vs light sensitivity. I'm not sure why but a lot of dm's don't care for unearthed arcana. Is it a 3.25 book?

"UA: Where cheese is born"

Pretty much every optional rule in UA is designed to make your character stronger. Really, that's all there is to it. Flaws are abused in CharOp, racial variants and regional variants are written without even an afterthought for balance, and more.

Then again, UA is nothing but optional rules, so the DM can and should veto anything he deems game-breaking. My DM allowed us to take flaws so I'm extremely happy, since I'll be able to get my fancy dragon wings without gimping my Eldritch Blast too much.

EDIT: On a slightly unrelated note, what would be the rules for throwing an ally? Just curious, since I have a half-orc party member and I'm so small and light to start with. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 02:24 PM
"UA: Where cheese is born"Filthy lies. Lies made of Lithium Einsteinium (LiEs).

UA is about fundamentally changing the game. The DM is supposed to use any alterations from the book across ALL creatures (even monsters)--otherwise, of course it's going to be broken.


On a slightly unrelated note, what would be the rules for throwing an ally? Just curious, since I have a half-orc party member and I'm so small and light to start with. :smalltongue:

Fling Ally is a feat from Races of Stone. It requires [Large size or Powerful Build] plus [racial Rock Hurling ability or Rock Throwing feat] and a big Str score.

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 02:28 PM
"UA: Where cheese is born"

Pretty much every optional rule in UA is designed to make your character stronger. Really, that's all there is to it. Flaws are abused in CharOp, racial variants and regional variants are written without even an afterthought for balance, and more.

I would argue the Desert Kobold is still a weak LA +0. Moreover, quite a few of the variant rules weaken characters (Druids, Martial Rogues), and several fundamentally make the game not work without extensive houseruling (most of the Armor Changes), and just generally, Unearthed Arcana was designed for DMs. The player segment of UA is really really small; as a DM, UA is one of the books I look through most. As a player, I look at it least, because the only good thing is flaws. And,...


Then again, UA is nothing but optional rules, so the DM can and should veto anything he deems game-breaking. My DM allowed us to take flaws so I'm extremely happy, since I'll be able to get my fancy dragon wings without gimping my Eldritch Blast too much.

Really, flaws are cheap. :| Those are weak feats, but that's not the solution. Flaws are a terrible idea and a terrible execution.

Gametime
2009-11-03, 02:50 PM
With very few exceptions, Unearthed Arcana is an excellent book. Most of the variants introduced are very balanced if they're ubiquitous, which they SHOULD be. The environmental races have some silly-good ones, and flaws are ridiculous, but there are some great options in there for variant rules for specific kinds of campaigns. Not to mention that a lot of the class feature variants are pretty awesome for building specific characters.

And yeah, Kobolds are pretty weak without a ton of splatbook material. Even with the RotD enhancement...oh boy, great hide checks and natural weapons. The Desert variant is still just barely good. Honestly, even a Desert Dragonwrought Kobold isn't INSANELY overpowered, although it starts to get up to the top tiers of races at that point. It's only with Loredrake nonsense that the silliness begins.

Telonius
2009-11-03, 02:55 PM
Fling Ally is a feat from Races of Stone. It requires [Large size or Powerful Build] plus [racial Rock Hurling ability or Rock Throwing feat] and a big Str score.

It also has a hilarious picture illustrating the feat.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ros_gallery/83327.jpg

Eldariel
2009-11-03, 03:01 PM
They lose out on their automatic weapon proficiencies. That's a notable deficit; getting Martial Weapons for any class and an Exotic for warrior classes is very handy. And that's without getting into Dark Chaos Shuffles.

So yeah, it's not a free gain, though of course -2 Wis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -2 Con and as such, they're still sorta better as long as not Shuffling.

Grushvak
2009-11-03, 03:52 PM
It also has a hilarious picture illustrating the feat.

I laughed out loud at work. Thanks a lot. I'm sending this to the guy who's playing the half-orc dragon shaman so I can convince him to take the feat.

I'll even have wings for long distance throws! :smallbiggrin:

Paulus
2009-11-03, 04:14 PM
UA strikes me as that book everyone likes and nobody likes, because there are great stuff in there people would love to use, but would hate have used against them. For example, I was severely taxed by people when I told them I though Battle Sorcerer was pretty balanced.

on both sides. "You loosing caster levels and spell slots it's TERRIBLE!!" "You get armor, a useful weapon AND Caster levels!? It's TERRIBLE!!" Kobolds are hilarity and I think they need all the help they can get. ...outside of cheese...


I laughed out loud at work. Thanks a lot. I'm sending this to the guy who's playing the half-orc dragon shaman so I can convince him to take the feat.

I'll even have wings for long distance throws! :smallbiggrin:

Also, seriously don't bother. It's a waste of a feat. People have been throwing allies and halflings and dwarves for AGES just fine without it. All you need is a grapple check, a strength check, and an improvised weapon penalty.

Grushvak
2009-11-03, 04:22 PM
A waste of a feat. People have been throwing allies and halflings and dwarves for AGES just fine without it. All you need is a grapple check, a strength check, and an improvised weapon penalty.

That's what I'd like to know: exactly how would the range be determined? If my DM agrees to rule in the Slight Build racial variant from the RotD web enhancement, what type of "improvised thrown weapon" would I be treated as? How would my 40lbs weight affect the throw? How would my Glide speed (20ft forward / 5ft down) affect the throw for that matter?

I want to come up with a rather detailed sheet to proudly present to my DM when we finally decide we're stupid enough to throw the kobold in the air during a battle.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 04:24 PM
That's what I'd like to know: exactly how would the range be determined? If my DM agrees to rule in the Slight Build racial variant from the RotD web enhancement, what type of "improvised thrown weapon" would I be treated as? How would my 40lbs weight affect the throw? How would my Glide speed (20ft forward / 5ft down) affect the throw for that matter?

Improvised thrown weapons have a range increment of 10' and a maximum range of 8 increments.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-03, 04:25 PM
I laughed out loud at work. Thanks a lot. I'm sending this to the guy who's playing the half-orc dragon shaman so I can convince him to take the feat.

The feat was designed for Goliaths and giantfolk. See Fax's post (from above):

Fling Ally is a feat from Races of Stone. It requires [Large size or Powerful Build] plus [racial Rock Hurling ability or Rock Throwing feat] and a big Str score.

So unless your orc buddy gets frequent access to enlarge person and has a couple feats to spare, you're kinda boned.


EDIT:

Improvised thrown weapons have a range increment of 10' and a maximum range of 8 increments.

Correction:

A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

And I don't see anything under the improvised weapons section to change how many they get.

Hurlbut
2009-11-03, 05:01 PM
The range increments aren't a problem; just aim high so he have the altitude to glide :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 05:04 PM
And I don't see anything under the improvised weapons section to change how many they get.

I always forget that thrown has a shorter max range than projectile.

Dimers
2009-11-04, 12:22 AM
I told them I thought Battle Sorcerer was pretty balanced.

I agree, basically. I mean, I respect highly the ability to wear armor -- if not for reasons of AC, then because you can have extra enchantments put onto it to save you from various kinds of nastiness. Now, I've found a trick for getting armor on an ordinary sorcerer anyway, but if the DM won't accept that trick and will accept the Battle Sorcerer, I'm all in favor of it. I think the tradeoff is fair.

@ OP: I'm in agreement with many other posters about how weak regular kobolds are (and of course another important weakness isn't even statted: they're viewed as monsters, not people, in most fantasy world societies). Whether intentionally or not, UA brought them closer to equal with other LA +0 PC races. Even that change wasn't strong enough to make me want to play a Desert Kobold ... after years of fighting them with low-level characters, I just can't think of them as intelligent or potent, which sounds like a disappointing game. Obviously your mileage DOES vary. :smalltongue: But I don't think you'd be getting an unfairly good deal if you had gone for the variant race.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-04, 12:29 AM
Getting armor on a Sorcerer isn't a trick, it's just a matter of having the Twilight enhancement available (a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt has an ASF of 0%).

Even without that, though, a +1 Mithril Buckler or Light Shield also has ASF 0%, and you can put enhancements on that.

Or you could enhance clothing or bracers of armor. Both are usually accepted (though I'm not certain they're allowed by RAW).

And in any case, the loss of a spell known per level is absolutely brutal and not worth it at all, at least IMO.

AstralFire
2009-11-04, 12:32 AM
Bracers of armor are explicitly allowed in one of the supplements, A&EG I believe.

Clothes are implied by the behavior of some wondrous item robes and the Greater Magic Vestment spell.

If I were to redo the Battle Sorcerer, I'd give them a small amount of Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

Coidzor
2009-11-04, 12:40 AM
That's what I'd like to know: exactly how would the range be determined? If my DM agrees to rule in the Slight Build racial variant from the RotD web enhancement, what type of "improvised thrown weapon" would I be treated as? How would my 40lbs weight affect the throw? How would my Glide speed (20ft forward / 5ft down) affect the throw for that matter?

I want to come up with a rather detailed sheet to proudly present to my DM when we finally decide we're stupid enough to throw the kobold in the air during a battle.

Your weight doesn't affect the throw, though some might houserule extra penalties for it.

Your glide speed would kick in after the throw was resolved, so you'd have a theoretical max range of 50 feet + 20 horizontally if you're thrown from about 5 feet high. If angles get into it, well, I'm guessing straight diagonally up and out from the thrower's... um... cube(?) would give the best max glide distance + horizontal distance, so I'd just make it be um...

let's see... 5, 15, 20, 30, 35, 45, 50.... 7 "squares" of distance up diagonally. So, um... hypotenuse of 50 .... math here and you get the horizontal distance traveled of x = 20(y) + z

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 12:50 AM
I agree, basically. I mean, I respect highly the ability to wear armor -- if not for reasons of AC, then because you can have extra enchantments put onto it to save you from various kinds of nastiness. Now, I've found a trick for getting armor on an ordinary sorcerer anyway, but if the DM won't accept that trick and will accept the Battle Sorcerer, I'm all in favor of it. I think the tradeoff is fair.Basically anything is better than losing a spell known. I've never met a Sorcerer who wasn't out of spells known well before he ran out of great spells. One of the few CO-endorsed reasons for losing caster levels is Sandshaper for a relatively small and inflexible group of additions to your list. Armor just isn't worth that, not when you can just stick the armor enhancements on your clothes or bracers or something.

Tavar
2009-11-04, 12:52 AM
Also, note that battle sorcerer forces you to go straight battle sorcerer, no PrC's or anything.

arguskos
2009-11-04, 12:57 AM
Basically anything is better than losing a spell known. I've never met a Sorcerer who wasn't out of spells known well before he ran out of great spells. One of the few CO-endorsed reasons for losing caster levels is Sandshaper for a relatively small and inflexible group of additions to your list. Armor just isn't worth that, not when you can just stick the armor enhancements on your clothes or bracers or something.
Or just ask for the highly reasonable request of Knowstones. :smalltongue:

Grumman
2009-11-04, 01:00 AM
One of the few CO-endorsed reasons for losing caster levels is Sandshaper for a relatively small and inflexible group of additions to your list.
Inflexible, sure, but small? That one level dip increases your spells known by 43, which doubles a sorcerer's spells known.

maijstral
2009-11-04, 01:01 AM
While we're on the topic, does anyone have any experience with Recharge Magic from the variant magic rules? What's the verdict? Broken, horribly broken, or no more broken than casters already are?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 01:04 AM
Inflexible, sure, but small? That one level dip increases your spells known by 43, which doubles a sorcerer's spells known.And the Sorcerer's spell list is small. ;)

Actually, I just remembered it as smaller, because generally I ignore the spells that require a desert campaign to matter.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-04, 01:09 AM
Also, note that battle sorcerer forces you to go straight battle sorcerer, no PrC's or anything.

What? No it doesn't.

Zeful
2009-11-04, 01:24 AM
Your DM can also say that about druids, or humans, or feats, or...

Yes but, from the player perspective, it's okay for a DM to ban material that isn't core, because players see themselves entitled to the core material.

daggaz
2009-11-04, 01:27 AM
Most of the UA stuff is actually pretty cool, tho many dont want to change their campaigns significantly enough to use it. One of my favorite concepts of all is total class remake variant, where you have warrior, caster, and expert (no not that expert) and are completely free to pick skills and feats, including class abilities as feats. It just needs a bigger class abilities list (any suitable DM can figure this out) and it is rock on. Cookie cutter style classes (yeah, it even happens in 3.5) are completely out the window.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 01:28 AM
Yes but, from the player perspective, it's okay for a DM to ban material that isn't core, because players see themselves entitled to the core material.I'd actually rather see him ban all core races and classes than certain non-core ones. ToB, XPH, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, Factotum, Scout make for a far more balanced(and IMHO fun) set of classes than the core ones, with similar archetypes covered and better flexibility.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 08:40 AM
But really... is there any incentive not to pick Desert Kobolds when optimizing?

Because you're still playing a filthy kobold, and you can expect lynch mobs or adventurers in pursuit, which your subpar race (unless you use Dragonwrought nonsense) will make you less effective in fighting.


That easy? Bah. Almost feels cheap.

It's a -1 penalty to attack rolls in certain limited conditions. Light Sensitivity isn't supposed to be major OMGWTFBBQ weakness. Few people play races with the ability anyway, so it's WotC's way to encourage them more, I guess.


One of my friends is playing a Ghostwise Halfling. I went "what" when I saw the base speed.

Much like being forced to pay 100 gp to identify a magic item, slow small races are a needless artifact at times. Simply "better than core" means little, as core has both the fighter and the monk overshadowed by the druid. I knew a guy who thought Appraise Magic Value was BROKEN. It's not. There's nothing wrong with giving a small race faster move, as was done with the kobold
Doesn't ghostwise halfling lose the halfling's save bonuses or something? Effectively -1 to all saves would balance it.


racial variants and regional variants are written without even an afterthought for balance
Citation needed. The races are balanced. Maybe not against the core races, but if applied universally the game does not become broken as a result.


Then again, UA is nothing but optional rules, so the DM can and should veto anything he deems game-breaking

Yeah. DMs should be less pansy about banning things. Conversely, DMs should also be more permissive of bizarre sourcebooks and homebrew; and not knee-jerk react to things as broken.


players see themselves entitled to the core material.

Unfortunate.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 09:15 AM
Yeah. DMs should be less pansy about banning things. Conversely, DMs should also be more permissive of bizarre sourcebooks and homebrew; and not knee-jerk react to things as broken.

This. This is very true.

Bayar
2009-11-04, 10:08 AM
Well, Strongheart halflings lose the +1 to saves and gain a bonus feat.

Desert Kobolds lose their bonuses to mining and trapsmithing. And I enjoy trapping everything I won when I play a kobold.

Dimers
2009-11-04, 06:25 PM
Basically anything is better than losing a spell known.

Heh. I would guess you're not a fan of wilders, then ... eleven spells known by twentieth level ... I view sorcerers as having a very limited role anyway, and the number of spells they can know considerably exceeds how many they need to know to fulfill that range of roles. So my comments are based on my limited perception. OTOH, I haven't exactly seen threads full of love for the vast utility of the sorcerer, so I'm not alone. :smallwink:

(Seriously, wilder? Eleven spells known?! Now, there I see a balance issue.)

ericgrau
2009-11-05, 12:53 AM
Fling Ally is a feat from Races of Stone. It requires [Large size or Powerful Build] plus [racial Rock Hurling ability or Rock Throwing feat] and a big Str score.

Really?? A feat? I remember playing a halfling rogue and when the half-orc wanted to chuck me for the flank, he simply did so. I took a d6 of falling damage both otherwise it was worth it. I hate feats for such specific things.

As for how to rule it, the thrower would need to have enough strength easily lift the shotput, based on max load and DM fiat. Then you detemine what size weapon that corresponds to. Like maybe the halfling's a large weapon for a medium creature. Then it's a -2 per size category above the thrower, plus penalties for the 10 foot range increment, and IIRC there's no improvised weapon penalty for thrown weapons. Find the total attack bonus and you're good to go. A square has AC 5, and if you miss then you roll a d8 for direction and move the halfling 1 range increment in that direction.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-05, 01:40 AM
Heh. I would guess you're not a fan of wilders, then ... eleven spells known by twentieth level ... I view sorcerers as having a very limited role anyway, and the number of spells they can know considerably exceeds how many they need to know to fulfill that range of roles. So my comments are based on my limited perception. OTOH, I haven't exactly seen threads full of love for the vast utility of the sorcerer, so I'm not alone. :smallwink:

(Seriously, wilder? Eleven spells known?! Now, there I see a balance issue.)
While the Wilder does get fewer powers known than I think it ought to, in this case, powers are not the same as spells. Powers are massively more flexible than spells, thanks to augmentations. It therefore hurts a Wilder much less.

That said, eleven is a really small number.

Also, in agreement with ericgrau. Easily one of my biggest gripes with 3.5 is the incessant need to make everything into feats.

Count Dravda
2009-11-05, 04:49 AM
Also, in agreement with ericgrau. Easily one of my biggest gripes with 3.5 is the incessant need to make everything into feats.

If one of my players took a feat like that, I'd just say, "Dude, you can do that for free. Pick something else."

-Count Dravda

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-11-05, 09:22 AM
While the Wilder does get fewer powers known than I think it ought to, in this case, powers are not the same as spells. Powers are massively more flexible than spells, thanks to augmentations. It therefore hurts a Wilder much less.
Problem is, augmentation, even when giving you an effectively higher powered version of the equivalent spell, is still just doing a stronger version of the same trick. There's no real flexibility. Augmenting psionic charm from the equivalent of charm person to extended charm monster doesn't change the fact that you're just making an enemy like you for a while. (And lets not get into the possibility of choosing too many powers that don't augment very well.)

The overall effect almost like forcing sorcerers to spend its higher level spell slots on improved _____ or greater _____ or _____ monster where "______" is a spell it already has and not letting him or her ditch the old version. And then denying it new spells known if it hasn't had the foresight to take the "lesser" versions.