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Zovc
2009-11-03, 03:21 PM
So, I just found a Gestalt arena game at an absurd power level.

Double Prestige Class progression is allowed and "theurge" progression is also allowed.

Level Adjustments and Racial Hit Dice count as one side of gestalt. (Example, I could be an Aasimar/Paladin at level 1.)

Lots of leeway, I feel like it'll be easier for me to tell you if something is allowed rather than for me to list everything that is allowed.

I'll list whether or not something is allowed here and in a posted response to whoever asked it in the thread. This is an attempt to keep new posters up to speed but keep others from having to watch the first post for changes.

List inside the box:
No infinite loops.
No prestige versions of base classes (Prestige Bard, Paladin, or Ranger) From UA.

Random Creation info:
36 point buy, each stat must be bought up to 10. Templates HDs and level adjustments work just like racial HDs and level adjustment (are one side of gestalt), and are applied as if the character was concieved ("started play") with them. (In other words, I couldn't take a template that required me to be good, then later become evil and get another one that requires me to be evil.) All racial and template abilities are gained at the last level of their hit dice/LA, if there is a WIZARDS progression for that race or template, that may be used instead. One extra bonus feat at levels 1 and 21. High intelligence scores provide retroactive skill points during creation. 2.1 million GP. 12,500 XP for researching epic level spells, crafting magic items, XP costs for spells, etc. Leftover XP turns into 5gp each.

DM is willing to help give prestige classes epic progressions I assume he would do the same for base classes.

Any Wizards sourcebook should be allowed.

So, how broken can I be?

Is a Theurge build actually sounding good this way?

Defiant
2009-11-03, 03:31 PM
Omnicaster!!!

Mooch
2009-11-03, 03:38 PM
well to focus on SAD i would do a wizard/psion|| factorum or you could go druid||ninja

if possible I would try to grab an epic template or two (demilich(SRD) gives you some crazy bonus as a caster just beware turning, you can grab deathknight to offset that) also vecna-blooded(MM5) is nice

edit: if you go the wizard/psion route check out the mind mage and offset the lost caster/manifester levels on the other side and use cerebremancer for the rest, also you could use warblade for some extra hp among other things

or as a charisma caster you could pull something along the lines of ghost/hexblade||sorc/incantrix with venerable dragonwrought kobold loredrake

or I beleive an archivist/dwemorkeeper||wizard/incantrix gets both metamagic reductions on all spells and to finish it out you could run a theuge/facotorum or warblade

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 03:48 PM
Options 1: Bitey

Race: Blink Dog

Side 1: Something else you like X/Sword Sage 1/Tel-Flammar Shadowlord 4

Feat Investment: 6 (Tel-Flammar Shadowlord reqs, Adaptive Style, and Learning White Raven Tactics.)

Side 2: Blink Dog 4 (HD)/Blink Dog LA 2/ Whatever you want X

What you do: Swift Action:
1.) Swift Action: White Raven Tactics (Your turn is now next)
2.) Full Round Action: Recover White Raven Tactics
3.) Free Action: Teleport somewhere near the enemy. You now get a full attack.
4.) Take your next turn and repeat this process in an infinite loop.

Option 2: The Regenerator

Race: Ghost (From Ghostwalk) Half Green Dragon War-Troll

Side 1: Beguiler X (AFB and don't know how much RS needs)-> Rainbow Servant 10 -> Prestige Paladin of the Arcane Order 4 (Take Alternate Source Spell so that you can call yourself a divine caster)

Side 2: Racial/Template Everything. You have regen against all forms of damage, find a way to gain immunity to non-combat damage now. I will check this out when I get back to my books.

What you do: Spontaneously cast all spells that exist

Notes: You are immune to damage. Find a way to get immunity to ability drain (I will look into this later), as well as immunity to magic or at least pump your saving throws and your are golden. This build is still rough at best. I will work out boosting your dcs via Taint later. Spelldancer levels will be good for Persistent spells but honestly Spelldancer qualification is heavy stuff.

Zovc
2009-11-03, 03:54 PM
Sorry, no infinite loops, and the prestige versions of base classes are also banned.

Fluffles
2009-11-03, 03:55 PM
Druid 25//Cleric 25

Or Wizard 25//Psion 25

or Druid 25// Swordsage 15/Mot9 10

or Psionic Warrior 8/Warblade 15//Psion 25

OMG PONIES
2009-11-03, 03:58 PM
Since I'm pretty sure I know the arena you're referring to, please scrap the 2 builds above* (which I'm pretty sure will get banned right away).

Honestly, your best bet is going to be ...

1. An extreme focus on offense with ways to counter common defenses (invisibility, miss change, flight) along with tons of attacks and extra damage sources or...
2. An extreme focus on defense with ways to counter situations as they arise (Divine Defiance, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Craft Contingent Spell, etc.) or...
3. A focus on breaking the action economy (though I think Synchronicity is banned in this arena) by using monkey business (who DOESN'T love temporal acceleration, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and/or shapechanging into a chronotryn?).

However, you'll have to do it without being entirely cheesy (no Celerity + Mark of the Dauntless, for instance) since they're pretty vigilant about stopping anything that makes the game less fun for others.

*EDIT: That was in reference to the blink dog (especially since I think the DMs ruled that you can't use WRT on yourself) or the Regenerator (which doesn't grant all spells, but a whole fat load of them, and is still plenty killable).

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 04:04 PM
Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 1/Warpriest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ordained Champion 4//Duskblade 19/Abjurant Champion 5


Full Divine casting on one side, Full BAB and Arcane Channeling on the other, with a touch of Martial Adept for good measure.

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 04:05 PM
Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Windicator//Wizard

Cast "Time Stop"

Use each round's swift action and an extra one from the Windicator to cast Wraistrike+True Strike. Use full power attack with a two-handed weapon+a White Raven maneuver to charge in the first round, then make full attack with wraithstrike and true strike each round after. Finally, use White Raven Tactics to do it once more.

Dixieboy
2009-11-03, 04:07 PM
Wizard/Factotum.

...
what? :smallredface:

Mooch
2009-11-03, 04:10 PM
Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Windicator//Wizard

Cast "Time Stop"

Use each round's swift action and an extra one from the Windicator to cast Wraistrike+True Strike. Use full power attack with a two-handed weapon+a White Raven maneuver to charge in the first round, then make full attack with wraithstrike and true strike each round after. Finally, use White Raven Tactics to do it once more.

you cannot attack creatures while in time stop

RandomNPC
2009-11-03, 04:10 PM
wiz10/cleric10 followed by Mystic Thurge10/Monk10

20 levels of both caster levels, an unarmored fighting class with good saves, and five more levels, i'd go monk5/rogue5 for skills and more monkishness.

but thats just with the core books.

Zovc
2009-11-03, 04:19 PM
Any good LA/HD races? What are some good templates? Are they worth it?

Is Spellstitched worth it as an undead? (1k gp and 500xp per point of wisdom) What about Swarm-Shifter (It doesn't seem to have any ECL costs according to CrystalKeep)?

I like the sound of a Factotum, using Cunning Surge a lot, and that sounds nice with a Wizard of Psion. Are epic psionics as powerful as epic spells? Any ways to make that Gestalt better?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 04:20 PM
Spell resistance is a huge problem in epic, so make sure you have at least 11 levels of factotum.

Consider an ascended elf LA+4/factotum 11/chameleon 10 // psion 3/wizard 1/cerebremancer 10 (with early-entry shenanigans)/ultimate magus 6 (if psionics is allowed as the 'spontaneous' side)/cerebremancer 5: Int to everything, 25 levels of sorcerer casting, near-full manifesting, near-full wizard casting, and lots and lots and lots of potential action economy abuse.

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 04:21 PM
Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 1/Warpriest 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ordained Champion 4//Duskblade 19/Abjurant Champion 5


Full Divine casting on one side, Full BAB and Arcane Channeling on the other, with a touch of Martial Adept for good measure.

You're missing a level on the right. Duskblade 20/AbJ5

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:22 PM
Since it's arena, I'd be tempted to put illithid + 10 levels of illithid savant on one side of the build.

Then I'd put wizard 3/incanta10/cerebremancer10/something else 2 on the other side.

Now you get to eat brains and gain powers of whatever you kill, manifesting as a 21 telepath, and casting as a wizard 25.

OMG PONIES
2009-11-03, 04:23 PM
Is Spellstitched worth it as an undead? (1k gp and 500xp per point of wisdom) What about Swarm-Shifter (It doesn't seem to have any ECL costs according to CrystalKeep)?

I'm pretty sure Spellstitched has been banned, and I think Swarm-Shifter has LA: - (though I'm AFB), which usually means it's unplayable for PCs as far as I know.

Mooch
2009-11-03, 04:24 PM
the mind mage PRC helps with the SR issue with the twinwells ability, also if going a charisma caster to fight the SR grab a level of marshel and add your charisma score to beat SR

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 04:28 PM
Ethergaunt 20/archmage 5 // factotum 11/ur-priest 1 2/bard 1/sublime chord 1/mystic theurge 11 10.

25th level wizard casting, Int to EVERYTHING (and the ability to ignore SR at will, and extra standard actions as well), and full-9s on both divine and spontaneous arcane casting.

Take that feat that alters your casting stat to Int (twice!) to make MAD puppy SAD (http://scienceblogs.com/ethicsandscience/upload/2006/09/sad_puppy.jpg).

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 04:30 PM
Psion//Wilder/Metamind

Zovc
2009-11-03, 04:32 PM
Take that feat that alters your casting stat to Int (twice!) to make MAD puppy SAD.

That looks deliciously cheesy, where can I find those feats? What about Ethergaunt, where is that from?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 04:33 PM
Psion//Wilder/Metamind

EEEEE! IT'S ASTRALFIRE!

Consider Psion // wilder 5/anarchic initiate 10/metamind 10, and a race that's immune to dazing.


That looks deliciously cheesy, where can I find those feats? What about Ethergaunt, where is that from?

Ethergaunt's from Fiend Folio, and I think the feat that alters your casting stat is from PHB2. I think.

[edit] I looked, and couldn't find it. Maybe in one of the Completes? Maybe? Anyone?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 04:35 PM
Double-post.

avr
2009-11-03, 04:39 PM
There's a prestige class in Races of Eberron (Atavist) whose capstone lets you expend your psionic focus to get a standard action. It's normally a monk prestige class, so this isn't such a big deal as it'd be in a gestalt game.

There are a few ways to store or rapidly regain your psionic focus. Psicrystals, narrow mind, Instant Clarity from the ToB - by level 25 you should be able to get them all.

Something like Kalashtar (the PrC is race specific) Psion 15 / Cerebremancer 10 // Monk 5 / Wizard 5 / Atavist 10 / Warblade 5 works. If favoured class isn't an issue you might trade in some monk levels for more wizard, warblade or a PrC advancing one of those.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 05:02 PM
[edit] I looked, and couldn't find it. Maybe in one of the Completes? Maybe? Anyone?

The best version is in Bastards & Bloodlines.

As long as we're using totally broken 3rd party stuff, take that feat that lets you count as a beholder and go beholder mage. Of the metamagic feat from Kingdoms of Kalamor that makes it so targets of your spells auto-fail their saves.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 05:04 PM
Actually, you might want to trade one level of mystic theurge for ur-priest, so you can get the 2nd level divine spells as a prereq for MT.

Oops.

But still......

EEEEE! IT'S ASTRALFIRE!

(Also, SAD PUPPY (http://scienceblogs.com/ethicsandscience/upload/2006/09/sad_puppy.jpg).)

Douglas
2009-11-03, 05:08 PM
So, I just found a Gestalt arena game at an absurd power level.
I can almost guarantee you it's not as absurd as this one (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=7698&date=1257174098) (my character there is Taurnil).

Anyway, what limits are there on epic spell design, particularly mitigation and available time for casting?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 05:12 PM
I can almost guarantee you it's not as absurd as this one (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=7698&date=1257174098) (my character there is Taurnil).

Anyway, what limits are there on epic spell design, particularly mitigation and available time for casting?

If it were me, I'd ignore epic spells altogether and start whooping up on legendary abominations with 5th-9th level spells, just to show everyone how borked 3.5 spellcasting really is.

Don't forget the metamagic reducers! In fact, that's where I'd head next. Things like incantatrix and such.

tonberrian
2009-11-03, 05:14 PM
Swiftblade.

Swiftblade is one of the few ways to get a decent miss chance on yourself that's basically impenetrable. Neither True Seeing nor Blindsight nor any other detection method penetrates it, simply because you're moving very fast. You even get 50% immunity to targetted spells, and it can't be dispelled. It even lets you have a pseudo-timestop without interference (Spell Stowaway (Timestop) is going to be common and effective, consider it). Extra actions don't hurt, either.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 05:22 PM
Saw Illithid Savant come up earlier which had not occurred to me for some reason. If you took Illlithid Savant would you be allowed to choose what abilities you had or would you have to gain them during the fight?

Monster classes said, Beholder Mage combod with Planar Shepard would also be quite godly. Beholder Mage alone would be quite godly. A dip of Mindbender so that you can take Mindsight will also be good for your sensory ability.

Emperor Tippy
2009-11-03, 05:23 PM
How broken are you allowed to go? Because their are some very nasty things that you can do.

illithid savant is literally the most powerful class in the game, bar none. It can give Pun-Pun a run for his money. And with all LA and RHD on one side, you don't even have to use any shenanigans to get it.

Zovc
2009-11-03, 05:25 PM
Anyway, what limits are there on epic spell design, particularly mitigation and available time for casting?


Epic Spells: Anything from the epic level handbook regarding epic spells is fair game, but I'll state some things now:

-- Since Leadership and its derivatives only grant cohorts, you cannot use followers to lower the DC. Your cohort can contribute a spell slot, however.

-- Ad hoc effects will be closely examined and may have a higher DC modification than the player who submits the spell might originally enter. For the sake of balance, I may also have to change my mind if a spell proves too good. If this is the case, the character will receive a refund for any resources put into the spell.

-- Existing spells can be enhanced later, and the character doing so will only have to pay the difference between the original spell DC and the augmented spell DC. (If a spell DC changes by less than 10, the character will pay a minimum of 90,000 GP and 3,600 xp)**. A rod of excellent magic can be used with each upgrade step, but has no bearing on XP costs for previous or future augmentation.
** Epic spells can have DC's lower than 10 when first created, and pay only the standard XP and gold cost.

-- Only one rod of excellent magic can be used with each casting of an epic spell to reduce the xp cost.

-- Once an epic spell has been cast in the arena, it is treated as being known for the purpose of other characters developing epic spells that suppress it. A ward against a specific epic spell causes a CL check against a DC of 6 + CL of the spell. Epic spells cast before the match are assumed to have been cast in seclusion and can only be identified by an opponent with greater arcane sight active. After that, the character is able to develop epic spells that ward against that effect.

-- Seeds from other sources will be considered, but I will need to take a look at them. If you are considering using a seed from another source, please submit the seed name and the source so I can review it.

As far as time 'between matches' is concerned, there is no limit. With the exception of tournaments, I have unlimited "in-game time" to do what I need to. In between tournament rounds there are only two hours.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 05:29 PM
You should also spend some LA on becoming Symbiotic with a Swarm. Being a Swarm is good.

Fluffles
2009-11-03, 05:36 PM
By the way, can I have a link? I am interested in joining this arena :smallamused:

Zovc
2009-11-03, 05:41 PM
I was trying to be selfish, but here (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=38169&date=1257284295)'s a link to the arena, it's hosted on rpol.net (http://rpol.net/).

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 05:47 PM
How broken are you allowed to go? Because their are some very nasty things that you can do.

illithid savant is literally the most powerful class in the game, bar none. It can give Pun-Pun a run for his money. And with all LA and RHD on one side, you don't even have to use any shenanigans to get it.

Would Illithid Savant//Wizard15/Swiftblade10 be made of pure win?

Yukitsu
2009-11-03, 05:50 PM
Illithid savant//pun pun?

Or possibly omnificier/illithid savant//pun pun?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 05:50 PM
Is there any way to count as both illithid (for illithid savant) and a beholder (for beholder mage)?

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 05:56 PM
Would Illithid Savant//Wizard15/Swiftblade10 be made of pure win?

I would stick with all casting, then just eat a Swiftblade's brains.
:smallamused:

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 05:56 PM
Is there any way to count as both illithid (for illithid savant) and a beholder (for beholder mage)?

Maybe using the "Acquire Special Quality" ability.


I would stick with all casting, then just eat a Swiftblade's brains.
:smallamused:

Brilliant!

Matamane
2009-11-03, 08:34 PM
Druid|Sorcerer Lv. 5
Mystic Theurge|Arcane Heirophant Lv. 10
Lion of Talised|Wildshaper Lv. 5
Lion of Talised|Archmage Lv. 5

Anyone who want's to try, I will do an arena match with that sometime.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 08:41 PM
On the less absurd side of things (compared to some things) you could be a factotum Y (Y is where you get to take more standard actions)/RHD/LA/Templates/Something quick (malconvoker)//Caster 25, and take every feat as Font of Inspiration (well, one feat for Epic Spellcasting)

Why yes, I do believe I just said I cast disjunction ten times, then followed with six scrolls of Intensified Timestop, and then Forcecaged your sorry ass while casting Cloudkill and a few summons in the area.

Also, epic spellcasting, just say you mitigated everything with time. While it would be broken, you can get some pretty absurd bonuses with just casting time, and that's assuming you don't use your time to permanently create creatures with epic spell slots (it's really cheap to do) to mitigate more.

I'm also assuming Tippy style trapmaking is banned, correct? If not, then you get a wagon or twenty with, say, Hold Person traps that reset as a free action, and are command word based.

EDIT: Also, I'm doubting his grasp on the rules already... he mentions a custom item being a +1 ML Ioun Stone, when that already works for Psions as is, with the Psionic magic transparency. Blech. Could just be an oversight.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:43 PM
I would stick with all casting, then just eat a Swiftblade's brains.
:smallamused:

On this measure, what's to stop an illithid savant with access to gate from getting access to...well...everything?!

And on that note, don't forget the barghest's feed ability.

Matamane
2009-11-03, 08:44 PM
Factotum in Gestalt is pointless because you can fill out multiple roles anyway. It is effectively dead levels.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 08:47 PM
Factotum in Gestalt is pointless because you can fill out multiple roles anyway. It is effectively dead levels.

Extra. Actions.

With Font of Inspiration taken five times at level one (flaw, flaw, human, game bonus, level), and once every level possible after that, you have 115 Inspiration points (a mere 101 if you take Epic Spellcasting for preset buffs).

That's 33 extra standard actions, and Int to just about everything if you don't burn all your standard actions on round one.

Granted, extra actions are relatively cheap in the arena, because you can just abuse Intensified Scrolls of Timestop for more buff rounds and to kill your opponents, but that's still a pretty good amount.

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 08:47 PM
Factotum in Gestalt is pointless because you can fill out multiple roles anyway. It is effectively dead levels.

The point is getting the extra standard actions.

Chrono22
2009-11-03, 08:49 PM
Huh. A cleric/druid with vow of poverty, peace, nonviolence, etc. That should do it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:50 PM
Factotum in Gestalt is pointless because you can fill out multiple roles anyway. It is effectively dead levels.

Not for an Int-based character. Note that NONE of the factotum's abilities other than Arcane Dilettante requires an action of any kind. Free action Int-to-everything, AND standard actions as free actions.

Those standard actions are what REALLY work for the other (active) side of the gestalt. Especially spellcasters. Not to mention the "ignore SR and DR for a round" ability.

It's widely considered one of THE best classes to gestalt with, bar none.

Matamane
2009-11-03, 08:50 PM
I don't find that too important at that high a level. The later you go on in levels, the better the full attack option becomes, especially once you have quickened spells at your disposal.

The Factotum has one good ability in my book, and that requires too heavy a dip into the class for it to be worthwhile in a gestalt campaign.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 08:51 PM
The point is getting the extra standard actions.

I'm a pirate ninja. :P

Also, I'm sure you could get more general use feats; especially if you take, say, a bunch of levels of fighter (or, say, fighter 2/feat rogue 2/wizard ACF that gets fighter feats two) and Chaos Shuffle them away. That's an extra 105 inspiration points right there (a few less if you take epic spellcasting), which means that you've now got over 70 extra actions every encounter. Time Stop has nothing on you.

Of course, if chaos shuffle is banned, it's still pretty good.


I don't find that too important at that high level. The later you go on in levels, the better the full attack option becomes, especially once you have the quickened spell option at your disposal.

I'm going to be blunt: full attacks will be terrible in a gestalt, epic game, because, well, wizards never get full attacked. With my build, just taking three classes as dips that get fighter bonus feats, and in fact, being able to take ANY class that gets a bonus feat or a racial feat at first level, gives you massive amounts of extra standard actions with increasing returns each time.

Once you use all your feat slots naturally, every Chaos Shuffle'd feat is five extra standard actions or more per encounter. It's absurd how many you can get in a no holds barred gestalt game (if Chaos Shuffle is allowed.)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:53 PM
I don't find that too important at that high level. The later you go on in levels, the better the full attack option becomes, especially once you have the quickened spell option at your disposal.

Action economy = power. ONE of the reasons (by no means the only one) that casters are so much better than everyone else is because they break action economy all to hell, and they make those actions count.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 08:55 PM
Action economy = power. ONE of the reasons (by no means the only one) that casters are so much better than everyone else is because they break action economy all to hell, and they make those actions count.

And my build makes Time Stop look, quite frankly, like casters in general make the monk look: useless.

70 extra actions is almost much as you get with 9 intensified timestops; and you can combine them if you really need that many buff rounds. I haven't even begun to get into using races with a lot of bonus feats, or taking obscure things that grant bonus feats at first level; I'm just talking pure natural feats and a few chaos shuffled fighter feats.

Matamane
2009-11-03, 08:57 PM
I don't deny that it is an effective method, but because it requires a second int build for it to work to it's full potential, I put it on a lower tier than most would.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 08:59 PM
Side 1:

Divine Minion 1/Wizard 7/Ardent 2/Cerbemancer 4/Subverted Psion 1/Tainted Scholar 10/

Side 2:

Anything/Planar Sheperd (Dal Quor) 10 [Gained via Divine Minion for Wildshape and Alternate Source Spell Metamagic to count wizard as a divine caster.]

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 09:01 PM
I don't deny that it is an effective method, but because it requires a second int build for it to work to it's full potential, I put it on a lower tier than most would.

...Wizard?

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:02 PM
Side 1:

Divine Minion 1/Wizard 7/Ardent 2/Cerbemancer 4/Subverted Psion 1/Tainted Scholar 10/

Side 2:

Anything/Planar Sheperd (Dal Quor) 10 [Gained via Divine Minion for Wildshape and Alternate Source Spell Metamagic to count wizard as a divine caster.]

Dal Quor is the one that gets you 10 rounds per round of other people, right? That's... almost capable of outdoing the idea of "massive Font of Inspiration" spam; more than such if the fight lasts long enough.


I don't deny that it is an effective method, but because it requires a second int build for it to work to it's full potential, I put it on a lower tier than most would.

It's 36 PB with everything at 10 (meaning it's effectively 26 PB with all stats starting at ten, which is actually low for such a high powered arena). It's not hard to get two casting stats.

Plus, this is gestalt. EVERY good build requires synergy. All of them. Mine actually doesn't need it as much as others, because while you can get int to everything, the extra standard actions are the key; if you can't kill somebody with 70 free action standard actions, you are doing something wrong. Int isn't even required for that point.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 09:04 PM
I don't deny that it is an effective method, but because it requires a second int build for it to work to it's full potential, I put it on a lower tier than most would.

Well, it's not quite as powerful as the illithid savant build, or a beholder mage build, but those are getting up into Tier 0 levels of play.

Generally, the way to get the most oomph out of a gestalt build is to have one "active" side, which uses up your character's actions (such as wizard, psion, druid, cleric, or one of the ToB classes) and one "passive" side (such as monk, rogue, or factotum), which subtly (or not so subtly) enhances your "active" side. Reason being, is that you only have so many actions in a round, and the more power those actions have, the more powerful you are.

Factotum is absolutely awesome at this, especially for any classes that can afford a really high Int. Funny thing is that many characters that are MAD (multiple-attribute dependent) become less-so with factotum gestalted in, because the Int can enhance or outright replace many of those other ability scores.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:06 PM
I'm going to enter my Factotum//Wizard (or Psion, I dunno).

Probably would get banned, like, immediately, though.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 09:09 PM
I'm going to enter my Factotum//Wizard (or Psion, I dunno).

Probably would get banned, like, immediately, though.

Try a The Big Guy is With Me build. Psion//factotum with a psicrystal that buffs his pet rock to the Nine Hells and back.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 09:13 PM
Dal Quor is the one that gets you 10 rounds per round of other people, right? That's... almost capable of outdoing the idea of "massive Font of Inspiration" spam; more than such if the fight lasts long enough.



It's 36 PB with everything at 10 (meaning it's effectively 26 PB with all stats starting at ten, which is actually low for such a high powered arena). It's not hard to get two casting stats.

Plus, this is gestalt. EVERY good build requires synergy. All of them. Mine actually doesn't need it as much as others, because while you can get int to everything, the extra standard actions are the key; if you can't kill somebody with 70 free action standard actions, you are doing something wrong. Int isn't even required for that point.

The advantage to my build is that the save DCs are based on taint which cannot go over into deadly territories due to Suberted Psion so anything that can fail a save likely will.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:19 PM
The advantage to my build is that the save DCs are based on taint which cannot go over into deadly territories due to Suberted Psion so anything that can fail a save likely will.

I could still do that, though; I have a very straightforward build at this point. Making it convoluted will be a bit of a problem, but hell, I really only need bonus feats to make this work; who cares if they can pass all my saves if I can hit them with 100 save or dies on round one?

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 09:28 PM
I could still do that, though; I have a very straightforward build at this point. Making it convoluted will be a bit of a problem, but hell, I really only need bonus feats to make this work; who cares if they can pass all my saves if I can hit them with 100 save or dies on round one?

How many feats are you spending on Font of Inspiration to get all of that?

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:31 PM
To get 100 SoDs: 24 feats. However, that's if the Chaos Shuffle is allowed, and since I have a ton of levels after factotum I can use to dip for feats, it isn't that bad. If not, I can get a "mere" 35 extra standard actions."

FMArthur
2009-11-03, 09:36 PM
Where are you getting the Int bonus for the escalating requirements of all those Fonts of Inspiration?

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:47 PM
Where are you getting the Int bonus for the escalating requirements of all those Fonts of Inspiration?

Crap, I forgot about that entirely. Blech, there goes the chaos shuffle.. with an 18 int and venerable Age, I can get an Int bonus of +14 +templates and races, which is, while good, not enough for Chaos Shuffling more. That's still enough for all the feat slots I have without the chaos shuffle, though, which is still pretty nice. I'm sure I could get a higher int bonus, but it's a bit tricky, though I suppose an inherited template could be added. Again, if I don't get to Chaos Shuffle, I can get enough for all my feat slots.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 09:47 PM
Even with a high INT race it's going to get expensive on character levels to pump INT that high.

Milskidasith
2009-11-03, 09:49 PM
Even with a high INT race it's going to get very expensive on character levels to pump INT that high.

For a +24? Yes, For a +14? It's standard; 18 base +6 from levelups, +6 from an item (which can qualify for PrCs and feats, though I lose the benefit if it's disjoined or similar), +3 from venerable age, +5 inherent. That gives me a 38, or a +14. With a +int race with LA, I can get a couple more uses of the feat, but again, that's going into the point where I'm using the chaos shuffle to get all the feats required.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-03, 10:13 PM
For a +24? Yes, For a +14? It's standard; 18 base +6 from levelups, +6 from an item (which can qualify for PrCs and feats, though I lose the benefit if it's disjoined or similar), +3 from venerable age, +5 inherent. That gives me a 38, or a +14. With a +int race with LA, I can get a couple more uses of the feat, but again, that's going into the point where I'm using the chaos shuffle to get all the feats required.

True.

Also, amended build slightly:

Side 1:

Divine Minion 1/Wizard 7/Ardent 2/Cerbemancer 4/Subverted Psion 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Spelldancer 1

Side 2:

Anything X/Wyrm Wizard 2/Planar Sheperd (Dal Quor) 10 [Gained via Divine Minion for Wildshape and Alternate Source Spell Metamagic to count wizard as a divine caster.]/Impure Prince 1

Notes:

-Tainted Spellcasting: This is good. Period. Maximum taint with no chance of going over thanks to Subverted Psion makes it even better.

-Spell Dancer: This is your key to Persisting any buff you wish. Thanks to your bonus spells from Tainted spell casting this means you will have buffs and offensive spells aplenty.

-Dal Quor: 10 Rounds of Action to your enemies turn

-Alternate Sources Spell [Feat]: This will let you qualify as a Divine Caster

-Impure Prince: Gets you a lot of hinjinks for cheap Symbionts. With Epic WBL this means easily 1k hp in the event you actually take damage. The benefit of this is that Symbionts as creatures don't lose their benefit if you are dispelled.

-Symbiont Mastery [Feat]: Extra HP with each Symbiont. Note, being evil negates needing to constantly make saving throws.

-Summon Natures Ally is being gained through Wyrm Wizard.

-Your alignment will be evil, this allows you to ignore constantly rolling saving throws from all of your Symbionts.

Myrmex
2009-11-04, 02:32 AM
On this measure, what's to stop an illithid savant with access to gate from getting access to...well...everything?!

Not much.
I recommend eating the brain of a Phane (ELH).

HandofCrom
2009-11-04, 02:43 AM
Here's a rough outline of a potential build:

Side 1:
wizard 15 / LM style Pale Master 10

- gives you the multiple pale master immunities without becoming undead

Side 2:
wartroll with void mind template and incorporeal template from Savage Species (plus 2 more levels to play with)

- regeneration with no vulnerable elements
- void mind immunities combined with pale master immunities stop most effects, including nonlethal damage
- incorporeality protects you from disintegrate (which ignores all regeneration)

Basically, you still have the powerful casting from the wizard to rely on, and are indestructible. The only ways to harm this thing that I can think of are hit point overload from positive energy, a sphere of annihilation, and aging. Grab a ghost-touch incorporeal weapon and you can cherry tap anything you want to death (weapon is at risk of sundering).
The wizard side can be boosted by putting 10 of those wizard levels into nasty prestige classes, like Incantrix or IotSFV for pure power, or argent defender or jade phoenix to be more of a zerth.

Myrmex
2009-11-04, 02:50 AM
If you aren't going to abuse Illithid Savant, I would go for double threat + factotum. Go with gray elf as race, for int bonus & 5 feats to chaos shuffle. The -2 con doesn't matter at level 25.

Then I'd only take 11 levels of factotum, and on the other side have cerebremancer. So level 1 is psion//wizard, level 2 is factotum1/wizard1//psion2, level 3 fact2/wiz1//psion 3, and at level 4 cerebremancer starts. After 10 levels of that, get 9 levels of legacy champion. This leaves 2 levels on one side and 13 on the other. Put two levels of tainted scholar on the cerebremancer side to bring your wiz casting up to 21 and that level up to 25. On the other side put a level of subverted psion and 10 levels of incantatrix.

You've got oodles of feats, total domination of the action economy, and casting as a 25 wizard and 25 psion (if you take practiced caster and manifester, respectively). You're also left over with a few levels. Take some fighter to get even more feats! Do whatever you want!

Oh, and your save or dies are incredibly deadly.

Take the necropolitan template so you can ignore your massive taint score.


On this measure, what's to stop an illithid savant with access to gate from getting access to...well...everything?!

Not much.
I recommend eating the brain of a Phane (ELH).