1st/2nd Ed. Help

[HMS Invincible]

I'm playing in a homebrewed version of 1st edition and I'm kinda scared to do anything cuz I'll die. I have no idea what's homebrewed and what's not, but everything hurts, and wounds don't heal that fast.

During initiative count, your actions actually consume your initiative number. e.g Casting a spell can be done right away, but moving 15 ft and then casting can cause you to go after someone else.
Any damage that takes you below 0 requires an extra healing spell/potion to repair before you can fight again. Say you go to -5 from 4 hitpoints. I need a cure spell to heal me up to 4 hitpoints, and then 5 more cure spells before I can fight again. Resting 8 hours heals 1 wound or 1 hp, and any interruptions requires anohter 8 hour rest. I have no skill points and stats don't give bonuses at even 12, 14, 16, etc.



For example, I casted sleep on a lone orc, and I was going to go coup de grace him next turn. My party member went next and decided to do it for me. He moved 20 ft, and walked into someone else's initiative order and promptly died. I've been sticking with range combat, but Wizards are terrible at throwing daggers and I only have 3 sleep spells. (God damn, who's bright idea was it to makde thrown weapons use strength stat?!)

I'm a Human Wizard lvl 1 with 4 hp and 3 spells(sleepx3). I'm proficient with a dagger and that's it. How am I suppose to deal with combat/roleplaying dangerous situations? I'm playing as conservative as possible, but I'd like some advice.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yep, sounds like 1E :smallbiggrin:

You're definitely thinking like a 3E Player. A wizard "coup de gracing" (:smallconfused:) an Orc? And casting Sleep on a single Orc? What, are you made of spell-slots or something?

OK, here's a quick guide.

How to survive as a 1E Wizard (By Oracle_Hunter)

(1) Befriend the party meatshield
You are a scrawny wizard. He is a big meaty fighter. Make sure he's always in front of you, and that you are farther away from monsters than he is.

In return, when you reach 5th level, you'll be able to provide close fire support for him.

Corollary: Befriend the Cleric. You'll be seeing a lot of him :smalltongue:

(2) Don't fight
If you can avoid a battle, do. Have the Thief scout out ahead of the party so that you can avoid patrols. Talk down anyone who will listen, and run from anyone who won't.

If you're going to have to fight, make sure you maximize your advantages. Get surprise, fight behind a barricade - whatever you can do to make sure that battles end quickly and in your favor.

[Eldariel]

Yep, sounds like 1E :smallbiggrin:

You're definitely thinking like a 3E Player. A wizard "coup de gracing" (:smallconfused:) an Orc? And casting Sleep on a single Orc? What, are you made of spell-slots or something?

OK, here's a quick guide.

How to survive as a 1E Wizard (By Oracle_Hunter)

(1) Befriend the party meatshield
You are a scrawny wizard. He is a big meaty fighter. Make sure he's always in front of you, and that you are farther away from monsters than he is.

In return, when you reach 5th level, you'll be able to provide close fire support for him.

Corollary: Befriend the Cleric. You'll be seeing a lot of him :smalltongue:

(2) Don't fight
If you can avoid a battle, do. Have the Thief scout out ahead of the party so that you can avoid patrols. Talk down anyone who will listen, and run from anyone who won't.

If you're going to have to fight, make sure you maximize your advantages. Get surprise, fight behind a barricade - whatever you can do to make sure that battles end quickly and in your favor.

In other words, the exact same stuff you should do in 3.5e; use sense, model common.

[t_catt11]

Heh... we need one of those "popcorn eating" smileys.

[Oracle_Hunter]

In other words, the exact same stuff you should do in 3.5e; use sense, model common.
Ha!

A wizard asking anyone for help? Avoiding combat? Chummer, what 3E games are you playing?

In 3E it would have been perfectly reasonable for anyone (everyone?) to walk up to a single-target Sleep and Coup De Grace away. In 1E this is insanity because:

(1) There is no Coup De Grace action
(2) You have 1 spell per day (well, in the homebrew, 3) and pretty much nothing else. Wasting a precious spell on a single orc is silly
(3) Healing is hard. There are no convenient Wands of CLW or Clerics with nothing better to do than cast healing on you all day.
(4) You can't hit anything. There are no handfuls of +1's to sprinkle over every attack roll - at 1st level, pretty much everyone needs to roll a 15 or better to hit someone with medium armor. At best, your Fighter with 16+ STR may only need a 12.

TSR D&D runs on a completely different logic than WotC D&D - anyone can tell you that.

[LibraryOgre]

During initiative count, your actions actually consume your initiative number. e.g Casting a spell can be done right away, but moving 15 ft and then casting can cause you to go after someone else.
Any damage that takes you below 0 requires an extra healing spell/potion to repair before you can fight again. Say you go to -5 from 4 hitpoints. I need a cure spell to heal me up to 4 hitpoints, and then 5 more cure spells before I can fight again. Resting 8 hours heals 1 wound or 1 hp, and any interruptions requires anohter 8 hour rest. I have no skill points and stats don't give bonuses at even 12, 14, 16, etc.

This sounds about right; healing from negatives to positives is a little nicer than I recall for 1e, in fact, where it could frequently require weeks. A few things.

1) 1e doesn't use skill points. If you want to do something, you say "I want to do this" and the DM comes up with a mechanism for it. Sometimes, you have to explain WHY you are able to do this... "Why are you arguing that your fighter should have a chance of tracking this guy?" "Well, before he started adventuring, he was a hunter. I've got the WP for long bow, and so I'm used to tracking." "Ok, you can give it a shot... half what a 1st level ranger could do." The only skills your character has are class abilities, languages, and weapon proficiencies.
2) Most stats start accumulating bonuses around 15; Strength starts at 16, Intelligence and Charisma are just a continuum of results (i.e. a 16 intelligence is better than a 15, but not in any hugely outstanding way). Wisdom starts getting bonuses at 13 if you're a cleric (bonus spells) or 14 (if you're not). Dex and Constitution both start at 15, though.



For example, I casted sleep on a lone orc, and I was going to go coup de grace him next turn. My party member went next and decided to do it for me. He moved 20 ft, and walked into someone else's initiative order and promptly died. I've been sticking with range combat, but Wizards are terrible at throwing daggers and I only have 3 sleep spells. (God damn, who's bright idea was it to makde thrown weapons use strength stat?!)

Most thrown weapons don't use Strength... unless you have a strength penalty. The use Dex for accuracy, but if you have a strength penalty, then you're going to be throwing things slower, and so they're going to be easier to block.

How did the guy die for walking into someone else's initiative order? Did someone then get to go, and attacked him?

For spells, sleep is a good choice. It's unlikely that it will only affect one person at time, though, unless you're fighting things with a lot of HD... it hits 2d4 HD, which would affect 2 orcs, in most cases. You might also want to look into Shield.



I'm a Human Wizard lvl 1 with 4 hp and 3 spells(sleepx3). I'm proficient with a dagger and that's it. How am I suppose to deal with combat/roleplaying dangerous situations? I'm playing as conservative as possible, but I'd like some advice.

The main point of adventuring isn't to kill as many monsters as possible. If you want to get XP, you get money... since every GP is worth 1 XP, it's far more effective than trying to fight your way to higher levels. See what you can do to sneak through things, or put everyone to sleep (you might be able to manage 8 orcs with 1 sleep spell), then kill things.

Roleplaying is handled pretty much like it always is. You say what you're doing, and say what you're saying. Instead of rolling a diplomacy skill, your DM might base it on how good your argument is, or might go with a reaction check... which gets easier if you have a higher charisma.

[Eldariel]

In 3E it would have been perfectly reasonable for anyone (everyone?) to walk up to a single-target Sleep and Coup De Grace away.

I don't know about you, but if I'm a low-level Wizard, I do appreciate the man willing to protect me with his body while I browse through my spellbook and try to figure out which spell I should insta-gib this encounter with :smallbiggrin:


TSR D&D runs on a completely different logic than WotC D&D - anyone can tell you that.

That does not diminish the value of tactics, care, avoiding combat or commonly modelled sense one bit!

[Oracle_Hunter]

That does not diminish the value of tactics, care, avoiding combat or commonly modelled sense one bit!
Well yes, but "common" sense requires you to be familiar with the assumptions of a given reality.

As I said - it is "common" sense in a 3E game to set someone up for a Coup De Grace and then gut them like a fish. This is a normal (and, indeed, optimal) battle tactic for low levels. In a 1E game, this is madness - the rules do not work that way!

Likewise, characters are tougher and more resilient in 3E. Why not just nova every group and then go to sleep? Even in a "realistic" 3E game this can be optimal more often than not. In 1E, you are way too fragile to risk such a strategy - spells can be fouled in any number of ways, there is no good way to set up "unbeatable" attacks, and even 1 night's sleep may not leave you prepared for a second day of adventuring.

What the OP was asking for was an introduction to the logic of 1E. Merely saying "use common sense" ain't gonna cut it :smalltongue:

[JonestheSpy]

During initiative count, your actions actually consume your initiative number. e.g Casting a spell can be done right away, but moving 15 ft and then casting can cause you to go after someone else.


This is something I actually incorporate into my 3.x games. It just seems totally wrong that you can take a move action and then a standard action while everyone just sits there.

[Matthew]

I'm playing in a home brewed version of 1st edition and I'm kinda scared to do anything cuz I'll die. I have no idea what's home brewed and what's not, but everything hurts, and wounds don't heal that fast.

During initiative count, your actions actually consume your initiative number. e.g Casting a spell can be done right away, but moving 15 ft and then casting can cause you to go after someone else.

Unfortunately, first edition initiative is pretty incomprehensible without multiple readings, so it seems your game master may have invented his own system based on it. In general, though, the idea that moving or performing other time consuming actions will delay an attack is supportable.



Any damage that takes you below 0 requires an extra healing spell/potion to repair before you can fight again. Say you go to -5 from 4 hit points. I need a cure spell to heal me up to 4 hit points, and then 5 more cure spells before I can fight again. Resting 8 hours heals 1 wound or 1 hp, and any interruptions requires another 8 hour rest. I have no skill points and statistics don't give bonuses at even 12, 14, 16, etc.

As Mark says, your game master is being generous on the negative hit point issue, skills are not relevant to first edition, and bonuses from attributes are hard to come by. Basically, this forces you to be inventive, but class and race were a kind of "super skill set" depending on how your game master chooses to run his game. Likely you will never have to make a skill check to ride a horse, for instance, but probably only fighter types will be able to control war horses off the bat.



(God damn, who's bright idea was it to made thrown weapons use strength stat?!)

Should be dexterity in first edition, with strength supplementing if you buy specially weighted weapons (at the discretion of the game master). In second edition it is both.



I'm a Human Wizard lvl 1 with 4 hp and 3 spells (sleep x 3). I'm proficient with a dagger and that's it. How am I suppose to deal with combat/role playing dangerous situations? I'm playing as conservative as possible, but I'd like some advice.

Well, in first edition you would ordinarily only have 1 sleep spell, so you have a leg up there, sounds like your game master is house ruling bonus spells from intelligence. :smallbiggrin:

It sounds to me as though you have the right idea, be cautious as Oracle Hunter suggests. Possibly hire some mercenaries as hirelings in the near future. Generally, though, the magician is artillery support for the party, your role is not combat, and role-playing your character in dangerous situations usually means taking these things into account. Combat is relatively fast, but often you will simply not be able to contribute during the round, after all that is where the fighters really count.



(1) There is no Coup De Grace action

Actually, there is, and it means auto death when magically held/sleeping and no combat is going on in the vicinity. If there is combat going on, it's an automatic hit for maximum damage. Of course, you observe correctly that having the magician stroll into the danger zone to do the honours is a bad idea, and the general thrust of what you say is reasonable. :smallbiggrin:

[Thane of Fife]

Corollary: Befriend the Cleric. You'll be seeing a lot of him :smalltongue:

If you, as the wizard, are seeing a lot of the cleric, then you're counting on luck way too much. You're a magic-user. You get 1d4 hit points. Almost anything will kill you in one hit. If the cleric is curing you, then you were lucky enough to get hit for only 1-2 points of damage, most likely. And that's a waste of a spell.

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa2ucfgVgQ) - it's good advice. And note the "keep the fighters hale and hearty." Not the wizards. Until they have more hit points, they're their own responsibility.

[HMS Invincible]

1. I'm not the one getting hit, but I AM the one fearing for my life. We tried to spend time healing up by resting constantly and doing nothing but healing, but the random encounters alone wiped away most of the progress we made with 6 cure spells every 4 hours. We spent 2 days sleeping and only managed to a net gain of 1 additional PC that was available to fight.

2. Thrown weapons are str based and weapons that are fired are dex based, or something like that. Makes me regret putting all those points into dex.

3. Initiative works like a combined timer for everyone. The guy who went on his turn to autokill the orc I slept moved on his initiative 18. By the time he got there, it burned through initiative count to 13. At 14 initiative, the orc #2 went. They met in the middle and the orc swung his weapon. Fellow PC is now dead.

[Matthew]

1. I'm not the one getting hit, but I AM the one fearing for my life. We tried to spend time healing up by resting constantly and doing nothing but healing, but the random encounters alone wiped away most of the progress we made with 6 cure spells every 4 hours. We spent 2 days sleeping and only managed to a net gain of 1 additional PC that was available to fight.

That sounds right; you definitely cannot expect to rest in the dungeon or wilderness, as random encounters will wear you down. They are designed to prevent you from resting "in theatre".



2. Thrown weapons are str based and weapons that are fired are dex based, or something like that. Makes me regret putting all those points into dex.

Definitely a house rule; cannot really help you out there, by the book your character should get a bonus to hit with thrown weapons from high dexterity [e.g. 16 = +1, 17 = +2, 18 = +3].



3. Initiative works like a combined timer for everyone. The guy who went on his turn to autokill the orc I slept moved on his initiative 18. By the time he got there, it burned through initiative count to 13. At 14 initiative, the orc #2 went. They met in the middle and the orc swung his weapon. Fellow PC is now dead.

Also definitely a house rule; it sounds vaguely like it might be based on the new edition of Hack Master (5e).

[jmbrown]

The initiative rules for this sound unnecessarily complicated. In 1E and 2E you rolled 1d6 for the good guys and the badguys. Whoever gets highest chooses their actions first. You can only do certain actions such as a tactical withdraw, attack (which includes a move), charge, cast a spell, etc. Both parties resolved actions at the same time with the attacker's weapon speed determining who struck the other first (most spells had a casting time of 1 segment or 6 seconds which is equal to a weapon with speed of 6).

It was a simple and intuitive system that literally took 10 seconds to adjudicate and required no ridiculous book keeping. I know you guys are running homebrew but you might seriously want to look through that system because this sounds like a headache to track without magnetic counters on a whiteboard or something.


2. Thrown weapons are str based and weapons that are fired are dex based, or something like that. Makes me regret putting all those points into dex.

In 1E and 2E, anything that's not a melee weapon is modified by your to-hit range score which is determined by your dexterity. This is why most wizards specialized in darts and throwing daggers; they usually had high dexterity to offset their low strength. By restricting damage AND to-hit through strength only you guys are really, really gimping non-fighters especially considering a wizard's to-hit modifier is absolute garbage in these editions. Unless you were multi-classed or used tenser's transformation, creating a gish wizard in 1E/2E was near impossible.


1. I'm not the one getting hit, but I AM the one fearing for my life. We tried to spend time healing up by resting constantly and doing nothing but healing, but the random encounters alone wiped away most of the progress we made with 6 cure spells every 4 hours. We spent 2 days sleeping and only managed to a net gain of 1 additional PC that was available to fight.


1E/2E assume that you abuse henchmen. They're cheap, they're reliable, and unless you guys have charisma scores in the low single digits you can each buy a lot of them. Henchmen are the TRUE meat shields. Their entire existence is based around stopping traps with their faces and drawing enemy fire so you could swoop in while they're being maimed.

If you guys are literally playing with a party of 4 or 5 dudes you're going to get raped. This isn't Tolkien high fantasy which is kind of what 3rd edition became, this is Conan the Barbarian swords and sorcery. Literally everything is out to get you. You can't walk to the outhouse 10' behind the tavern without rolling to see if an ogre pops out of the john to ambush you.

[Mojo_Rat]

It sounds like the OP is experiencing the Segment rules. These fell under the 'far more complicated than needed to be' rules.


The standard 1e init is 1d6 +dex. With a phase for Archers first then melee. Simple as that.

That said though one thing that helps to realize is that Fleeing is Good. It depends a Bit on your DM But especialy when dealing with Random encounters you need to realize that sometimes Small children lost in the woods encounter Rabid grizzlies and its best to run. (though maybe thats a bad example as th ebear would quickly over run the small child)

The Poster abve me also covered a very important point in that Umlike 3e low level or 0class NPCS can be useful they can hit and kill higher level things with numbers and most importantly they take hits for the PC's.

One thing thats also useful to know Is if your using the Ac modifiery rules based onw eapon type (which if your using segment initiative im guessing you probably are) be aware Of what your vulnerable to and what you can hit well.

Spells like sleep are extremely useful as they deal with alot of enemies without a save.

[Lvl45DM!]

Str affects thrown weapon damage not accuracy in core 1st Ed tell him thtat see if he changes

[Matthew]

It sounds like the OP is experiencing the Segment rules. These fell under the 'far more complicated than needed to be' rules.

Not with counts from 18 he is not; there are only 10 segments in a round in first edition.



The standard 1e initiative is 1d6 +dex. With a phase for Archers first then melee. Simple as that.

Sounds like you might have been playing with house rules too. :smallbiggrin:

Dexterity is only used to modify initiative for missile attacks, though it was a fairly common house rule to apply it in melee as well. There are actually 8 phases of action in a round (A-H), but it is far from clear how they interact with initiative.



Strength affects thrown weapon damage not accuracy in core 1st Ed tell him that see if he changes.

This is not correct; if strength is applied with missile weapons it affects both to hit and damage rolls, but it is only applied if special weapons are employed (see DMG, p. 64).

[jmbrown]

(though maybe thats a bad example as th ebear would quickly over run the small child)

Zigzag. Bears have shorter hind legs and lose speed when changing directions.

[bosssmiley]

I'm playing in a homebrewed version of 1st edition and I'm kinda scared to do anything cuz I'll die. I have no idea what's homebrewed and what's not, but everything hurts, and wounds don't heal that fast.

Welcome to Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. :smallbiggrin:


During initiative count, your actions actually consume your initiative number. e.g Casting a spell can be done right away, but moving 15 ft and then casting can cause you to go after someone else.

In some respects this makes sense (coz doing stuff takes time), but the granularity of it sounds so bleedin' fiddly. Give me 1d6 group initiative any day. :smallannoyed:


Any damage that takes you below 0 requires an extra healing spell/potion to repair before you can fight again. Say you go to -5 from 4 hitpoints. I need a cure spell to heal me up to 4 hitpoints, and then 5 more cure spells before I can fight again. Resting 8 hours heals 1 wound or 1 hp, and any interruptions requires anohter 8 hour rest.

Your DM has tinkered with the healing rules. My simple advice: try not to die.


I have no skill points...

No-one has skill points in TSR D&D. All skill use is either handled narratively ("Ok, but...") or through ability checks: roll under this or that stat on a d20 at +/-n modifier. Generally there is a "presumption of competence" on the parts of the characters in TSR-era D&D: you can do it, unless there's a good reason you can't.

Exceptions: Thieves get their thief abilities, and if you're using the (optional) non-weapon proficiency rules character might have ability in things like charioteering, mining, and the like.


...and stats don't give bonuses at even 12, 14, 16, etc.

AD&D player: "Stat adds by level? We used to dream of stat adds by level! We'd take a belt of Giant Strength when we could get one, and be grateful for it."
OD&D player: "You were lucky! We only ever had a maximum bonus from stats of +1. A bonus of +3 at 18? Luxury!"
:smallamused:

Adjust your expectations: stats mean less in AD&D than they do in d20 games, and smaller bonuses count for more.

Old D&D stats don't scale the way d20 system stats do because the dice mathematics of TSR D&D don't use the d20 "roll and add vs TN" system. Because the die roll is not open-ended you're always rolling over or under a number on a fixed scale 1-20 range (yes, even in AC). This in turn means that stat adds are less prevalent than they are in WOTC D&D, simply because the numbers the game uses don't get so big.

Net result: the system does not require that you be doled out stat adder magic items and handwaved "moar powah!" ever 4 levels just to keep you on the RNG. Your potential for greatness is inherent from 1st level.


I'm a Human Wizard lvl 1 with 4 hp and 3 spells(sleepx3). I'm proficient with a dagger and that's it. How am I suppose to deal with combat/roleplaying dangerous situations? I'm playing as conservative as possible, but I'd like some advice.

Fight smart. Hit-and-run. Throw burning oil (even a wizard finds it hard to miss the ground). Create distractions. And for goodness sake get behind the fighters. Your character can be *much* more than a wand of sleep on legs, so long as you make him useful.

[Cyrion]

I'll reinforce what's been mentioned before- 1e is NOT based on the idea that a party will be composed of 1 each of the iconic roles, especially in a dungeon crawl. You will find that survivability dramatically increases with larger parties. Even adding 2 to make it a party of 6 pays large benefits. You can do this with henchmen or hirelings, but I'd recommend that you try to do it with PCs- they level faster.

[Yahzi]

Hire mercenaries. Fighters in D&D are faceless minions that are supposed to die.

[Elana]

...
No-one has skill points in TSR D&D. ...

You mean of course in AD&D

Because for D&D my Rules Cyclopedia says otherwise (page 81)

Investing the first skill point even gives you the skill as high as the appropriate attribute.
(Which is quite a boon compared to using the modifier)
Every additional point increased the skill by just a single point, like in WOTC editions.

And for more fun, the wrestling rules in TSR D&D were easier to use than the grappling rules of WoTC
(And probably also missing in "Advanced" D&D)

AD&D 1st Ed seems to be a unlucky game.
In many ways worse than the old plain D&D but missing la lot of the good stuff from 2nd Ed.
(What a luck that it is also the one edition I skipped, well okay I skip 4E too, but that is besides the point)

[BobVosh]

If you are worried about HP now...wait until you see how HP advances after 10 HD.

Anyway: Invest in a crossbow. Love your crossbow. Hide from anything that looks threatening, even the silverware. Animated forks have been the downfall of a many mage. You think 3.5 cats are bad? Look at the stats for an elven cat. Do not pet the pointy eared one's cat. Avoid it.

You are squishy, but you do fill the role of glass cannon much more accurately than in 3.5. Also enlarge person goes from a spell that is almost a nerf to an incredible buff.

Also while you have much less HP, the monsters are similarly effected. Some aspects of gods barely break 200 HP.

Skills are for chumps. NWP are ok...but still chumpish. You will learn to like rolling below your str, or int.

[LibraryOgre]

If you are worried about HP now...wait until you see how HP advances after 10 HD.

Anyway: Invest in a crossbow. Love your crossbow. Hide from anything that looks threatening, even the silverware. Animated forks have been the downfall of a many mage. You think 3.5 cats are bad? Look at the stats for an elven cat. Do not pet the pointy eared one's cat. Avoid it.

You left out "Utterly suck with your crossbow"... non-weapon penalty on a mage is -4 or -5.

[hamlet]

You left out "Utterly suck with your crossbow"... non-weapon penalty on a mage is -4 or -5.

Not to mention that, if I recall, the magic user could never gain proficiency in said weapon. Least as I remember.

Best advice for a magic-user is "learn that you are a frail bookworm with a glass jaw and should stay far away from men with pointy sticks as possible no matter how powerful the spell you have up your sleeve."

[t_catt11]

Eyep. Crossbows will be suckage for you always as a mage. Even a high level mage stays away from fighters in melee if he knows what's good for him - one whack and your spell fizzles.

Funny how in many cases that balances play out better than all of the class balancing they did in d20 and later. :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

Not to mention that, if I recall, the magic user could never gain proficiency in said weapon. Least as I remember.

Best advice for a magic-user is "learn that you are a frail bookworm with a glass jaw and should stay far away from men with pointy sticks as possible no matter how powerful the spell you have up your sleeve."

And, of course, the bit I never remember (because it wasn't an issue in 2e, where I still think), is that in 1e, using an out-of-class weapon could spell a hit to your training, both in cost and time. While a single use (firing a crossbow because it's the only thing you have left, your darts/dagger/quarterstaff already in flinders) isn't likely to do much, favoring such a weapon is going to be techy.

There was a Dragon Magazine article that consisted solely of advice to graduating mages. The one piece of advice that stuck with me was "The best armor you are likely to find is a good suit of plate mail. Buy some, enchant it if you can... and stick it on the biggest fighter you can find, and put him between you and all danger."

There was also a bit about "if I find out you died with an unspent wand because you 'didn't want to waste it', I will bring you back to life so I can kill you myself."

[Kurald Galain]

Eyep. Crossbows will be suckage for you always as a mage. Even a high level mage stays away from fighters in melee if he knows what's good for him - one whack and your spell fizzles.

Except if he knows Tenser's Transformation :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, it strikes me that 2E is in certain ways better balanced than 3E, particularly because 3E throw out many of the long-standing safeguards of 2E.

[hamlet]

Except if he knows Tenser's Transformation :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, it strikes me that 2E is in certain ways better balanced than 3E, particularly because 3E throw out many of the long-standing safeguards of 2E.

And then spent how long griping about how over powered casters were and how underpowered fighters were . . .


Actually, I change my advice above. While it's still valid, I think a better bit of advice is to realize that, while your spells are what make you as a mage special, they are not the only thing you can do, nor are they often the best or more appropriate thing to do. Holding the lantern in the back row, dragging unconcious comrades out of the front lines and binding their wounds, drawing maps, working out riddles, all that may not be as glamorous or spectacular as wasting an entire orc squad with a fire ball, but it's certainly crucial to party success and is probably a more efficient investment of resources.

Save your spells for when they're actually required and don't treat them like a hammer or you end up treating every problem like a nail.

[LibraryOgre]

Except if he knows Tenser's Transformation :smallbiggrin:

True, but that's a 6th or 7th level spell slot to hit someone with a crossbow.


But yeah, it strikes me that 2E is in certain ways better balanced than 3E, particularly because 3E throw out many of the long-standing safeguards of 2E.

In many ways, it was. While it broke down when you got to really high levels (anything above 9th), prior to that, most warriors could do some damage to wizards, especially if they had a good ratio. There are a number of reasons for that... fighter's ability to move and make a full attack; wizard spells taking more time for higher level spells, while fighter initiatives went down (due to magic weapons, mostly, but higher masteries can come into it if you're using those rules); lowered choice of spells; lowered chance of Save or Suck spells succeeding; fighter HP being 2+ points ahead of most wizard damages.

Really, I think the thing that balanced out low-level casters, that 3e did but 2e did not, was scrolls If you allow scroll creation at 1st level, wizards become a lot more flexible without necessarily becoming combat monsters (especially since, IIRC, scrolls took Casting Time + 3 for initiative).

[Cyrion]

One thing though- if you get good at AD&D mages you'll probably never do the "15-minute game day" again because you husband your spells a bit more and find other productive ways to contribute. Don't forget the mundane things- oil flasks, colored chalk, ground pepper, asafoetida oil, etc. You can get a lot of mileage out of these kinds of things if your DM encourages creativity.

[Thane of Fife]

True, but that's a 6th or 7th level spell slot to hit someone with a crossbow.

Actually, that spell requires you to use either a quarterstaff or dagger, and to attack in melee if possible. At least it does in 2e anyway, I assume it's not too different in 1st.

[LibraryOgre]

Actually, that spell requires you to use either a quarterstaff or dagger, and to attack in melee if possible. At least it does in 2e anyway, I assume it's not too different in 1st.

I wouldn't doubt it.

[Mojo_Rat]

[QUOTE=Matthew;7250940]Not with counts from 18 he is not; there are only 10 segments in a round in first edition.


Sounds like you might have been playing with house rules too. :smallbiggrin:

It wouldnt surprise me, I never ead the 1ed rule sbehond what was neeeded as a player. The DM i play it with ive known 25 years and He may have read the Rules wrong when we were teenagers then Just kept playing with misunderstood rules.

When Gygax died we decded to do a tribute game and he re-read all the rules and we found out we were doing alot of stuff wrong :P


On the Main topic of the Thread though.

You'll find theres a point where yous top needing Weenies to take hits from You and so on. By and large its a Fun game (though the book suffers horribly from editing)

I think by lvl 3-4 it was yous topped feeling like every fight was life and death.

[hamlet]

You'll find theres a point where yous top needing Weenies to take hits from You and so on. By and large its a Fun game (though the book suffers horribly from editing)

I think by lvl 3-4 it was yous topped feeling like every fight was life and death.

Point of order, a 1st edition mage NEVER stopped needing meat shields . . . err companions, to stand between him and harm. One hit and his spell is spoiled and lost.

Plus, if by 4th or 5th level, fights don't feel like life and death to the PC's, then the DM is doing something wrong. Really good fights ALWAYS feel like they're balanced on the knife's edge.