PDA

View Full Version : What tier are clerics without DMM?



Myrmex
2009-11-03, 03:54 PM
As on the tin.

jokey665
2009-11-03, 03:58 PM
As on the tin.

1.

10characters

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 03:59 PM
Still Tier 1. Without DMM, they pick different domains and use Quicken Spell liberally to bypass some of the action economy. They play different, but still as powerful (they don't do melee as often though).

The right feats/ACFs/PrCs make the class just as powerful as a straight DMM Cleric. RKV+(Reflavored) Ordained Champion, for example.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 03:59 PM
Favored Soul is tier 2 without the possibility of DMM. Clerics are still tier 1.

Indon
2009-11-03, 04:01 PM
Weaker Tier 1, but still there.

Without metamagic at all, they might drop down to a very strong Tier 2, but even that's debatable.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-03, 04:03 PM
Tier 1. DMM is powerful, sure, but it's not what puts the cleric in that position. You still have a full caster with a great spell list with a good hit die, the ability to wear armor, and no real weaknesses.

UglyPanda
2009-11-03, 04:03 PM
Even without DMM, they're very versatile casters. If a spell is on their list, they can use it. And their list got bigger and better with each supplement.

Defiant
2009-11-03, 04:08 PM
Where is DMM found? What book?

Tavar
2009-11-03, 04:11 PM
Complete Divine. Really, it gets alot of flak because it can be combined with some other stuff to make Clerics even better, but if used in a non-jerk way it's a really useful feat.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:13 PM
Are you guys sure? You're going to have to be burning through a ton of your spells to be halfway decent at melee, especially the higher end ones since you get no metamagic mitigation.

I can see spontaneous domain access with the right domains is going to make you *almost* as good as a wizard, since you can get Time Stop.

But barring the last 15% of the game (which is kinda a horrible way to judge a class' power), is the cleric still that high? Without abusable persistent spell, he's really lost the action economy advantage, and he now actually has to prepare multiples of the same spell.

What's a spell list look like for, say, a level 15 cleric, without DMM?

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 04:14 PM
Even without DMM, they're very versatile casters. If a spell is on their list, they can use it. And their list got bigger and better with each supplement.

Hell, even Core-Only Cleric has some power. IIRC, most Save or Die spells are Cleric spells.


Are you guys sure? You're going to have to be burning through a ton of your spells to be halfway decent at melee, especially the higher end ones since you get no metamagic mitigation.

That's why I said they play differently. Melee is a semi-last resort (though they have access to Shapechange and Time Stop with the right domains)



I can see spontaneous domain access with the right domains is going to make you *almost* as good as a wizard, since you can get Time Stop.

Neither the Druid nor Cleric will ever be on par with the Wizard in terms of casting power. Class features? Maybe. But sheer spellcasting ability? The Wizard wins hands down. Arcane spell access is considered the reason the Artificer, Archivist, and Erudite are considered the three most broken of the Big 6 in overall potential.


But barring the last 15% of the game (which is kinda a horrible way to judge a class' power), is the cleric still that high? Without abusable persistent spell, he's really lost the action economy advantage, and he now actually has to prepare multiples of the same spell.

Does it matter? Two spells, both of which can be Quickened, put them right back in the Front Line (Divine Power+Righteous Might). If they picked their feats right and geared it towards melee, they'd be as efficient as an optimized Fighter in terms of Staying power (they likely focus on Tripping and Disarming more than on Power Attack).

The main difference between a DMM Cleric and a Non-DMM Cleric is the likelihood of Leadership being on the character sheet. That feat makes up for the lack of DMM by giving them someone to buff during combat.

UglyPanda
2009-11-03, 04:18 PM
I wasn't implying that their core list was bad. Their core list is quite good in fact. But unlike the Wizard (and definitely unlike the Sorcerer), there is no cost to them if they want to use a new spell or they want to have spells that are only useful in certain terrains (Water walk, endure elements, etc.). A Wizard needs downtime to improve his available spells and a Sorcerer needs to level up to do so. A Cleric can get whatever spell he damn well pleases the very next day.

jiriku
2009-11-03, 04:23 PM
Are you guys sure? You're going to have to be burning through a ton of your spells to be halfway decent at melee, especially the higher end ones since you get no metamagic mitigation.

Burning through a ton of spells is no great price when you have two tons of spells. Further, being decent at melee is a pretty modest goal to have in life. Clerics do so much more than that.

Also, wizards don't have any in-class metamagic mitigation, but manage to hold their Tier 1 slot quite nicely. It's not free metamagic that puts the Tier 1 classes in Tier 1; it's the spells themselves.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 04:25 PM
Burning through a ton of spells is no great price when you have two tons of spells. Further, being decent at melee is a pretty modest goal to have in life. Clerics do so much more than that.

Also, wizards don't have any in-class metamagic mitigation, but manage to hold their Tier 1 slot quite nicely. It's not free metamagic that puts the Tier 1 classes in Tier 1; it's the spells themselves.

Ok, let's see your cleric's spell list. Just give like 3 spells/level that are good.

valadil
2009-11-03, 04:26 PM
Complete Divine. Really, it gets alot of flak because it can be combined with some other stuff to make Clerics even better, but if used in a non-jerk way it's a really useful feat.

The most popular way to abuse it is with night sticks, from (I think) libris mortis. They give you extra turn undead charges. You don't need to equip night sticks to gain charges, and they stack with themselves. I've seen DMM used without night sticks and it still seemed pretty powerful (though not broken). If I ever GM for a cleric that wants to go this route I'd probably give him DMM and I'd give him night sticks but I wouldn't let them combine. In my games night sticks will only work for turning undead, not for the 80 gazillion other applications of turn undead.

UglyPanda
2009-11-03, 04:28 PM
Ok, let's see your cleric's spell list. Just give like 3 spells/level that are good.Here are some of the good spells. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=8c76cff74667b2315eb6c68e82c9fa 4d&topic=420.msg8434#msg8434)

PinkysBrain
2009-11-03, 04:29 PM
In a core only game until you get the high level spells and you can afford metamagic rods it's really only command undead abuse which can make the cleric better than the tier 3 casters IMO.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 04:35 PM
Ok, let's see your cleric's spell list. Just give like 3 spells/level that are good.

UglyPanda beat me to the punch. Most of those are buffs/debuffs, and AfterCrescent never put the PH2 spells on that list (which has some good ones too).

Gnaeus
2009-11-03, 04:48 PM
In a core only game until you get the high level spells and you can afford metamagic rods it's really only command undead abuse which can make the cleric better than the tier 3 casters IMO.

You don't understand the tier system well. Tier 1 roughly equals Tier 3 in power level. The difference comes in their adaptability and their access to game shattering effects. Beguiler has 9th level spells including Time Stop, so its raw power = a tier 1. Same with Dread Necro.

Tier 2 = Tier 3 + access to some effects that are game breaking.
Tier 1=Tier 3+ access to a huge range of effects that are game breaking.

Edit: in a Core only game there is only 1 Tier 3 caster... Bard. Core Cleric > Core Bard at any level. Better HP, AC, Saves. More Spells. Better Spells.

Superglucose
2009-11-03, 04:50 PM
Ok, let's see your cleric's spell list. Just give like 3 spells/level that are good.
Whatchoo talkin' about?

Clerics have a ton of save or dies! More than the Wizards do.

At first level they've got Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Obscuring Mist, Cause Fear (low levels only), Doom (low levels only).

Second, Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, Shatter, Lesser Restoration, Silence.

Third, Bestow Curse (which they can easily deliver thanks to full plate + BAB + great hit die) Invisibility Purge, Magic Vestment, windwall.

Fourth, Death Ward (!!!!), Divine Power (!!!!), Freedom of Movement (!!!!), Poison (!!!!), restoration.

Fifth, Break Enchantment, Plane Shift, Righteous Might (!!!!), True Seeing.

Sixth, Banishment, Forbiddance, Heal, Planar Ally, Wind Walk, Word of Recall.

Seventh, Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos, Destruction, Resurrection, Greater Restoration.

Eighth, AMF, Greater Planar Ally, Greater Spell Immunity.

Ninth, Gate, Miracle, Implosion, Mass Heal, Storm of Vengeance, True Resurrection.

There, I didn't even need to delve into domains.
EDIT: or leave core!

Eldariel
2009-11-03, 04:52 PM
DMM is still worthwhile without Nightsticks. You just need to take Extra Turning aplenty. It becomes your Font of Inspiration, sorta.


As for Cleric-spells, quick Core-list (obviously non-core makes 'em more versatile):
1: Cause Fear [on low levels], Command, Protection from Alignment, Obscuring Mist, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield
2: Silence (!!), Shatter, Hold Person, Calm Emotions, Bull's Strength-line, Lesser Restoration, Align Weapon, Resist Energy
3: Blindness, Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment, Magic Circle vs Alignment, Stone Shape, Wind Wall, Bestow Curse, Protection from Energy, Invisibility Purge (quite redundant with Dispel Magic tho outside few corner cases)
4: Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Greater Magic Weapon, Lesser Planar Ally, Divine Power, Air Walk, Poison, Giant Vermin, Divination, Dismissal, Dimensional Anchor, Restoration
5: Slay Living, Wall of Stone, Symbol of Sleep/Pain, Plane Shift (note the offensive uses too, and that two castings can sorta mimic unreliable Teleport), Righteous Might, Scrying, Raise Dead, Dispel Alignment
6: Heal(/Harm) (!!), Greater Dispel Magic, Antilife Shield, Heroes' Feast, Planar Ally, Word of Recall, Undeath to Death, Wind Walk, Symbols
7: Control Weather, Destruction, Holy Word-line, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Scrying, Refuge, Symbols
8: Anti-Magic Field, Dimensional Lock, Holy Aura-line, Greater Spell Immunity, Greater Planar Ally - Lackluster level for filling all slots, I suggest some Quickened 4th levels.
9: Miracle, Miracle, Miracle, Miracle! Just about the best 9th level in the damn game. Though Gate & Astral Projection are awesome as learned from Wizards, and Mass Heal & True Resurrection are pretty swell too. Implosion is funny if not amazing.


EDIT: Now I just wasted time. Blah.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 05:16 PM
You don't understand the tier system well. Tier 1 roughly equals Tier 3 in power level. The difference comes in their adaptability and their access to game shattering effects. Beguiler has 9th level spells including Time Stop, so its raw power = a tier 1. Same with Dread Necro.

Tier 2 = Tier 3 + access to some effects that are game breaking.
Tier 1=Tier 3+ access to a huge range of effects that are game breaking.

Edit: in a Core only game there is only 1 Tier 3 caster... Bard. Core Cleric > Core Bard at any level. Better HP, AC, Saves. More Spells. Better Spells.

Umm, I think you are a little confused here.


Tier 3: Balanced enough to have very few game breakers, but powerful enough to be fun. Flexible, and not likely to be screwed except in extreme circumstances or through poor player choices. Requires maximum optimization to truly break the game. May seem broken when moderately optimized and compared to sub-optimal characters or lower-tiered classes. Very difficult to actually make these characters seem underpowered.

Tier 2: Capable of defying every major rule in the game through some means. Capable of shattering game balance with optimization or good tactical thought. Can be horrifically crippled by poor choices. Proper selection of abilities may make them seem invulnerable.

Tier 1: Capable of everything the lower tiered classes are capable of, and then some. Inherently broken due to support and sheer number of options. Possible to cripple with poor choices, but even light optimization shatters any opposition they may face that isn't likewise in power. Full optimization can render these characters nigh invulnerable.

Tier 0: Doesn't technically exist, but it a measure of optimization. Any class can potentially hit this level (Pun-Pun), but higher Tier classes can do similar things (Echoing Shadow Miracle, Arcane Fusion spam, Planar Shepherd, etc). Guaranteed to break campaigns, even if all players are at the same or similar level. Impossible to challenge.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 05:22 PM
The difference between persistent spells and no persistent spells seems like a vast gulf, imo. When the party wizard gets 3 levels of incantatrix, you are playing an entirely different game. You know all those "yeah, but a wizard COULD do this" arguments? With persistent effects, the wizard already did, yesterday.

Same deal with the cleric. He's a juggernaught when he gets to choose the 20 best spells available and have them last all day, then pick the rest of his spells as utility.

Otherwise, both characters are going to spend a lot of the game having to make really hard choices between getting to cast an awesome spell 2x day, or two awesome spells once/day.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-03, 05:27 PM
You don't understand the tier system well. Tier 1 roughly equals Tier 3 in power level. The difference comes in their adaptability and their access to game shattering effects.
Adaptability is power ... as for game shattering effects, as I said only command undead qualifies at low level in a core only game.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 05:28 PM
That's not pushing things down to Tier 2 though. A straight wizard or a non-DMM cleric is still Tier 1 due to options. They may not be as high as more powerful builds in the hierarchy of power that makes up Tier 1, but they're still there.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 05:40 PM
That's not pushing things down to Tier 2 though. A straight wizard or a non-DMM cleric is still Tier 1 due to options. They may not be as high as more powerful builds in the hierarchy of power that makes up Tier 1, but they're still there.

Exactly. Note that the Tiers list doesn't say DMM Clerics are Tier 1, it says Clerics in general are Tier 1. DMM Cleric is a specific build, which the Tiers list doesn't take into consideration. It mentions that some builds can raise/lower a class a tier or so, but the list is built around the class' abilities. Build Potential doesn't matter.


It has some exceptions though, such as the Dungeoncrasher Fighter or Wild Shape Ranger. But even with those exceptions, variants like the Shapeshift Druid are still Tier 1 because the class is still that powerful.

jiriku
2009-11-03, 05:43 PM
The difference between persistent spells and no persistent spells seems like a vast gulf, imo. When the party wizard gets 3 levels of incantatrix, you are playing an entirely different game. You know all those "yeah, but a wizard COULD do this" arguments? With persistent effects, the wizard already did, yesterday.

Same deal with the cleric. He's a juggernaught when he gets to choose the 20 best spells available and have them last all day, then pick the rest of his spells as utility.

Otherwise, both characters are going to spend a lot of the game having to make really hard choices between getting to cast an awesome spell 2x day, or two awesome spells once/day.

Your point is valid. However, the wizard gets its Tier 1 designation WITHOUT assuming three levels of incantatrix. You're correct that a metamagic-abusing character is an order of magnitude more powerful than a "typical" wizard or cleric. However, it's the "typical" wizard or cleric that earns that Tier 1 designation. The Metamagic-abusing caster is so powerful that it can't even be accurately measured by the Tier system.

I mean, seriously, even without persistent spell, I can build a sorcerer who can deal 20x his own hit point total in area damage per round. I can build a wizard who can annihilate every living thing in an area the size of Washington D.C. in less than an hour. And I can build a rogue who can...hide really well. And therein lies the difference captured by the Tier system.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-03, 05:52 PM
The rogue has UMD and gold, since it's the spells which are broken he can do quite a bit.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 05:55 PM
The rogue has UMD and gold, since it's the spells which are broken he can do quite a bit.

Then he's not using his Rogue class features to do so (anyone can UMD or spend GP). That's what the Tiers system cares about the most.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 05:55 PM
Your point is valid. However, the wizard gets its Tier 1 designation WITHOUT assuming three levels of incantatrix. You're correct that a metamagic-abusing character is an order of magnitude more powerful than a "typical" wizard or cleric. However, it's the "typical" wizard or cleric that earns that Tier 1 designation. The Metamagic-abusing caster is so powerful that it can't even be accurately measured by the Tier system.

I mean, seriously, even without persistent spell, I can build a sorcerer who can deal 20x his own hit point total in area damage per round. I can build a wizard who can annihilate every living thing in an area the size of Washington D.C. in less than an hour. And I can build a rogue who can...hide really well. And therein lies the difference captured by the Tier system.

I can see why arcane casters are Tier 1, but clerics lack the "I have a spell for every class feature" repertoire that wizards get.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-03, 06:00 PM
Then he's not using his Rogue class features to do so (anyone can UMD or spend GP). That's what the Tiers system cares about the most.

Actually, UMD is a class skill for rogues, so there's a much stronger argument for them than for other classes...

Like fighter.
And monk.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 06:07 PM
Let's look at it this way. Using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) has a significant cost:
Extend Spell feat
Persistent Spell feat
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) feat
Ways of boosting turn attempts: Extra Turning feat/Nightsticks/whatever
Spend all that and you can persist 2, maybe 3, spells a day. There's only a significant upside to this if your DM is stupid and lets you stack Nightsticks.

A Metamagic Rod of Quicken (standard, for level 1-6 spells) costs 75,500 gp. With that you can quickly put up your buff spells (like Divine Power) when you enter combat. That's not cheap, but neither is the cost of 4 feats trivial for Clerics. And please don't start on how domains are "free". They, too, are precious resources that can be used for other things.

Personally I like to use my turn undead attempts, and domains, for other things than persisting buff spells. I'm especially fond of Travel Devotion as a way to make good use of both. 30 swift action moves a day? Yes, please!

So a Cleric is definitely up in the midst of Tier 1 characters without Divine Metamagic. Remove that and there's really not much difference.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 06:11 PM
Let's look at it this way. Using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) has a significant cost:
Extend Spell feat
Persistent Spell feat
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) feat
Ways of boosting turn attempts: Extra Turning feat/Nightsticks/whatever
Spend all that and you can persist 2, maybe 3, spells a day. There's only a significant upside to this if your DM is stupid and lets you stack Nightsticks.

A Metamagic Rod of Quicken (standard, for level 1-6 spells) costs 75,500 gp. With that you can quickly put up your buff spells (like Divine Power) when you enter combat. That's not cheap, but neither is the cost of 4 feats trivial for Clerics. And please don't start on how domains are "free". They, too, are precious resources that can be used for other things.

Personally I like to use my turn undead attempts, and domains, for other things than persisting buff spells. I'm especially fond of Travel Devotion as a way to make good use of both. 30 swift action moves a day? Yes, please!

So a Cleric is definitely up in the midst of Tier 1 characters without Divine Metamagic. Remove that and there's really not much difference.

..uh?
The difference between buffs that last all day (not hard to get 10 all day buffs) and buffs that last for a minute is ABSURD. Having 10 'I win' spells up all the time is worth any number of feats. All your feats, in fact.

Radiun
2009-11-03, 06:16 PM
Having 10 'I win' spells up all the time is worth any number of feats. All your feats, in fact.

Heck, I them some of them GIVE you feats

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 06:38 PM
The difference between buffs that last all day (not hard to get 10 all day buffs) and buffs that last for a minute is ABSURD. Having 10 'I win' spells up all the time is worth any number of feats. All your feats, in fact.
Putting up 10 buffs with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) will require 70 turn undead attempts.
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. If you can get 10 all-day buffs that way, that's a ridiculous amount of power, and your DM needs some remedial education.

Since your basis for argument is off in Never-Never Land, I'll stop now.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 06:54 PM
Putting up 10 buffs with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) will require 70 turn undead attempts. If you can get 10 all-day buffs that way, that's a ridiculous amount of power, and your DM needs some remedial education.

Since your basis for argument is off in Never-Never Land, I'll stop now.

Stuff:
Extend (from domain)
Extra Turning (domain)
Extra Turning (human bonus)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Persist (level 1)
DMM (level 3)
Easy Metamagic (level 6)
Practical Metamagic (level 9)
Extra Turning (level 12)
Extra Turning (level 15)
Extra Turning (level 18)
Extra Turning (that one prestige class)
Bonus Domain: Mysticism (contemplative)
Extra Turning (Night Stick)

You get 3 (cleric) +11 (charisma) + 9x4 turning attempts per day, and only need 5 to persist a spell. That's 10, without stacking a 4k gp magic item.

Gnaeus
2009-11-03, 06:58 PM
Umm, I think you are a little confused here.


Tier 3: Balanced enough to have very few game breakers, but powerful enough to be fun. Flexible, and not likely to be screwed except in extreme circumstances or through poor player choices. Requires maximum optimization to truly break the game. May seem broken when moderately optimized and compared to sub-optimal characters or lower-tiered classes. Very difficult to actually make these characters seem underpowered.

Tier 2: Capable of defying every major rule in the game through some means. Capable of shattering game balance with optimization or good tactical thought. Can be horrifically crippled by poor choices. Proper selection of abilities may make them seem invulnerable.

Tier 1: Capable of everything the lower tiered classes are capable of, and then some. Inherently broken due to support and sheer number of options. Possible to cripple with poor choices, but even light optimization shatters any opposition they may face that isn't likewise in power. Full optimization can render these characters nigh invulnerable.

Tier 0: Doesn't technically exist, but it a measure of optimization. Any class can potentially hit this level (Pun-Pun), but higher Tier classes can do similar things (Echoing Shadow Miracle, Arcane Fusion spam, Planar Shepherd, etc). Guaranteed to break campaigns, even if all players are at the same or similar level. Impossible to challenge.

I am not actually sure that you said much that I didn't say. What was it that I said that you disagreed with?

Yukitsu
2009-11-03, 06:58 PM
It takes adjustment +1 to persist a spell. Persist is a +6 adjustment metamagic. I'm not positive that the reducers can actually be applied to DMM, as it's a seperate mechanic.

Also, that build would in practice, be somewhat lame.

sofawall
2009-11-03, 07:16 PM
Stuff:
Extend (from domain)
Extra Turning (domain)
Extra Turning (human bonus)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Persist (level 1)
DMM (level 3)
Easy Metamagic (level 6)
Practical Metamagic (level 9)
Extra Turning (level 12)
Extra Turning (level 15)
Extra Turning (level 18)
Extra Turning (that one prestige class)
Bonus Domain: Mysticism (contemplative)
Extra Turning (Night Stick)

You get 3 (cleric) +11 (charisma) + 9x4 turning attempts per day, and only need 5 to persist a spell. That's 10, without stacking a 4k gp magic item.

Nice use of Metamagic Reducers, although I typically use the 4k magic item, myself.


It takes adjustment +1 to persist a spell. Persist is a +6 adjustment metamagic.

And metamagic reducers reduce this to 5.

Yukitsu
2009-11-03, 07:19 PM
I'm not positive that they apply. Most say they reduce the adjustment by 1, but DMM is a seperate metamagic feat that has no adjustment.

Akal Saris
2009-11-03, 07:32 PM
Yeah, I don't see where Gnaeus was wrong about anything. Here's the link to the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0), by the way, since it is being discussed so heavily.

It's important to remember that the tier system is based quite heavily on JaronK's perceptions of where classes fit into tiers - the list assumes core+1-2 more "logical" sources, which basically means whatever JaronK feels is appropriate - so a wizard with celerity is probably in, and factotums abusing iajutsu focus is in because JaronK loves factotums (so do I :smallbiggrin:), but a loredrake kobold sorcerer or a healer with spontaneous spells from the BoED isn't considered when placing a class within the list.

It's a great resource and my opinion largely coincides with JaronK's, but it's taken on more significance and carries more weight than intended or healthy. There are 2-3 other tier lists by other CO regulars that tried to define things differently than the original thread (mostly due to personal differences between those authors and JaronK), not to mention a list of arguments on tier placement that is two threads long by now. In my opinion, there is also way too much emphasis on tiers 1 and 2 - JaronK himself prefers T3 games, while tiers 1 and 2 are his catch-all for classes that he believes beat game mechanics too easily.

In the case of the cleric, JaronK puts it so high up because it has access to Genesis, Miracle, Gate, and other broken spells, in addition to filling the healer/tank/support role and having huge versatility in utility spells (especially if it wants to crib spells from the wizard spell list with its domain or Anyspell). For JaronK, something is broken generally when you can prepare it days in advance (Explosive Runes, Planar Binding, etc), or is too versatile/powerful (Genesis, Miracle, Gate, Shapechange, PAO). DMM (Persist) falls into both the first and second categories, and is basically the cherry on top of the chocolate fudge sundae that is the cleric class.

sofawall
2009-11-03, 07:32 PM
So apply them to DMM? AFB, so I cannot check the relevant wording.

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 07:42 PM
As far as I can tell neither would stack, since easy applies when you're preparing or casting the spell and practical only applies to spontaneous spells. DMM requires you to spend a free action and then spend turn attempts equal to the level adjustment of the feat +1 and then you apply the metamagic to a spell that you've already memorized. You're neither preparing the spell with the metamagic nor casting it directly yet.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-03, 07:44 PM
Putting up 10 buffs with Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) will require 70 turn undead attempts. If you can get 10 all-day buffs that way, that's a ridiculous amount of power, and your DM needs some remedial education.

Since your basis for argument is off in Never-Never Land, I'll stop now.

To be blunt: You need to be less overconfident in your position.

HCL
2009-11-03, 07:56 PM
Lets play find good cleric spells. I will start with level 1

1st:
Rhino's Rush (Wrath Domain)
Grease (Slime domain)
Faith Healing
Lesser Vigor
Light of Lunia
Divine Favor
Sleep (Dream)
Expeditious Retreat (Celerity)
Shield of Faith
Entropic Shield (Luck)
Entangle (Plant)
Silent Image (Gnome or Illusion I forget which)
Prot from Alignment (Any one will do, it hedges out mind control regardless of which one you use)
Doom

Akal Saris
2009-11-03, 07:58 PM
I'll add Enlarge Person from the Str domain to that list, as well as Resurgence from the SpC

HCL
2009-11-03, 08:01 PM
I'll add Enlarge Person from the Str domain to that list, as well as Resurgence from the SpC

Thanks for that. I think updraft also is a great spell once you get some caster levels (or can find a creative way to use it, *cough* Raptoran *cough*)

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 08:51 PM
To be blunt: You need to be less overconfident in your position.
I don't think so. Someone who's devoted their entire character development to persisting buff spells is just crying out to be rudely awakened by their DM sending debuffers at them. It takes much less in the way of resources to get good at dispelling. And with all their buffs gone, what are they going to do?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:54 PM
I don't think so. Someone who's devoted their entire character development to persisting buff spells is just crying out to be rudely awakened by their DM sending debuffers at them. It takes much less in the way of resources to get good at dispelling. And with all their buffs gone, what are they going to do?

Expend the 60 other spell-slots they have like any other cleric would?

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 10:09 PM
Stuff:
Extend (from domain)
Extra Turning (domain)
Extra Turning (human bonus)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Extra Turning (Flaw)
Persist (level 1)
DMM (level 3)
Easy Metamagic (level 6)
Practical Metamagic (level 9)
Extra Turning (level 12)
Extra Turning (level 15)
Extra Turning (level 18)
Extra Turning (that one prestige class)
Bonus Domain: Mysticism (contemplative)
Extra Turning (Night Stick)

You get 3 (cleric) +11 (charisma) + 9x4 turning attempts per day, and only need 5 to persist a spell. That's 10, without stacking a 4k gp magic item.
No, that's not right. Practical Metamagic won't work for you.
Prerequisites: Dragonblood subtype, Spellcraft 8 ranks, any metamagic feat, ability to spontaneously cast 3rd-level spells.
Benefit: Choose a metamagic feat you know. When applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell uses a spell slot one level lower Clerics aren't spontaneous casters except for Cure spells, and those fail the Persistent Spell requirement twice: instantaneous, and not personal/fixed range.

If by "that one prestige class" you mean the Master of Shrouds, you'll lose one spellcasting level to get Extra Turning.

Granted Power (Su): Once per day, you can use a free action to channel your deity's power to grant yourself a luck bonus on your saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum +1). The effect lasts for 1 round per cleric level. Don't see how that helps. You can't select Undeath domain more than once, and I don't know of another domain that grants Extra Turning.

You'll be able to persist 8 spells with this build. Also by putting your best stat and using all your ability increments on Charisma you'll sacrifice spellcasting power, as all your DCs are based on Wisdom.

Expend the 60 other spell-slots they have like any other cleric would? Seems unlikely, as "any other cleric" would have their best stat in Wisdom instead of Charisma. They're unlikely to have 60 non-orison spell slots before persisting 8 or so spells, so they'd be down at least a dozen spells compared to a Cleric with a high Wisdom. That Cleric also would have selected domains and feats that could be used for other things. This one trick pony build can get general use from Extend Spell, and that's it. (OK, so they could also persist 1st-3rd level spells by using up their few 6th-9th level slots. I don't see much upside for that.)

Talya
2009-11-03, 11:32 PM
Tier 1.

DMM is funny simply because it puts a cleric on par (or better) than a fighter in melee alone, but really, they shouldn't be meleeing at that level any more than a wizard should pull out the Tenser's Transformation and go to town. Bashing stuff with a hammer just doesn't hold a candle to doing what makes these classes so powerful to start with: Casting Spells. DMM let's a cleric pretend to be a fighter without any of the drawbacks associated with being a fighter...save one: they're still meleeing.

Myrmex
2009-11-04, 02:20 AM
No, that's not right.

I meant to put silverbrow human. Lose skill points, gain dragonblood subtype.


Practical Metamagic won't work for you. Clerics aren't spontaneous casters except for Cure spells, and those fail the Persistent Spell requirement twice: instantaneous, and not personal/fixed range.

You're right, it doesn't work.


If by "that one prestige class" you mean the Master of Shrouds, you'll lose one spellcasting level to get Extra Turning.

Naah, there's a different one.


Don't see how that helps. You can't select Undeath domain more than once, and I don't know of another domain that grants Extra Turning.

Mysticism gives you the Celestial template, which you persist, which ups your charisma score by 4, giving you 2 more turn attempts.


You'll be able to persist 8 spells with this build. Also by putting your best stat and using all your ability increments on Charisma you'll sacrifice spellcasting power, as all your DCs are based on Wisdom.

I got 32 with a 16 in charisma.
+1 age, +6 item, +5 tome, +4 spell for 32 total. You can drop the tome down to +3, the item to +4, or your base to 14 if you go with a race with a race with cha bonus (since practical metamagic doesn't help us).

Curmudgeon
2009-11-04, 02:50 AM
Mysticism gives you the Celestial template, which you persist, which ups your charisma score by 4, giving you 2 more turn attempts.
You're confused. Check page 277 of Spell Compendium. The Mysticism domain gives only the benefits I quoted previously. There's no template, and no boost to Charisma unless it's below 11 and then only for the purpose of making saving throws.

Myrmex
2009-11-04, 02:51 AM
You're confused. Check page 277 of Spell Compendium. The Mysticism domain gives only the benefits I quoted previously. There's no template, and no boost to Charisma unless it's below 11 and then only for the purpose of making saving throws.

Look at the ninth level domain spell it has.

[edit]
Oh, that spell is also on the general cleric list. No need for the mysticism domain after all. My apologies.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-04, 02:55 AM
To be blunt: You need to be less overconfident in your position.

Overconfidence is only a flaw when you're wrong.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-04, 02:58 AM
Look at the ninth level domain spell it has.

[edit]
Oh, that spell is also on the general cleric list. No need for the mysticism domain after all. My apologies.

This spell functions like lesser visage of the deity, except that you take on many qualities of a half-celestial or half-fiendish creature.
...
You gain the following bonuses to your ability scores: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma. Seems pretty clear to me that Visage of the Deity, Greater and Visage of the Deity, Lesser are both providing enhancement bonuses to Charisma, so they don't stack with enhancement bonuses from items.

Tanaric
2009-11-04, 03:00 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, Curmudgeon, but have you considered scaling back on the "No. You're wrong. Here's why." style of posting? The rampant bolding implies strong speech, which most people take the wrong way. Italics are all fine and good, but bolding things makes people defensive, in my experience.

I get the feeling you'd sway more opinions (your being correct on whichever situation is at hand aside) if you weren't quite so... forceful.

Myrmex
2009-11-04, 03:06 AM
Seems pretty clear to me that Visage of the Deity, Greater and Visage of the Deity, Lesser are both providing enhancement bonuses to Charisma, so they don't stack with enhancement bonuses from items.

Enhancement bonuses aren't a quality of a half-celestial, though. Also note that none of the other bonuses listed are typed.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-04, 03:20 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, Curmudgeon, but have you considered scaling back on the "No. You're wrong. Here's why." style of posting? The rampant bolding implies strong speech, which most people take the wrong way.
Really? I just took it as: if you're skimming, bold means look here first. And as they told me on my high school newspaper: don't bury the lead. Start with the short version ("That's wrong; here's why") and then add details.

I guess many things come down to matters of preference. It bugs me quite a lot when someone regularly quotes an entire message before responding to various bits of it, rather than taking the time to interleave original points and responses. But I don't complain about it.

grautry
2009-11-04, 05:18 AM
A long time ago I started a thread on the viability of a DMM Persist Cleric with non-stacking nightsticks.

Opinions generally ranged from "it'll still be awesometastic" to "it'll be a one trick pony"/"why waste your time replicating a fighter when you're a cleric?".

The point is - it's a viable build. Not as potent as Nightstick stacking Cleric, but it's very viable option.

But really, the lack of Nightsticks+DMM Persist(or total lack of DMM Persist) won't drop the Cleric a tier. It's a fantastic, potentially gamebreaking, class even without it. It's just that when you include DMM Persist, Clerics gain several new and interesting ways to break the game.

It's kind of like the difference between being able to blow up Europe and being able to blow up Asia. Sure, Asia is way bigger, but either way, you can blow up a continent.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-04, 05:32 AM
IIRC, I don't believe DMM and metamagic reducers stack.

Metamagic reducers only lower the cost of the feat when applying metamagic to a spell. It does not alter the base cost of the metamagic.

DMM looks at the metamagic cost, pays it in turn attempts +1, and then applies it for free. When DMM's cost is paid, the Metamagic is not being applied to a spell. Therefore the metamagic cost reducers do not apply.

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-04, 06:00 AM
Without DMM(Persist) or even DMM at all, the Cleric just builds as if he were a caster.

Pick things like Command, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person/Monster, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Summon Monter III->IX, etc, etc. They're still replacing the fighter, except now they're replacing him with a spell(Giant Vermin! Blindness!) instead of replacing him physically. Nothing actually changes their tier.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-04, 06:15 AM
Agreed. DMM is an effective and fun way to build a cleric. I personally love using DMM Extend with my buff specialists... Another good one is DMM Quicken. Both make clerics quite powerful.

But they're not the only way. Built as a straightforward SoD character with the ability to heal in a pinch, a cleric is quite effective.

One of my personal favorite spells is Downdraft. Creatures that fly low for strafing runs get grounded hard. Fail the save, drop 100 feet. Pass it, drop 50. Either way, with good use, in most areas, you can faceplant someone on the ground for the fighter/druid/whoever to deal with.

katans
2009-11-04, 06:15 AM
A non-DMM cleric still gets his long duration buffs (eventually pimped with Extend Spell), his spellcasting, and actually useful feats instead of just spamming Extra Turning. Things like Leadership, Divine Spell Power, Quicken Spell, prereqs for a Prestige class... that's still a damn useful and powerful character we have here, with exactly the same amount of broken options as before. So still Tier 1.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-04, 06:50 AM
A charisma based character with divine spell power, a couple items, and 1-2 more feats can neuter most encounters after level 13.

Holy Word/Dictum at caster level 23-25 is somewhat painful.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 10:09 AM
I am not actually sure that you said much that I didn't say. What was it that I said that you disagreed with?

Tier 1's copy Tier 2's, and Tier 2's can copy everyone below them, not just Tier 3's. Tier 3's are not capable of copying multiple roles at once, the most they can get is two (trying to make a Beguiler a Gish, for example, limits their skill monkey abilities).

Tier 1's are capable of doing everything on a daily notice or less. Tier 2's are capable of doing everything if they plan out their builds right. Tier 3's are balanced and very difficult to screw over. Tier 4's are slightly underpowered and capable of being screwed in some circumstances, but make up for it by being really good at what they do. Tier 5's are very underpowered, and require high optimization to make them competent (and they get screwed over by minor changes in their ideal situation). Tier 6's are Tier 5 wannabes, but failed to meet even that due to design flaws.

Gnaeus
2009-11-04, 05:17 PM
You're right, Sinfire, I do disagree with you.

As Akal correctly pointed out, JaronK was a lot less concerned about versatility than about the ability for the top 3 tiers to break the game (especially with tricks like spells cast days beforehand). His argument was something like...
Tier 3s can break the game with planning, but DMs can stop them easily.
Tier 2s can break the game by accident by picking broken spells.
Tier 1s are likely to break the game in different ways every day, in ways not easily predictable by the DM.

My point was, that the top 3 tiers are not really about power level. The spells a Beguiler or Dread Necro casts are not weaker than sorc/Wiz spells. With minimal optimization (Arcane disciple or a decent prestige class), Beguilers or Dread Necros can be more powerful than a sorcerer. They know more spells, have better class bases and actual class abilities. What they lack is the sorcerer's ability to hit level 17 and pick Gate randomly off their class list and break the game, or the Tier 1 ability to shift their breakage from day to day.