PDA

View Full Version : [4E] Worst epic destiny capstone?



Aron Times
2009-11-03, 06:30 PM
Not all epic destiny capstones were made equal. Some, like the Demigod's Divine Miracle, are OVER 9000, while others... Well, here's a list of those that don't make the cut:

1. Avatar of Death


Harbinger of Demise (30th level): Enemies that end their turn adjacent to you and have 25 hit points or fewer die.

I can kill people within a 5-ft. radius. Oh wait, it's only for those with 25 or fewer HP, who would die from a single at-will attack from a level 30 character. :smallmad:

2. Avatar of War


Lord of War (30th level): Your first attack of each encounter that hits deals 25 extra damage.

Not as bad as Harbinger of Demise, but really? My capstone lets me deal the damage of an at-will once per encounter? And that's it? :smallconfused:

3. Mythic Sovereign


Sword of Kings (30th level): Choose one encounter power with the weapon keyword that you know. When you use that power, it is not expended unless you miss all targets.

Not bad, and strictly better than Practiced Reliability (which only works on single-target martial encounter powers), but for a capstone, I expect much better than something slightly better than a feat.

4. Elf High Mage


Empowered by Life (30th level): When you have no healing surges left, you can choose to use the tension of the boundary between your life and your death to power your magic. You can use an encounter power you have already expended or gain a +4 bonus to any attack roll with a spell. At the end of your turn after doing either, you lose hit points equal to one-quarter your maximum hit points. You can use a daily power you have already expended or turn a hit with a spell into a critical hit. At the end of your turn after doing either, you lose hit points equal to one-half your maximum hit points. You can do more than one of these in a single turn.

Let me get this straight. Once per turn, when I'm about to die, I can die faster? :smalleek:

5. Harbinger of Doom


Doom's Reward (30th level): Whenever you make an attack and miss every target, you gain temporary hit points equal to one-half your level.

15 temporary HP for whiffing an attack? A bit underwhelming for my level 30 real ultimate power.

Since the Compendium doesn't have Primal Power yet, these are all I can find. Discuss.

TMZ_Cinoros
2009-11-03, 06:43 PM
6. Dispossessed Chapmion

Driven by Duty (30th level): The first time you drop to 0 hit points or fewer after an extended rest, you can spend a healing surge as an immediate interrupt. Any ally who can see you regains 2d6 hit points. Any hit points in excess of an ally's maximum number of hit points become temporary hit points.

So, once a day when you drop to 0, you can spend a healing surge to heal all of your allies a little bit. Of course, you need to have an immediate interrupt available. I don't know about you guys, but I am usually using my immediate interrupts to prevent myself from dying.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-03, 06:49 PM
From the Player's Handbook: trickster's disposition.

Once per day, you get to change one of the DM's rolls to a one. In essence, you make somebody miss on an attack, once. That's only slightly more powerful than the ability every halfling gets at level one...

cupkeyk
2009-11-03, 07:26 PM
My issue is that you are looking at the capstone feature, which cannot possibly dictate how good or bad an ED is. I can't vouch for most of these but Elf High Mage is TOP TIER. You can create magic items at half the price three levels before the Lorekeeper can. Fluff-wise you can easily convince your dm that an elf high mage would have access to a fey line intersection and now you can create magic items at a quarter of the cost. If for some odd reason taht your DM lets you use a FR ED in an Eberron campaign and you have the mark of making and master crafter feats, you are now making cheap AND high level items.

You have to weigh all of an ED's features and powers before saying that it sucks.

EDIT: did the title of this thread change while I was typing?

Dixieboy
2009-11-03, 08:18 PM
Nay, nay it did not.

Anyway: The Elven mage doesn't seem so bad.
One quarter your hp (Current I assume) in order to use a daily again.
The "You have to be out of healing surges" clause blows, but i think that's there for balance.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-11-03, 08:23 PM
1. Avatar of Death


Harbinger of Demise (30th level): Enemies that end their turn adjacent to you and have 25 hit points or fewer die.

I can kill people within a 5-ft. radius. Oh wait, it's only for those with 25 or fewer HP, who would die from a single at-will attack from a level 30 character. :smallmad:

What about minions? This dude could mop the floor with those puppies. Although I don't remember offhand what this is an ED for.

Grynning
2009-11-03, 08:25 PM
Nay, nay it did not.

Anyway: The Elven mage doesn't seem so bad.
One quarter your hp (Current I assume) in order to use a daily again.
The "You have to be out of healing surges" clause blows, but i think that's there for balance.

No. It takes half of your maximum hp to use a daily again. That's pretty terrible.


What about minions? This dude could mop the floor with those puppies. Although I don't remember offhand what this is an ED for.

You can mop the floor with minions anyways if you're level 30. There are so many better ways to do cheap and easy AoE damage.

I do agree with cupkeyk though. Capstone is hardly a statement on the effectiveness of an ED.

Moff Chumley
2009-11-03, 08:33 PM
Agreed. Although it is extremely disappointing for the ONLY ability you get at level 30 to suck...

dragoonsgone
2009-11-03, 09:12 PM
From the Player's Handbook: trickster's disposition.

Once per day, you get to change one of the DM's rolls to a one. In essence, you make somebody miss on an attack, once. That's only slightly more powerful than the ability every halfling gets at level one...

I figure you would use it on a save not an attack roll. Not the greatest, but making sure the baddie is stunlocked 1 more round ain't horrible.

Aron Times
2009-11-03, 09:38 PM
The Deadly Trickster's capstone can force the solo BBEG to roll a 1 on initiative, basically granting the party an extra turn against him.

Anyway, I know that judging an epic destiny by its capstone doesn't do it justice, but the point of this thread is to talk about underwhelming capstones. For example, the Avatar of War actually gets pretty cool abilities; it's just that his capstone sucks.

Starsinger
2009-11-03, 10:36 PM
6. Dispossessed Chapmion

Driven by Duty (30th level): The first time you drop to 0 hit points or fewer after an extended rest, you can spend a healing surge as an immediate interrupt. Any ally who can see you regains 2d6 hit points. Any hit points in excess of an ally's maximum number of hit points become temporary hit points.

So, once a day when you drop to 0, you can spend a healing surge to heal all of your allies a little bit. Of course, you need to have an immediate interrupt available. I don't know about you guys, but I am usually using my immediate interrupts to prevent myself from dying.

When you spend a healing surge, you gain 1/4 of your health. Pretty sure precedent is that it has to say you don't regain HP, like Lay on Hands.

Asbestos
2009-11-03, 10:40 PM
What about minions? This dude could mop the floor with those puppies. Although I don't remember offhand what this is an ED for.

Declare a city of chumps your 'Enemy' ... proceed to walk through it.

Thajocoth
2009-11-03, 11:04 PM
4. Elf High Mage


Empowered by Life (30th level): When you have no healing surges left, you can choose to use the tension of the boundary between your life and your death to power your magic. You can use an encounter power you have already expended or gain a +4 bonus to any attack roll with a spell. At the end of your turn after doing either, you lose hit points equal to one-quarter your maximum hit points. You can use a daily power you have already expended or turn a hit with a spell into a critical hit. At the end of your turn after doing either, you lose hit points equal to one-half your maximum hit points. You can do more than one of these in a single turn.

Let me get this straight. Once per turn, when I'm about to die, I can die faster? :smalleek:

No no... You can die faster multiple times per round. Which would kill you even faster! So lets say you have no surges, but you're at maxhp and have an action point:
Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Action point: Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Expended Move action Daily Utility
Expended Minor action Daily Utility

Then, at the end of your turn, you'll be a few thousand hp into the negatives and promptly die. But at least you went out dealing immense damage... Perhaps it was awesome enough for the party to even Raise Dead you!

AgentPaper
2009-11-03, 11:08 PM
No no... You can die faster multiple times per round. Which would kill you even faster! So lets say you have no surges, but you're at maxhp and have an action point:
Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Action point: Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Expended Move action Daily Utility
Expended Minor action Daily Utility

Then, at the end of your turn, you'll be a few thousand hp into the negatives and promptly die. But at least you went out dealing immense damage... Perhaps it was awesome enough for the party to even Raise Dead you!

Or you can come back to life via a variety of items. And you don't use this when you're at full HP, you use it when you're close to dying anyways. You could even come out ahead in HP if you're already below 1/4 of your max HP or so.

MCerberus
2009-11-03, 11:14 PM
The Deadly Trickster's capstone can force the solo BBEG to roll a 1 on initiative, basically granting the party an extra turn against him.

Anyway, I know that judging an epic destiny by its capstone doesn't do it justice, but the point of this thread is to talk about underwhelming capstones. For example, the Avatar of War actually gets pretty cool abilities; it's just that his capstone sucks.

I agree with this, the epic destinies get different things and aren't meant to have uniformly good stuff at x level. Compare a couple of PHB level 26 utilities, Archmage and Dreadly Trickster. The former let's you get one power back as a standard action. The latter is an extended rest as a minor action. Taking in only the capstone is a rather narrow view of the ED, especially since you can accidentally overlook how it gels with other ED features.

Mando Knight
2009-11-03, 11:17 PM
Or you can come back to life via a variety of items.

Such as the Cloak of the Phoenix. If you're already out of healing surges, it's a free full heal whenever you drop to 0 HP.

Jothki
2009-11-04, 12:03 AM
Is there anything that restricts the Deadly Trickster's capstone to combat rolls? If your DM is particularly dice-happy, I'd think that you could possibly seriously warp the plot that way.

Lunix Vandal
2009-11-04, 02:38 AM
No no... You can die faster multiple times per round. Which would kill you even faster! So lets say you have no surges, but you're at maxhp and have an action point:
Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Action point: Expended Daily, Enlarge it, turn all the hits into crits
Expended Move action Daily Utility
Expended Minor action Daily Utility

Then, at the end of your turn, you'll be a few thousand hp into the negatives and promptly die. But at least you went out dealing immense damage... Perhaps it was awesome enough for the party to even Raise Dead you!Or you do it every single round for entire combats at a time in the presence of the party's Legendary General TacLord, who lets you stay alive and conscious indefinitely as long as he does, even if you drop into hundreds thousands hundreds of thousands of negative hit points. :smallbiggrin:

And if you see he's about to go down, just Quick Draw and down one of the 50-gold Heroic-tier healing potions. Bang, you're back up in positive HP, and thus don't get instantly splattered (into ludicrous gibs!) when he falls. It's only one HP (so you're probably still pretty vulnerable), but still.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-04, 03:54 AM
Is there anything that restricts the Deadly Trickster's capstone to combat rolls? If your DM is particularly dice-happy, I'd think that you could possibly seriously warp the plot that way.

If your DM actually bases his plot on d20 rolls, then that would be hilarious.

I agree that you can't judge an ED on its capstone, but then this thread is about comparing capstones, not comparing EDs. On the one hand, the capstone doesn't matter much since you'll be playing with it for only two or three sessions anyway before the character retires permanently; on the other hand, since it the capstone exists only to make characters "go out" with a bang, it had better be flashy and memorable.

Aron Times
2009-11-04, 01:10 PM
If your DM actually bases his plot on d20 rolls, then that would be hilarious.

I agree that you can't judge an ED on its capstone, but then this thread is about comparing capstones, not comparing EDs. On the one hand, the capstone doesn't matter much since you'll be playing with it for only two or three sessions anyway before the character retires permanently; on the other hand, since it the capstone exists only to make characters "go out" with a bang, it had better be flashy and memorable.
Thank you for pointing this out. The point of an epic destiny capstone is for the character to go out with a bang, and an underwhelming capstone is just anticlimactic.

Mando Knight
2009-11-04, 01:19 PM
And if you see he's about to go down, just Quick Draw and down one of the 50-gold Heroic-tier healing potions. Bang, you're back up in positive HP, and thus don't get instantly splattered (into ludicrous gibs!) when he falls. It's only one HP (so you're probably still pretty vulnerable), but still.

You need to have a Healing Surge in order to use any of the healing potions. Having access to a potion or power that grants regeneration and spending your last HS on that might work, though.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-04, 01:30 PM
You need to have a Healing Surge in order to use any of the healing potions. Having access to a potion or power that grants regeneration and spending your last HS on that might work, though.

Doesn't regeneration stop working when you're below zero HP?

Hzurr
2009-11-04, 02:44 PM
Doesn't regeneration stop working when you're below zero HP?

Yes it does, much to the frustration of my players.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-04, 03:44 PM
Yes it does, much to the frustration of my players.

DAMN YOU, HZURR!

On the other hand, most versions of regeneration start working again once you're positive.


Huh. I wonder what level cleric power it would be that would heal 1 point to everyone within a 20 burst?

Shadow_Elf
2009-11-04, 04:34 PM
With the elf high mage destiny, is you've got a Swordmage Demigod with Unicorn's Touch, they should be able to keep ya alive pretty well with the permanent free hps, provided you don't start slashing your wrists before they get their loop going.

And I am pretty sure that healing pots heal 1 HP (from 0) to a person utterly lacking in surges.

ocato
2009-11-04, 04:43 PM
There certainly are still methods to heal someone without surges. Lay on Hands and Artificer Infusions come to mind.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-04, 04:52 PM
There certainly are still methods to heal someone without surges. Lay on Hands and Artificer Infusions come to mind.

Though artificers are probably the worst healers of the Leaders. Sure, they don't use healing surges, but they also are 2/day instead of 2/encounter.

DSCrankshaw
2009-11-04, 05:00 PM
Though artificers are probably the worst healers of the Leaders. Sure, they don't use healing surges, but they also are 2/day instead of 2/encounter.

That's not how it works. They get 2 at the start of the day, but they can refresh their supply every short rest, as long as someone contributes surges. In other words, they let surges become more of a party pool (so the person with the most leftover surges can contribute to the one with the least), and add 2 extra surges to the pool each day.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-04, 05:04 PM
That's not how it works. They get 2 at the start of the day, but they can refresh their supply every short rest, as long as someone contributes surges. In other words, they let surges become more of a party pool (so the person with the most leftover surges can contribute to the one with the least), and add 2 extra surges to the pool each day.

Ah, ok. Our Artificer was trying to go with "I can do this all day, without surges", and so we nipped it in the bud, but I didn't read the rest too closely.

Hzurr
2009-11-04, 06:20 PM
Ah, ok. Our Artificer was trying to go with "I can do this all day, without surges", and so we nipped it in the bud, but I didn't read the rest too closely.

Yeah... the artificer sometimes has problems with reading the fine print (and understand what things are balanced, or overpowered, or underpowered, or...useful...)

Sebastian
2009-11-04, 06:32 PM
What about minions? This dude could mop the floor with those puppies. Although I don't remember offhand what this is an ED for.

As it is written it would not work like that. Technically minions don't have 1 hp, they die after 1 successful hit, if you have an attack that deal 10000000 hp on a miss it would not kill a minion, they don't have "less than 25hp", they don't have HPs, like, at all.

Arbitrarity
2009-11-04, 06:35 PM
Uh, yes they do. They just don't take damage on a miss.

Boci
2009-11-04, 06:36 PM
Uh, yes they do. They just don't take damage on a miss.

There a gray area there, since even with temporary hitpoint a minnion is still killed on a successful hit, even if they gained 10 temporary hp and the attack only deals 8 damage.

Sebastian
2009-11-04, 06:37 PM
Or you do it every single round for entire combats at a time in the presence of the party's Legendary General TacLord, who lets you stay alive and conscious indefinitely as long as he does, even if you drop into hundreds thousands hundreds of thousands of negative hit points. :smallbiggrin:

And if you see he's about to go down, just Quick Draw and down one of the 50-gold Heroic-tier healing potions. Bang, you're back up in positive HP, and thus don't get instantly splattered (into ludicrous gibs!) when he falls. It's only one HP (so you're probably still pretty vulnerable), but still.

Potions still need healing surges to work, luckily the new books have many new way to heal without healing surges, or you just need one of the powers that give temp hp to go back to the positive (for a little while, at least, but then you'd go to zero so it would still be good.)

Hashmir
2009-11-04, 06:56 PM
There a gray area there, since even with temporary hitpoint a minnion is still killed on a successful hit, even if they gained 10 temporary hp and the attack only deals 8 damage.

Can't it be both? They can have 1 hit point, but their standard death condition is getting hit. So something that kills creatures with 1 hit point would kill them, but some theoretical ability that managed to deal damage without "hitting" them would leave them alive.

Boci
2009-11-04, 07:06 PM
Can't it be both? They can have 1 hit point, but their standard death condition is getting hit. So something that kills creatures with 1 hit point would kill them, but some theoretical ability that managed to deal damage without "hitting" them would leave them alive.

yes it can. But it might not be so. Hence the gray area.

Hashmir
2009-11-04, 07:11 PM
yes it can. But it might not be so. Hence the gray area.

Yeah, I can see how they should make that clearer. Still, without an errata, don't they explicitly have 1 hp by RAW?

Nightson
2009-11-04, 08:45 PM
A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of
damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that
doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s
divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion.
If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals
damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage.
-DMG pg. 55

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 04:36 AM
As it is written it would not work like that. Technically minions don't have 1 hp, they die after 1 successful hit, if you have an attack that deal 10000000 hp on a miss it would not kill a minion, they don't have "less than 25hp", they don't have HPs, like, at all.
No, technically minions do have 1 HP, says so in the monster manual. Opinions differ as to whether that quote on DMG page 55 is a rule, or a clarification (that is, if a minion somehow ends up with 10 temporary hit points, and takes eight damage, then some people argue that it dies, and some that it doesn't).


you just need one of the powers that give temp hp to go back to the positive (for a little while, at least, but then you'd go to zero so it would still be good.)
I'm reasonably sure that getting temp HP while in the negatives doesn't stop you from being dying and unconscious, since those conditions trigger off your actual HP, not your temporary. In other words, the many abilities that grant THP to an ally do not get the ally back up if he's down.

Indon
2009-11-05, 08:11 AM
3. Mythic Sovereign


Sword of Kings (30th level): Choose one encounter power with the weapon keyword that you know. When you use that power, it is not expended unless you miss all targets.

Not bad, and strictly better than Practiced Reliability (which only works on single-target martial encounter powers), but for a capstone, I expect much better than something slightly better than a feat.
How is this not really good? I mean, aren't there fairly good AoE encounter powers for martial classes?

With this capstone, you could reasonably have just one encounter AoE power and rely on it for AoE usage. (and I guess retrain one of your other AoE powers at level 30 to gain a different benefit).

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 08:20 AM
How is this not really good? I mean, aren't there fairly good AoE encounter powers for martial classes?
The point is that with an AoE power, you are fairly unlikely to miss all of the targets - whereas with a non-AoE power, the aforementioned feat is easier to obtain.

Indon
2009-11-05, 08:24 AM
The point is that with an AoE power, you are fairly unlikely to miss all of the targets - whereas with a non-AoE power, the aforementioned feat is easier to obtain.

Well, yes, that's because the effect's so much more powerful with an AoE power.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-05, 08:25 AM
The point is that with an AoE power, you are fairly unlikely to miss all of the targets - whereas with a non-AoE power, the aforementioned feat is easier to obtain.

Unless he typed it wrong, that makes it awesome, because the power only expends itself when you miss all those targets, which as you pointed out, is very unlikely - so the power becomes almost at-will. As long as you hit at least one of your targets, you can use it again next round.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 08:34 AM
Unless he typed it wrong, that makes it awesome, because the power only expends itself when you miss all those targets, which as you pointed out, is very unlikely - so the power becomes almost at-will. As long as you hit at least one of your targets, you can use it again next round.

Ah, I see, I'd been reading it backwards. I don't know any good area effect encounter powers with the weapon keyword off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's some good combos here.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-05, 08:41 AM
Ah, I see, I'd been reading it backwards. I don't know any good area effect encounter powers with the weapon keyword off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's some good combos here.

Well, Swordmage must have some, if nothing else.

Trixie
2009-11-05, 10:40 AM
This list is very nice... but how often (if at all) do you simply reach these capstones - in other words, is there even a point to argue that some might be worse? :smallconfused:

Aron Times
2009-11-05, 10:45 AM
The point I'm trying to make is that the difficulty of getting to level 30 demands an appropriate reward. For most epic destinies, the reward (the capstone) is well worth the wait. For those on this list, not so much.

Aron Times
2009-11-05, 10:48 AM
I was wrong about the Mythic Sovereign. I thought it meant that the power would become Reliable, when really it would become a virtual at-will. I read the ability description backwards.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 11:07 AM
This list is very nice... but how often (if at all) do you simply reach these capstones
At least in my area, most campaigns start at level one, and fizzle out somewhere in late heroics. No, that's not statistically sound, but I do believe that the overwhelming majority of campaigns (or sessions) never make it to epic tier, and certainly not to level 30.

But then, it's the internet :smallsmile: debating unlikely situations is what we do for a living.

Starsinger
2009-11-05, 11:09 AM
Well, Swordmage must have some, if nothing else.

But Swordmages have a swordmage only version that's better. "Pick a Swordmage encounter power, that becomes at-will."

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-05, 11:30 AM
But Swordmages have a swordmage only version that's better. "Pick a Swordmage encounter power, that becomes at-will."

Man I love Swordmages.