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Zeta Kai
2009-11-03, 07:36 PM
Which base class do you think has the best capstone (IE 20th level) ability?

Which prestige class do you think has the best capstone (IE last level) ability?

Discuss.

I, for one, vote for the Beguiler & the Dragon Disciple. Those are some pretty cool abilities, ones that aren't just incremental bonuses to existing class features.

Also, the Rogue & the Green Star Adept are banned from this discussion. May Candle Jack take you if you mentio

arguskos
2009-11-03, 07:38 PM
Base Class: Knight. Bar freakin' none.

Prestige Class: Oh dear. So many choices. I can't honestly pick just one. I'll go with... Swiftblade, personally.

Frosty
2009-11-03, 07:38 PM
For base class, the Knight has one of the best capstone abilities. Seriously. You get to ignore death by HP damage for a LONG time. Enough for your cleric to patch you up.

EDIT: NINJA'ED!

Fax Celestis
2009-11-03, 07:38 PM
Can I count homebrew? <_<

Gralamin
2009-11-03, 07:39 PM
Warblade. Two stances at once? Yes please.

deuxhero
2009-11-03, 07:41 PM
Hey, rogue got an actual capstone (not that great, something like decreased trap disabling times , but passable).

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 07:48 PM
I count the factotum's 19th level ability as their capstone.

Any three Ex abilities from any 15th level base class, for one minute each! Heck yeah!

Especially if you go with "official sources" such as CustServe and The (Guest) Sage and have any class ability that isn't overtly magical in nature qualify. Such as inspiration points or fighter bonus feats.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-03, 07:51 PM
Can I count homebrew? <_<

For you? Sure.


Warblade. Two stances at once? Yes please.

I never understood how that is supposed to really work. I mean, assume a martial arts stance. Now, assume a different one. Now, try & do both? Do you feel any cooler? I'd be willing to bet that you look stupid & couldn't easily do any decent moves without dropping your stance first. It's a split-second delay, but in actual combat, a split-second separates victory from defeat.


Hey, rogue got an actual capstone (not that great, something like decreased trap disabling times , but passable).

Well, they did have the web-only option of gaining Skilled Saboteur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), but like nobody knows about that one, & I'm the only DM that I know that uses it.


I count the factotum's 19th level ability as their capstone.

Good for you. But I said 20th level. If we let that in, then someone's gonna choose a Wizard's 9th level spells as a capstone, even if they get those at 17th level. No dice.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 07:53 PM
For the warblade, their expertise allows them to blend the two stances together, thus gaining the benefits of both.

I like the Jade Phoenix Mage, personally. I mean, who doesn't want to explode?

Glimbur
2009-11-03, 07:55 PM
Totemist. Double* the effect of your attack soulmelds? Not bad.

jokey665
2009-11-03, 07:56 PM
Good for you. But I said 20th level. If we let that in, then someone's gonna choose a Wizard's 9th level spells as a capstone, even if they get those at 17th level. No dice.

I choose the Wizard's fourth 9th level spell slot.

Starscream
2009-11-03, 08:06 PM
Another vote for Knight here. Dread Necromancer is also nice, and pretty much the only way to be a lich without nerfing yourself by giving up caster levels.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:09 PM
Fighter 20. Because getting the same class feature you got at level one is AWESOME*.



*Not really.

arguskos
2009-11-03, 08:10 PM
Another vote for Knight here. Dread Necromancer is also nice, and pretty much the only way to be a lich without nerfing yourself by giving up caster levels.
BAM! No dice on that one! Death Master has the same capstone. :smalltongue:

Also, Dry Lich. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Starscream
2009-11-03, 08:17 PM
BAM! No dice on that one! Death Master has the same capstone. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I suppose they do. Don't seem like nearly as good a class overall, though. Better HD and BAB, but fewer spells and lamer class features.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-03, 08:18 PM
Monk.

Being able to Polymorph into an outsider is good.

AstralFire
2009-11-03, 08:22 PM
Dual-Boost.

Tavar
2009-11-03, 08:23 PM
Monk.

Being able to Polymorph into an outsider is good.

Shame about taking 20 levels to do it, though.

Plus, Elemental Savant does the same thing, and only loses a few CL.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:31 PM
Shame about taking 20 levels to do it, though.That's 27 levels. You need at least 7 more levels of spellcasting.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-03, 08:37 PM
That's 27 levels. You need at least 7 more levels of spellcasting.

No, you use UMD and spend lots of money on wands.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:40 PM
No, you use UMD and spend lots of money on wands.

Oh. Right. It's such an obvious move! How could I have ever missed that?! *Facepalm*


And of course no sarcasm was harmed used during the writing of this post. :smallamused:

Akal Saris
2009-11-03, 10:13 PM
Monstrous Team Up at 10th of Beast Heart Adept (Dungeonscape) looks fun:

Each time one of your 3 monstrous companions strikes an opponent (1/R per companion), you and all of your allies (including your other 2 companions) gets a free AOO, and that includes ranged classes? And any time 1 of your companions flanks with you or an ally, both get +4 Attack/+2 dmg? That really looks like ridiculous fun for the whole party as long as you and some of your allies/pets have Combat Reflexes.

streakster
2009-11-03, 10:27 PM
If I could say PrC's, I'd say the Jade Phoenix Mage, no contest. Nothing tops that. I mean, its weekly, and I hate daily abilities, and I love it to death. That should tell you something.

The best base class capstone is Dual Stance.

Or, possibly (because it's weird, it can be your capstone, or you can take it early) Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat.

Pyro_Azer
2009-11-03, 10:32 PM
Base: I'll cast my vote for knight here

PrC: Walker in the Waste. Dry lich for free? Yes please.

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 10:40 PM
PrC: Walker in the Waste. Dry lich for free? Yes please.

Yeah, I'm a fan of that one.

Stegyre
2009-11-03, 10:44 PM
Monk.

Being able to Polymorph into an outsider is good.
If that's all you want it for, take the Otherworldy feat (PGtF).
Sure, it's a less-than-prime feat, but if the alternative is 20 monk levels . . .

Draken
2009-11-03, 10:50 PM
Base class? Totemist. Because a +12 to +16 enhancement bonus to your attacks is just... I dunno.

Prestige Class... I am strangely fond of the Warshaper capstone.

arguskos
2009-11-03, 11:06 PM
Yeah, I suppose they do. Don't seem like nearly as good a class overall, though. Better HD and BAB, but fewer spells and lamer class features.
They get a MUUUCH better spell list though. More things to do with their spells, rather than just "lolNecromancy" spells.

Dreads do have a way nicer set of class features though, no joke there.

Gametime
2009-11-03, 11:40 PM
For base class, Truenamer has a pretty absurd capstone. An ability that can be combined with Leadership and good placement of allies to have unlimited free action planar travel? Yes please.

For prestige classes...does it have to be 10th level? Because Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil gets a pretty awesome 7th level ability. :smallbiggrin:

Wings of Peace
2009-11-04, 12:27 AM
Base class? Totemist. Because a +12 to +16 enhancement bonus to your attacks is just... I dunno.

Prestige Class... I am strangely fond of the Warshaper capstone.

What Soulmeld is that? I'm very much a Totemist fan but I admit in terms of offensive Melds my main experience is with the Manticore Belt.

Haberdashery
2009-11-04, 01:34 AM
It's not technically a capstone, but it's pretty close. The wild shape into an outsider or elemental as a Planar Shepherd. The ability that strikes fear into GMs everywhere...and causes the class to be forever banned. That's got my vote.

FMArthur
2009-11-04, 01:38 AM
Base: Healer. True Resurrection at no cost 1/week is nice. When you get your Healer to 20th level, seal her off somewhere completely safe where no harm can come to her, then start a new character. The Healer is now the contingency for any death in the campaign. :smallwink: More seriously, I'm thinking Knight has the best base class capstone.

Prestige: I could spend an hour looking at every PrC ever published, but I'm lazy so if you can think of an ability that beats an additional 8th-level spell slot and two additional 9th-level spell slots to spontaneously cast any spell on the Sorceror/Wizard list from as a free action, describe it here. Otherwise, Beholder Mage wins and keeps on winning as always.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 01:40 AM
It's not technically a capstone, but it's pretty close. The wild shape into an outsider or elemental as a Planar Shepherd. The ability that strikes fear into GMs everywhere...and causes the class to be forever banned. That's got my vote.Actually, Planar Bubble is ban-worthy too. Pick a plane with the Fast Time trait(there are IIRC 2 in Eberron). Now you and all the other casters and archers in your party get 10(or more) rounds of actions to the enemies one. You basically get free rein to turn them into doilies.

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-04, 02:19 AM
Base class: I'm probably going to have to go with knight or Warblade. Maybe monk, if only because getting 10/epic DR from one level is awesome. If level 19 counted, then I'd pick Dragon Shaman. Wings R awesome. :smallbiggrin:

PrC: Everyone seems to like ToB. I'm trying to wrack my brain for one that's not from there but I'm going to have to go with Shadow Sun Ninja. The transformation thing is so cool and it reminds me of a couple of certain shounen manga that I read.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-04, 02:24 AM
Actually, Planar Bubble is ban-worthy too. Pick a plane with the Fast Time trait(there are IIRC 2 in Eberron). Now you and all the other casters and archers in your party get 10(or more) rounds of actions to the enemies one. You basically get free rein to turn them into doilies.

It's a good use for that Skill Focus (basketweaving) feat you've had lying around since level 1. :smalltongue:

Tavar
2009-11-04, 02:27 AM
Base class: I'm probably going to have to go with knight or Warblade. Maybe monk, if only because getting 10/epic DR from one level is awesome. If level 19 counted, then I'd pick Dragon Shaman. Wings R awesome. :smallbiggrin:


The Monk's Dr is 10/magic. This means that anything that's really threatening already bypasses it.

BobVosh
2009-11-04, 02:53 AM
Rogue is awesome. Oh...wait. Nevermind :D

If we go with PrCs, beholder mage and IotSFV win pretty hard with this.

Eldariel
2009-11-04, 05:07 AM
For PrCs, Incantatrix is really nice. -1 to all metamagic costs? All of them? Yeah, I'll take it.

Killer Angel
2009-11-04, 05:32 AM
Fighter 20. Because getting the same class feature you got at level one is AWESOME*.


See it the other way: fighter is AWESOME 'cause he gains since the first level, his capstone 20th ability... :smallbiggrin:

Longcat
2009-11-04, 07:11 AM
Base Class: Dread Necromancer. Being a Lich is awesome.

Prestige Class: Walker in the Waste and Thaumaturgist.

Eldariel
2009-11-04, 07:29 AM
Oh wait, I'm changing mine:

Best PrC Capstone: ETERNAL BLADE! Once per encounter take your turn as an immediate action. OMGWTFBBQ!

Telonius
2009-11-04, 09:27 AM
Core base class: Wizard. Bonus feat plus another 9th-level spell? Barbarian has nothing on that.

Core PrC: .. haven't looked at Red Wizard and Purple Dragon Knight in awhile, but I'm AFB. From the SRD: Thaumaturgist. Most of the others don't have terrific capstones, but a cohort is nothing to sneeze at.

Core PrC including Psionics: Thrallherd. Two cohorts are better than one.

Beyond Core base class: Knight. While the Wizard does gain a feat and a spell, it's just a drop in the bucket of his super-powers. It just doesn't have the same emotional impact (and power increase) as a Knight that just refuses to die.

Beyond Core PrC: Eternal Blade. Bloodstorm Blade is up there for the "Death Blossom" - style attack, Dervish's Thousand Cuts is all kinds of awesome, and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's Kaleidoscopic Doom is just plain scary. But being able to take an entire turn as an immediate action once per encounter can't be beat.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 09:39 AM
Base: Truenamer. Not worth the 20 levels, though.

PRC: I actually like Incarnum Blade's.

Saph
2009-11-04, 09:52 AM
Base class: Probably the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting. It's exactly what a capstone should be - synergises well with their other abilities, not brokenly powerful, and lets you do something really special. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other ways to let a SR: Yes spell automatically break SR.)

Prestige class: Jade Phoenix Mage, no question. Your capstone ability is to explode and then come back to life. Think of the fun at parties!

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-04, 09:57 AM
Oh wait, I'm changing mine:

Best PrC Capstone: ETERNAL BLADE! Once per encounter take your turn as an immediate action. OMGWTFBBQ!

In terms of awesomeness, I agree. In term of power, I guess your first choice (-1 metamagic) of the Incantatrix is unmatched. I'll second that.

Capstone of base class.. I'd go with knight. It remembers me a manga I love (even if the character there is likely to be a Fighter/Barb/FB).

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 09:58 AM
Totemist. Double* the effect of your attack soulmelds? Not bad.

Beat me to it.


What Soulmeld is that? I'm very much a Totemist fan but I admit in terms of offensive Melds my main experience is with the Manticore Belt.

Any natural weapon the Totemist has usually gets an enhancement bonus to attacks/damage for investing essentia. Their capstone makes any essentia invested in a soulmeld bound to their totem count as 2 points for everything except capacity. This means a single soulmeld has a capacity of 6 before feats/items, 8 after feats and items, and can get an effective 16 Enhancement bonus on attacks/damage. Girallon Arms and the Manticore Belt take advantage of this nicely.


For a PrC? Jade Phoenix Mage and Abjurant Champion.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-04, 10:12 AM
Come, come, none of this can match the awesomeness of the Risen Martyr.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 10:20 AM
Come, come, none of this can match the awesomeness of the Risen Martyr.

"I'm sorry, I'd love to keep adventuring with you guys and save the world, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SavingTheWorld)but my PrC sucks and (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck)now I must go." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNowIMustGo)

bosssmiley
2009-11-04, 10:39 AM
The Unbodied (or whatever it's called) PrC from the XPH. Divest yourself of your fleshy garb and live as a spectral giant floating brain.

"The big brain am winning again! I am the greetest! Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!"

Eldariel
2009-11-04, 11:08 AM
"I'm sorry, I'd love to keep adventuring with you guys and save the world, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SavingTheWorld)but my PrC sucks and (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck)now I must go." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNowIMustGo)

Thanks a ton for wasting 2 hours of my life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife).

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 11:10 AM
Thanks a ton for wasting 2 hours of my life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife).

I know. I lost an hour just reading the Blessed With Suck page.

Fishy
2009-11-04, 12:03 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is awesome fun at parties, but Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) makes you one hell of a gatecrasher.

"What are you doing in my personal timeshifted demiplane?!"

"The door was open."

Optimystik
2009-11-04, 12:13 PM
One of my favorite capstones is Fatespinner. A target you can see gets -10 to its next save for a round, no save. If they're a higher level, the ability doesn't work, but gets refunded! Or you can boost an ally's (or your) next save by +10. And to top it off, it's a free action!

Also Divine Oracle. Can take an action during a surprise round - "I knew it!"

Ur-Priest - 9th level spells, and can steal SLAs from any creature. Call an efreet, steal its wishes (you can use them yourself since you aren't a genie) and go to town.

Master Specialist - most of the Major Esoterica are pure 3/day gold:
Conjuration - standard-action spells become swift actions. Combine with rapid summoning and start churning out mooks.
Abjuration - Personal range spells and emanations become touch-range. Put Spell Turning or AMF on your fighter.
Divination - Gain True Seeing for 5 rounds every time you cast a divination. That includes cantrips.
Enchantment - your targets save twice against your spells.
Illusion - Free Still Spell, Silent Spell and Eschew Materials for any illusion spell.
The Transmutation, Evocation and Necromancy esoterica suck though.

Eldariel
2009-11-04, 12:16 PM
One of my favorite capstones is Fatespinner. A target you can see gets -10 to its next save for a round, no save. If they're 10+ levels higher, the ability doesn't work, but gets refunded! Or you can boost an ally's (or your) next save by +10. And to top it off, it's a free action!

If only most monsters worth using it on didn't have more HD than you...


Abjuration - Personal range spells and emanations become touch-range. Put Spell Turning or AMF on your fighter.

Heh, try it with Arcane Reach: Ranged Touch Attack no SR, no save to AMF on an opponent's Fighter or Caster; GL doing ANYTHING after that (non-flying fighters with non-magical bows, and casters without any real casting ability tend to be rather boned).

Tyndmyr
2009-11-04, 12:19 PM
One of my favorite capstones is Fatespinner. A target you can see gets -10 to its next save for a round, no save. If they're 10+ levels higher, the ability doesn't work, but gets refunded! Or you can boost an ally's (or your) next save by +10. And to top it off, it's a free action!


But....no caster level makes wizards cry.

Optimystik
2009-11-04, 12:20 PM
If only most monsters worth using it on didn't have more HD than you...

This is true, but the defensive use (boosting your or an ally's save) is still useful. More importantly, since it's a free action, it lets you keep your immediate action for something else. But I agree, the offensive use could use a boost.


But....no caster level makes wizards cry.

Hey, at least they put it at the end instead of delaying your progression going in, like a ton of other PrCs do. :smallwink:

Fishy
2009-11-04, 12:22 PM
Divine Oracle sucks.

No one can ever throw you a surprise birthday party.

And you can't watch horror movies. And detective novels are right out.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-04, 12:25 PM
Hey, at least they put it at the end instead of delaying your progression going in, like a ton of other PrCs do. :smallwink:

Yeah...that does make the first four level quite useful. Just a bit weak for a capstone level, imo.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 12:35 PM
The Transmutation, Evocation and Necromancy esoterica suck though.

The Evocation one I will give you, but the Necromancy one is funny if the entire party is undead. The Transmutation one is somewhat debatable.

Dacia Brabant
2009-11-04, 12:41 PM
Seconding Swordsage 20's Dual Boost. Girallon Windmill Fleshrip + Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still = Madness!

If you can mitigate the negative levels on yourself, Shadowsun Ninja's capstone is pretty sweet. Not crazy like Island in Time and not hilarious like JPM's explody fun, but still pretty sweet.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-04, 12:48 PM
Base class: Probably the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting. It's exactly what a capstone should be - synergises well with their other abilities, not brokenly powerful, and lets you do something really special. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other ways to let a SR: Yes spell automatically break SR.)Factotum 11. There's more than one reason it gestalts so well. Also works great with sublime chord and ur-priest builds.

Aldizog
2009-11-04, 01:06 PM
If only most monsters worth using it on didn't have more HD than you...
Inspire Greatness can help here, especially if boosted with Song of the Heart or Words of Creation. Still not likely to affect a dragon or a giant, but likely to get your HD high enough to affect outsiders and classed NPCs.

Are negative levels supposed to reduce effective HD for determining the effect of spells? If so, that could be another option.

The non-casting level should be at the beginning of the class. In fact, most caster PrCs offer so much over the base class that giving them all a non-casting first level would be appropriate (aside from things like Mystic Theurge).

Optimystik
2009-11-04, 01:37 PM
Divine Oracle sucks.

No one can ever throw you a surprise birthday party.

And you can't watch horror movies. And detective novels are right out.

*The party goes into a movie theater. While buying popcorn, the Oracle checks his orb.*

"Hey guys, it was his sled!"

On the plus side, they can't ambush him to beat the crud out of him either :smallbiggrin:


The Evocation one I will give you, but the Necromancy one is funny if the entire party is undead. The Transmutation one is somewhat debatable.

I must admit that my analysis failed to account for the entire party being undead :smalltongue: You'd think I'd have learned to account for that by now!


The non-casting level should be at the beginning of the class. In fact, most caster PrCs offer so much over the base class that giving them all a non-casting first level would be appropriate (aside from things like Mystic Theurge).

I disagree; To me, the choice isn't whether to PrC or stay in the base class, but rather which PrC fits the character design. I see uninterrupted progression as a reward to the player for finding a prestige class or classes that fit their concept. Nerfing caster progression has flat-out killed some truly unique PrCs, like Argent Savant and Blood Magus. The overpowered ones like Incantatrix and 7FV - those are the ones that could use a dead level in my opinion.

Tavar
2009-11-04, 01:41 PM
Very true. Especially since alot of them really don't increase your power by any appreciable amount.

Or actually make you weaker, like Elemental Savant...

DragoonWraith
2009-11-04, 01:58 PM
The issue is that spellcasting is quantized (you can lose a spellcasting level or you can not lose a spellcasting level), and a single quantum (a spellcasting level) is huge. There's no middle of the road.

Unless you're an Archmage. More classes should have used that scheme.

Note that this is also an issue that my Mana spellcasting variant was specifically designed to address (though it admittedly did not entirely fix the problem, only lessened it - things are still quantized, but now you can lose half a spellcasting level, as opposed to a full one, which helps matters somewhat).

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:33 PM
Nerfing caster progression has flat-out killed some truly unique PrCs, like Argent Savant and Blood Magus.

And why is being better at teleporting considered more powerful than Incantatrix?

Seriously, WotC.

Nate the Snake
2009-11-04, 05:04 PM
Divine Oracle sucks.

No one can ever throw you a surprise birthday party.

And you can't watch horror movies. And detective novels are right out.

You just made me like it more. :smallbiggrin:

Then again, that's just me. Surprise parties irritate me, I hate horror movies, and the suspense of detective novels frustrates me. Basically, I don't really like surprises in general, so +1 for Immunity to Surprise.

For base classes, I want to cast a vote for the incarnate's Perfect Meldshaper, in addition to the totemist's Totem Embodiment. (Can you tell I'm a fan of MoI? :smallwink:)

Zaq
2009-11-04, 09:55 PM
It can't hold up to Dual Boost, Perfect Meldshaper, Say My Name and I Am There, or Loyal Beyond Death, but I like the immediate-casting version of Absorb Spell that Spellthieves get at 20th. Sure, it'll rarely come into play, but when it does...

For prestige classes, I'm going to have to say Rainbow Servant. Even if you're using a "normal" caster and not a Warmage/Beguiler/DN, it's still awesome to suddenly have twice as many spell choices.

Zaydos
2009-11-04, 10:04 PM
I'd say I like... well from Core either Wizard (9th level spell and bonus feat) but that doesn't feel like a capstone so Barbarian.

Outside of core (where capstones get interesting): I like Dread Necromancers turning into a lich for RP reasons mostly.

As far as PrCs are involved there are too many for me to claim to know them all. So looking at it flavor-wise... I can't say.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-11-05, 09:14 AM
Wait does The Silver Key PrC's capstone allow you to enter a Wiz20's personal demiplane?

If so, I'm about to post in that crazy BG thread...