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Leliel
2009-11-03, 11:42 PM
Well, as you may know, I am planning an all-lycanthrope non-evil game with a lot of moral grayness. As in "planning for what will happen if the PCs join the charismatic, misguided leader of the terrorists".

Speaking of whom...

For Erebin Pullusia-his name-I had in mind a fallen hero who really wants to convince himself that he's the good guy, but he isn't buying his own act. So he does a lot of nice and downright heroic acts to sooth his social conscience, and has a pretty firm line he will not cross. It's for that reason he's attracted a lot of followers despite not being a good speaker-they're fooled by the image of a benevolent freedom fighter he projects, since up to an extent, he is. To put it simply, he's the Malcolm X of the world, if Malcolm X was a leader of a paramilitary group. The fact that the leader of his primary opposition is a cruel Pelorite priest who often burns villages to the ground to "purify" them and a torture expert helps.

You see, before he became the lycanthropic BBEG he is today, he was more-or-less what TV Tropes would call a Messiah-the embodiment of Neutral Good, always willing to forgive those that have crossed him, etc. However, the cold-blooded murder of his werewolf wife by a man he trusted pretty much shattered his worldview into a million pieces-sort of like how Tenma from Monster would be if Johan got to him. It's also done wonders for his personal life-he and his second-in-commands are pretty much a dysfunctional family.

However, he still wants to save everyone, even if it's from themselves. So he keeps his knight's honor, and is actually a bit of a better judge when to put reason before it.

Of course, as Erebin is all too aware of, he's still the bad guy, so I was wondering:

How would you portray a hero who pretty much loved you and everyone before he fell and became a tormented terrorist?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 11:54 PM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.

He opposes right-wing religious nutjobs that wantonly destroy because they suspect bad things might be happening. He stands up for the innocent, and actively works for their freedom.

In short, what does he do that's bad?

Falconer
2009-11-04, 12:00 AM
Well, if I recall the original thread about Erebin's personality correctly (yes, I remember reading it-it was very well written), he actually is, in most respects, a good person. But when it comes to the cause he's fighting for, he won't tolerate anyone standing in his way, and will do whatever it takes to remove that obstacle, whether it be explaining things to the person very politely or ruthlessly destroying everything they love.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-04, 12:02 AM
He's a determinator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator), then.

Check out the link for ideas?

Leliel
2009-11-04, 12:12 AM
EDIT: Undoing the previous edit.

The question I plan to ask the PCs. Repeatedly.

Sure, he does typical "terrorist" things like steal weapons of mass destruction, blow up civic centers, enact the various stages of a plan to summon an ancient spirit of the moon to turn the majority of the world's population lycanthropic-OK, that last one is more high fantasy villain-but he obeys the rules of war as if it was a holy text, and he sends warning messages to civilians before his attacks. Indeed, that's why the war effort is taking so long-he's applying the honor of formal war to a guerilla one.

Like Malcolm X himself, it's arguable that he's just taking measures to defend his people from further prosecution. If the PCs disagree with him, I want them to do it on his methods, not his ideology. The MLK to to his MX, so to speak.

If not...well, I succeeded in the moral grayness, didn't I.

Mando Knight
2009-11-04, 12:13 AM
He opposes right-wing religious nutjobs that wantonly destroy because they suspect bad things might be happening.

I resent that comment. A priest of the Burning Hate isn't a reason to bring in two topics anathema to the forum.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-04, 12:17 AM
The question I plan to ask the PCs. Repeatedly.

Sure, he does typical "terrorist" things like steal weapons of mass destruction, blow up civic centers, enact the various stages of a plan to summon an ancient spirit of the moon to turn the majority of the world's population lycanthropic-OK, that last one is more high fantasy villain-but he obeys the rules of war as if it was a holy text, and he sends warning messages to civilians before his attacks. Indeed, that's why the war effort is taking so long-he's applying the honor of formal war to a guerilla one.

Like Malcolm X himself, it's arguable that he's just taking measures to defend his people from further prosecution. If the PCs disagree with him, I want them to do it on his methods, not his ideology. The MLK to to his MX, so to speak.

If not...well, I succeeded in the moral grayness, didn't I.

I like this.

He could very well be a man who is CG (or even LG), but who feels he has been forced to take drastic measures. Sometimes the ends do justify the means, especially if the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

If he HAS contemplated them, and believes them to be horrific enough to justify using intelligent underhanded tactics (though with, as you said, a heavy heaping helping of honor), then maybe the PCs are fighting for the wrong side and will pop out a heel-face-turn.

riddles
2009-11-04, 05:07 AM
i think he should include a healthy amount of cynicism, knowing how world views change like his did.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 08:43 AM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.

Yeah, pretty much. He's a nice guy. He does terrorist things to fight for a cause many would consider quite wrong, but he's nice. If what's been said is true (too lazy to read lol), you've already made him gray enough. IF you want to play up his disillusionment, you could, but I doubt you need to. Miht even detract from the uniqueness.

The Corinthian
2009-11-04, 08:49 AM
EDIT: Undoing the previous edit.

...he sends warning messages to civilians before his attacks. Indeed, that's why the war effort is taking so long-he's applying the honor of formal war to a guerilla one.



Something of a tangent, but it must be said: The above is impractical to the point of ludicrousness. If there is anything like the imparity of force that characterises a typical guerilla conflict, and if his opponents are at all competent, his movement would never achieve any successes at all.

bosssmiley
2009-11-04, 08:57 AM
How would you portray a hero who pretty much loved you and everyone before he fell and became a tormented terrorist?

The Geek Time Sink Site Which Will Not Be Named Or Linked offers numerous 'how to' examples in its pages on "The Well-Intentioned Extremist" and "The Knight Templar" character archetypes. It also offers cautionary 'how not to' examples on the "Darker and Edgier" page.

Jothki
2009-11-04, 03:44 PM
You could have it so that he does horrible things because he feels he has to. He doesn't believe that he's a good person, or that what he's doing is even necessarily 'right'. He simply can no longer accept the world as it is, and seeks to change it for the better no matter what the consequences may be. Guilt is something that will just serve to stand in his way, an obstacle that he doesn't need. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel it, he just willfully pushes it aside.

He isn't doing good deeds in order to atone, as he feels that atonement is beyond him as long as he continues what he's doing. He does it because it's the right thing to do, because he doesn't feel bitterness towards the people caught in the middle of his actions. It's pretty much a reflex from his days as a knight, but he has never felt the need to stop doing it, since even if it occasionally stands in his way, it's the only way he has left to let himself know that he hasn't completely lost himself, that he's still working for the good of all.

Fayd
2009-11-04, 04:27 PM
One point that might help...

How does lycanthropy work? What mental changes affect a person while they are transformed? Is there any part of their old personality left? Does any part of their wolf form affect their normal thought patterns?

If werewolves, while transformed, are the ultimate predators who have an insatiable gluttony for blood and flesh...it may be that some of his plans would lead to the eventual death of mankind by ecological collapse...that and if werewolves attack each other while transformed...well.

Prime32
2009-11-04, 04:43 PM
I recommend reading that Let's Play of Fate/stay night (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3088127). You'll figure out what I mean.

Leliel
2009-11-04, 10:22 PM
One point that might help...

How does lycanthropy work? What mental changes affect a person while they are transformed? Is there any part of their old personality left? Does any part of their wolf form affect their normal thought patterns?


Lycanthropy in this game is the result of a person being partially possessed by a primal, non-sapient spirit, causing them to be natural mediums to the spirit world. This causes some personality changes according to their particular animal form (in D&D, lycanthropy includes more than werewolves-there's werecats, wereravens, wereboars...so long as it's a carnivore or an omnivore, you can be it). It is not particularly drastic, however-while a werewolf becomes more social and pack-bound, and a werecat becomes more independent and private, the original personality is still the completely dominant one.

A lycanthrope retains his mind while transformed, although the full moon forces the change-not to mention it's power tends to induce a sensation not unlike being happily drunk in the inexperienced and undisciplined (although this doesn't kick in until after their first moon). During transformation, their spirit side begins to call out to other spirits like a flare, and if they feel it is worth their time, they can communicate to the lycanthrope in a mild hallucination. They will usually attempt to press the lycans into helping their agenda in return for supernatural boons and helping create magic items. They are easily ignored, but a few might be persistent about it.

And yes, I stole the idea from Werewolf: The Forsaken.

As for The Corinthian: You're right. I want to create a cunning rebel leader, not a Lawful Stupid one. Indeed, that's part of the reason I initially deleted that post-it sounded incredibly stupid after I read it.

Devils_Advocate
2009-11-05, 06:37 PM
So, basically, Erebin decided that to an extent he had to become what he hates in order to fight what he hates. So that's an obvious source of self-loathing, which gives him something to angst over, thereby making him a tragic figure. But he also needs to maintain a position of moral superiority; else how can he say that anyone (including him) ought to be on his side of this conflict?

Of course, his enemies probably tell themselves that all of the horrible things they do are justified because they're fighting even greater evil (which they aren't). So how can he say that he's being any more honest with himself than they are with themselves? Obviously, he needs to be able to point to specific deeds and principles as proof that he's the good guy.

One big question is whether he's ultimately primarily endangering people by exacerbating conflict or primarily protecting people by dismantling a cruel power structure. But a better question might be how one might better accomplish his goals.