Sneak Attack Question [3.5]

[root9125]

I have a player in my group with a rogue / swashbuckler. Aiming for the Daring Outlaw feat.

He has two weapons, both of which he uses to sneak attack over the course of a full round (2 attacks each). Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times... but what's the rule that says he can't?

[Evil the Cat]

There is no rule to say he can't, that's a basic rogue strategy for doing damage.

assuming rapiers, if all hit (including his two that are at a pretty low attack bonus by that point) he'll average about 70 damage. Charging melee builds do even more, with a lower chance of any of their damage being lost to missed attacks.

[root9125]

Holy crap.

Now, can that be combined with a feint (I think that's the right word. Basically he yells "HEY LOOK OVER THERE" and rolls a bluff check)?

Cause if so... *mindboggle*

[Tavar]

Not really. Feint only works on your next attack, and either takes a standard or move action. Plus, TWF requires a full attack, which means the squishy rouge is standing next to the big bruiser for a round.

[Sliver]

You check for each attack if he gets SA benefits.. If he gets them from something that works on all attacks (greater invisibility, flanking, flatfooted oppontent) then yeah, SA is for all attacks..

And you need to get a few feats for feint.. The improved feint lets you do it as a move action, which still isn't really good as it won't let you do a full attack.. I think only if you do it next turn.. But it might say that he is flatfooted only for the next attack.. then no dice..

Edit: Wohoo ninja!

[KnightOfV]

There's a few.

1.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flat-footed. This means to pull off those 4 sneak attacks he has to get 5 feet away from something without them being aware of him. Without help from magic or some very amazing hide checks it'll never happen.

2.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flanked. He's gotta bring a buddy with him to help him beat on the monster and he's gotta spend one turn getting in position before he can unleash the d6s of death.

3.) all attacks take -2 for 2 weapon fighting, and 2 of the attacks take an additional -5. It's very unlikely they will all hit. (No matter how much we rogues want them all to...)

4.)Undead, constructs, oozes, plants... seems like half the monster manual is immune to critical hits and sneak attack. depends on the campaign of course.

Honestly, take if from someone who's played a few rogues. If he can pull off 4 sneak attacks in a round on something, he deserves to kill it. Give him his triumph It sounds scary, but it is really hard to pull off in practice and is very well balanced compared to some of the other classes at level 10.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Holy crap.

Now, can that be combined with a feint (I think that's the right word. Basically he yells "HEY LOOK OVER THERE" and rolls a bluff check)?

Cause if so... *mindboggle*No, feinting is a move action, meaning he can't do it and full attack in the same round. Flanking is generally how Rogues do it, though by now he may go for reliable access to something like Blink or Greater Invis.
Keep in mind that his attack routine is probably at something like +15/+15/+10/+10, whereas a charger is looking at +23/+18 and deals something like 84 damage per hit(unoptimized).

[Lycanthromancer]

Sneak attack dice look a lot more impressive than they really are. 10d6 sneak attack damage only averages 35 damage, which, at level 20, really isn't all that, even if added to each attack on a full attack (even dual-wielding).

[Sliver]

There's a few.

1.)Can't sneak attack unless the opponent is flat-footed. This means to pull off those 4 sneak attacks he has to get 5 feet away from something without them being aware of him. Without help from magic or some very amazing hide checks it'll never happen.

4.)Undead, constructs, oozes, plants... seems like half the monster manual is immune to critical hits and sneak attack. depends on the campaign of course.

1) Acting first in combat works too, but then you probably have to move to the enemy and get off 1 attack before he does..

4) If your DM is planning on using those creatures a lot, it is only fair you should know about it. There are ways to get through those immunities.

[Saintheart]

If he gets Haste cast on him he'll get another attack as well.

Sneak Attack damage on its own probably is sub-optimal as compared with a fighter, so I've always thought personally you have to focus on the frequency of getting those attacks in rather than the damage as such.

And the frequency of Sneak Attack damage gets better if he takes Telling Blow and uses a rapier with the keen quality. Sneak attack damage on flanking or being flatfooted? Good. Potentially, sneak attack damage anytime you roll 15 or over? Better.

[Superglucose]

assuming rapiers, if all hit (including his two that are at a pretty low attack bonus by that point) he'll average about 70 damage. Charging melee builds do even more, with a lower chance of any of their damage being lost to missed attacks.
Or bad damage rolls.

+4d6 you say? *hmms*

Now keep in mind this is just from memory, but that +4d6 means he's level what, 7? So, level 4 swashbuckler, BAB +9 gives him +9/+4 and then +9/+4 on his offhand (if I recall correctly). That's four attacks, assuming they all hit (he's using +1 flaming shortswords for this argument) he'll be doing 5d6+1d6 fire +... 7/5 (strength). That's essentially (6d6 + 7) *2 + (6d6+5)*2, which means 16d6+24, which averages to 64 damage, and also maxes at 130 damage.

A Lion Totem Barbarian at that level will be PAing for 11, shock troopering that away, with a strength of probably 25 at this point (18 base, +4 item, +3 points) and using a +3 weapon (for our purposes, +1 Flaming Shocking Greatsword). His BAB will be +11/+6/+1, so he'll get three attacks, and be dealing... 4d6+32 per attack, for (4d6+32)*3 12d6+96 damage. The minimum damage for this LT Barbarian is 108 which is almost double the rogue's average damage, and the maximum damage is 192, with the average being 152.

Add to this the LTB has a much higher chance of hitting (+11/+6/+1 as opposed to +9/+4, as well as a higher strength) as well as the fact that there are tons of enemies immune to sneak attack (Seriously, throw a construct at the rogue and watch him cry, or undead) and what you're encountering is pretty standard affair from a Rogue.

[Animefunkmaster]

Compared with a good charging build a rogue's dice is suboptimal. If none such fighter exists Sneak Attack CAN be very useful. But not always (as illustrated above with immunities and conditions for sneak attack) and it usually relies on magic (Bluff vs Sense motive +BAB... crazy hard to work).

total of 20d6 over 4 attacks (dr) assuming they all hit, sneak attack conditions are met, full round, and the creature isn't immune.

Compare to some spell the wizard has at there disposal and the balance seems obvious.

Cloud Kill, Wall of Stone, Dominate Person (and Mindfog to make sure this works), Wall of Force, OVERLAND FLIGHT, Polymorph, ANIMATE DEAD, Greater Invisibility, Solid Fog.

Why just kill the enemy when you can take them over as a minion? Thats without even thinking of fireballs (which if hits more than two enemies is comparable damage per round and is a 3rd level spell).

Edit: My examples are level 10 since OP brought up level 10. So 5d6 sneak attack.

[Curmudgeon]

I have a player in my group with a rogue / swashbuckler. Aiming for the Daring Outlaw feat.
...
Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times... but what's the rule that says he can't?
Clearly, you aren't paying attention to what other classes can do. From the math it looks like there's only one way this can work: 8 levels of Rogue followed by 2 of Swashbuckler, which would have the qualifications for Daring Outlaw come after the 9th level feat slot. That's BAB +8, or AB +6 with Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which must have been the level 9 feat. A Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian with Leap Attack and a lance can charge and do a lot more. 4d6 4 times averages 56 points. The Barbarian using Power Attack with a lance for 6 points is also attacking at AB +6. But the Barbarian does +30 points on the first swing, and +18 on the second, for +48. The Rogue/Swashbuckler gets +STR twice and +½ STR twice, for a total of +3xSTR. The Barbarian gets +2xSTR twice, for a total of +4xSTR, and the Barbarian's STR is going to be much higher. So they're roughly on par for damage here.

But wait -- I didn't include the Barbarian's Rage in any of this. At level 10 that boosts their STR by +4, meaning they can Power Attack for 2 more points, resulting in +24 more points of damage. The Rogue/Swashbuckler is left in the dust.

Next level the Barbarian will both get a 3rd attack and get +2 more points of STR with their Rage. Get to level 12 and the Rogue/Swashbuckler can finally take Daring Outlaw and get their sneak attack up to 6d6, but they still lag behind the Barbarian, even with optimal conditions (i.e., a flanking partner already in place and an enemy that's not immune to sneak attack). The Barbarian needs just one thing: a clear path for charging.

The only thing that's really special about sneak attack is how very situational it is. While you can make it work well enough to benefit from it, doing so really eats up your feats. The Barbarian I posited above used just two feats. You've got three listed, even with Swashbuckler providing the necessary Weapon Finesse for "free". So the Barbarian has plenty of room for improvement. Just search for "übercharger" and you'll get plenty of reasons why sneak attack isn't anywhere close to overpowered.

[sofawall]

Clearly, you aren't paying attention to what other classes can do. From the math it looks like there's only one way this can work: 8 levels of Rogue followed by 2 of Swashbuckler, which would have the qualifications for Daring Outlaw come after the 9th level feat slot. That's BAB +8, or AB +6 with Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which must have been the level 9 feat. A Lion Spiritual Totem Barbarian with Leap Attack and a lance can charge and do a lot more. 4d6 4 times averages 56 points. The Barbarian using Power Attack with a lance for 6 points is also attacking at AB +6. But the Barbarian does +30 points on the first swing, and +18 on the second, for +48. The Rogue/Swashbuckler gets +STR twice and +½ STR twice, for a total of +3xSTR. The Barbarian gets +2xSTR twice, for a total of +4xSTR, and the Barbarian's STR is going to be much higher. So they're roughly on par for damage here.

Why does the barbarian do less damage on swing two? And why does he have Str*2, not Str*3?

[Curmudgeon]

Why does the barbarian do less damage on swing two?
Because the Leap Attack feat (with errata) specifies "this attack" for its benefit. So while the Barbarian gets Pounce to allow a full attack, Leap Attack is still limited to just the first attack.

And why does he have Str*2, not Str*3?
I goofed. The Barbarian is supposed to get 1½xSTR twice, for a total of 3xSTR (matching the Rogue/Swashbuckler), but with a bigger STR mod. This doesn't really change anything, does it? The charging Barbarian out-performs the Rogue on damage, and needs fewer feats to do so.

[Divinech]

Another method to prevent sneak attacks:

Form the SRD:
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

So just give your enemies some potions of blur and the rogue cannot sneak attack. Even if he is flanking a flat-footed opponent. As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.

[Curmudgeon]

So just give your enemies some potions of blur and the rogue cannot sneak attack. Even if he is flanking a flat-footed opponent. As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.
That's why it's occasionally worthwhile to use a keen rapier with the Telling Blow feat, because it will add precision damage
beyond 30' range
regardless of concealment
without needing 10' of movement first (for skirmish)
You just need a critical hit.

[PinkysBrain]

He has two weapons, both of which he uses to sneak attack over the course of a full round (2 attacks each). Clearly, at level 10, he's not supposed to get to do (weapon damage + 4d6) 4 times
It's single target damage, it needs a full attack ... clearly he isn't doing enough damage yet in a splatbook based campaign!

Anyway, don't worry about it ... even a core caster without metamagic reducers throwing around fireballs is easily in the same damage output range, they will do a little less single target, but they really should at that.

Never understood how anyone could be perfectly all right with all those D6's from AoE casters and then get scared by only a couple more from a single target rogue.

[Foryn Gilnith]

As a DM you can very easily control which enemies can be sneak attacked.

Why would you want to? Making a primary combat-based character (swashbuckler) feel useless in combat isn't a very good idea. Could very well risk a wipe if the Daring Outlaw is the prime striker.

[Thespianus]

That's why it's occasionally worthwhile to use a keen rapier with the Telling Blow feat, because it will add precision damage
beyond 30' range
regardless of concealment
without needing 10' of movement first (for skirmish)
You just need a critical hit.

..and a target that isn't immune against critical hits, but I assume that's a given. I'm nitpicking for the sake of completeness. :)

[Divinech]

Why would you want to? Making a primary combat-based character (swashbuckler) feel useless in combat isn't a very good idea. Could very well risk a wipe if the Daring Outlaw is the prime striker.

To make certain combats more exciting?
The player needs another strategy or needs to be prepared to counter the enemy's defenses.

I find it rather boring if any enemy can be defeated by the same tactics. But maybe thats just me...

Edit: But you're right, you should be VERY careful if the primary striker relies on sneak attack.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Making targets merely immune is not exciting IMO. Simply using undead or blur potions is not exciting. Making it difficult to set up a flank, or difficult to close to melee - that gives me a challenge. But blur-based concealment immunity is just "No, screw you" no matter how hard I tacticize.

[industrious]

The Invisible Blade PrC, at 4th level, gives feinting as a free action with a dagger, punching dagger, or kukri. At 5th level, you can take 10 on feints.

[Sinfire Titan]

To make certain combats more exciting?
The player needs another strategy or needs to be prepared to counter the enemy's defenses.

I find it rather boring if any enemy can be defeated by the same tactics. But maybe thats just me...

Edit: But you're right, you should be VERY careful if the primary striker relies on sneak attack.

There's no counter for Blur/Blink if you aren't a spellcaster (Trueseeing is hard to get).


Seriously, Sneak Attack is overrated. People react to it poorly. Most of the other posters in this thread are right; there's nothing wrong with the Daring Outlaw getting Sneak Attack on every attack.

[Darrin]

There's no counter for Blur/Blink if you aren't a spellcaster (Trueseeing is hard to get).


Pierce Magical Concealment would like a word with you...

And the Scout's Headband is only, what, 3400 GP?

[Boci]

The Invisible Blade PrC, at 4th level, gives feinting as a free action with a dagger, punching dagger, or kukri. At 5th level, you can take 10 on feints.

Other way round I think. And it was errated to be a swift action. (The hulk on the hand was untouched...)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As has been pointed out, it is far more difficult for the Rogue to get into 'sneak attack position' than first seems possible. Either you need a beatstick to flank with, or you need convenient circumstances.

Also, note that a level 5 Barbarian also ignores flanking and flat-footed, making it almost impossible to sneak attack them. So a charging Orc Barbarian, despite being a lower CR and ECL, is going to mop the floor with that Rogue.

[Boci]

As has been pointed out, it is far more difficult for the Rogue to get into 'sneak attack position' than first seems possible. Either you need a beatstick to flank with, or you need convenient circumstances.

Also, note that a level 5 Barbarian also ignores flanking and flat-footed, making it almost impossible to sneak attack them. So a charging Orc Barbarian, despite being a lower CR and ECL, is going to mop the floor with that Rogue.

I thought uncanny dodge just allowed you to keep your dex to AC when flatfooted. You could still be caught ff.

As for flanking with the beatstick, yes its hard to set up and, it leaves you adjacent to a monster to whom you've just caused quite a lot of pain. Oh yeah, you also have the second worse hit die in the game.

[ashmanonar]

Pierce Magical Concealment would like a word with you...

And the Scout's Headband is only, what, 3400 GP?

Pierce Magical Concealment has at least 2 feats required to take it, as well as ranks in a skill not many scout/swashies can afford to take. Depending on when you can take those ranks, it's probably not available at that lower level anyways.

That said, it's a great solution, and pairs even better once you have the holy trinity of Mage Slayer, PMC, and PMP. Plus a level of favored enemy: arcanist ranger if you can afford it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I thought uncanny dodge just allowed you to keep your dex to AC when flatfooted. You could still be caught ff. It is the 'denied dex bonus to AC' part which allows you to use sneak attack. Without denying him Dex Bonus to AC, you have no sneak attack

Citation:


The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

[ericgrau]

what's the rule that says he can't?
None... except mid BAB (maybe 1-2 of those 4 attacks hit against anything worthwhile), low HP and low AC. Greater invisiblity + flanking fixes much of that. Haste from the party wizard or boots of speed also helps enormously, since you get more attacks at full BAB instead of -5, plus it gives +1 AB, +1 AC. A ranged weapon also solves the AC/HP problem. You can't flank, but you still get a suprise round plus a full round of sneak attacks from winning initiative. From there greater invisibility, a ring of blinking or etc. can keep it going. And there's Point Blank Shot and lesser bracers of archery to cheaply boost your AB 2 points higher than a melee weapon. Not having the -5/-10/-15 attacks isn't losing much, as you'll be landing about as many actual hits anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

From there greater invisibility, a ring of blinking or etc. can keep it going

Point of correction: Ring of Blinking gives you the Blinking effect. True, this gives you concealment, which allows you to hide. However, it also give THEM a Concealment Miss Chance, which NEGATES your Sneak Attack dice. I've seen this used a lot, but it just isn't correct.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Point of correction: Ring of Blinking gives you the Blinking effect. True, this gives you concealment, which allows you to hide. However, it also give THEM a Concealment Miss Chance, which NEGATES your Sneak Attack dice. I've seen this used a lot, but it just isn't correct.

Throwing and Archery might bypass that, as once you stop holding onto an object, it is no longer attended, and therefore loses the effect from Blinking.

[Boci]

It is the 'denied dex bonus to AC' part which allows you to use sneak attack. Without denying him Dex Bonus to AC, you have no sneak attack

Citation:

Dam, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out.

[Douglas]

Point of correction: Ring of Blinking gives you the Blinking effect. True, this gives you concealment, which allows you to hide. However, it also give THEM a Concealment Miss Chance, which NEGATES your Sneak Attack dice. I've seen this used a lot, but it just isn't correct.
It causes your attacks to have a miss chance, but not because of concealment. This is an important distinction. Concealment = no sneak attack. Non-concealment miss chance = sneak attack all you want.

[Samb]

What about concealing amorpha? It gives you concealment without making your opponent concealed.

Anyway, I'm a bit sick of all this "sneak attack blows" talk. My first class was a thief and my favorite class remains a rogue. Like an uber charger, you need to invest feats into sneak attack to make it worthwhile. Craven being the most important one that almost doubles the damage output of each SA.

Daring outlaw with swashbukler is a great way to have full BAB and hence more attacks which= moar damage.

Other feats to consider are:

sacred strike for d8s instead of d6s.
Deadly precision which adds on average 2 damage per die.
Elusive target makes up for a lot for light armor. If you can tolerate the prereqs.
Dark stalker is a must.
The ambush feats in CS are nice too though I doubt you will have the space after trying for elusive target.

Telling blow is fine for a swashbukler although I personally don't use it since I can't spare the feats to make it happen.

Anyway, daring outlaw swashbulker is fine.
Ambush feats from

[Curmudgeon]

Like an uber charger, you need to invest feats into sneak attack to make it worthwhile. Craven being the most important one that almost doubles the damage output of each SA.
OK, let's not get carried away here. While Power Attack, Leap Attack, and so on can way more than double an übercharger's output, Craven isn't quite so awesome.

Typically Craven is a good choice as a 9th level feat. That gives the Rogue sneak damage = 5d6 (17.5 average) + Craven (9 more). That's just over 50% (51.4%, actually) additional damage, not double. With high threat range weapons you'll do a tad better because Craven damage, since it's not from dice, gets multiplied on a critical hit.

+50% is great. Really; nobody but the brashest Rogue would try to do without it. But it's still nowhere close to übercharger territory.

[Lycanthromancer]

OK, let's not get carried away here. While Power Attack, Leap Attack, and so on can way more than double an übercharger's output, Craven isn't quite so awesome.

Typically Craven is a good choice as a 9th level feat. That gives the Rogue sneak damage = 5d6 (17.5 average) + Craven (9 more). That's just over 50% (51.4%, actually) additional damage, not double. With high threat range weapons you'll do a tad better because Craven damage, since it's not from dice, gets multiplied on a critical hit.

+50% is great. Really; nobody but the brashest Rogue would try to do without it. But it's still nowhere close to übercharger territory.

1d6 is, on average, (1+6)/2 = 3.5. Craven is +1 per level, which is about +2 per sneak attack die that you have (+1d6 every other level). Thus, on even levels, you'll have 3.5 vs 2, which is relatively close, all things considered, especially on high-crit weapons (just how close depends on just how often you do actually critical).

[PinkysBrain]

Point of correction: Ring of Blinking gives you the Blinking effect. True, this gives you concealment, which allows you to hide. However, it also give THEM a Concealment Miss Chance, which NEGATES your Sneak Attack dice.
It gives you a miss chance, but it's not a concealment miss chance. They don't see while you are ethereal, you do see them while you are ethereal ... you just sometimes miss the timing and hit them while you are ethereal.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

1d6 is, on average, (1+6)/2 = 3.5. Craven is +1 per level, which is about +2 per sneak attack die that you have (+1d6 every other level). Thus, on even levels, you'll have 3.5 vs 2, which is relatively close, all things considered, especially on high-crit weapons (just how close depends on just how often you do actually critical).You say close, I say just over half as much(57%).

[Lycanthromancer]

You say close, I say just over half as much(57%).Craven is also multiplied on a critical, as I believe I mentioned.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Craven is also multiplied on a critical, as I believe I mentioned.Unlike the majority of your damage, meaning that you don't care enough about crits to do too much for it. Keen and Imp Crit have too high a cost for most Rogues, especially TWFers.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Unless you're using Telling Blow anyway...

[Blackfang108]

It is the 'denied dex bonus to AC' part which allows you to use sneak attack. Without denying him Dex Bonus to AC, you have no sneak attack

Citation:

Nope. OR Flanking. Being Flanked does not make you flat footed

Uncanny Dodge denies a rogue SA only when the Barbarian is flat-footed and not when he's flanked. Sudden Strikers are screwed, however. Improved Uncanny Dodge stops flanking as well, but not for everything.

Improved Uncanny Dodge:

At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Strong enough rogues can still gain Sneak Attack on a Barbarian.

[Krow]

SA full attacks are the bread and butter of a physical combat rogue (non UMD). Its perfectly plausible for the player to utilize this in full support of the rules.

As pointed out by my colleagues, there are many strategies around Sneak Attack. Tactical Movement and precision would be his key strategies. Mobile opponents can frustrate or even neutralize his attacks.

Aside from that, there's nothing wrong with having a character like that. Its cool :smallcool:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope. OR Flanking. Being Flanked does not make you flat footed You miss the point entirely. He was saying that a barbarian could be sneak attacked when flat footed. I pointed out that the only reason why you can sneak attack a flat-footed individual is that it denies that individual Dex bonus to AC. Otherwise, it is meaningless. In other words, you can never sneak attack a Barbarian from surprise, despite the fact that he is still flat-footed, because he is not denied dex bonus to AC.


Uncanny Dodge denies a rogue SA only when the Barbarian is flat-footed and not when he's flanked. Sudden Strikers are screwed, however. Improved Uncanny Dodge stops flanking as well, but not for everything.

Improved Uncanny Dodge:


Strong enough rogues can still gain Sneak Attack on a Barbarian.

If you consistently run into monsters with fewer than 5 levels less than you of barbarian, then you can flank them all you want to. Me? I've never seen it come up. Moreso because most people PrC out of Rogue quickly enough that they only have four or five levels themselves.

[ericgrau]

improved uncanny dodge, also granted to barbarians, stops flanks.

Another simple way to stop sneak attack from both the PC and monster ends is AC. Like I said, only 1-2 of those 4 attacks actually hit. Pump AC and it's more like a 75% chance of even getting 1 hit. Then you pound back hard against the fragile rogue. But I also posted work-arounds for the rogue above. Still, with so many problems with actually getting your SA damage (and staying in the fight long enough to keep it up), I see SA more as a wonderful thing to have on top of being a skillmonkey.