Rogue build 3.5

[Ilriyn]

Hey all,

I'm needing some help with a skillmonkey/SA/bluff and charm/sneaky character for a game. I have a few restrictions, I have to be Human, I have a 32 PB, I am limited to core, PHB2, Complete Series, and spell compendium. I am also allowed to use the pathfinder variant of rouge. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/rogue

I was initially thinking of a bow using rouge/shadowdancer, but I decided that didn't really match my character concept, not to mention how completely nerfed the shadowdancer is.

So I would like help optimizing a rouge build, while still having it match my character concept of a skilled, SA and bluff based rouge, while still having some stealth abilities.

I am open to any prestige class, feat, skill trick, maneuvers, etc from the allowed books. Feel free to suggest the best ability scores I could get with a 32 PB. I don't have the complete series though, so if you suggest anything from them, could you give a quick synopsis of what it does, either here, or in a PM?

I am looking to be ranged based, but I wouldn't mind using a rapier or something if using a bow would severely limit my options.

Thanks.

[daggaz]

oooh here it comes... a thousand posts about the difference between makeup and rogues.. :smallsigh:

chronos I think his name is did a pretty decent handbook for rogues that you should look for. It was recently bumped to the first page, maybe even just yesterday..

EDIT: ahh, here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88715)

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, rogue, not rouge. Im deliberately reining in my tendancy to go off on a tangent about this topic, but it's a quite annoyingly common mistake.

Pump dex, pump con. If you've got the points to spare, a little strength or cha doesn't hurt.

Make sure you keep UMD maxed. Also, search, disable device, hide, move silently, and spot. You may get more due to int bonuses, and tumble is also priceless as a rogue, so don't neglect that(at least, until you can reliably hit a DC20 check).

For good damage, rely on sneak attack. Your weapon damage is almost irrelevant, so use whatever works well for you with regards to accuracy. Don't burn precious feats on exotic proficiencies and such.

Keep in mind that as you tend to be in the front of the party more often than is good for you, given trap checking needs, you tend to be targetted sometimes. Any equipment or abilities that contribute to concealment are your best friend.

[Eldariel]

I'd go Whisper Gnome off the hook, probably 12 Cha or so (despite the racial penalty), huge Dex, decent Con, huge Int, decent Wis, dump Str to all hell. Then pick up Weapon Finesse, and if possible, Shadow Blade [Tome of Battle] along with a small dip in Swordsage (I suggest one dip on low levels and one very late when you can pick up ~5th level maneuvers and maybe Assassin's Stance) for very decent melee damage output.

Two-Weapon Fighting is a very solid companion to this given that you just want more chances to apply your Sneak Attack damage.

Alternatively, use a bow and ignore all this. I suggest a Crossbow if going that road, using PHBII's Crossbow Sniper to be able to deal SA damage within 60' range (over normal 30') along with Rapid Reload and some lighter Crossbow so you can reload it as a free action and shoot flurries (Rapid Shot wouldn't hurt either).


Then just pick up the usual Roguish feats like Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] & Craven [Champions of Ruin] along with mayhap Nymph's Kiss [Book of Exalted Deeds] and skill enhancers in general (if you dump Wisdom, Keen Intellect [Dragon Magazine 318; update from Oriental Adventures] is very, very helpful though unfortunately doesn't work for Listen-checks) and go to town.

Never forget to go to town. Oh yeah, and Tyndmyr's advice is rocksolid. Skills are really out there. There's the social set of Diplo/Bluff/Intimidate/Gather Information/Knowledge: Local/Sense Motive, the stealth set of Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen (you'll want that anyways), the trapping set of Search/Disable Device/Open Lock and generally useful stuff like Use Magic Device, Tumble, etc. (you'll want those anyways). So yeah, go with what you feel like.

[Tyndmyr]

Whisper Gnome is an awesome race, but he's stuck with human, apparently, so....at least that's a solid skill monkey race. With a bit of int, you can pick up quite a variety of skills, and there really is no such thing as too many skill points for a rogue.

If you do go crossbow or something else that ignores strength, yeah...dump the hell out of your strength. Weapon Finesse is a common enough rogue feat anyhow that str is always one of the less important stats, but no point investing in it if you aren't using it whatsoever.

If you go crossbow, and arms & equipment is allowed, pick up tumbling bolts. They're cheap enough to be affordable at level 1, and add +2 damage at the price of halving your range increment. At low levels, that can matter.

[Lycanthromancer]

I was gonna say something about playing a painted whore using the sacred prostitute class, but...

Ever consider going factotum, from Dungeonscape? Doesn't exactly roll into sneak attack, but it's much more powerful and generally useful than a rogue is, and can sub in for just about any role in the party, if need be. Including tank.

[Ilriyn]

I don't think that there will be any exceptions as far as rulebooks go, so please suggest only core items, and anything from the complete series.


Whisper Gnome is an awesome race, but he's stuck with human, apparently, so....at least that's a solid skill monkey race. With a bit of int, you can pick up quite a variety of skills, and there really is no such thing as too many skill points for a rogue.

Yes, I am stuck with human, but the extra skill points will help a lot. Perhaps I also put to much emphasis on being a skill monkey when I was writing my first post. I want my character to be good at skills, and many of them. But that's not a gigantic focus, as I'm still wanting my character to be good at combat and feinting. BTW: it would be she's stuck with human. :smallbiggrin: Its all good though.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

[Myou]

Came for the whore jokes, leaving satisfied.

[Eldariel]

I suggested the other stuff simply because there's very little in the allowed books that impacts skills. Tactile Trapsmith [CAdv] makes your Search and Disable Device derive off Dex instead of Int, but beyond that... On the other hand, Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel are great and I'd make sure to pick up as many as you legally can.

And yeah, sounds like a job for a Crossbow Sniper, if ranged combat interests you. Good news that Human gets the bonus feat; Crossbow Archers are notoriously feat-starved. You'll want the Rapid Shot-line, the Crossbow Sniper (which requires Weapon Focus: Any Crossbow) & Rapid Reload (so you can take iteratives once you get them). That's 6 feats right there; gonna last you until level 12.


Magic Item Compendium has stuff that could alleviate it somewhat, but...

[Telonius]

Core and Completes only, so standard Rogue tricks like Craven won't help...

I'd say go with the Pathfinder version, it doesn't lose any power compared to regular Rogue and seems to gain a bit.

I'd strongly suggest one (and only one) level of Master of Masks (CSco) to get yourself the Gladiator mask and proficiency in all weapons. You lose nothing by doing this in Core Rogue, and I think it's still worth it for career-long utility in Pathfinder. Or, you could go for a single level of Ranger at 2, to give yourself proficiency in all martial plus shields, and some other front-loaded goodies.

Pick up some augmentation crystals from MiC. Truedeath crystals let you sneak attack the undead. Another sort ("demolition" I think) lets you sneak Constructs.

For a Ranged Rogue, be aware that your foe has to be denied Dex to AC, and you have to be within 30 ft*, in order for your sneak attack to apply. It's usually only worthwhile to shoot ranged in the surprise round, or if you have some special effect going on (like Greater Invisibility or Blink). The more attacks you get, the more often you'll be applying your sneak attack. It's somewhat complicated (without GI or Blink) to get more than one ranged sneak attack off in a single round. That's why quite a lot of Rogues go the TWF route. The assumption is that they'll be flanking with a melee combatant, so they'll have more hits that can connect and be eligible for flanking.

* - there are Feats that can mitigate this, but feats are precious to a Rogue.

[Doc Roc]

And yeah, sounds like a job for a Crossbow Sniper, if ranged combat interests you. Good news that Human gets the bonus feat; Crossbow Archers are notoriously feat-starved. You'll want the Rapid Shot-line, the Crossbow Sniper (which requires Weapon Focus: Any Crossbow) & Rapid Reload (so you can take iteratives once you get them). That's 6 feats right there; gonna last you until level 12.


Magic Item Compendium has stuff that could alleviate it somewhat, but...

This is the freaking truth. Beg your GM for flaws, or try and buy feats from magical locations and retrain them. Crossbow Archery is really fun, but has only intermediate support.

[Curmudgeon]

You're always going to be feat-poor; that's the lot of the Rogue. You can never have enough of what you need, so it's wise to pick a strategy and try to stick with it. Attempt to remedy the problems using all available options. So get traits and flaws that will help you out. (I recommend the Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) trait; more speed will keep you away from trouble.) Get more feats: from flaws, from race (human is good for that), and from items (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.html).

For instance, since you mentioned you wanted to be mostly a ranged combatant: DUMP CON. Make your strategy be about not getting hit. CON is very nice to have, for pretty much every class. But you can't afford all the nice things you want, and this is one of those tough decisions.

For ranged fighting your best bet is to multiclass with 3 levels of Scout (not more; that's inefficient) and the Swift Ambusher feat (Complete Scoundrel). You'll get full skirmish damage from your Rogue+Scout levels, and will only be 1.5 dice behind on your sneak attack progression.

Next you'll need to solve the 10' move + full attack problem that's the stumbling block of all skirmishers. You can do that with a DC 40 Tumble check (to make a 10' adjustment in place of a 5' step; see Oriental Adventures) eventually, but that's too slow. Instead I recommend getting your Use Magic Device modifier to +20 as fast as you possibly can. There are rules for making custom magic items, and the cost formula for a Skill bonus (competence) item is Bonus2 × 100 gp. Tell your DM that you're looking for a magic item crafter who can make you one of these, for about a +8 boost. (Also tell your DM that the crafter doesn't need ranks in the skill to make the item, because the example used -- Cloak of Elvenkind -- requires no skill ranks for the crafter to give the item a bonus to Hide.) If you start your search early, you should be able to find such a crafter by the time you can afford the cost.

Once you have +20 to your Use Magic Device checks you need to make a big purchase: a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide), for 30,000 gp. (Note the use of Diplomacy to Haggle in Complete Adventurer; you could get this at 9/10 of list price.) Borrow from your friends (party members), because you'll be able to pay most of it back in a month. Then you just make 224 consecutive Use Magic Device checks at DC 21 without failing (which is why you need to be able to succeed on a rolled 1) and you'll have emulated all the class features of a Monk adequately to get the training benefits of the Sparring Dummy: make 10' steps whenever you have the option to make 5' steps. After training sell the item back. (Use Haggle to try to get 10/9 of the usual ½ price, or about 56%.) You'll spend a month of time, plus somewhere from 10,333 gp (best Haggle result) to 15,000 gp (no Haggle discount). But then you'll always be able to get full attacks with skirmish damage.

Skirmish is great, but you also want as much sneak attack damage as you can. Some creatures are immune. You'll be able to afford Greater Demolition and Greater Truedeath weapon augment crystals (Magic Item Compendium) eventually, to do full sneak attack against constructs and undead. There are a couple of alternative class features you should consider. The Penetrating Shot ACF (Dungeonscape) will let you trade trap sense (which you don't need, because trapfinding will let you avoid those traps) for the ability to do ½ normal sneak attack damage -- but only those you flank. If you're serious about staying out of melee, go for the Death's Ruin ACF (Complete Champion) instead. You also lose trap sense, but gain the ability to sneak attack (only) undead for ½ the normal sneak attack dice, and this works at up to 30' range. The dice part of this is important, because you'll want to add Craven as your 6th or 9th level feat; it adds +1 per character level to your sneak attack damage. As this isn't dice damage, it will get multiplied on a critical hit (nice) and won't be halved against undead with Death's Ruin (nicer). Craven is about as important to Rogues as Power Atack is to melee combatants, and is especially nice for multiclass Rogues.

Your most important skills for surviving as a ranged combatant are Use Magic Device (the above-mentioned Sparring Dummy, and access to wands such as Improved Invisibility), Spot, Hide, and Move Silently.

One very nice thing about being a ranged fighter is the advantage it gives you at the start of combat. With maxed-out Spot you're unlikely to be surprised, so you can attack on the surprise round for full sneak attack damage (if within 30'). And then, with good DEX, you'll act before many of the enemies and can pick among the flat-footed targets for a full round of sneak attack plus skirmish (after your 10' step). You won't need to waste sneak attack opportunities closing for melee, and you won't need to go for Improved Initiative since you can pick any enemy who hasn't acted yet as your target. Improved Initiative is important for a melee Rogue, but this is another one of those choices you'll need to make. You can do without this feat.

Weapon selection is where you get to make some other important choices. If you're totally dedicated to getting the most sneak attack and skirmish opportunities you'll want Crossbow Sniper (Players Handbook II) to expand your sneak attack range to 60', Ranged Skirmisher (Dragon # 346, page 87) to do the same for skirmish, and a crossbow with the quick loading enhancement (Magic Item Compendium). Never spend a feat on Rapid Reload; that's a waste of a precious resource when you can use gp to solve the problem instead.

However, I don't recommend this route; it's too expensive. I'd suggest using the composite shortbow you get as a standard class proficiency to avoid spending feats, and using your mobility to get within 30' if necessary. With Quick and your 3rd level Scout fast movement bonus you'll be at 50' movement, and your "not an action" adjustments will be 5' longer than those of your enemy. Again, try to get the best use of your resources. The crossbow path is pretty expensive. Any archer can benefit from Rapid Shot, but Point Blank shot -- the prerequisite -- only works within 30'. Spending 2-3 more feats to get precision damage past 30' will make this prerequisite a dead cost. Try to get full use of your feat investments.

Good luck!

[Ilriyn]

Wow, this all looks great. If I was to go the melee route, what would I need to do?

[Curmudgeon]

Melee is tougher. You'll need high AC; that's more important than high hit points. Skirmish doesn't help nearly as much, so multiclassing with Scout isn't optimal. The safest approach is to head for a level of Shadowdancer ASAP, because their Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is just an awesome ability for a Rogue to have. Plan on having maximum ranks in Move Silently, Hide, and Tumble at every level of your character. You can take Shadowdancer 1 (the only level you'll need) at level 8, after 7 levels of Rogue, but you'd need to plan on getting there from the start. You'll want to buy Mobility as an armor enhancement instead of using up one of your precious feat slots. After you get Shadowdancer 1 at level 8 you'll have the prerequisites for Spring Attack, so make that your level 9 feat.

This approach uses up most of your available feats. You'll want Craven at 6th level. With Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Craven, and Spring Attack you should forget about Two-Weapon Fighting. It's not a good investment because it only gives one extra attack in a round, and only with a full attack action. You're better off spending any other available feats on things like Snap Kick (Tome of Battle). You'll need Improved Unarmed Strike as the prerequisite, but you get that with Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) for only 1,310 gp. Snap Kick gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make a melee attack. So that works with a full attack, just as Two-Weapon Fighting does. But Snap Kick also works with a standard action attack, with a bonus attack (such as from Improved Trip), and with an attack of opportunity. You won't care about the meager unarmed damage if you can get sneak attack damage; it's getting the extra attack that's important to trigger your sneak attack.

Even if you plan on melee most of the time, walk around with a composite shortbow ready to fire. You shouldn't squander opportunities to get sneak attack at the start of combat. Move actions to close on flat-footed opponents are just a waste of sneak attack potential.