MRSA:Magic Resistant Staphylococcus aureus

[Barbarian MD]

As I was writing a backstory for a character in a FR campaign, I was trying to come up with a way to kill off his wife from natural causes. I thought to myself, what about cancer?

But the problem with cancer? Clerics. Those pesky magic healers are everywhere--there's no way cancer would last with magic users.

Or would it?

I'm taking a page from evolutionary biology and proposing that diseases in a magic campaign setting would develop resistance to magic.

If you understand drug resistance, this should make sense. Let's say that all creatures have some potential for magic, it's in their genes (just look at multiclassig adventurers!)

So now you have bacteria, viruses, cancer cells with magic. Not much, and not every one of them, but in a population of a million cells, one of them is a caster.

And so you get sick, and you head to your local cleric. Well, guess what, he's only a low-level caster. And his cure disease spell doesn't meet the caster level check for all the bacterial cells. What's more, he introduces a selective pressure by killing all but the sorcerer bacteria, favoring their proliferation. Well, now the sorcerer bacteria, not having to compete, divides and proliferates. And one of them has a mutation that allows it to level up.

And so on, and so on.

Pretty soon you have freaking gestalt ultimate magus wizard bacteria running amok in the Forgotten Realms, curable only by Epic Wizards with Epic Cure Disease spells.

Scary, no?


Edit to clarify: I used hyperbole to illustrate my point; I don't really expect bacteria or cancer cells to start taking class levels. I would expect them to develop SR, though, becoming resistant to certain spells cast by certain caster levels.

[tonberrian]

Only if they had a hivemind. Otherwise, I think the lower limit on spellcasting due to ability scores might be a problem. You might have more issues if the individual buffs you had also effected the cells - say, your Owl's Wisdom and Owl's Insight together have granted the Druid cells enough Wisdom to cast spells.

[Stegyre]

I like the basic idea. You can even "invent" illnesses or conditions that resist such standys as IHS.

[Saph]

Makes a lot of sense, actually. If everyone in the country's getting a Cure Disease every time they're feeling under the weather, then it shouldn't take long before you start getting magic-resistant strains. Kind of like the story with penicillin.

[Mando Knight]

Bacteria don't have an INT of 3 or greater, so they don't normally gain class levels, and unless there's a hivemind colony of about 20 kg or so of the stuff, there's probably not enough there to even count as having HD. On top of that, there's no way a bacterium has higher CHA or WIS than the average human.

However, it might have SR instead...

[Saph]

Bacteria don't have an INT of 3 or greater, so they don't normally gain class levels, and unless there's a hivemind colony of about 20 kg or so of the stuff, there's probably not enough there to even count as having HD. On top of that, there's no way a bacterium has higher CHA or WIS than the average human.

I wouldn't think of it as them being a caster, I'd just think of it as the bacteria being resistant to whatever whammy a healing spell uses to wipe out disease. As cure-disease spells become universal, the resistant strains thrive, and the others die off.

[Tyger]

This I like, living things evolving in response to the presence/effects of magic. Interesting idea. But...

Its pretty easy to imagine a family that could not scrape together the required gold to pay for a Remove Disease spell. Level three spell, cast by a minimum fifth level cleric. Cost of about 150GP. Or more gold than your average peasant will ever see in their lifetime.

What is interesting here, is that Remove Disease notes that, as it has an "instaneous" duration, the spell doesn't provide ongoing immunity. In the case of a plague or the like, you could get treated with the spell, only to be immediately reinfected (by the very soiled bed linens you are laying on) and your body has generated no natural (or un-natural) antibodies, so you get just as sick all over again. Hope you have a lot of gold!

[Mando Knight]

I wouldn't think of it as them being a caster, I'd just think of it as the bacteria being resistant to whatever whammy a healing spell uses to wipe out disease. As cure-disease spells become universal, the resistant strains thrive, and the others die off.

He was talking about bacteria with caster levels. I'd say it's more likely that it's bacteria with SR, since Remove Disease states that it can be blocked by it.

[lsfreak]

It really depends. Granted that Faerun is very high-magic, but using the rules for spellcasting costs, it's roughly 4 years' wages for a common person to have remove disease cast.

On the reverse, there's really no reason anything but the smallest of churches shouldn't/wouldn't have an auto-resetting remove disease trap (cost is 7500gp).

I'd say spell-resistance disease would work, though a cancer cell or whatever being a caster seems a little much.

[Barbarian MD]

I used caster levels as hyperbole to illustrate my point, but Saph (and others) have hit my thesis right on the nose. It would develop an ever increasing SR.

[Tyger]

Of course, this posits that evolution, or natural selection, is at play in the D&D realm... which erupts into a whole other discussion about why the wizard gene hasn't completely dominated the entire world a long time ago. :)

I think it makes for an interesting campaign idea though. As the "virus" spreads and spreads, toppling more and more areas, and starting to act almost as though it is intelligent, the party would naturally be looking for teh directing mind behind this curse, some fell necromancer or something, while all the time its the disease itself that is the culprit. That smacks of epic awesome game play.

[Barbarian MD]

And a hilarious quest goal:

Step 1) Become epic wizard
Step 2) Create Epic Cure Disease spell
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit

Now, it was all hyperbole before, but can you imagine a virus with caster levels?

Transmission:
Contaminated Water -> Airborne -> Teleport

A doctor is coming, you say? Finger of death.
You want to see a doctor, you say? Charm person.

Although, on the flip side, once a virus can cast "create food and drink", there's not much point in infecting people.

[Eldan]

Alternatively, for evil:

1) Become a Lich Artificer
2) Cross Iron Golems with Bacteria for magic immune diseases
3) ???
4) Laugh like a maniac.

[LibraryOgre]

This is actually something I wished they had done more of in 3e... a lot of the "absolute defenses/cures" could have been handled well with opposed level checks. Shield's protection against Magic Missiles? Even if Azuth is throwing the missiles, and my rogue is using a 1st level scroll of magic missile? Level check. Globes of Invulnerability? Level check. Cure Disease? Level check.

[Clementx]

I also support the simple mechanic of requiring CL checks to overcome it, like mummy rot. Technically all the resistant illnesses require a powerful remove curse, but it is easy to extend it remove disease. Perhaps magic mononucleosis could do the same to resist remove fatigue. Definitely a way to stretch out the threat of illness, at least for a little while.

[Samb]

Clever name.
However, if you want to keep this close to it's real life counterpart it would only have heightened SR to certain spells. Methicillin resistant staph arerus is resistant to almost everything except vancomycin and flagyl. So a magic equivilant should still have treatable with higher level spells, like no SR or very little.

[Kiren]

Zombie cancer!

[Eldan]

I'll add zombie cancer to my list of "planar diseases" tomorrow. I guess you can pick it up in Hades or something.

[Epinephrine]

Pathfinder did something similar. It does allow for disease actually being nasty, especially strains with tough DCs.

Remove Disease (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/remove-disease)
Remove disease can cure all diseases from which the subject is suffering. You must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the DC of each disease affecting the target. Success means that the disease is cured. The spell also kills some hazards and parasites, including green slime and others.

[Kiren]

Zombie cancer was from http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/455919


But off topic from the subject,

You can house rule that the disease must be known by the caster in order to cast cure disease, it can be the first case in which the cause/how the person is dieing is not know.

[Vox Clamantis]

One problem: divine magic is the direct intervention of a god or god-like entity. In order for a virus (or bacterium) to evolve into a resistant strain, some of the existing viruses or bacteria would have to ALREADY be resistant.

And I can't think of a good reason for why a small percentage of either would be resistant to direct divine intervention.

[Clementx]

And I can't think of a good reason for why a small percentage of either would be resistant to direct divine intervention.
Why would some microorganisms be resistant to long-term exposure to a rare chemical oxidizer? Oops, cyanobacteria are photosynthesizing and pumping that deadly compound into the atmosphere?! Oh my, whatever are we going to do? Keep breathing easy (specifically, that deadly deadly oxygen), like we have for 2.4 billion years.

Evolution: It Works, Bitches !

[Mr. Mud]

So, what would the magic resistant spells do against things like Dispel Magic and Disjunction? :smallconfused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, what would the magic resistant spells do against things like Dispel Magic and Disjunction? :smallconfused:

Spells are neither living organisms nor have the ability to mutate.

[LibraryOgre]

One problem: divine magic is the direct intervention of a god or god-like entity. In order for a virus (or bacterium) to evolve into a resistant strain, some of the existing viruses or bacteria would have to ALREADY be resistant.

Let us assume, for a moment, that science works in D&D; this is by no means assured, but let's assume that disease is usually caused by microscopic organisms and pseudo-organisms, that reproduce by invading cells and using their material to build copies of themselves... much like bacteria and virii do in the real world. We're going to assume that the passage of traits works on a genetic basis, and that both mutation and evolution function normally.

Well, first of all, we know that resistance to divine power is possible; a creature with SR resists divine magic just as well as arcane. We also know that it is heritable, as many creatures with SR pass that SR on to their offspring. It is thus possible that a mutation would result in magic resistant strains of viruses... since SR can come from genetics, then it is possible for SR to appear spontaneously in a species through mutation.

Would this be an advantageous mutation, however? Well, virii without SR would instantly fall to Remove Disease, whereas virii with SR might survive. That's an evolutionary advantage, assuming it isn't saddled with a crippling disadvantage (e.g. the virus is now so potent it instantly kills its host, robbing the virus of the opportunity to breed and spread). Since Remove Disease did not kill the virii with SR, they along are left to breed and spread. The person quickly becomes sick again, and this time, Remove Disease does not work. The sickness spreads through ordinary vectors.

This works so long as you assume that diseases are contracted and spread in the usual fashion and that traits are heritable.

[chiasaur11]

You know, that'd be an ace way for a Ur-Priest to get people to ditch gods.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, that'd be an ace way for a Ur-Priest to get people to ditch gods.

Only if he has a better way of curing it.

[Emmerask]

As I was writing a backstory for a character in a FR campaign, I was trying to come up with a way to kill off his wife from natural causes. I thought to myself, what about cancer?

But the problem with cancer? Clerics. Those pesky magic healers are everywhere--there's no way cancer would last with magic users.

Or would it?

I'm taking a page from evolutionary biology and proposing that diseases in a magic campaign setting would develop resistance to magic.

If you understand drug resistance, this should make sense. Let's say that all creatures have some potential for magic, it's in their genes (just look at multiclassig adventurers!)

So now you have bacteria, viruses, cancer cells with magic. Not much, and not every one of them, but in a population of a million cells, one of them is a caster.

And so you get sick, and you head to your local cleric. Well, guess what, he's only a low-level caster. And his cure disease spell doesn't meet the caster level check for all the bacterial cells. What's more, he introduces a selective pressure by killing all but the sorcerer bacteria, favoring their proliferation. Well, now the sorcerer bacteria, not having to compete, divides and proliferates. And one of them has a mutation that allows it to level up.

And so on, and so on.

Pretty soon you have freaking gestalt ultimate magus wizard bacteria running amok in the Forgotten Realms, curable only by Epic Wizards with Epic Cure Disease spells.

Scary, no?


Edit to clarify: I used hyperbole to illustrate my point; I don't really expect bacteria or cancer cells to start taking class levels. I would expect them to develop SR, though, becoming resistant to certain spells cast by certain caster levels.

In the Faerun setting many people die to diseases there simply are not enough clerics to cure everyone.
you only have a problem if you or your wife/family etc where important (nobles/rich merchants etc) at that time because then chances would be high to get a cleric to cure your wife otherwise just go with the died from whatever disease you want ;)

you could also go with an antimagic disease (disease manufactured by some evil wizard that has a antimagic field (very small) emminating from virus/bacteria.
(Yes this would be kind of stolen from the Cormyr Saga was it I guess? they had some antimagic poisen there)

[MickJay]

Colour me unconvinced, but there is nothing to support the idea that diseases in D&D work in any similar way to "our" diseases. It's impossible to create an "anti-Osmium" bomb, because there is no such thing as Osmium in D&D, there are four elements (fire, earth, air, water) instead, of which everything else is made (and there is nothing to support the existence of any form of antimatter, either). The diseases most likely get caused by "bad air", "miasma" or lack of humoral balance in the ill person's body. Once you start fiddling with RL science, the last shreds of whatever made D&D setting credible in any way just disappear.

There would be nothing wrong, on the other hand, with designing an item, or spell, with increased caster level (for the purpose of making the disease more difficult to dispel), or with inherent resistance to attempts to cure or dispel it.

[Epinephrine]

Colour me unconvinced, but there is nothing to support the idea that diseases in D&D work in any similar way to "our" diseases. It's impossible to create an "anti-Osmium" bomb, because there is no such thing as Osmium in D&D, there are four elements (fire, earth, air, water) instead, of which everything else is made (and there is nothing to support the existence of any form of antimatter, either).

I disagree. The SRD spells it out:


Material Plane

The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.

[Eldan]

Actually, that's pretty much contradicted by a lot of evidence... a more correct description would be, in my opinion:

"The material plane follows a set of laws superficially similar to those of our own when examined with the tools of medieval "science", as long as no magic is involved."

See: Falling speeds, conservation of momentum, totally impossible, but native creatures, creation by gods, suns being sources of positive energy, crystal spheres around solar systems.

[Foryn Gilnith]

suns being sources of positive energy, crystal spheres around solar systems.

The what now?

As for MRSA, couldn't the gods just evolve a new spell? Call it "abjure disease", make it the same level, grant it automatically to all clerics (because of the way their spell list works)? Removing disease seems a pretty big boon for clerics, and deities would be unlikely to appreciate its weakening.

[Eldan]

Well, okay, the above is Planejammer, but still. Plants grow because they use the positive energy from the sun. Didn't you know that? :smalltongue:

[Epinephrine]

Actually, that's pretty much contradicted by a lot of evidence... a more correct description would be, in my opinion:

"The material plane follows a set of laws superficially similar to those of our own when examined with the tools of medieval "science", as long as no magic is involved."
Well, the system makes approximations for playability, but the line about the material plane certainly shouldn't be discarded just because they didn't want to force people to solve quadratic equations to figure out falling distances.


See: Falling speeds
Not that bad - 150 feet in the first round, 300 feet in the next. How's that work for physics, as an approximation? Well, they got the acceleration concept, and they got the terminal velocity concept - not bad. The speed of fall may be a little different - possibly the planet has earth-like gravity, but less mass, as you don't fall as quickly as in life. It could also be that since the rounds are discretised, they are trying to take that into account.


, conservation of momentum,
Well, this is sacrificed for playability, yet it remains in some rules - running in straight lines, flight turning radii and so on.


, totally impossible, but native creatures,
Well, there is magic. No denying that that part of the game isn't in our physics, but that doesn't mean you can throw the baby out with the bathwater - the world itself can still follow our laws.


, creation by gods,
Hey, some people believe this world was created by god(s). In fact, despite a lack of evidence for it, even famous physicists (not Einstein, though - that much is clear) have been known to credit the creation of the universe to god(s).


suns being sources of positive energy,
If they are, we may simply lack the ability to detect it. We still don'[t know whether dark energy exists, for example.


crystal spheres around solar systems.
Ok, that's a little out there, but it doesn't mean that our physics is different, just that the world is different (which we know...).

[Barbarian MD]

Ok. Let's stop before this thread derails and crashes into innocent cat-girl bystanders.

I was just trying to say that, "Sure, my character could have died from cancer, if it was magic cancer."

[MickJay]

I disagree. The SRD spells it out:

It might spell it out, but pretty much everything about workings of D&D world contradict it... if you accept modern physics as basis for the workings of the universe, then all the "elemental" stuff, for example, stops making any sense.

Laws of physics might be similar, but they have either different causes, or are sufficiently different from real ones to make it clear that things don't work like they do IRL. Take terminal velocity for example: air resistance is constant, regardless of the weigth or shape of the falling things, because no matter what you throw off a cliff, it will end up falling at the same speed. Even if it's just a simplification for the sake of smoother gameplay, RAW contradict any claims that physics works the same way as it does in reality.

[Barbarian MD]

Stuff

Not trying to single you out, MickJay, but--again--I'm not interested in how many cat girls we can kill. I don't want this to devolve into an argument about DND physics--there's already enough threads on this board about that.

Let's focus on the, "huh, this is an interesting idea" (or "that's silly") aspect.

[LibraryOgre]

The what now?

As for MRSA, couldn't the gods just evolve a new spell? Call it "abjure disease", make it the same level, grant it automatically to all clerics (because of the way their spell list works)? Removing disease seems a pretty big boon for clerics, and deities would be unlikely to appreciate its weakening.

That assumes that spell level is chosen by the deities, not inherent to the power of the spell. After all, if "Abjure Disease" is inherently more powerful (i.e. can deal with all of Remove Disease's situations, and more), and gods can still stick it at the same level, why not stick Cure Moderate Wounds at 1st level? Or Heal?

[jiriku]

Rather than the spell resistance / level check mechanic, you could instead tie remove disease into the Heal skill.

Normally, you recover from a disease by making three saving throws against in a row, checking in intervals of 24 hours after infection. Remove disease could entitle you to an immediate extra saving throw against the disease, with success curing you immediately as if you'd passed three saves in a row. The casting cleric makes a Heal check, and remove disease grants a bonus to the check equal to CL or 5 + CL or something. The victim can subitute the Heal check result for his Fort save as normal.

This puts more value in the Heal skill, which is an oft-neglected skill, and you can even create remove disease-resistant diseases without altering the save DC of the disease by specifying that Heal checks to treat the disease take X penalty.

[MickJay]

It is an interesting idea, definitely worth developing, just needs some thought on how to implement it without turning all the rules upside down. Treating disease as a peculiar version of a spell with resistance to being dispelled, or increasing difficulty of remove disease to cancel the effect seem to me to be easiest to use.

[Set]

Spell Resistance is one way to go, giving a disease a form of 'concealment' versus Remove Disease would be another option, particularly appropriate to magical or extraplanar illnesses (having a flat 20% chance of being 'missed' by a remove disease spell, or even 'total concealment' for a 50% chance of being 'missed' by the spell!).

Depending on the rules, you could just make remove disease a non-automatic success, and have it only give the recipient an immediate Fort save at +10 to throw off the effects of the disease. (Or create a lower level spell that adds +5 or so to the Fort save, and make remove disease the 'big gun.')

You could even 'retcon' a bit and say that remove disease *used* to be an automatic cure, but since the Great Working from the temple of light and mercy created the 'Plague of Light' that jumped from person to person and purged them of all mundane diseases (vectoring itself like a disease, like a potentially infinite chain remove disease), the diseases currently afflicting the world are all descended from the *survivors* of the Great Working, and all are resilient enough / unnatural enough to reduce the effectiveness of the remove disease spell. That would be why this world doesn't have diseases like 'the flu' or 'leprosy' or 'African sleeping sickness,' but instead has diseases with names like Cackle Fever, Red Ache and Slimy Doom. All that 'other stuff' was already killed by remove disease effects, leaving behind the more evolved / extraplanar / magically tainted stuff that's harder to cure.

Needless to say, the Temple of Light & Mercy is still recovering from that PR debacle. Yeah, they cured thousands of people, but also ensured that remove disease was no longer the panacea people had grown used to it being, as new and more hardy diseases were left to thrive in it's wake.

[LibraryOgre]

Needless to say, the Temple of Light & Mercy is still recovering from that PR debacle. Yeah, they cured thousands of people, but also ensured that remove disease was no longer the panacea people had grown used to it being, as new and more hardy diseases were left to thrive in it's wake.

Bah. Everyone knows that it's a Pelorian plot to trap more people in their evil tentacles.

[Epinephrine]

Rather than the spell resistance / level check mechanic, you could instead tie remove disease into the Heal skill.

I do like this; it reminds me a bit of spells like Healing Lorecall and Listening Lorecall, that have effects dependent on the number of ranks invested in a skill.

Looks like we have a few neat ideas floating around - magic resistant disease, caster level checks, skill-based solutions, a failure rate based on the disease simply "hiding". Food for thought - I do like the idea that a disease can actually be a scary thing for a PC - that they could be in a race against time to find someone with enough knowledge/power to cure them.

[Tyrmatt]

Just a minor point, from the perspective of blind healing via potion etc, a tumour is nothing more than living tissue. It should actually grow faster if you dose a player with healing juice. Perhaps divine magic is smart enough to kill off what should be the "bad part" but from the perspective of someone who most likely relies on potions as a source of healing, i.e. the plebian masses in a world where alchemy is common etc, excessive use of healing potions to overcome cancer processes should have the unintended consequence of killing the person.

Kinda like giving steroids to someone with a bacterial infection or what have you.

[Gametime]

Just a minor point, from the perspective of blind healing via potion etc, a tumour is nothing more than living tissue. It should actually grow faster if you dose a player with healing juice. Perhaps divine magic is smart enough to kill off what should be the "bad part" but from the perspective of someone who most likely relies on potions as a source of healing, i.e. the plebian masses in a world where alchemy is common etc, excessive use of healing potions to overcome cancer processes should have the unintended consequence of killing the person.

Kinda like giving steroids to someone with a bacterial infection or what have you.

Doesn't one of the world-enders from Elder Evils do something like that? Ragnorra, maybe? The world becomes flooded in positive energy that starts just healing people, but eventually starts creating mutations and deadly tumors as tissues grows and regenerates at lethal rates.

Think of all the fodder for the D&D tabloids. "My cleric healed me into cancer!"

[Saintheart]

If the setting is Faerun prior to 4E, then I think a perfect Petrie Dish for magic-resistant bacteria might be wild magic zones.

Could class it as brutal Darwinism: if magic laws are so wild in these areas, with random effects going off now and then, bacteria eventually are going to start developing spell resistance as a function of evolutionary biology.