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Hal
2009-11-04, 12:13 PM
Thinking about possible boss encounters for my players, I was imagining a scenario wherein two adventuring parties converge in a dungeon on the boss (ala Kefka's Tower in Final Fantasy 6). There is something epically attractive about 10-12 characters making a stand in a climactic battle.

But how do you do it right? Just setting the boss in the middle of the room and letting the players pound on him until he's out of hit points . . . that's boring. Throwing waves of mooks at them . . . that's going to slow things down tremendously. You could give the boss abilities that lets him take characters out of combat temporarily, but too much of that and you defeat the purpose of the expanded-scale combat.

So, my next thought was, well, give the players something to do in battle besides wailing on the boss. But what? Let's have some inspiration from the playground. I'm not restricting the question to a single system or edition, since some of the principles can be transferred easily and the details worked out later. Still, feel free to zero in on something specific if you've done something similar before.

Random832
2009-11-04, 01:05 PM
How about something like force field generators that have to be disabled in remote locations (i.e. takes half a dozen or so rounds to get there and back) to make damage more effective.

Really anything you do other than "everyone's running around hitting the boss" is going to result in some players being out of combat for some period of time - you could have them have their own challenges to face on the way (a guard that takes a couple hits to go down), or send them on a snack run.

The boss could have multiple phases and people have to operate switches in different configurations to be able to hit each phase effectively

AstralFire
2009-11-04, 01:11 PM
Just beware that anything you do to improve the mechanics of the fight will make it take longer. I've had some crazy boss fight mechanics (for a P&P game) and players always loved it by the end, but there were moments when we'd all be like "DUDE JUST TAKE YOUR TURN AND DO IT FAST."

Sploosh
2009-11-04, 01:33 PM
Four generators around the boss making him untouchable with adds swarming from different directions, each being handled differently. One of them must be kited around away from others. The weakest form of mooks occasionally drop a sphere that must be passed to the generator but those holding it cannot move.

Four minibosses around the boss, each coming out after the next is defeated. When all four are defeated, animated objects appear and must be dealt with. Shorrtly after all the objects are dealt with, all four minibosses are healed and attack at once and the boss grows bored and announces he is about to get involved.

Portals that appear near certain sections of the room for a duration of one to two character's turns (only two players have the time to act) where they must enter and fight another boss inside at the same time before leaving and having other people swap in.

These are a few ways to make combat with additional monsters a little more dynamic. Bonus points if anyone gets these and addtional points if you did it for an attunement for the first two.

Hal
2009-11-04, 01:48 PM
Four generators around the boss making him untouchable with adds swarming from different directions, each being handled differently. One of them must be kited around away from others. The weakest form of mooks occasionally drop a sphere that must be passed to the generator but those holding it cannot move.

Four minibosses around the boss, each coming out after the next is defeated. When all four are defeated, animated objects appear and must be dealt with. Shorrtly after all the objects are dealt with, all four minibosses are healed and attack at once and the boss grows bored and announces he is about to get involved.

Portals that appear near certain sections of the room for a duration of one to two character's turns (only two players have the time to act) where they must enter and fight another boss inside at the same time before leaving and having other people swap in.

These are a few ways to make combat with additional monsters a little more dynamic. Bonus points if anyone gets these and addtional points if you did it for an attunement for the first two.

Y'know, my game of choice is 4E. Considering the comparisons it draws, these mechanics aren't going to help.

jiriku
2009-11-04, 02:03 PM
Include dozens or even hundreds of durable devices that must be smashed. Brain in a jar, gestating clone, vat of psychic ooze, pylon for the gate summoning the end of the world, support pillar for the room, whatever, it doesn't matter. Just lots of them that need to be deliberately broken in order to achieve success.

Include a debilitating environmental effect that can be eliminated through concerted player action. For example, a raging sandstorm is blowing through from outside, harming players and impairing visibility and spellcasting, but doesn't affect the BBEG. Great iron shutters can slowly be winched closed to block the sand-laden winds, leveling the playing field somewhat.

Melamoto
2009-11-04, 02:20 PM
Try using something that means that people will have to move fairly regularly, or suffer consequences. Perhaps you could use the Laser Pointer idea from Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/9/30/), and have the mirrors change regularly. Do it in a pattern that can be recognised, and make people who stay inside it take fire damage each turn. Of course, that's probably a little overkill or difficult, but as long as you set it up right it should be easy to rotate the mirrors each turn. Taking more ideas from PA, you could also use have the floor shatter halfway through the fight and deal with a number of rounds using the free fall rules (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/8/7/).

valadil
2009-11-04, 02:36 PM
If possible try to create a battle where the map is changing. Walking on magical forcefields is one to do this. Putting the fight on a series of boats is a lower magic way to achieve it. You need to make getting to the enemy a part of the challenge.

I've also had good luck with big fights in castles. The map doesn't change, but the dynamic will. Give the players some time to fortify themselves. When you break those fortifications they'll fall back (and obviously you need to give a reason why they won't start from the fallen back position). As the enemy encroaches, players will have to decide between moving away to another part of the battle or sticking it out and fighting. I've done a couple fights like this with almost all minions, and they've been more epic than even my big boss fights.

boomwolf
2009-11-04, 02:36 PM
A good "Boss Fight" does not necessarily have any targets other then the boss, you only have to make the boss a move unique target.

I find well-played dragons to be great bosses, especially against a player that never faced dragon tactics. (fly in, breath, fly out. snatch, fly up, throw on someone else, and many more things.)

See LotR nazgul-on-fellbeast tactics to have an idea on how to handle dragons as unique encounters.

If you DO wish to run a dragon boss, I recommend reading dracomicon. it gives not only a handful of handy feats, new dragon types, and items-but a dragon tactical guide. and using it I made dragons in my games turn from "yet another flying boss" into something quite out of this world.



The key to a good boss fight is usually this: you are in HIS area, and HE set up the place, shaped it, trapped it, and he knows every inch of it.
The place is built in such way that he can use his own abilities to the fullest.

A really small opponent? have a few "main" chambers, with tunnels connecting them in a way he fits in, but players does not.

A giant flying beast? (dragon) a huge flat plate with a vast open air above.

An extremely fast, nimble and maneuverable assassin? a maze filled with traps and secret passages might suit him.


A good thing to remember-being a "Boss" does not mean you are standing around in a throne room waiting for others, you can always be a part of the dungeon, moving around and preforming the same hit-and-run the heroes usually play on your mooks.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 02:40 PM
Y'know, my game of choice is 4E. Considering the comparisons it draws, these mechanics aren't going to help.

So? As long as your players haven't been sucked in by the OMG MMO BURN IT propaganda it should be fine. It's not like your game has to be the PR posterboy for 4e.

Brendan
2009-11-04, 03:30 PM
Perhaps several high power illusions that make you not sure if the NPC is stabbing the enemy or at -8hp. Halucinatory terrain, major image, and maybe some shadow evocations could be great. Maybe homebrew a version that only functions as a focus is in good condition and floating in the center of the area.
Also, a heavily shielded mook or two with healing wands used on the big boss every round would add another goal. Finally, If you start it out with diplomacy, and let it go well, with the big boss almost being on their side, but then the other squad barges in and flails the weapons around and the fight begins, the big boss deciding that you were in on it the whole time.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-04, 03:36 PM
At the end of Quest for Glory V, you fight a dragon. You have the help of several other people... Elsa von Spielburg, her minotaur friend, Toro, a Frankenstein's monster type, one of two wizards you opted to resurrect... I think someone else, too. In addition to pounding on the dragon, you're also trying to keep these two pillars upright... because if the pillars fall, the dragon is much more powerful.

Thane of Fife
2009-11-04, 04:15 PM
While it could very possibly not work with your setting, I'm having a mental image of this dungeon being a giant robot/golem, with the PCs needing to fiddle with the controls to keep it from smashing through villages and cities and killing innocent bystanders.

Or the normal controls could be smashed, so they have to climb around on the outside of the golem and operate the manual rudders or what-have-you. While the villain is trying to knock them off, I guess.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-04, 04:32 PM
I'd go with the traditional saving victims from hellacious death traps while the boss tries to stop you.

Dimers
2009-11-04, 05:16 PM
Have the PCs face a similar-sized group of opponents, each one of which is designed to pick on one or two PCs while being vulnerable to only one PC's specialty. I saw this idea really well-done in Icewind Dale II, near the end, where you could sidetrack a bit to fight a group of six minibosses for a holy avenger. Each miniboss basically only took one kind of damage: piercing, fire, bludgeoning, what-have-you.

As a separate idea -- the BBEG could have several helpers who disarm, trip, grapple, and bullrush the PCs into traps or disadvantageous positions. This works well for a BBEG who works with big critters, of course.

As yet another idea, combine vision-blockers with almost any idea in this thread. You can't see the dragon boss swooping down to grab you ... hitting the shield-remover causes you to teleport to yet another identical 5-foot corridor, from which you have to find your way back to the main room ... the sounds of movement nearby might be a mook or might be the Big Bad, so you have to decide whether to blow a high-level AoE on it ... it's not easy to heal people you can't see ... you've got to get within the BBEG's reach in order to target it with your nasty SoD ...