Cthulhu vs Melkor (AKA Morgoth) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Executor

2009-11-04, 02:26 PM

Cthulhu: Ancient alien eldritch horror from beyond the depths of time and space.

Melkor (AKA Morgoth): God of evil, older than the world in which he dwells, capable of limitless evil and cruelty.

Two ancient terrors beyond the human comprehension, able to petrify their foes with raw fear, and dominate the minds of mere mortals with their sheer strength of will.

So suppose Cthulhu crashes down onto Arda rather than Earth as we know it? He comes down somewhere in the North, and naturally gains the attention of Morgoth, who does not look too kindly on a new rival. This is Morgoth before he diffused his power into creating orcs and trolls and all those foul things, so he's still an immensely powerful Valar. Who wins in this clash of otherworldly abominations?

AstralFire

2009-11-04, 02:57 PM

xPANCAKEx

2009-11-04, 03:30 PM

cthulhu by a long long long loooooong margin

and thats even without a cult or any spawn at his disposal. You can't defeat Cthulhu, meerly contain him

industrious

2009-11-04, 03:35 PM

I think we should just have a list of beings that can defeat Cthulhu instead.

The Tygre

2009-11-04, 03:49 PM

I think we should just have a list of beings that can defeat Cthulhu instead.

So far all I've got are creatures that can actually fight Cthulhu;

- Other Great Old Ones
- Eva Units
- Godzilla and most other Toho dai-kaiju
- Teddy Roosevelt

Aaand that's about it. He's supposed to be the strongest of the Great Old Ones (although I imagine all Great Old Ones tell their worshippers that), the god of war and destruction (according to the Necronomicon), and the Hight Priest of Azathoth. Although I suppose an -actual- Outer God could take him.

hamishspence

2009-11-04, 03:50 PM

Ungoliant came across as something of a Cthulhuish creature- and she beat Morgoth. On the other hand, she was also driven off by a pack of balrogs.

The Star-spawn of Cthulhu weren't able to beat the Elder Things of Antarctica- who have a long career of creating/manipulating life forms, as exemplified by their creations, the Shoggoths.

Though I'm not sure how much more powerful Cthulhu is, than his spawn.

It is possible that Sauron, might also be very powerful, at the height of his power.

CarpeGuitarrem

2009-11-04, 03:55 PM

First off, Sauron isn't nearly as powerful as you make him out to be. Your description applies far better to Morgoth. Sauron vs. Cthulhu is ridiculously lopsided against Sauron.

Morgoth, who is supposed to be an unkillable being from the dawn of time...yeah, that's a fairer match. Except that he got taken down by a singing elven maiden.

hamishspence

2009-11-04, 03:57 PM

he also- at that point- had diffused most of his power into Middle Earth (according to Morgoth's Ring)

At his lowest (vs Fingolfin, for example) he was weaker than Sauron was at his highest (after forging the Ring, but before the downfall of Numenor)

Drakyn

2009-11-04, 04:11 PM

Something to keep in perspective here: the entire Middle-earth univermultigalazyversewhateverthehell is completely different from the Cthulu Mythos's.
Putting Cthulu in a universe where things like him don't exist, Azathoth is just a word, there are no slumbering squamous horrors in the sea, and beholding the true face of the cosmos inspires awe and wonder rather than instant madness and despair should automatically change everything about him. It'd be like an orang-utan in a British Columbian rainforest, or a polar bear at the south pole. Or rather, because those examples imply deliberately PLACING something where it shouldn't be (and subtly hinting that it's going to die out there, which isn't my point) imagine a desert with a permanent population of orang-utans that live according to their natural, original ecological behaviour.
It just doesn't work. You need Lovecraft's "ecology" for something like Cthulu to act like Cthulu, and the world of LotR isn't anything like it. His universe has the creator be a blind, mindless, gibbering thing. Tolkien's was sung into being by a heavenly choir.

Starscream

2009-11-04, 04:14 PM

I think we should just have a list of beings that can defeat Cthulhu instead.

http://a31.idata.over-blog.com/500x421/2/45/12/30/TARDIS-Chronicles/Aquaman-Cthulhu.jpg

That's one...Sorry, had to.

In all seriousness (or at least as much as vs. threads warrant:smallbiggrin:), Cthulu would pwn Sauron.

Isak

2009-11-04, 04:15 PM

So far all I've got are creatures that can actually fight Cthulhu;

- Other Great Old Ones
- Eva Units
- Godzilla and most other Toho dai-kaiju
- Teddy Roosevelt

Aaand that's about it. He's supposed to be the strongest of the Great Old Ones (although I imagine all Great Old Ones tell their worshippers that), the god of war and destruction (according to the Necronomicon), and the Hight Priest of Azathoth. Although I suppose an -actual- Outer God could take him.

While I agree that the other Great Old Ones could take Cthulhu down... I don't think the others could. Maybe Eva 01 at the end of EoE... It is technically a God at that point.

My opinion? Choughinga Gurren Lagann or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann could take Mr. Squid Head without much of a fight. Sure, he can try to drive them to insanity, but SIMON'S DRILL WILL STILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!

(Sorry, had too :smalltongue:)

Back on topic, however...

This really is a one sided fight. Sure, Sauron can have continents dropped on his head; but Cthulhu is a true God, where as Sauron is really only a Demi-God level being. Morgoth is a much better match up in this situation, but I'm pretty sure even he would get stomped.

SurlySeraph

2009-11-04, 04:19 PM

Sauron is less powerful than his boss. I forget who his boss is.
His boss fought an elf or a man or some kinda finnish dude named for golf to a standstill.
That's right, his boss couldn't beat a finnish manelf named for golf.
Cthulu is not supposed to be counterable with anything man can do.

Cthulu was defeated by a steamboat. Temporarily, granted, but if he doesn't have the dexterity or strength to stop a small ship from driving through his face, I doubt he can reliably hit an elven war hero with centuries of combat experience and heroic willpower who's prancing around and stabbing him in the ankles.

With that said, Sauron's a somewhat easier target, given that he's kinda mediocre at direct combat and focuses on manipulating people. His first instinct on learning of Cthulu would probably be to find a way to bring him under his control. This would be futile, of course, what with Big C's alien cognition, but he'd try it. Then he'd just raise a big army with various elite warriors to help him kill Cthulu.
An army probably wouldn't work very well against Cthulu. Granted, an organized, prepared, and well-lead force would fare better than a terrified steamship crew, but the maddening gaze and grabbing tentacles and hugeness wouldn't be good for morale. And orcs aren't exactly known for being steadfast and reliable soldiers.
However, Sauron has access to things that can do more than just fire a few arrows at Cthulu and then run gibbering in terror. Balrogs, for example. Dragons, for another. Cthulu's extremely tough of course, but I don't think any aquatic organism will do very well when engulfed in flames.

I'm not saying Sauron will win; without help, he probably won't. But I think this is a lot closer than people are making it out to be.

Executor

2009-11-04, 04:19 PM

Upon further consideration, yes Melkor is a better match-up for Cthulhu than Sauron. I edited the initial post, and the title of the thread.

So, the new question: Cthulhu vs Morgoth? Who wins in this battle of raw evil?

xPANCAKEx

2009-11-04, 04:20 PM

ghostbusters could beat cthulhu

Dienekes

2009-11-04, 04:32 PM

However, Sauron has access to things that can do more than just fire a few arrows at Cthulu and then run gibbering in terror. Balrogs, for example. Dragons, for another. Cthulu's extremely tough of course, but I don't think any aquatic organism will do very well when engulfed in flames.

nitpick

fairly certain that Morgoth had access to dragons and balrogs.

Sauron had fell beasts and ringwraiths, essentially the cheap knock-offs.

chiasaur11

2009-11-04, 04:58 PM

Drascin

2009-11-04, 05:00 PM

So far all I've got are creatures that can actually fight Cthulhu;

- Other Great Old Ones
- Eva Units
- Godzilla and most other Toho dai-kaiju
- Teddy Roosevelt

Aaand that's about it. He's supposed to be the strongest of the Great Old Ones (although I imagine all Great Old Ones tell their worshippers that), the god of war and destruction (according to the Necronomicon), and the Hight Priest of Azathoth. Although I suppose an -actual- Outer God could take him.

I can add a dozen more easily.

Cthulhu isn't really anywhere near the top of the mythos. His main advntage is that the standard human mind goes "wait, WHAT" on seeing him - he's a priest, not a fighter. The infamous steamboat episode, as mentioned, shows that he isn't exactly... quick on the uptake :smalltongue:.

With that in mind... anything at the top level of the Nasuverse (starting with biggest Dead Apostles, passing Archetype: Earth AKA Arcueid and ending on TYPEs and ORT) could own Cthulhu. Zelretch himself is pretty much Nyarlathothep but a lot more personable :smallbiggrin:.

TTGL, as mentioned before, wouldn't find it even much of a fight, and same goes for most Super Robot shows. It's been proven mindbreaking powers do not work easily on brains powered by blood at a hundred degrees celsius.

Also, I'm betting Rincewind could do it if you give him half a brick in a sock :smallbiggrin:.

GoC

2009-11-04, 07:03 PM

I'd like to add anything from the char-op boards to the list of things that can kill Cthulhu.:smallcool:

Sauron can have continents dropped on his head
:smallsigh:

puppyavenger

2009-11-04, 07:15 PM

plenty of things can kill Cthulhu in the Mythos as well, it's just they can't appear as anything more substantive as a zen parable without making the planet go "SQUISH"

in the topic,, does Melkor get his armies? more importantly, are the stars right?

if so, Big C does his end-of-the-world dance, as the big boys of the Mythos (above-mentioned world "SQUISH"ers) come to play.

if not, he goes to sleep until the answer is yes.

snoopy13a

2009-11-04, 07:59 PM

That's it?

A few more, right off the top of my head:

Squirrel Girl
Granny Weatherwax
DEATH
X-Com (with insane losses)
Ghostbusters

And from what I heard, in the original Lovecraft he was "just" high priest of the great old ones. Not something to sneeze at, sure, but not the top spot.

You forgot Coach Ditka :smalltongue:

Zeta Kai

2009-11-04, 08:00 PM

A properly-prepared 21st-level Wizard (3.5E, natch) should have no problem with Cthulhu, or anything else that the Lovecraftiverse can throw at 'em.

In a fair fight between Morgoth & Cthulhu, my money's on the former Valar. He's second only to Eru Iluvatar Himself in terms of power in his respective universe, & Cthulhu just a servant of much more powerful forces.

chiasaur11

2009-11-04, 08:05 PM

You forgot Coach Ditka :smalltongue:

I was just doing some examples. I also left out Bill Brasky.

Matar

2009-11-04, 08:08 PM

Few things:

Cthulhu basically owns anything with a human mind. Someone like Melkor though... I bet Melkor would be fine.

Cthulhu wasn't beaten by the steam-boat. From the best of my understanding, the stars were never right to begin with. All the steam-boat did was put him back to sleep, that's all. At least, that's how I understood it.

Now, if it's Cthulhu VS Melkor... I would bet on Cthulhu. However, I don't really see Melkor fighting the Cthulhu alone. I mean, why should he? He has a freaking army! So I'm betting on Melkor.

But yeah, Cthulhu is really over-rated power whys. He's not THAT god like. He's just... impossible for humans to comprehend, I guess.

The Vorpal Tribble

2009-11-04, 08:19 PM

That's it?

A few more, right off the top of my head:

Squirrel Girl
Granny Weatherwax
DEATH
X-Com (with insane losses)
Ghostbusters
Death? But you have to remember, in strange eons even death may die...

chiasaur11

2009-11-04, 08:29 PM

Death? But you have to remember, in strange eons even death may die...

Yes.

Because DEATH killed him. With an ordinary scythe powered by pure rage.

Sure, he's a nice guy, likes cats, has a World's Best Grandpa mug...

But when you get right down to it...

He kills things. Like wizards, demons, basic concepts of reality, Rock and Roll...

Woodsman

2009-11-04, 08:51 PM

Rock and Roll...

But... but rock and roll will never die!

Cracklord

2009-11-04, 09:07 PM

So far all I've got are creatures that can actually fight Cthulhu;

- Other Great Old Ones
- Eva Units
- Godzilla and most other Toho dai-kaiju
- Teddy Roosevelt

Aaand that's about it. He's supposed to be the strongest of the Great Old Ones (although I imagine all Great Old Ones tell their worshippers that), the god of war and destruction (according to the Necronomicon), and the Hight Priest of Azathoth. Although I suppose an -actual- Outer God could take him.

And Cthulhu could withstand Nuclear explosions none the worse for wear. Before atom bombs were actually invented.

He could perhaps even fight Winston Churchill (If the stars were right and Winston had been hitting the bottle very hard beforehand and wasn't feeling his best, and had just single-handedly beaten the Nazi's so was a bit tired, and didn't have his cigar and tophat of total badassitude, and tommy-gun of Chicago gangsterness).

However, I have to bet on Melkor. He was theoretically powerful enough to rip the world apart (as in break chunks of it the size of the moon).
Cthulhu is very much an immovable object, but Melkor, at total power, was unstoppable.

Now, if it's Cthulhu VS Melkor... I would bet on Cthulhu. However, I don't really see Melkor fighting the Cthulhu alone. I mean, why should he? He has a freaking army! So I'm betting on Melkor.

But yeah, Cthulhu is really over-rated power whys. He's not THAT god like. He's just... impossible for humans to comprehend, I guess.

Without the army he was powerful enough to do that favorite quote of mine. Even with the stars being right my my money remains firmly on Tolkien's evil badass over Lovecraft's.

The Glyphstone

2009-11-04, 09:27 PM

.

He could perhaps even fight Winston Churchill...his tommy-gun of Chicago gangsterness).

Somewhere, an Englishman is crying.:smallwink:

chiasaur11

2009-11-04, 09:33 PM

Somewhere, an Englishman is crying.:smallwink:

Well, when Churchill briefly took over Chicago during his second term as prime minister, he took the legendary Tommy Gun of gangsterness as a sign of total victory.

He then used it at parties to insult ugly women.

Cracklord

2009-11-04, 09:40 PM

But... but rock and roll will never die!

Death arrived on a motorbike in a leather jacket, and killed the music.

Well, when Churchill briefly took over Chicago during his second term as prime minister, he took the legendary Tommy Gun of gangsterness as a sign of total victory.

He then used it at parties to insult ugly women.

He, in fact, pried it from Al Capone's cold, dead hands.

The only reason he wasn't re-elected was because he had fulfilled England's badass leader quota, and any more time running things would have destroyed civilization.

Matar

2009-11-04, 09:48 PM

Without the army he was powerful enough to do that favorite quote of mine. Even with the stars being right my my money remains firmly on Tolkien's evil badass over Lovecraft's.

What quote where?

Honestly, with all I read about Melkor he really isn't THAT impressive. Alone. With his army he's utterly badass, yeah. But alone? I'm... not seeing it.

Yeah, he got some evil spider thing to kill the Moon/Sun Tree. So what? He couldn't do it himself. And... I don't remember him ever ripping out chunks of earth. I mean, I wouldn't doubt it if he could create earthquakes and everything. But I don't recall him ever ripping out chunks of earth.

'Course. I only know bits and pieces. Feel free to correct me.

Lupy

2009-11-04, 09:54 PM

But... but rock and roll will never die!

Actually, Death killed it, and then Don McLean spread the word.

-

Morgoth is a god of Universe-shattering power at the Creation. Cthulu would be easily crushed, possibly with a pair of mountains created by the god and controlled with his thoughts. By the time of Beren it would be a better fight, but Morgoth is still a god and Cthulu is still subservient to gods.

Gralamin

2009-11-04, 10:04 PM

'Course. I only know bits and pieces. Feel free to correct me.

I usually stay out of these threads, but...

Something a lot of people miss about Tolkien's works is the recurring theme of having a power, but not using it. Using the Ring caused bad things. The Malar are restricted in power in Middle Earth, etc.
Morgoth is a being second only to the creator of the universe. As such, he has a lot of power, but he isn't described as using a lot of it. This is because, a lot of times, its the little things that cause the changes. Even if the Valar and Morgoth meant in a confirmation (Its been a while since I read the Similarion, and I cannot remember if they did), they would not use their full power, since that may threaten the existence of the world.
Because of these factors, I don't think that judging on acts is a very effective way of figuring out the power of any stronger being that Tolkien created - It is very hard to know if they are just holding back as usual, or going all out.

This, unfortunately, makes vs threads very very difficult to do with Tolkien characters.

Berserk Monk

2009-11-04, 10:09 PM

chiasaur11

2009-11-04, 10:16 PM

I'd think they'd be too distracted by the appearance of...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MryQii-dvu8/SbGa-VHG63I/AAAAAAAAHy0/i-PHwDQhCwo/s400/Dr+Manhattan+Giant+Nam+Crop.jpg

the naked blue that just poof'd out of nowhere.

And then he just...

sits there. Doing nothing. With his junk hanging out. It's mildly distracting. Oh, sure, he mopes fatalistically and Cthulhu knows how to deal with that, but...

Cracklord

2009-11-04, 10:21 PM

What quote where?

Yes, it never happened in the continuity, but it was still within his capabilities.

'I will rend the Earth asunder, and break it, and none shall posses it.
But this Melkor could not do, for the earth may not be wholly destroyed against it's fate; neverthelss Melkor took a potion of it, and seized it for his own, and reft it away; and he made a little Earth of his own, and wheeled it around the sky, following the greater Earth wheresoever it went, So that Melkor could observe thence all that happened bellow, and could send forth his malice and trouble the seas and shake the lands. And still the is rumour among the Elder of the war in which the Valar assaulted the stronghold of Melkor, and cast him out, and removed it further from the Earth, and it remains in the sky, Ithil whom men call the moon.

Incidently

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MryQii-dvu8/SbGa-VHG63I/AAAAAAAAHy0/i-PHwDQhCwo/s400/Dr+Manhattan+Giant+Nam+Crop.jpg

No one cares about the man in the thong. Now shut up before a real man (or women, or genderless stargod) with real power comes and smacks him around.

Dacia Brabant

2009-11-04, 10:30 PM

Varda, who hates Melkor more than anyone else, changes the stars (hey, she created them) so that they "are right" and therefore Cthulhu wins by default.

Then she quickly changes them back and puts Big C back to sleep. The End.

Texas_Ben

2009-11-04, 10:34 PM

Even if the Valar and Morgoth meant in a confirmation (Its been a while since I read the Similarion, and I cannot remember if they did), they would not use their full power, since that may threaten the existence of the world.

Didn't that happen way in the beginning, with results similar to what you described?

Dienekes

2009-11-04, 10:35 PM

Didn't that happen way in the beginning, with results similar to what you described?

I don't think so...

I remember Tulkas coming in and kicking ass though

Texas_Ben

2009-11-04, 10:40 PM

Like way in the beginning, before the trees even... When the lamps were still around (Or maybe even before that?)

I just remember that the Valar had everything just so, and then they got in a big fight with Morgoth and it all got messed up.

Zaydos

2009-11-04, 10:43 PM

Morgoth is a god and would beat Cthulhu (a demigod) and Cthulhu would beat Sauron (a weaker demigod). Cthulhu made a truce with the Elder Beings because it was so hard to beat them, that was with an army. Now the shoggoths, and elder beings would have only slowed Morgoth down and despite their near-invincibility the shoggoths would not have been a match for the human or elven heroes of the War of Power. Compare them to the 3rd age and you might have a chance of their winning, an army of them would take out Gondor etc, but that's the 3rd age we're talking about and not even Numenor. Cthulhu beats normal humans, and anything within their power, and while yes I love joking with my friends about how Cthulhu's power level is defined as "Greater than anything humans could ever muster" he doesn't win in a supernatural setting.

Even with the more Lovecraftian definition intact, and Greater than anything humans could ever muster, saying that Morgoth wouldn't win because of something like losing to Fingolfin isn't saying much since he was a human hero greater than anything humans could ever muster (sorry Beren epic as you were). Cthulhu would put up a good fight but I have to say my money is on Morgoth.

That said I wouldn't put Middle Earth even during the War of Power up against a group of high level D&D wizards it would be torn asunder so quickly.

Zevox

2009-11-04, 11:14 PM

Depends. Melkor before he diffused his power into twisting creatures to his bidding and corrupting Middle-Earth? Or Morgoth, who had already done that and no longer even possessed power enough to change his physical form?

If the former, Melkor, all the way. Second most powerful being in his universe, greatest of the gods below the Overgod Eru, the guy who was able to successfully fight a war all alone with all of the other gods until their greatest warrior descended into the world, and even afterwards was still able to permanently mar their work.

If the latter, probably Cthulu. Wherever he falls on his uni/multi-verse's hierarchy, it's quite clear that he was well above any mortal, whereas the much-weakened Morgoth could only defeat Fingolfin with great difficult and many wounds, including one that left him limping for the remainder of eternity. Cthulu, meanwhile, could get run over by a boat and just re-shape himself without a scratch. Not much that Morgoth could do about that at that point, unless he was allowed to bring his greater servants (like the Balrogs and Sauron) with him.

Something a lot of people miss about Tolkien's works is the recurring theme of having a power, but not using it.
<snip>
Even if the Valar and Morgoth meant in a confirmation (Its been a while since I read the Similarion, and I cannot remember if they did), they would not use their full power, since that may threaten the existence of the world.
Bingo. The few times that the Ainur do unleash even some of their power in conflict - when they defeated Melkor at Utumno after the awakening of the Elves and during the War of Wrath - they break continents and reshape seas in the process. In fact, part of why they didn't strike back at Melkor after the Marring of Arda until the Elves awoke was for fear of destroying the lands in which Eru's children would awaken, or worse, accidentally destroying those children themselves, since they didn't know when they would awaken, either.

<Morgoth's Ring quote>
You do realize that story was a rejected draft, not a part of the final version of the stories, correct? Everything in the History of Middle Earth books was.

Zevox

Cracklord

2009-11-04, 11:16 PM

You do realize that story was a rejected draft, not a part of the final version of the stories, correct? Everything in the History of Middle Earth books was.

I know this, but I will never admit it. Ever.
Furthermore I will continue to post it as though it is relevant.

Berserk Monk

2009-11-05, 12:43 AM

No one cares about the man in the thong. Now shut up before a real man (or women, or genderless stargod) with real power comes and smacks him around.

Real power? Tell that to Rorschach or one of the other countless souls that have had their entire being eradicated in the blink of an eye.

Also, what about...

http://www.castleforrester.com/mst3k/resources/10_observer.jpg

...the guy in the blue cloak carrying his own brain?

Dienekes

2009-11-05, 01:47 AM

Real power? Tell that to Rorschach or one of the other countless souls that have had their entire being eradicated in the blink of an eye.

Also, what about...

http://www.castleforrester.com/mst3k/resources/10_observer.jpg

...the guy in the blue cloak carrying his own brain?

The ability to destroy a man is insignificant next to the power of the Elder Gods

Cracklord

2009-11-05, 02:23 PM

Cthulhu works for someone who destroys entire galaxies simply by becoming aware of them.
Killing humans is Insignificant.

hamishspence

2009-11-05, 02:35 PM

You do realize that story was a rejected draft, not a part of the final version of the stories, correct? Everything in the History of Middle Earth books was.

Not everything. Some things weren't part of stories, but are relevant to discussions- such as what happens when an elf, such as Glorfindel, is reincarnated, or, what behaviour by elves, toward orcs, is unacceptable (torture, mistreatment of orc prisoners) or how the Palantir work (Unfinished Tales) and so on.

Ecks Dee

2009-11-05, 02:55 PM

Churchill? Pshaw.

If you want to defeat Cthulhu, the epitome of mind-breakingly unnatural horror, then you bring Clement Attlee - the epitome of boring efficiency, a veritable black whole of personality, to the field. The post-war prime minister and the great old one would annihilate like matter and antimatter. He was practically a 40k-style blank.

Berserk Monk

2009-11-05, 03:54 PM

Cthulhu works for someone who destroys entire galaxies simply by becoming aware of them.
Killing humans is Insignificant.

Still, Jon Osterman is kind of indestructible. If he can repeatedly harm either of them in the slightest manner, than he could win the fight.

chiasaur11

2009-11-05, 05:18 PM

Still, Jon Osterman is kind of indestructible. If he can repeatedly harm either of them in the slightest manner, than he could win the fight.

Emphasis on kind of.

He can't even stop every A-bomb in the air at once. And we never see him tangle with anyone near his weight class.

Watchmen's a great book, but bringing any of the prospective Crimebusters to a versus thread is a recipe for disaster.

YesImSardonic

2009-11-07, 11:06 AM

'I will rend the Earth asunder, and break it, and none shall posses it.
But this Melkor could not do, for the earth may not be wholly destroyed against it's fate; neverthelss Melkor took a potion of it, and seized it for his own, and reft it away; and he made a little Earth of his own, and wheeled it around the sky, following the greater Earth wheresoever it went, So that Melkor could observe thence all that happened bellow, and could send forth his malice and trouble the seas and shake the lands. And still the is rumour among the Elder of the war in which the Valar assaulted the stronghold of Melkor, and cast him out, and removed it further from the Earth, and it remains in the sky, Ithil whom men call the moon.

In the final and authoritative version the Sun and Moon are made from the fruits of the Trees.

Furthermore, Cthulhu as priest is a creation of Derleth. True Lovecraftian Cthulhu is an Elder God in his own right, and when the stars are aligned in ages to come when men are beyond good and evil and kill and revel and enjoy themselves Cthulhu will awaken and see mankind and teach them new ways to kill and revel and enjoy themselves and mankind will drive itself to extinction.

I'A! I'A! CTHULHU FHTAGN!

And when mankind is gone Cthulhu will once again fly between the stars.

EDIT:

Morgoth wins, hands down. Cthulhu is merely another cog in the universe. While he is an Elder God, he is a lesser thing than is Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Now, if it came down to a fight between Morgoth and Yogge-Sothothe, Tolkien's Vala is less likely to stand a chance.

Soras Teva Gee

2009-11-07, 11:26 AM

I see the dividing line as thus:

Melkor wins. End of story.
Morgoth with his forces might still win.
Morgoth alone, will loose.

That said I don't know if either could absolutely kill the other...

WalkingTarget

2009-11-07, 12:25 PM

Furthermore, Cthulhu as priest is a creation of Derleth. True Lovecraftian Cthulhu is an Elder God in his own right

"They worshipped, so they said, the Great Old Ones who lived ages before there were any men, and who came to the young world out of the sky. Those Old Ones were gone now, inside the earth and under the sea; but their dead bodies had told their secrets in dreams to the first men, who formed a cult which had never died. This was that cult, and the prisoners said it had always existed and always would exist, hidden in distant wastes and dark places all over the world until the time when the great priest Cthulhu, from his dark house in the mighty city of R'lyeh under the waters, should rise and bring the earth again beneath his sway. Some day he would call, when the stars were ready, and the secret cult would always be waiting to liberate him."

The various cults described in the story worship the Great Old Ones, but there's no mention of the big C being a god.

Tackyhillbillu

2009-11-07, 12:44 PM

Zevox

2009-11-07, 01:08 PM

Just a nitpick, Melkor's placement is as a joint Second. Aule is just as powerful as Melkor, but he lacks the characteristic of Melkor that made him Melkor, in that Melkor had a piece of each bit of the Valar's knowledge in him.

In sheer power, they are the same (why Aule can make the Dwarves and such.)
Er, where on earth did you get that? Last I checked, Manwe was said to be next in power to Melkor, not Aule.

Quick check of The Silmarillion definitely confirms that Aule is not that powerful. First sentence of the paragraph on him in Valaquenta reads: "Aule has might less than Ulmo." And it says in Ulmo's paragraph that he is "next in might to Manwe." And Manwe's paragraph explicitly says that Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur who entered the world. So, yeah.

Zevox

Tackyhillbillu

2009-11-07, 01:15 PM

Apologies. I misremembered that.

Aule isn't the most powerful, but the most similar in thought and power to Melkor.

Sholos

2009-11-07, 02:56 PM

Yes.

Because DEATH killed him. With an ordinary scythe powered by pure rage.

Sure, he's a nice guy, likes cats, has a World's Best Grandpa mug...

But when you get right down to it...

He kills things. Like wizards, demons, basic concepts of reality, Rock and Roll...

DEATH never kills anything. He just takes the life away. :smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11

2009-11-07, 03:21 PM

DEATH never kills anything. He just takes the life away. :smallbiggrin:

That is the normal way the system works, yes.

But, in an emergency...

Well, I wouldn't want to have to deal with him when angry, all I'm saying.

Lupy

2009-11-07, 04:39 PM

Death has no control over the creator though, and thus none over the Valar. Just saying.

Stormthorn

2009-11-07, 09:53 PM

He's supposed to be the strongest of the Great Old Ones

Great old ones: "ruling feebly our own dreamland and having no power or habitation elsewhere".

Other Gods: "gods of the outer hells that guard the feeble gods of earth"

Compared to the Other gods (later called the Outer Gods) Cthulhu aint so tough.

Cthulhu doesnt win against any truly divine being, flat out. Their are things in the Mythos (and in Lovecrafts own writings) which can clean his clock. Sauron would lose, but Morgoth would win.

Renegade Paladin

2009-11-07, 10:27 PM

And Cthulhu could withstand Nuclear explosions none the worse for wear. Before atom bombs were actually invented.
Really? Source? I find that hard to believe, considering Lovecraft was writing before the invention of the atomic bomb and thus could not have accounted for it.

Stormthorn

2009-11-07, 11:19 PM

Really? Source? I find that hard to believe, considering Lovecraft was writing before the invention of the atomic bomb and thus could not have accounted for it.

Well, Cthuhlu is pretty resiliant. Not tough, since a boat tore a hole in him, but resiliant, since its a temporary setback.

Drakyn

2009-11-07, 11:42 PM

Matar

2009-11-07, 11:54 PM

IIRC t's from some quote about Cthulhu that Lovecraft wrote. It had the word "Nuclear" in it or something.

...I really don't remember >_>.

chiasaur11

2009-11-08, 12:06 AM

I think the atomic bomb citation is something from call of cthulu about rules if you nuke him: he reforms quickly, like he does from other damage...and he's also radioactive. Not from Lovecraft, but hilarious.

Ah, but remember the words of Doom Marine, on his journey for the gun of greater size.

"And lo, the marine did rise from the wastes, and his voice declared 'Now I'm radioactive! That can't be good!'

And it was not good, although his resolve made it impedeth him not, for what should come of the children, and the children's children, and so on unto the fifth generation. Ye, verily, the humanity."

Words for all of us, even Cthulhu, to remember in these troubled times.

Drakyn

2009-11-08, 12:15 AM

Fear not! Cthulu shall EAT the little tykes, and then they will not have to worry about radioactivity - whether in giant space alien monster god-priests or green slimy puddles - ever, ever again!
Incidentally, did you know that "ftaghn" actually translates as "would you be interested in funding research into renewable energy sources"?

Renegade Paladin

2009-11-08, 12:58 AM

Well, Cthuhlu is pretty resiliant. Not tough, since a boat tore a hole in him, but resiliant, since its a temporary setback.
Yes, he is pretty resilient, but to take the fact that he can recover from a boat plowing into his head and derive that he must therefore be impervious to harm is a massive no-limits fallacy.

Because as we all know, if violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it. :smalltongue:

Coatl Ruu

2009-11-08, 01:21 PM

Personally, I think they would just fight to a stalemate, seeing as neither of them can truly be killed. After all, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."

So...yeah.

hamishspence

2009-11-08, 03:06 PM

IIRC t's from some quote about Cthulhu that Lovecraft wrote. It had the word "Nuclear" in it or something.

...I really don't remember >_>.

Azathoth is referred to as a "monstrous nuclear chaos"

Even prior to nuclear bombs- there was research on radium, and how the stars function- and he could have gotten the use of the word from that.

Drakyn

2009-11-08, 03:22 PM

Or "nuclear" in the sense of "central." You know, the nucleus.

hamishspence

2009-11-08, 03:31 PM

It is an alternative possibility- though its rare to see "nuclear" used to mean "central".

Drakyn

2009-11-08, 03:45 PM

He IS in the center of the universe, and it would've been much more likely a use in Lovecraft's time than it is today. The nucleus of an atom, the nucleus of a cell...... same source.

Zaydos

2009-11-08, 04:05 PM

The line is from when the main character sees Azathoth is the center of the cosmos and is horrified, though, isn't it (been a few years so my quote placement might be off)? Azathoth was horrible because he was central, not because he was radioactive.

The Big Dice

2009-11-08, 04:39 PM

To be fair, when Cthulhu got hit in the head by a ship, he had just woken up on the wrong day and hadn't had his morning coffee yet. I'd imagine that even Great Old Ones set their alarm clocks wrong sometimes, only to realise they didn't need to get up after they stub their metaphorical toe on the hypothetical hope chest.

But as for who would win between Morgoth and Cthulhu, didn't Morgoth's attempts to subvert the original Song result in lots of nasty things being created? I could be misremembering the Silmarillion here, but if I'm not that could well mean that the two would square off in the ring, only to talk smack about the "good" Valar and make a new tag team to take on the universe.

Stormthorn

2009-11-08, 11:12 PM

It is an alternative possibility- though its rare to see "nuclear" used to mean "central".

A: This is Lovecrafts word usage we are talking about.
B: He is the center of creation, although he doesnt really realize it.
C: Lovecraft was not a physicist.

Cracklord

2009-11-08, 11:21 PM

Really? Source? I find that hard to believe, considering Lovecraft was writing before the invention of the atomic bomb and thus could not have accounted for it.

Mountains of Madness. They're not explicitly called Nuclear missiles, but they have enough traits in common to be essentially the same thing.

And you have never read any H G Wells, have you? Of course science Fiction Writers can account for changes. That is what makes it Science Fiction (I'll admit that Lovecraft does not actually write Science Fiction, but it has many traits in common). Lovecraft was determined to keep his work as plausible as possible, so he read scientific journals and reports in an effort to do so.

Renegade Paladin

2009-11-09, 12:37 AM

Mountains of Madness. They're not explicitly called Nuclear missiles, but they have enough traits in common to be essentially the same thing.

And you have never read any H G Wells, have you? Of course science Fiction Writers can account for changes. That is what makes it Science Fiction (I'll admit that Lovecraft does not actually write Science Fiction, but it has many traits in common). Lovecraft was determined to keep his work as plausible as possible, so he read scientific journals and reports in an effort to do so.
Okay, so it's theoretically possible. I can't help but notice that you didn't actually answer the question, which was to cite where he said Cthulhu was impervious to harm from nuclear weapons.

Mikeavelli

2009-11-09, 02:29 AM

One of the Call of Cthulhu RPG's (Chaosium's, I think?) had contingency rules for if the Players nuked Cthluhu, wisely anticipating that anyone role-playing a CoC game set after World War II would try to end the old ones in Nuclear Fire.

The rules were something along the lines of "It works, but he just comes back the next day, and he's radioactive."

Lovecraft described Azathoth using the word "Nuclear" to mean "center" as has been described above. the word has changed meaning since then, it doesn't have anything to do with the bomb.

[hr]

As originally written, Cthulhu would fall pretty quickly against Melkor. Even Sauron would give him a run for his money.

Comparatively, Lovecraft Mythos to Tolkien Cosmology, The Outer Gods (Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth being the most prominent) - Are roughly equivalent to Illuvatar, the overgod of the setting.

The next step below this in the Tolkien Pantheon, the Valar, are roughly equivalent to the rest of the old gods, like Hastur, or Nyarlathotep.

The Valar are creatures whose direct interference in the world tends to accidentally break it, as shown during the War of Wrath. They do accidentally what Cthulhu would like to do on purpose once the stars are right.

Melkor, being the most powerful of the Valar, would be able to destroy Cthulhu fairly easily at the height of his power, and would still be more than a match after dispersing his power throughout Middle Earth. Honestly, his interactions with Ungoliant make her sound something like an avatar or aspect of Nyarlathotep, and I think it describes perfectly what would actually happen if the two beings had met up.

The next step down on the Tolkien power scales is the Maiar, beings like Sauron, Gandalf, Balrogs, etc. This is where I see Cthulhu, as he was originally written by Lovecraft being. Cthulhu has acquired a reputation FAR beyond his origins because he's basically the Lovecraft mythos mascot. He's actually about at that level.

That said, Sauron during the Lord of the Rings books would have his ass handed to him pretty handily by Cthulhu, since he's greatly diminished in power, and is far more of a cunning strategist and trickster archetype than an OMGEATYOURFACE beasty like Cthulhu.

Zevox

2009-11-09, 03:00 AM

The Valar are creatures whose direct interference in the world tends to accidentally break it, as shown during the War of Wrath.
The War of Wrath didn't involve any Valar, actually. Just Maiar, and a lot of powerful creatures corrupted by Morgoth (most of the Balrogs, lots of Dragons, Sauron, etc). And of course Elves, but I doubt they had anything to do with the whole continent-breaking thing.

Zevox

Myrmex

2009-11-09, 04:28 PM

It is an alternative possibility- though its rare to see "nuclear" used to mean "central".

It's also rare to see the following words:
eldritch
cacodaemoniacal
lucubration
cyclopean
mouldering

Unless you're reading Lovecraft.

hamishspence

2009-11-09, 04:46 PM

this is a good point. :smallamused:

Tolvan

2013-01-10, 09:01 AM

Avilan the Grey

2013-01-10, 09:20 AM

Weatherwax resists insanity, and DEATH just wins... Nice.

She resists his Insanity and counters it with Headology. Now he has a headache. And feels ashamed to have insulted a lady.

Edit: Indeed; Chthulu is, compared to ther cosmologies, not that powerful. He is a monster, and somehow installs insanity (but this is something we have argued in other threads; what Lovecraft thought would install insanity in humans just doesn't work most of the time. We have been to the bottom of the sea and walked on the moon. Nobody went nuts yet. Also, as of a few days ago the biggest squid ever caught on tape was finally filmed btw :smallbiggrin:). But he is not a god, has never been a god and will never be a god. He is a priest and a servant, and might actually be taken one-on-one with a balog commander... In fact I would love to see a match between him and Ungoliant, btw.

Eldan

2013-01-10, 10:01 AM

Cthulhu is often mentioned as being god-like and driving anyone insane who seems him. But what did he actually do when he woke up? Give a few dozen people across the world weird dreams and drive one man insane. He was not necessarily permanently insane, still able to tell his story, and already suffered from being stranded alone at sea for a long time and under severe trauma. Cthulhu could not stop a ship from ramming him, and he was also barely faster than said ship.

He is, honestly, not that impressive the one time he shows up.

Tolkien's mythos also has its share of eldritch things, though they don't show up much. Gandalf mentions, more than once, the dark nameless things lurking in the depths of the earth. There's also Ungoliant, the mother of spiders, who came from beyond the stars to eat all light and scared Morgoth half to death.

pendell

2013-01-10, 10:26 AM

When considering Melkor's power level, consider the origin of the Misty Mountains (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Misty_Mountains). Melkor wanted an obstacle to hinder Orome in his riding, so he created a mountain range . Yes , THAT mountain range. The one inhabited by stone giants and goblins. He made it because he needed a hedge.

All of which is to say that the original Melkor -- before he spent his strength and weakened himself -- would have been undefeatable in Arda by any save his creator or by the other Valar. And thus, more than a match for Cthulhu. Because if Cthulhu enters Middle Earth he is part of that creation and must obey its rules. Melkor can rewrite and re-make creation at his whim. The only thing he cannot do is make real living creatures of his own. But remake elves into orcs? Make places of bitter cold and great heat? Flood lands with the sea? Raise up mountain ranges or flatten them? All of this is within the power of his song.

It does not signify that Melkor was beaten by an elf and an elf-maid, because elves and men are the Children of Illuvatar (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Children_of_Il%C3%BAvatar). Flesh and blood they may be, but there is a power in them and a fate that is beyond the power of any of the Valar to alter. The Valar have great power over the physical world, but the Children, weak and frail as they are, are another case entirely.

Cthulhu is not of the Children of Illuvatar. He would be an abomination, something outside of the Creation that does not belong there. To purge such monsters from the world is precisely the responsibility of Orome, the hunter, and Melkor is mightier than he. The sun in Middle Earth is the merest fruit of the great tree which Melkor slew. Melkor's power, in other words, is such as to slay the sun, the moon, the very stars themselves.

Within Middle-Earth, Cthulhu has no chance. The beings from the stars have no chance against those who created the very stars themselves, drawing them from a well and casting them into the sky.

Were the reverse to happen and Melkor be transported to lovecraft-verse, I think all the advantages would be Cthulhu's way, because Melkor is not part of that creation and has no special role. He would just be another very powerful being. Likewise in neutral territory. But I don't believe any outsider could defeat Melkor at his height within Middle Earth.

Respectfully,

Brian P.