PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Warlocks and actions



Grushvak
2009-11-04, 04:13 PM
I must have missed something because I could not find the answer to these questions anywhere in Complete Arcane.


What type of action does an Eldritch Blast count as? I only read it described as an attack. Does this mean a warlock can use a full attack to throw more than one EB in a single round?
Blast Shapes and Eldritch Essence invocations: how are they cast? I know Invocations are typically standard actions, but the wording leads me to believe they are free actions that can be made when throwing an Eldritch Blast. Am I wrong in this assumption? Do you actually have to spend one standard action to cast Sickening Blast, and then only be able to throw the modified Eldritch Blast on the next round?
Can you apply more than one Eldritch Essence or Blast Shape invocation to a single Eldritch Blast?


Once again, I'm sorry if these questions are already answered in the book, but for the life of me, I couldn't find anything regarding this in the warlock ability descriptions.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 04:16 PM
Standard Action to toss an invocation, including EB.

You can apply Essences and Shapes to an EB as free actions.

Each individual EB can get 1 essence, 1 shape.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 04:19 PM
Standard Action to toss an invocation, including EB.

You can apply Essences and Shapes to an EB as free actions.

Each individual EB can get 1 essence, 1 shape.

Well that was fast. Thanks a lot.

TheCountAlucard
2009-11-04, 05:15 PM
So you know, we've actually got a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123431) for this.

Boci
2009-11-04, 05:25 PM
One quick and dirty fix for warlock it to allow them to full attack with eldritch blast. May not be required in a low powered game.

Dimers
2009-11-04, 05:26 PM
What type of action does an Eldritch Blast count as? I only read it described as an attack. Does this mean a warlock can use a full attack to throw more than one EB in a single round?

More specifically, it's a standard action because it's a spell-like ability. Those are always standard actions that don't provoke attacks of opportunity unless otherwise indicated. An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 05:30 PM
An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.

No, it's because of this statement in Complete Arcane right below "Invocations". Ranged attacking has little to do with it.

A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity

The train of logic there is a little flawed, but the intent IMO is obvious.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-04, 05:31 PM
More specifically, it's a standard action because it's a spell-like ability. Those are always standard actions that don't provoke attacks of opportunity unless otherwise indicated. An eldritch blast does still provoke attacks, but that's because it's also a ranged attack, not due to the ability itself. An eldritch blast shaped with hideous blow doesn't provoke.Actually, it does. They provoke because the Warlock is basically a caster class and WotC felt that letting them ignore Conc with their 2 skill points was OP.

Yeah, WotC are idiots.

Tokiko Mima
2009-11-04, 06:16 PM
I try to see it as a bonus. You can't metamagic up your melee/ranged attacks, but since Eldritch blast is literally spellcasting with all the advantages and penalties thereof, it works. It also work great for stuff like Fly-by Attack and Belt of Battle. If your DM is generous and your race starts with an SLA, you can even take Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) and ignore that nasty Spell Resistance and concentration checking. :smallcool:

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 07:36 PM
One quick and dirty fix for warlock it to allow them to full attack with eldritch blast. May not be required in a low powered game.

Wait, are warlocks really that underpowered? Am I going to have a hard time in a regular campaign? I had them pegged at tier 3 or 4, but then again, I'm playing a race that's considered below LA+0 (11 years old dragonwrought kobold).

I really want to play a kobold for the fluff after reading RotD but I also enjoy being, you know, efficient.

EDIT: I could probably select Power Word: Pain as my Draconic Rite of Passage SLA instead of Nerveskitter or Swift Expeditious Retreat as I had originally intended, but that would only help me in low levels.

Boci
2009-11-04, 07:39 PM
Wait, are warlocks really that underpowered? Am I going to have a hard time in a regular campaign? I had them pegged at tier 3 or 4, but then again, I'm playing a race that's considered below LA+0 (11 years old dragonwrought kobold).

I really want to play a kobold for the fluff after reading RotD but I also enjoy being, you know, efficient.

It depends on a lot of things. One is of course your build. Of you've only got 1 magical item to boost EB (that holy napkin) then you are doing 11d6 damage at level 20. Remember how a rogue's 10d6 SA damage on ever attack is considered so-so? Also, in most games, casters never really run out of spell slots beofre an exstended rest, so the at will feature of you your EB isn't all that great. They are classed as tier 4 (the dragonfire adept is better than the warlock, but not better enough to be tier 3)

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 07:45 PM
I didn't really read through all the invocations, but aren't those supposed to be where the true power of Warlocks resides?

Boci
2009-11-04, 07:47 PM
I didn't really read through all the invocations, but aren't those supposed to be where the true power of Warlocks resides?

2 types of them are just ways of altering and improving your EB. The remaining ones are useful, but ultimatly just weaker versions of what other casters can do. Useful when they run out of spells, but in most games that doesn't happen too often.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 07:49 PM
Well, uh... UMD as a class skill? How about that UMD?


Skill points per level: 2 + INT modifier

... poop. :smallfrown:

EDIT: I try to tell myself that this is just making the caster classes more balanced, but it still feels like a glass cannon running on wet gunpowder. Basically, what is a Warlock's primary role? It can't be heavy artillery, since the damage output is just sad. It can't be utility, since the selection of invocations is so frickin' limited. And it definitely can't be skillmonkey or tank. So what is it? This class confuses me.

Boci
2009-11-04, 07:52 PM
Well, uh... UMD as a class skill? How about that UMD?



... poop. :smallfrown:

Its still useful. They are char based and can take a 10 on UMD. However, there are some problems. The DC for magic items is typically low, since they have a minmal state modfier. You also need to aquire them. However, psending some of your WBL on some wands or scrolls is probably a good idea. Just don't over do it.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 07:58 PM
Well... this is sad. But I'm already committed to the idea, so I'll try to make this work somehow.

Clementx
2009-11-04, 08:00 PM
It can't be heavy artillery, since the damage output is just sad. It can't be utility, since the selection of invocations is so frickin' limited. And it definitely can't be skillmonkey or tank. So what is it? This class confuses me.
You pick up a couple blasts and essenses, and then you select 8 or so tricks, each worth 20-30kgp if they were magic items. You plink for damage, but you do so while invisibly flying and 20% concealment against ranged attacks. Or you poke in melee, teleporting and leaving illusionary doubles of yourself. Or you save yourself 18 skill points and get +6 to three Knowledges and make yourself a sage. Or you scribble down whatever spell you want into a scroll to teach it to your wizard friend. And you take care of teleporting the party while picking your best save.

Warlocks are quite wonderful.

Boci
2009-11-04, 08:04 PM
Well... this is sad. But I'm already committed to the idea, so I'll try to make this work somehow.

Have you checked the warlocks handbook? http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867354/Warlock_Handbook

Lamech
2009-11-04, 08:05 PM
Ahh... yes, making any scroll you want. The wizard will be your best friend. But yeah, your main purpose is to plink from far away. Preferably while invisible and out of true sight range. Nothing says screw you like shooting stuff from out of true sight range while invisible. IIRC one invocation (or whatever) is a fort save or lose a minutes worth of standard actions, (sickened or something) thats kind of an auto-kill.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 08:05 PM
It's good to have another take on this. This is my first time ever playing a warlock, so I'm understandably worried.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 08:12 PM
Have you checked the warlocks handbook? http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867354/Warlock_Handbook

No, I haven't. Thanks a lot for the link.

EDIT: I just read the description of Fell Flight... I feel silly for ever wasting feats on Dragon Wings. Goddamn, this single invocation is better than what I can get with two (!!) feats.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-04, 08:28 PM
May I humbly suggest Eldritch Glaive? In effect, you get your full attack with your EB, although at a range of 10'. With Vitriolic Blast, you also negate the SR component of your EB. With Utterdark Blast, you start giving your target negative levels. Couple with Chain Blast for sharing the fun.



Also, not all Invocations are sub-par. Baleful Polymorph at will is a lot of fun. Sure, your DC might not be quite as high as a Wizard's, but then... you get to spam a LOT. They gotta roll a natural 1 sometime...

Furthermore, look up Flee The Scene. DimDoor that leaves an image behind. Very good for making a quick getaway. Even better when paired with Walk Unseen.

Warlocks are good snipers, and with the right tricks (hellfire+Binder+Legacy Champion), you can have some truly sick damage output.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 08:39 PM
May I humbly suggest Eldritch Glaive?

Too squishy to fight from that range.


Warlocks are good snipers, and with the right tricks (hellfire+Binder+Legacy Champion), you can have some truly sick damage output.

If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Otherwise, I think I'll just go for battlefield control. I was initially going to select Sickening Blast as my first least invocation, but I veto'd in favor of Summon Swarm. I'm looking into Complete Scoundrel's Swift Concentration skill trick right now to see if I'm able to keep up more than one swarm at a time.

Boci
2009-11-04, 08:43 PM
If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Hellfire warlock gives quite a big bonus to EB in return for 1 con damage each time you use it. A level dip into the binder allow you to heal 1 point of ability damage per round. I'm not sure what he means by legacy champion but it might be a trick that stretches RAW to the limit by advancing Hellfire Warlock beyond the amount of levels the PrC actually has, although it might be perfectly legit. (Sorry in advance ShneekeyTheLost if it is)

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 08:58 PM
And what book is the Binder class from? I don't want to outshine the other players, but I'd keep this trick in mind if I end up having a really hard time keeping up with the rest of the group.

Boci
2009-11-04, 09:00 PM
And what book is the Binder class from? I don't want to outshine the other players, but I'd keep this trick in mind if I end up having a really hard time keeping up with the rest of the group.

Tome of Magic. Its the only class in the book that works without a fix (although its not hard to fix Shadowcasters). You choose your bound vestige to be Naberus - The Grinning Hound. (He also gives you some nifty skill related abilities)

Hellfire Warlock is a PrC from the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells in case you didn't know.

streakster
2009-11-04, 09:03 PM
Personally, I generally play my warlocks as untouchables - a pixie warlock is quite hard to damage! - and then just throw endless debuffs at the enemy party while sowing as much confusion as possible. The damage is just a nice side bonus.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-04, 09:03 PM
Too squishy to fight from that range. Fell Flight + Eldritch Glaive + Walk Unseen. Try hitting me. First, ya gotta find me, then ya gotta be able to reach me. Glaive is a reach weapon.




If you have some time to spare, could you explain those tricks?

Otherwise, I think I'll just go for battlefield control. I was initially going to select Sickening Blast as my first least invocation, but I veto'd in favor of Summon Swarm. I'm looking into Complete Scoundrel's Swift Concentration skill trick right now to see if I'm able to keep up more than one swarm at a time.

Okay, here's how it goes:

Hellfire Warlock is a three-level PrC which increases your EB damage every level, at the cost of Con damage every time you use it. Binder + Naberous lets you heal one stat damage per round.

Legacy Champion is where it gets a little... cheesy. Basically, you know the Uncanny Trickster PrC in Complete Scoundrel? The one that 'advances class features' 2/3? Yea, use that on Hellfire Warlock, and you further increase damage output. Legacy Champion does that... but it's a 10 level class which promotes 'class features' 8/10. So you can get a truly sickening amount of damage in your EB.

Sickening Blast sucks, because it really doesn't do much. I'd go look up Hindering Blast (slow effect tagged onto EB) if you want an Eldritch Essence which is actually useful.

Summon Swarm is pretty good choice.

For the best Crowd Control, however, you need Dragonfire Adept + Entangling Exhalation.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 09:10 PM
Definitely too cheesy. I want my character to be viable and upon further consideration, the invocation list looks good enough for my character to become a decent addition to a party. Also, I own none of the books these classes come from annyway, so it's a bad sign. :smalltongue:

But thanks a lot for the optimization advice anyway. I don't really care if I'm not the best I could be, I was simply afraid I'd end up being worthless in my party.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-04, 09:15 PM
Definitely too cheesy. I want my character to be viable and upon further consideration, the invocation list looks good enough for my character to become a decent addition to a party. Also, I own none of the books these classes come from annyway, so it's a bad sign. :smalltongue:

But thanks a lot for the optimization advice anyway. I don't really care if I'm not the best I could be, I was simply afraid I'd end up being worthless in my party.

Then for a simple way of being effective:

1) Fell Flight + Eldritch Blast = sniping fun. If they can't hit you, then you can rain death and destruction down upon them.

2) Chain Blast is good for spreading your Eldritch Essences across multiple opponents. So is Cone Blast, if you can get your DC's up there. It's good for mass extermination of mooks without expending resources.

3) Vitriolic Blast removes the SR component, which can be exceedingly handy against certain opponents. Does make it acid damage, which might be partially resisted.

4) Utterdark Blast. if you get to level 16, this comes first. Negative levels = fun.

5) Feats of choice: Empower Spell-Like Ability, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Point Blank and Precise shot (so you don't hit your buddies in melee with your targets), and Ability Focus (+1 DC for invocations).

6) Flee The Scene. If you can't get hit, you can't get hurt.

Radiun
2009-11-04, 09:17 PM
Learn Baleful Utterance
shatter locks, traps, spell pouches, swords, whatever the DM lets you

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 09:45 PM
Learn Baleful Utterance
shatter locks, traps, spell pouches, swords, whatever the DM lets you

I was reading over Shatter, and I was a bit confused at the saves section. Basically, it allows a will save (object)... so, is it the will save of, say, the item's wielder? How does that work?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 09:52 PM
Unattended mundane items get no save. Unattended magical items save at 2+(caster level)/2. Attended items save at their wielder's value or their unattended value, whichever is better.
IIRC

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-04, 09:57 PM
Learn Baleful Utterance
shatter locks, traps, spell pouches, swords, whatever the DM lets you

If you want your party members to string you up by your shoestrings for destroying loot...

Radiun
2009-11-04, 10:05 PM
If you want your party members to string you up by your shoestrings for destroying loot...

Which you would then shatter and laugh in their face as you shatter their hearts

Tavar
2009-11-04, 10:07 PM
If you want your party members to string you up by your shoestrings for destroying loot...

Considering this only works on mundane items, I personally wouldn't be too upset. Of course, the best use I've seen is shattering Belts.

Grushvak
2009-11-04, 10:21 PM
Considering this only works on mundane items, I personally wouldn't be too upset. Of course, the best use I've seen is shattering Belts.

Funnily enough, that's the first thing that came to mind.

Imagine being caught pants-down in a venomous spider swarm. I think this would require a save DC higher than 11 to not be nauseated.

lsfreak
2009-11-05, 01:57 AM
Say what you will, shattering doors is much more impressive than just having the barbarian hack it with an axe. (Seriously, though, baleful utterance is one of the most useful ones, you just have to be creative. A lot of monsters have nonmagical weapons and armor even at mid-levels. Get your DM to describe things in detail; evil guy takes a sip of wine and you shatter the glass and force a Fort save.)


5) Feats of choice: Empower Spell-Like Ability, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Point Blank and Precise shot (so you don't hit your buddies in melee with your targets), and Ability Focus (+1 DC for invocations).
Couple things here. First is that PBS and Precise Shot should only be taken with consideration or if retraining is available. Because you're attacking someone's touch AC, the -4 doesn't hurt much beyond the first few levels.

Ability focus is also only useful if you use a lot of blast essences; personally the only two I seem to have room for don't have saves anywho (Vitriolic and Utterdark). If you use them regularly, though, by all means.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-05, 02:11 AM
Point Blank and Precise shot (so you don't hit your buddies in melee with your targets)
Rod of Magical Precision, Complete Mage pg. 128, gives the effects of Precise Shot for spells and spell-like abilities. At 12,000 gp, it's not an option at early levels (when Precise Shot perhaps matters the most), but overall it's not that pricey and it saves you two feats - pretty worth it, IMO. Unless, of course, you have better things to be holding...

sdream
2009-11-05, 03:15 PM
My experience has been that most actual games consist of playing with real people - not crazy optomizers that have schroedinger spellbooks exploiting rule loopholes.

Warlock is a fine class, which is
- easy to play
- does good, reliable damage
- fairly tough
- and has fun tricks (shatter, flee, fly)

Throw points in con, dex, concentration, and UMD.

You'll come out of the gate pretty strong due to ranged touch attacks that increase before people get iterative attacks, and have no saving throws.

Later on, if your party starts gearing up, as long as the Magic Item Compendium is OK to use, you can amp your blast with gloves, neck items, and warlock scepter for bursts (maybe a belt too, I forget). Yes these have charges, but you can buy spares too.

At level 10 pick up Eldritch Chain which doubles your damage to groups without giving folks a chance to save.

At 11 pick Vitriolic blast to penetrate SR, or the shadow tentacles (they also ignore SR for the grappling, crushing AND cold damage).

Flight is cool, but you can't take people with you. Just blast away, and maybe take Flee for escapes and mobility, because that CAN bring friends.

And friends are good.

Duke of URL
2009-11-05, 03:30 PM
Considering this only works on mundane items, I personally wouldn't be too upset. Of course, the best use I've seen is shattering Belts.

I stopped someone from escaping one by shattering the wooden stairs he was climbing.

@OP -- there are three types of Warlock archetypes: "Archer", "Controller", and "Glaivelock". Pick one and optimize for it.

The "Archer" stays way the hell out of the front lines, sniping with Eldritch Blast, preferably with extra damage or debuff essenses.

The "Controller" doesn't worry too much about damage. He's interested in debuffs and battlefield control.

The "Glaivelock" is a melee combatant who needs to focus on tactical positioning, damage, and defense.

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 03:36 PM
Well I already spent my two flaw feats on PBS and Precise Shot, so I guess that would make me an Archer. Only thing is, Hellfire Warlock and Binder aren't from books I have access to, and I don't even want to ask my DM to spare us both the headache of reading through new content to figure out if it's balanced for this campaign.

Are controllers really feat-dependant? Are there even any feats that are must-haves for Archer and Controller warlocks, aside from Quicken SLA, Maximize SLA and Extra Invocations? Because to me, it seems like doing both these things is perfectly doable and wouldn't leave me too feat-starved.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-05, 04:25 PM
Well I already spent my two flaw feats on PBS and Precise Shot, so I guess that would make me an Archer. Only thing is, Hellfire Warlock and Binder aren't from books I have access to, and I don't even want to ask my DM to spare us both the headache of reading through new content to figure out if it's balanced for this campaign.

Are controllers really feat-dependant? Are there even any feats that are must-haves for Archer and Controller warlocks, aside from Quicken SLA, Maximize SLA and Extra Invocations? Because to me, it seems like doing both these things is perfectly doable and wouldn't leave me too feat-starved.HFW. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) Balanced if you don't go Binder, most of the time at least.

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-05, 06:39 PM
Warlocks are NOT underpowered. I once played one in a campaign and I was the most powerful character. I overpowered 2 sorcerers, a druid, 2 rangers, and a wizard who had spontaneous casting but still used a spellbook. That is why I think warlocks are not underpowered.

Boci
2009-11-05, 06:43 PM
Warlocks are NOT underpowered. I once played one in a campaign and I was the most powerful character. I overpowered 2 sorcerers, a druid, 2 rangers, and a wizard who had spontaneous casting but still used a spellbook. That is why I think warlocks are not underpowered.

How? :smalleek:

P.S. Glad to see another Darren Shan fan.

Eldariel
2009-11-05, 06:44 PM
Warlocks are NOT underpowered. I once played one in a campaign and I was the most powerful character. I overpowered 2 sorcerers, a druid, 2 rangers, and a wizard who had spontaneous casting but still used a spellbook. That is why I think warlocks are not underpowered.

Sigh. And what exactly were the others doing?

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-05, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Boci;7261420]How? :smalleek:

It was houseruled in because it was someones younger brother. He was not the best optimiser but everyone else played powerful characters.

Boci
2009-11-05, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE=Boci;7261420]How? :smalleek:

It was houseruled in because it was someones younger brother. He was not the best optimiser but everyone else played powerful characters.

The how refered to how the hell were you more powerful than those other ones. Even if he wasn't optomizing, a spontenous wizard should have outshine a warlock many fold. And that still leaves the cleric and sorceror who had powerful character builds. In the first encounter of the day they would have reigned supreme. How amny encounters per day did you have?

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-05, 07:09 PM
Our DM sent many encounters at us every day. Also there was no cleric.

Boci
2009-11-05, 07:11 PM
Our DM sent many encounters at us every day.

At what point did you start becoming more powerful than the other classes?


Also there was no cleric.

Oops. Meant druid.

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-05, 07:22 PM
I became more powerful at around level 4 when I took baleful utterance and the DM started sending more encounters at us per day.

Boci
2009-11-05, 07:25 PM
I became more powerful at around level 4 when I took baleful utterance and the DM started sending more encounters at us per day.

After how many encounter in the day did you become more powerful? The two sorcerors should have been more powerful in the first few. Also, what was it about baleful utterance made you overpower the others?

lsfreak
2009-11-05, 07:29 PM
Warlocks are NOT underpowered. I once played one in a campaign and I was the most powerful character. I overpowered 2 sorcerers, a druid, 2 rangers, and a wizard who had spontaneous casting but still used a spellbook. That is why I think warlocks are not underpowered.

I'm guessing the sorcerers and wizard blasted, the druid spent more time in caster form than animal form and didn't use his animal companion, and the rangers weren't swift hunters. None of them knew how to optimize in the least, including blowing through spell slots like crazy doing damage for the casters and, as a result, the melee got close to death after just one or two encounters.

Try is again with a batman-buffer/battlefield controlled, one sorcerer debuffer/blaster, one sorcerer as Arcane Fusion nova, the druid going fleshraker with the same as an animal companion and possibly being a summoner, and the rangers both as swift hunters.

Desmond Tiny
2009-11-05, 07:35 PM
The druid did use his animal companion. The other spellcasters were blasters though. The rangers were probrably the least optomised of us. One sorcerer and the druid were above average power but all of the others were suboptimal. I used baleful utterance to solve many of the problems we faced. I was the most powerful after 2 encounters When sorcerers started saving spell slots. We usually did 4 encounters per day.