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View Full Version : Death Attack/Bardic Music Question (3.5)



FerhagoRosewood
2009-11-04, 06:23 PM
The title pretty much gives it away, but here goes... I have a Bard/Assassin character and I had asked my DM if I could do the 3 round studying while performing. He said that you couldn't. But looking at the rules, which is kinda vague, I'm not so sure. So can you? Or am I wrong for questioning him here?

Boci
2009-11-04, 06:23 PM
The title pretty much gives it away, but here goes... I have a Bard/Assassin character and I had asked my DM if I could do the 3 round studying while performing. He said that you couldn't. But looking at the rules, which is kinda vague, I'm not so sure. So can you? Or am I wrong for questioning him here?

Doesn't performing require concentration? And wouldn't it, you know, give your location away to the target?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-04, 06:24 PM
You'd have to have some feat that made the music not heard like Subsonic music feat in Complete Adventuer. The feat makes only you and allies hear your Bardic music.
Otherwise, "I hear music..there is that darn bard."

BRC
2009-11-04, 06:26 PM
Doesn't performing require concentration? And wouldn't it, you know, give your location away to the target?
Well, the target might still be unaware you were a threat (Or you could be using Perform (mime). I might let a Bard make a normal Perform check while studying a target, but not Bardic Music.

drengnikrafe
2009-11-04, 06:27 PM
The theory behind why assassins suck (last time I listened to a rant) is that they have to sit there and do virtually nothing for 3 rounds if they want to get a Death Attack, which is why they're bad in parties (they do nothing for 3 rounds while the party fights). As a result, I imagine popular opinion says no. After all, you would need to concentrate both of the music, and on the target. If you've ever tried to focus on 2 things at once, you'll understand why that's so hard. I imagine an unfriendly concentration DC may let you.

dariathalon
2009-11-04, 06:32 PM
I would say it depends on the type of performance.

If it requires concentration (some do, some don't) then I would rule no. Your focus would be split too much between studying the target and keeping the music going.

Also, the performance will give away your position (unless the target is deaf or something odd like that). However, you could rely on the second condition of death attack, that the target does not realize you are an enemy. This could be a way around the problem, but it is not guaranteed. I think it would depend on what the effects of the bardic music is and who it is affecting.

On the whole it is up to your dm. I would try to bring these ideas up with him away from game time, and see if he's willing to change his mind. If not, then I guess you're stuck.

Gametime
2009-11-04, 06:34 PM
Divine Prankster from Races of Stone has a capstone ability that's basically a comedic performance so funny it kills the listener. While it wouldn't work for your character (it's a divine prestige class), you could use that ability as inspiration for a way to meld your death attack with a bardic performance. Obviously, it'd be subject to DM discretion.

If that doesn't fly, the Death Attack description doesn't seem to require complete nondetection; it's sufficient to not be "recognized as an enemy". If the target doesn't realize you're about to KILL them, performing could actually be an excellent cover.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-04, 06:38 PM
Few Bardic Musics require concentration guys. The few that do are rarely combat ones.
Inspire Courage has no Concentration component.

Akal Saris
2009-11-05, 12:20 AM
Cutting from the Death Attack ability:
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.

So I'd rule that it would be fine so long as the victim was a target of the bardic music ability (even a concentration based music such as fascinate) and didn't recognize the assassin as a threat.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-11-05, 12:30 AM
Since you can swordfight whilst Bardic Musicing, I doubt that it would get in the way of studying an opponent's weak spot.

ericgrau
2009-11-05, 01:01 AM
The theory behind why assassins suck (last time I listened to a rant) is that they have to sit there and do virtually nothing for 3 rounds if they want to get a Death Attack, which is why they're bad in parties (they do nothing for 3 rounds while the party fights).

There is no issue here. You are the skillmonkey and the scout. You scout ahead, study for 3 rounds, death attack in the surprise round, then combat begins. Using death attack in a combat where the party is ambushed is just silly. And probably impossible anyway since you've likely been seen.

Back to the original question. Yeah, it should be doable as long as somehow your music doesn't give you away. Reasonable DM fiat might require an ad hoc check, but otherwise there's no rule against it.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-05, 01:54 AM
Acting as an entertainer to avoid suspicion and then suddenly stabbing someone in the face seems like the most assassin thing possible. It'd be kind of silly if that wasn't allowed.

Zaydos
2009-11-05, 02:10 AM
I'd say it makes sense and is an old assassin's trick so yes you ought to be able to. That noted it's still the DM's call whatever else it is.

Darcand
2009-11-05, 02:19 AM
I'm having visions of bardic assassins with perform; juggling. Using the bard ability to facinate a target with your performance and then after three rounds smashing the victem's head open with a bowling pin.

crazedloon
2009-11-05, 02:28 AM
all I can think of is a bard playing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltk5ddBuJuU&feature=related) as he waits (oh and hiding and moving around to add to the suspense)

LibraryOgre
2009-11-05, 10:23 AM
Acting as an entertainer to avoid suspicion and then suddenly stabbing someone in the face seems like the most assassin thing possible. It'd be kind of silly if that wasn't allowed.

In fact, in Dark Sun, Bards are all assassins... which to me always seemed silly.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-05, 10:28 AM
If you are "simply" performing, I'd say yes. I know that playing an instrument is quite difficult and requires concentration, but IMHO you could have anyway the way to aim the neck of your target.

And moreover, this lead to a crapload of RPG and coolnes hooks.

A "dance of death" you perform before strike, or the fact that you can lure someone and then slaughter him. It's just too cool.

If nothing else works, whine invoking rule of cool.

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-05, 12:29 PM
Juggle knives for your performance.
Swallow a sword.

Cloaked Dancer prestige class is basically built around this.

sdream
2009-11-05, 02:25 PM
Add me to the legion that say many real performers pay attention to their audience, and there is ample historical precedent for the entertainment to also have nefarious ends.

The bardic music special fascinate REQUIRES the bard to be able to see his targets, as does inspire competence.

So - I would say using fascinate on someone for 3 rounds definitely qualifies you as not only are you studying them to find weak points, you are already actively exploiting those weaknesses to control them.

You should get to Death attack anyone you have successfully fascinated for ANY amount of turns.

Keld Denar
2009-11-05, 10:03 PM
all I can think of is a bard playing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltk5ddBuJuU&feature=related) as he waits (oh and hiding and moving around to add to the suspense)

See, I was more thinking something along the lines of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF9PffRVAJg). Gotta add sound effects to your sneaking...its more in character!

Raging Gene Ray
2009-11-05, 10:54 PM
You could use the Animate Instrument spell (Brd 2) from Complete Scoundrel to continue the Bardic Music.

I remember one time when I was playing a bard, I used Perform (Dance) to fascinate a dagger wielding cleric of the Dragon Below. I performed this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wnE4vF9CQ4) complete with the leek twirling.

Then, I used Suggestion to get the cleric to imitate my movements. He started twirling the dagger and moving it from hand to hand as I did so. Then I stuck myself in the face with the leek...

Good times.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-11-06, 12:03 AM
Thanks for all the responses, both serious and Jaws themed in nature.

^^

My character actually uses a violin complete with a bow that's bladed. And the violin doubles as a light shield.

Keld Denar
2009-11-06, 04:13 AM
Like this?
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

FerhagoRosewood
2009-11-06, 04:59 AM
Yeah.

I can't lie, I saw that posted here and I thought it'd be awesome to do. So I based a character concept around it. And the session (which was an impromptu by the DM and we had to make characters on the spot) was loads of fun.

So much for my supposed originality.

o.-

Farlion
2009-11-06, 04:59 AM
My character actually uses a violin complete with a bow that's bladed. And the violin doubles as a light shield.

Simply cool idea! And I'm sure the bow only sounds really good, when it's covered in blood!

From RAW you can actually death attack if the enemy is not aware of you being an enemy. So in a tavern, I see no problem. In an encounter, where you're obviously seen as an enemy, I would say no.

I can allready imagine your bard, walking around the tavern, playing his violin, everyone dancing, cheering *swisch* your bow chops of someones head and you continue to play, the bow now dripping with blood. Everyone is quiet, only your music is heard as you make your way for the door.

Cheers,
Farlion

Wulfram
2009-11-06, 08:44 AM
With cat-like tread,
Upon our prey we steal;
In silence dread,
Our cautious way we feel.
No sound at all!
We never speak a word;
A fly's foot-fall
Would be distinctly heard--

Roderick_BR
2009-11-06, 10:20 AM
The question is: Do your target sees you as a possible danger before it's too late? "Hey, nice song going there. Now play another one. Uh? What are you looking at? Someone's com..." *death attack* "aaaugh"

A bard playing in the background while everyone else is concentrating on the noisy adventurers is also often overlooked.

Person_Man
2009-11-06, 10:25 AM
FYI, a simple fix for Death Attack is to partner with a party member playing a debuff build. In particular, Bards get access to Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin). Standard Action, spend a Bardic Music use to make one enemy Save or take a -10 penalty to Saves for 1 round. Unfortunately, it's hard for a Bard/Assassin to use (because by using Doomspeak, you're revealing your position, and the effect only lasts 1 round) but not impossible. You should be able to find a way to get extra actions somehow. A weaker, but more action efficient version, would be some combination of Binder/Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard/Assassin.