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NelKor
2009-11-05, 12:49 AM
If you summon say.. a Shadow with Summon Undead, Would it create a spawn if it killed something?

Ponce
2009-11-05, 12:56 AM
As written? Yeah... The ability of undead minions to create their own loyal spawn can be a highly potent and game-breaking element of the rules when it is put in the hands of the player. Which it is. Extensively.

Summon Undead merely allows the player to commit a sort of shadow-powered genocide against a city or some other target. Actually creating a permanently loyal shadow (or wight, or whatever) lets you do the same but also build up a giant army of undead far larger than anything a player is really meant to have access to.

NelKor
2009-11-05, 01:01 AM
Thanks for the answer, i agree its broken but i'm just trying to convince a friend it does indeed work.

Pika...
2009-11-05, 01:07 AM
But the thing is, when the summoned creature goes no one is controlling the spawn.

Vortling
2009-11-05, 01:21 AM
But the thing is, when the summoned creature goes no one is controlling the spawn.
Unless of course you happened to be a cleric who can rebuke undead.

Jergmo
2009-11-05, 01:23 AM
Unless of course you happened to be a cleric who can rebuke undead.

And how is that cleric going to rebuke an army of shadows that is growing in number? :smallconfused:

starwoof
2009-11-05, 01:25 AM
1. Summon a shadow
2. Have that shadow make a shadow
3. Gain control of the new shadow
4. Use new shadow to make an army of shadows

NelKor
2009-11-05, 01:25 AM
And how is that cleric going to rebuke an army of shadows that is growing in number? :smallconfused:

Technically if you rebuke the first one you control them all through a series of generals :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2009-11-05, 01:34 AM
Technically if you rebuke the first one you control them all through a series of generals :smallbiggrin:

Just make sure the summoned undead only kills a manageable amount.

Gnorman
2009-11-05, 01:37 AM
From the SRD:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

Now, admittedly this is from the entry for Summon Monster, but considering that Summon Undead "functions like Summon Monster," it applies.

So no, summoned undead cannot spawn other undead, as that would be "otherwise conjuring" them.

sofawall
2009-11-05, 01:42 AM
From the SRD:

Now, admittedly this is from the entry for Summon Monster, but considering that Summon Undead "functions like Summon Monster," it applies.

So no, summoned undead cannot spawn other undead, as that would be "otherwise conjuring" them.

But does spawning undead qualify as conjuring them? You aren't making a shadow, you're transforming the enemy into a shadow. More polymorph than summon.

Gnorman
2009-11-05, 01:46 AM
But does spawning undead qualify as conjuring them? You aren't making a shadow, you're transforming the enemy into a shadow. More polymorph than summon.

This gets down to the semantic meaning of "conjure," which I take in context to mean "summon, invoke, create, or spawn" rather than literally a Conjuration effect.

Interpretations may vary. But I don't believe those spells were intended to allow it.

NelKor
2009-11-05, 01:47 AM
This gets down to the semantic meaning of "conjure," which I take in context to mean "summon, invoke, create, or spawn."

Interpretations may vary. But I don't believe those spells were intended to allow it.


I don't think half of the wizard/sorcerer spells were intended to allow what they do, but thats me. I agree it depends on how you interpret "Spawn" and "Conjure"

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-05, 01:49 AM
This gets down to the semantic meaning of "conjure," which I take in context to mean "summon, invoke, create, or spawn" rather than literally a Conjuration effect.

Interpretations may vary. But I don't believe those spells were intended to allow it.The entire premise of the Wightocalypse was never intended. Should Enervation be able to wipe out entire cities? No. But it can. Rebuke Undead was never meant to let you wage war against all civilized peoples, but it does. RAI is useless in this case. We need to be going by RAMS or RAB.

Pika...
2009-11-05, 02:04 AM
In the end it all boils down to either DM experience, or DM common sense.

Perhaps the OP's DM knows that by the rules as written it does work, but he is basically hinting "Not in my games buddy"?

Zaydos
2009-11-05, 02:07 AM
The entire premise of the Wightocalypse was never intended. Should Enervation be able to wipe out entire cities? No. But it can. Rebuke Undead was never meant to let you wage war against all civilized peoples, but it does. RAI is useless in this case. We need to be going by RAMS or RAB.

I thought rebuke undead was meant to let you wage war against all civilized people, what with the whole evil cleric dominating an army of undead to wage war against all civilized peoples motif.

RAW yes it should work. In any of the others no.

Coidzor
2009-11-05, 02:24 AM
I thought rebuke undead was meant to let you wage war against all civilized people, what with the whole evil cleric dominating an army of undead to wage war against all civilized peoples motif.

RAW yes it should work. In any of the others no.

Well, yes, but GAI was for the PCs to be hobos who break down doors, kill monsters, and take their stuff.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-05, 03:59 AM
The entire premise of the Wightocalypse was never intended. Should Enervation be able to wipe out entire cities? No. But it can. Rebuke Undead was never meant to let you wage war against all civilized peoples, but it does. RAI is useless in this case. We need to be going by RAMS or RAB.
IMO stuff like this has to be houseruled ... leaving it in as is is stupid, there is no way to play it as intended because nothing was intended. They were simply smoking crack.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-05, 08:12 AM
What does RAB stand for? Much better-looking than the horribly non-parallel "RAMS" that's going around.

Thurbane
2009-11-05, 08:06 PM
I think it would be a reasonable house rule to say that, like Teleport and Summoning abilities, Create Spawn abilities are suppressed for Summoned creatures.

Akal Saris
2009-11-06, 12:13 AM
I suspect RAB is Rules as Balanced, which is quite similar to the more widespread RAI, Rules as Intended.

I've never understood why people assume that those killed by enervation automatically raise as wights.

Wights are created by negative energy, true, but half-elves are created by humans and elves having sex, and not every one night stand creates a half-elf - and while I cringe at what I just wrote, the point is that the DM in justified in ruling that a wight is only created by negative energy when something really strange is going on, like a vengeful soul dying unappeased or something.

As for summoned shadows creating spawn - well, yes, technically they should be able to do so, but it's certainly not healthy for game balance :P As Frank and K said in their guide to necromancy, "You will crush the world under an ephemeral boot." Still, it does make the Master of Shrouds that much more awesome :)

tyckspoon
2009-11-06, 12:35 AM
I suspect RAB is Rules as Balanced, which is quite similar to the more widespread RAI, Rules as Intended.

I've never understood why people assume that those killed by enervation automatically raise as wights.


Because this line, in the section on special abilities, Energy Drains and Negative Levels (which is, I believe, the actual primary reference on how they work- the stuff in Conditions is just a quick summary)-


A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

You kill something with negative levels, it's coming back undead. A DM can certainly rule otherwise, and it would probably be wise (otherwise negative level effects are really rather unwise to throw around, and should probably be tagged [Evil] like almost all other Undead-creating abilities) but the rule itself suggest nothing rare or unusual is needed; Wights are as easy as draining a Commoner.

Gralamin
2009-11-06, 12:37 AM
Because this line, in the section on special abilities, Energy Drains and Negative Levels (which is, I believe, the actual primary reference on how they work- the stuff in Conditions is just a quick summary)
You'd be correct. Mostly. Technically the source rules apply to entire books, however this expands upon the former however you look at it.