PDA

View Full Version : Evocation player trying out Enchantment for the first time



dyslexicfaser
2009-11-05, 04:52 AM
As the title says, I'm hoping to pick some people's brains.

Me and Evocation have had a good run. Great Thunderclap, Channelled Sonic Blast, Detonate, and yes, even the old standby Fireball. Bigby's Grasping Hand and Howling Chain. Contingency and Forcecage. Hell, even Submerge Ship has seen some use.

How does Enchantment measure up? I'm told the Power Words are near worthless against any kind of BBEG, and but surely there're gems to be found in there?

Bayar
2009-11-05, 04:57 AM
Not really. Enchantment is the smallest schools out there. Most of the effects of enchantment spells are negated by immunities by later levels.

Chineselegolas
2009-11-05, 04:57 AM
This is an Orange. This is an Apple.

Right, now those are out of the way, playing an Enchanter is very different from an Evoker.
Charm Person, don't fight them, get them to sit down and discuss your differences, then they wander home to check on their family.
Hideous Laughter. They stop doing stuff
Hold Person. You are humaniod?, welcome to coup-de-gras
Confusion. It back and let the enemy kill themselves

Don't look for straight elimination of opponents when dealing with Enchantments, look for ways to stop them doing stuff, or do things for you.

Eldariel
2009-11-05, 05:40 AM
There are few great Enchantments (see esp. Otto's Irresistible Dance), but all of them have a common weakness: Immunity to mind-affecting stops them. And unfortunately, such immunity is quite common on higher levels, if only due to the existence of Mind Blank.

The few buffs also kinda don't function with Mind Blank since it negates morale bonuses. That said, on lower levels it's a great school. Lots of SoDs, nice buffs and such.

The best combat cantrip, Daze, is enchantment. One of the two encounter ender level 1s, Sleep, is Enchantment (though the slow casting time is a problem; its range kinda makes up for that tho). Charm Person is definitely also a beneficial spell. Shock and Awe [SpC] is kinda funny, but consumes your Surprise Round so meh. Still, -10 to Initiative is nothing to sneeze at. Finally, Power Word: Pain [RoTD] is quite possibly the most efficient combat spell on level 1. So good that it's banned in arenas. Power Word: Fatigue is only good vs. already Fatigued people tho. Exhausted is quite a brutal condition; Fatigued only mildly uncomfortable.

Level 2, there's the caster killer Touch of Idiocy and a nice SoD without HD cap in Hideous Laughter. There's also the absolutely incredible Ray of Stupidity in SpC that nukes any animal Int creature with just a touch attack. Mechanuc Mind [SpC] can be a decent Will-save buff. There's also Power Word: Sicken, but it's not really that impressive. I prefer Fatigue, frankly 'cause of the escalation to Exhausted.

Then, on level 3 you have two handy buffs in Heroism & Rage. Coupled with Ray of Dizziness [SpC] for no-save Slow on single opponent and you've got a decent round-up. And surely you can think of something to do with Suggestion. Power Words: Maladroit and Weaken to knock Dex or Str down also exist, though mostly useful for trying to knock a Fighter with all his gear down. Too bad it's only -2. Deafen is nice...except Silence is just better most of the time.

Level 4 has Confusion (bloody obvious), Charm Monster & Lesser Geas. Battle Hymn [SpC] has some defensive uses too. Power Word: Distract is interesting, but mostly useful in conjuction with Rogue-abilities.

Level 5 has the obvious: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Feeblemind. Power Word: Disable knocks anyone at 50- HP down so it can be decent, though you'd mostly probably rather SoD people.

Level 6 has like...Greater Heroism [short duration tho], Geas and Freezing Glance [Frost]. Freezing Glance is the kind of spell Enchantment would need more of to remain viable; it's a non-mind affecting Gaze-attack that...well, freezes people in place. There's also Power Word: Nauseate which is really good. 'cause Nauseated people can't act.

Level 7 has Power Word: Blind, Symbol of Stunning, etc. Handy stuff, but the Mind-Affecting label begins to be a real issue already.

Level 8 has Irresistible Dance. There's also a great deal of utility like Demand, Antipathy, Sympathy, etc. but this level is a bit high for utility. The Power Words are...meh. Petrify is kinda like Kill, but 100 HP or less is a real issue. And Stun is just meh. Mind of the Labyrinth [DM] is a fun Mind Blank-substitute, but just not nearly as good.

Level 9 has Dominate Monster. I can't deny that your own Tarrasque has some appeal. Still...meh. See also Programmed Amnesia, Mind Rape (Yes, Best Spell Ever™) and company.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-05, 06:01 AM
As the title says, I'm hoping to pick some people's brains.

Me and Evocation have had a good run. Great Thunderclap, Channelled Sonic Blast, Detonate, and yes, even the old standby Fireball. Bigby's Grasping Hand and Howling Chain. Contingency and Forcecage. Hell, even Submerge Ship has seen some use.

How does Enchantment measure up? I'm told the Power Words are near worthless against any kind of BBEG, and but surely there're gems to be found in there?

First off - see if you can get your DM to allow the Nightmare Spinner variant (found at the bottom of the section) which will let you affect creatures typically immune to you (which will be sadly common at mid-high levels).

Next, Enchantment is just plain fun (albeit, it's most useful at low levels unless the variant is allowed). I'll list off some spells you might like, although I'll concentrate on the lower level ones.

Charm Person has already been mentioned, but really this is best out of combat (and forget solving THEIR problems). Grab Complete Scoundrel and net the skill trick which lets you cast without being noticed, use it in social situations to convince everyone to help you (or when you want to bend someones mind into new shapes without their noticing).

Sleep, the low level save or die. Really, who hasn't used this?

Tasha's Hideous Laughter, well look here. Yet another low level disable, and this one without sleeps irritating limits (albeit it won't let you coup).

Entice Gift is another great out of combat one, but can also be useful outside social situations (BBEG got your Macguffin? This is the solution right here). This is a perennial favorite of mine combined with the skill trick to stop people from noticing you cast.

Ray of Stupidity... What can I say? This is probably to good really. No save, 1d4+1 int damage. Screw killing people by HP.

Deep Slumber, sleep again.

Suggestion is just plain beautiful. Charm Person not getting those pesky soon to be slaves to follow your orders? Resort to this baby.

Hold Person, not a personal favorite but useful.

Charm Monster is an upgrade to Charm Person basically.

Geas, lesser, control over your slaves just keeps getting better doesn't it?

Dominate Person, it begins. You now hold absolute dominion over these pitiful beings.

Dominate Monster, everyone is now your toy. Please make use of the demonic evil laughter you've been practicing up until now.

Mind Rape, if when you read this spell you aren't knocked unconscious by the sheer beauty of it something is wrong with you.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Eldariel
2009-11-05, 06:02 AM
Oh yeah, Book of Vile Darkness overall has a decent number of Enchantments. May be worth a look.

Eldan
2009-11-05, 06:58 AM
Entice gift is really a beautiful spell.

"Oh, what's that? Your greatsword? Thanks a lot, Mister Orc."

sonofzeal
2009-11-05, 07:04 AM
Entice gift is really a beautiful spell.

"Oh, what's that? Your greatsword? Thanks a lot, Mister Orc."

I have a character who's going to ride on this heavily. He's going to style himself as an ambassador from an obscure land, and will go around demanding tribute as homage to his illustrious homeland.

ericgrau
2009-11-05, 09:18 AM
Enchantment can be done, but it only works on some enemies. Best to have some backup spells.

Dimers
2009-11-05, 12:14 PM
Feeblemind is better than normal against arcane casters, who save at -4. Has to be actual spells -- doesn't include spell-like abilities.

While there are plenty of creature types that are inherently immune to mind-affecting magic, mind blank is definitely a problem too. See if your DM will approve an arcane version of the psionic shatter mind blank, a 5th-level power.

Radiun
2009-11-05, 12:23 PM
Mindless Rage is a nice little 2nd level spell to reduce casters to... well, barbarians really.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-05, 12:30 PM
If you're going to be an enchanter, I suggest a couple other schools as well, for support. Enchantment can't stand on its own.

1) Abjuration. With good feat/ability/item selection, you can have very powerful dispels. It's feasible to be able to dispel 20th level effects as early as level 13, without an incredible level of investment. This is important for the spells that literally turn enchantment off. Things like Mind Blank.

2) Transmutation. Not everything has a brain. So give it one. Polymorph can shift many things into forms more vulnerable to enchantment.

Note: Anything with an intelligence of less than 1 is automatically immune to mind affecting abilities. Backup schools let you deal with those. Whether that school is transmutation, conjuration, or what-have-you, you'll be well served in having diversity.

My personal favorite choices for school specialization are transmutation, conjuration, and abjuration. Transmutation is fun, Conjuration is powerful and flexible, and Abjuration is good for dispel/counterspell specialists.