PDA

View Full Version : Making a more balanced list of classes



Natael
2009-11-05, 10:59 AM
I'm trying to put together a list of allowed classes for running a campaign, likely going to be starting a new one, and the DM seems receptive to some suggestions like this, I'm curious what you all think, and maybe check if I'm missing something (like a well balanced class to add or a still too powerful class to either remove or limit). I'm probably the most competent power-gamer in the group, and can definitely tone myself down a little, but I still think using and sharing this with the forums is a good idea/project.

Allowed Classes:

Core sans Cleric and Wizard
Complete series
XPH
PHB2
Dragonfire Adept (based on player interest and uising the Warlock, considering not bothering, but the boards seem to like it)
ToB (effectively replacing Fighter/Paladin/Monk)
Binder
Factoum

Changes to Classes:

Druid - Druid is required to take the PHB2 alternate class feature instead of wildshape.

Ranger - Animal companions are determined by fill ranger level, rather than half ranger level. Also gets +1 attack and AC bonus against favored enemies, which increases by 1 each time the other bonuses do.

Sorcerer - Get a bonus feat at first level, which can either be Echew Materials or a Heritage feat (such as draconic or fey as in Complete Arcane, Races of the Dragon, and Planar Handbook). As well get bonus feats at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, which can be taken from the wizard bonus feat list or as a heritage feat. (considering reducing this to only heritage feats, maybe at more frequent intervals or intermixed with fewer metamagic, while granting eschew and a heritage at first level). This is probably the class I'm most unsure of specific changes

Swordsage -
Add: Wis to AC w/o Armor (probably doesn't need to be stated)
The unarmed variant is as follows:
Add:
Monk unarmed damage progression
Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level
club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Remove:
Normal weapon proficiencies
Light armor proficiency
Ability to get wis to AC bonus while in light armor

Only dealing with base classes at the moment, likely going to just make PrCs and ACF as per DM perogative. This removes silly powerful classes like the wizard and cleric, doesn't even consider stuff like Achivist and Artificer, and lowers the druid's power significantly, while making the sorcerer more up to par and flavourful.

Feats (not putting a lot of effort in them for this specific part of the project, just a couple quick fixes to PHB feats):
Only have to take TWF once and you get the whole tree.
Weapon Finesse counts for all applicable weapons and can be taken at BaB 0.

infinitypanda
2009-11-05, 11:05 AM
If you're going for balance, I would vote against buffing sorcerers. They're already really strong. Also a lot of the completes have varying power levels among their classes, but there's really nothing you can do about that.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 11:05 AM
Oh, we do this every week :smallbiggrin:

There's a consensually accepted tier list.

A simple way of playing this would be by taking all tier-3 classes (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder, Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, and Psionic Warrior) or instead all tier-4 classes (Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, and Dungeoncrash FIghter)

In essence, that means you don't play with alot of PHB classes, but there's the standard substitutions (wizard => beguiler or dread necro, monk => unarmed swordsage, and so forth)

Natael
2009-11-05, 11:09 AM
If you're going for balance, I would vote against buffing sorcerers. They're already really strong. Also a lot of the completes have varying power levels among their classes, but there's really nothing you can do about that.

More trying to tone down/remove some of the huger power houses, while not trying to clean up too heavily the weaker classes (especially since you can just play a rogue/sword sage if you wanted a strong ninja, rather than buffing the ninja, but no reasonable sense in banning it).

Good point on the sorc, part of it was originally trying to buff it up to the wizard, but now that I've decided to do away with the wizard, leaving sorc as is may be best. I do like the heritage/eschew flavour though, and they tend not to be all that powerful in the first place.

Gnaeus
2009-11-05, 11:09 AM
Just go ahead and drop the druid. It is still a tier 1 caster. Replace with Spirit Shaman and Wildshape variant Ranger.

If Tier 1s are removed, the Sorcerer doesn't need a bunch of extra feats. He has already graduated to the head of the class.

Elves-as-People
2009-11-05, 11:09 AM
Where is the tier list at?

Gnaeus
2009-11-05, 11:11 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

That is JaronK's list, which is probably the most accepted. There would be minor changes to it depending on which books are allowed and the assumptions made in your personal game, but while you can fight endlessly about which classes should be up or down 1 tier, this overall structure is informative.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-05, 11:30 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

That is JaronK's list, which is probably the most accepted.

There's also this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6383308&postcount=17), which is based on a forumwide poll on the WOTC boards. It matches up pretty well with Jaronk's list, too.

For instance, both have the power order of PHB/SRD classes as
1.Wizard
2.Cleric and Druid
3.Sorcerer
4.Rogue and Bard
5.Ranger
6.Paladin
7.Fighter
8.Adept and Monk
9.Other NPC classes

Gnaeus
2009-11-05, 12:12 PM
There's also this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6383308&postcount=17), which is based on a forumwide poll on the WOTC boards. It matches up pretty well with Jaronk's list, too.

For instance, both have the power order of PHB/SRD classes as
1.Wizard
2.Cleric and Druid
3.Sorcerer
4.Rogue and Bard
5.Ranger
6.Paladin
7.Fighter
8.Adept and Monk
9.Other NPC classes

Personally, I like Kurald's list at least as well, probably better. But when you hear people talking about a tier 1 or a tier 4, you should look at JaronK's list to see what they mean. You won't hear the term "Supreme tier" much on the boards.

Set
2009-11-05, 12:22 PM
Another way to roughly 'balance' the classes would be to allow players interested in lower tier classes to take a race with a level adjustment (or a template of some kind).

Another option I saw was to allow some classes to Gestalt with NPC classes, to fluff them up a bit. A Fighter or Monk in a party with a Cleric or Druid might be allowed to get a free Expert Gestalt mixed in, to make him more skillful and utilitiarian, even if not actually more powerful, so that he isn't trapped in a specific (and quickly overshadowed) niche.

Making the point-buy vary is yet a third option, and could be mixed with one of the others. 15 pt. buy for Bob the Wizard, 25 pt. buy for Jane the Fighter.

Or you could use Arcana Unearthed classes, which I've heard argued to be better balanced among themselves (although, having played an Akashic at a convention, I vehemently disagree...).

A final option would be to find a way to strongly nerf the Cleric and Druid, such as to require them to choose prepared spellcasting (same preparation rules, but they now have to acquire spells like a Wizard, gaining 2 per level free, and having to purchase and scribe the rest into prayerbooks or runesticks or whatever) or spontaneous casting (spells known limited like a Sorcerer to a small inflexible list).

Draz74
2009-11-05, 12:32 PM
An interesting (if not practical) exercise is to try to find 11 classes, all of them fairly well-balanced and non-Vancian, that can cover the same range of archetypes as the 11 PHB classes (and then some). I haven't been 100% satisfied with any list I've seen, but you can get pretty close.


Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Ardent
Psychic Warrior
Psion, with all remotely-broken Powers banned
Totemist
Factotum
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Homebrew hybrid Scout/Ranger class


... that's not too bad.