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Zincorium
2009-11-05, 01:15 PM
Alright, so I was reading through Unearthed Arcana (hush, you in the cheap seats!) and found a few things that I felt an urge to explore a bit further for an upcoming game.

Namely, a combination of Class defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) and Damage Conversion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm). I've never even heard of the second one ever mentioned, so it's all theory at this point.

A few things that may affect this: I'm looking at significant alterations to classes, such that there aren't any core classes around, and the only classes in category A of the chart are psion and wilder. Additionally, healing will not be cheap and abundant, so faster healing naturally is a good thing.

The overall goal is to preserve the use of armor (due to it's conservation of your precious, precious hit points) but also make lightly or non-armored characters still viable. But I still have a few questions, like:
Is the swordsage overpowered with a class AC bonus in addition to wisdom?
Will the system be excessively complicated for most people?
Is the coup de grace-ing of enemies out of line for a campaign that's low in grimdark?
Does it trivialize combat for heavily armored characters?

I'm looking for some outside input before trying to explain all of the ins and outs of this combination to a group I've only played with twice before and haven't DMed for until soonish, and while I'm on the subject of making a very different game from standard D&D, does anyone else have any suggestions that they think might prove interesting?

lsfreak
2009-11-05, 01:33 PM
People will still go down as fast as normal. I have 30 hit points and 10AC bonus. I am hit for 30 damage. Normally, I get hit for 30 damage and am staggered. With the variant, 20 of that is lethal damage, 10 is nonlethal, and I am staggered. One more point of damage (of any type) drops me unconscious in both cases.

It's just that once I rest, I'll get that health back faster since part of it is nonlethal.

jiriku
2009-11-05, 01:52 PM
1. Is the swordsage overpowered with a class AC bonus in addition to wisdom?
2. Will the system be excessively complicated for most people?
3. Is the coup de grace-ing of enemies out of line for a campaign that's low in grimdark?
4. Does it trivialize combat for heavily armored characters?


1. No. The swordsage would use defense column B, or column A if you use the unarmed swordsage variant.

2. Probably. The damage conversion system adds substantially to bookkeeping both during and after combat.

3. This will depend heavily on how you manage the campaign and how your players roleplay.

4. It will encourage risktaking by armored characters. A character in heavy plate will essentially never die unless hit with a grossly overwhelming attack, and can walk off most of his injuries. An unarmored character, on the other hand, faces the usual risk of death and will have more trouble finding healing besides. Although, if you allow any classes with access to healing spells, I question how effectively you'll be able to limit access to healing. Players don't like for their characters to die, campaign flavor be damned.


My 2 coppers:

Defense bonus is a great idea for creating a campaign where players don't have to clank around with 20 pound of steel on their backs to survive. This is a great optional rule, tried and tested in d20 Star Wars and found to be highly effective.

Damage Conversion is a dog that should be taken out back and shot. It doubles the bookkeeping for players, and could drive the DM to suicide. Try managing a combat with four orcs in leather armor, three in chainmail, two casters in no armor and an orc chieftan in plate armor, and you'll see what I mean. You will regret using it.

Zincorium
2009-11-05, 02:12 PM
@Isfreak: yeah, that's mainly what I'm going for, with the additional note that under this system unconscious characters aren't worried about bleeding to death, unless they're squishy mages.

@Jiruku:

I'm aware of the how of the swordsage, try to assume the intelligence of at least a bright 6 year old on my part. I'm still interested in whether it would be a significant power bump (which the swordsage doesn't need).

No casters with spontaneous healing + no magic marts + not giving out wands like halloween candy. That should do it. If the player wants to play heal bot, at least it'll be better appreciated.

Defense bonus is something I've played with in both D20 Modern and Star wars, but this variant works differently, because it doesn't stack with worn armor, you just take the higher value. It utterly negates the idea of using light or medium armor without some other addition.

Are you speaking from experience with the damage conversion, or is this just speculation? Because I can't for the life of me think of why I would keep track of the two for monsters unless healing was going to be used on their behalf. They're still unconscious when the players have dealt damage equal to their HP, the subdual damage matters mostly for the players, keeping them from dying quite so easily and whatnot.

Douglas
2009-11-05, 02:29 PM
I'm aware of the how of the swordsage, try to assume the intelligence of at least a bright 6 year old on my part. I'm still interested in whether it would be a significant power bump (which the swordsage doesn't need).
It would be no more of a boost to the Swordsage than to any other class that is limited to light armor. If Swordsages aren't broken with both light armor and wisdom to AC, then they aren't broken with both defense bonus column B and wisdom to AC either.

I would, however, rule that multiclassing or taking an armor proficiency feat to get a better defense bonus doesn't work unless they give up the wisdom bonus. The Swordsage AC bonus is normally limited to light armor only, so with this variant in play it should limit your defense bonus to column B.

Set
2009-11-05, 04:26 PM
Namely, a combination of Class defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) and Damage Conversion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm). I've never even heard of the second one ever mentioned, so it's all theory at this point.

I would be more inclined to keep the defense bonus, but replace damage conversion with a tiered health / vitality point scheme, where the characters have 'health points' equal to their constitution scores, and then gain class HD in 'vitality points' that are taken first as damage. Vitality points return as nonlethal damage, meaning that most damage restores relatively quickly, except for those last health points, which could take days, or even weeks, to recover through natural healing. Some rare attacks, like a Slay Living spell or some undead energy drains, might inflict actual health point damage, but most attacks would inflict only Vitality damage until your vitality is out, and only then inflict Health damage.

[Note that there are dozens of different ways to mix this up. Monte Cook uses Health and Grace points, in his Book of Experimental Might, I think Star Wars d20 uses a similar system and it's mentioned in Unearthed Arcana, IIRC.]

If healing magic is sharply restricted, I would also consider giving some sort of Treat Deadly Wound version of Heal to first restore a few points of Vitality Damage (up to a maximum number per day that can be healed through the Heal skill, say, equal to Con mod (min 1) x HD), or Health Damage (which would be even more restricted, say, no more than Con mod / day, total, with a minimum of 1). Such a use would consume a use from a Healing Kit (or be doable at -5 in the absence of a kit). Profession (herbalism) might be an alternative means of restoring hit points, allowing someone to recover vitality damage or health damage faster over night or something, or it might just be a useful skill to recharge that Healing Kit, making rolls to find herbs necessary to gain new 'uses' as you forage.

Fluffles
2009-11-05, 04:30 PM
I would, however, rule that multiclassing or taking an armor proficiency feat to get a better defense bonus doesn't work unless they give up the wisdom bonus. The Swordsage AC bonus is normally limited to light armor only, so with this variant in play it should limit your defense bonus to column B.

It's annoying how many people ignore the FAQ.

Swordsages get their Wis to AC even when wearing no armor.

Otodetu
2009-11-05, 05:09 PM
I would think hard about limiting healing, as my experiences is that is also limits the fun, nothing sucks more than having to wait around to heal slowly from injuries.

jiriku
2009-11-05, 05:45 PM
@Jiruku:

I'm aware of the how of the swordsage, try to assume the intelligence of at least a bright 6 year old on my part. I'm still interested in whether it would be a significant power bump (which the swordsage doesn't need).

No casters with spontaneous healing + no magic marts + not giving out wands like halloween candy. That should do it. If the player wants to play heal bot, at least it'll be better appreciated.

Defense bonus is something I've played with in both D20 Modern and Star wars, but this variant works differently, because it doesn't stack with worn armor, you just take the higher value. It utterly negates the idea of using light or medium armor without some other addition.

Are you speaking from experience with the damage conversion, or is this just speculation? Because I can't for the life of me think of why I would keep track of the two for monsters unless healing was going to be used on their behalf. They're still unconscious when the players have dealt damage equal to their HP, the subdual damage matters mostly for the players, keeping them from dying quite so easily and whatnot.

Sorry, I guess my answer wasn't well worded. I'm at work and I try to keep my slacking to a minimum, so I type real fast. :smallbiggrin: No insult to you was intended; I apologize for coming across that way.

Swordsage is A-OK with defensive bonus; the change is power-neutral.

I have not used the Damage Conversion rule, but I have used the Armor as Damage Reduction rule, which is quite similar. It's a beast. However, if you don't intend to track it for your monsters, that removes a big ball-and-chain from around your leg. It still imposes a burden on your players, as they must divide out their damage every time they get hit and track damage and healing on two separate gauges. Experts won't mind, but novices and casual players will struggle.

If you're wanting a system that allows players to shrug off superficial damage but makes recovering from serious injury difficult, I highly recommend the Wound/Vitality point system in UA. I've used it extensively, and I find it slows gameplay only minimally. Plus, becoming fatigued or exhausted from Wound damage actually assigns an in-game penalty for getting hurt, which has always been conspiciously missing from D&D.

sofawall
2009-11-06, 03:00 AM
It's annoying how many people ignore the FAQ.

Swordsages get their Wis to AC even when wearing no armor.

No, what's annoying is getting the worst errata of all time, seeing as how the FAQ is both unofficial and a standing joke.

oxinabox
2009-11-06, 05:49 AM
{Scrubbed}

Keld Denar
2009-11-06, 05:56 AM
No casters with spontaneous healing + no magic marts + not giving out wands like halloween candy. That should do it. If the player wants to play heal bot, at least it'll be better appreciated.

This makes me a sad panda. I've played effective healing characters who do other stuff, but being a dedicated healer is pretty much the most boring thing ever. Alternative sources of healing, especially OOC healing ENCOURAGE character diversity, rather than limit it.

That's all I have to say on that topic. :(

Zincorium
2009-11-06, 09:41 AM
This makes me a sad panda. I've played effective healing characters who do other stuff, but being a dedicated healer is pretty much the most boring thing ever. Alternative sources of healing, especially OOC healing ENCOURAGE character diversity, rather than limit it.

That's all I have to say on that topic. :(

I do believe that I'm not being clear on which is the cause and which is the solution.

Buying wands of lesser vigor from magic mart or blowing all spell slots on healing spontaneously goes strongly against my ideas of what D&D should be played as. I could DM in that fashion, but I wouldn't enjoy it. But I don't want to handwave the healing at each rest like a video game or cause the players to be limping at deaths door the entire session either. Damage conversion and wound/vitality both are acceptable alternatives, but

Health and vitality would have a worse paperwork problem (I have played a good deal of star wars d20) and a greater number of rules (critical hits, certain spells, etc), in addition to it's failure to address one of my primary goals, which is to make all options (light, medium, and heavy armor) attractive to characters which have the choice of which to go with. Armor as DR could offset that, but it adds time to combat and I would have to keep track of it for monsters.


Still, the general consensus is that despite nobody ever using it, it manifestly sucks, so back to square one with the magic marts and such.

Riffington
2009-11-06, 03:59 PM
No, what's annoying is getting the worst errata of all time, seeing as how the FAQ is both unofficial and a standing joke.

The Official D&D Game Rule FAQ is in fact official.
Most of the D&D rulesets are standing jokes; it's still fun to play.
But hey, if you want to deprive Swordsages of the unarmored Wis bonus, go ahead. It's your game.