Evidence that V is male:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Set down your torches and pitchforks people, this one's lighthearted.

I believe I might have inadvertently stumbled across a theory that may settle the debate on V's gender once and for all. Strangely enough, the key to this heated riddle lies, not with the character's spouse, but with a certain red-headed kleptomaniac within the party.

Some time ago, it came to my attention that the only party member that V seems to have much genuine affection for is Haley. Initially, this confused me to no end as the only one in the party more CG than her is Elan, and V's about as LE as it gets without trading in paladin levels (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DnD_InWorksApril_Blackguard.jpg) (if you know what I mean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKnowWhatIMean)). So I did a little homework and found this line under the Rogue's "Trapfinding" class feature:

"Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps."

I'm sure some of you have already caught on to where I'm headed with this, but I'll spell it out anyway. The most important words within the line above are the first four and the last three. I shall explain the importance of the last three terms so as to put the first four into context:

Disarm: The relevant definition for the term is: to divest or relieve of hostility, suspicion, etc.; win the affection or approval of; charm: His smile disarmed us.

Magic: V is a Wizard.

Trap: If my theory holds any weight, this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgetOnHim) should explain the significance of this final term.

It strikes me as a curious co-incidence that the only member of the party with this trait is also the same one with the closest relationship to V despite the fact they they have near polar opposite personalities and motivations. :smallbiggrin:

Even more to the point, if one takes apart the skill needed to use this class feature:

Disable: to make legally incapable; disqualify

Device: instrument, tool

She alone has shown to have this extraordinary trait, and thus is literally the only member of the group able to functionally 'disqualify' V as a 'tool' by way of her ability to 'disarm' 'magic' 'traps'. :smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/NamonakiRei/Facepalm.png

[Kaytara]

Putting aside the fact that V's alignment is a subject of heated debate (among those who don't think him some form of Neutral, anyway).... bwuh?

Well, this is one of the more original (and by that I mean entertainingly convoluted) hypotheses. XD

But Occam's Razor totally pwns you. It neatly shaves away any explanation of V and Haley's friendship that isn't tied to the fact that friendships between different people just happen and their personalities in this case aren't that incompatible, anyway, Haley having trusting problems and V being a private person and apparently a very good confidante, never mind that they both have a ruthlessly pragmatic streak and alignment really shouldn't be an obstacle.

[Bibliomancer]

If Haley did this, wouldn't that foster resentment, not friendship? Besides, it's V who can cast Enchantment spells, not Haley.

Also, a trap is specifically defined as a spell that is permanent (or has a very long duration), in a set position with a triggering mechanism besides the caster shouting "NOW!" Examples include Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, and the Symbol Spells. Additionally, they all have a negative effect (the most mild of which being stasis for eternity or until the caster comes back).

[Assassin89]

Until V shouts "I am a man/woman/confused about my gender identity" or something to that degree (possibly followed by punching someone in the guts), there still is no definitive proof of V's gender. The only way to determine gender is with the words of the author (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod), but he currently refuses to tell us (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10).

[Random832]

But Occam's Razor totally pwns you. It neatly shaves away any explanation of V and Haley's friendship that isn't tied to the fact that friendships between different people just happen and their personalities in this case aren't that incompatible, anyway

Nope. Stuff that just happens is not a testable hypothesis with predictive value, and is thus disqualified as a candidate for Occam's Razor.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Silverraptor: You know you were amused. :smallsmile:

Kaytara: Occam's Razor eh? Show me an equally valid theory with less moving parts and I'll post a pic of me eating my hat. :smalltongue: In any case, I'm glad that you were entertained. Such was the point of the OP. :smallbiggrin:

Bibliomancer: "Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do."

With V being a magic (i.e. wizard) device (i.e. tool), the loose definition fits as was shown by his billing The Paladin for the use of his spell effects in combat. (Yes, I am aware this whole theory is a series of ridiculous stretches in meaning. :smallwink:)

[Bibliomancer]

Nope. Stuff that just happens is not a testable hypothesis with predictive value, and is thus disqualified as a candidate for Occam's Razor.

Just happens in this case is English shorthand for a mutually beneficial social interaction beyond the bounds of what would be required in a work environment developing spontaneously due to compatible personalities.

This can be tested based on, as mentioned, their mutual love of secrets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html), the fact that they are the only two non-definitely male members of the party, and their above average intelligence scores making them the main two people who can hold an extended conversation besides Roy, who's a bit boring. Also, they both have fashion sense. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)

As a result, Occam's Razor is still applicable.


Bibliomancer: "Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do."

With V being a magic (i.e. wizard) device (i.e. tool), the loose definition fits as was shown by his billing The Paladin for the of his spell effects in combat. (Yes, I am aware this whole theory is a series of ridiculous stretches in meaning. :smallwink:)

Fair enough, I was simply fabricating a counter-argument to support my position that V is actually female. This is an amusing logic sequence, though.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Bibliomancer: Yeah... There really is no way to take this theory seriously. I do like the challenge of trying to defend it though. It amuses me to do so almost as much as it did to write the thing in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Atreides]

How on earth is V in any way Lawful?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Atreides: My stance could just be a personal thing but...

"A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises."

-it sounds to me quite like a loose personality summery of V.

[Traker]

I Don't see how this argument has any relavince to V's gender. do's someone care to inlighten me?

[Atreides]

Atreides: My stance could just be a personal thing but...

"A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises."

-it sounds to me quite like a loose personality summery of V.
Except V constantly breaks the laws and seeks out violence out of personal revenge. He is, by the very definition, chaotic.

[Bibliomancer]

I Don't see how this argument has any relavince to V's gender. do's someone care to inlighten me?

Haley, a rogue with ranks in Disable Device, could have "Disabled" V's "Tool," allowing them to become friends and share rooms in spite of the gender gap.

That's the theory anyways, and I counter with this:

How does this give V a fashion sense? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Actually, the theory is even more out there. V himself is the 'tool' (given his typical behavior) and the 'disabling' aspect lies with her ability to alter said behavior so that he no longer qualifies as a 'tool'. It would make sense that she simply beat the DC on the check by 10 so that she can bypass the trap in question without the benefits of said bypass needing to benefit anyone else. The whole theory essentially uses the game rules out of context to explain a social dynamic in such a way as to possibly amuse.

[Kish]

*observes as a thread started as a humorous thread about Vaarsuvius' gender senesces into a serious thread about Vaarsuvius' alignment*

[Bibliomancer]

*observes as a thread started as a humorous thread about Vaarsuvius' gender senesces into a serious thread about Vaarsuvius' alignment*

Not so. 'Tool' like behavior alignment independent (see prefall Miko).

[Mugen Nightgale]

*facepalm*

[Ninja]

Okay, now, can anyone translate this in Common, or anything that makes sense to us that do not know D&D and TVTropes by heart?

[waterpenguin43]

I hate to shove the MBTI into this, but V's and Haley's personality types (in my opinion), can be found here:
V's (http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.html)
Haley's (http://www.personalitypage.com/ESFP.html)
I believe you can guess the compatibility of them, no?

[factotum]

*facepalm*

If you're that disgusted with the thread, why did you resurrect it from two days ago? :smallconfused:

[derfenrirwolv]

... can anyone besides the original poster point out how this is supposed to make any sense at all?

[Ninja]

If you're that disgusted with the thread, why did you resurrect it from two days ago? :smallconfused:

He was just too god-damn impressed with my facepalming (follow the spoiler in the sig). :smallbiggrin:

[Zeful]

Okay for people that don't get the OP.

A trap (besides the obvious) is a reference to very effeminate man dressed as a woman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WholesomeCrossdresser) to the point where many people (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ViewerGenderConfusion) including In-universe characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeLooksLikeALady) do not know that the character is not a woman. This leads to varying levels of shock and disgust when the Character's real gender (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgetOnHim) is revealed.

Haley is a Rogue who, through the use of the ability "Trapfinding" can find magic traps. V is a wizard that may or may not be a "Trap". If V is a "trap" Haley's Trapfinding will tell her, if V's not (which would require a defined gender) then Trapfinding won't work. Trapfinding also allows her to disarm traps. Thus Haley knows V's gender and her statements are correct about the subject.

[Haven]

:biggrin:

OP, you made me laugh, heartily.

[Berserk Monk]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/NamonakiRei/Facepalm.png

Seconded.:smallannoyed:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

For those of you who get it: *high five*

This isn't a serious theory in the least, even though it is no more (or less) valid than any other presented as the gender of the character has been officially ret-conned into 'ambiguous' for the sake of comedic value.

For those who are having a hard time keeping up with the rambling logic I'll add to Zeful's explanation some:

Haley knows V's gender. Period. Due to her 'trapfinding' class ability, she alone can identify both magical and epic 'traps'.

Furthermore, I propose that V IS a trap due to Haley's skill in Disable Device allowing her to bypass the wizard's typical 'tool'-like behavior pattern so as to have a genuinely affectionate interpersonal relationship with him. This aspect of the theory is based entirely on circumstantial evidence, and really carries little weight but (I think) decent comedic value as it plays on a thematically appropriate distortion of the rules.

That said, taking the OP seriously will accomplish little more than taking Voltaire's 'Candide' at face value. :smallbiggrin:

[Gametime]

This is the greatest gender thread ever created.

I came for the pun, I stayed for the masses of people who obviously skimmed the first post and proceeded to argue the point without noticing the *woosh* of the joke flying over their heads.

[Qubanz]

Is there actually anyone who considers V female? And if so why?

Why is this issue actually even a mystery? V's clearly male. (And elves in the OOTS universe DO Have males and females, because since there are half-elves they are a biological sister species to humans. (Not to mention that Pompey the half-elf is male.) and science DOES work in the OOTS universe (the Titanium and Chlorine elementals bit anyone?) So a sister species can't biologically have a completely different way of reproduction, it's impossible.

Plus we also know that V was meant to have a gender at the start and at the start he's referred to as V-man. His behaviour is masculine too. V's a guy plain as daylight. I don't even see why anyone ever got confused in the first place with him. Does he have stickboobs? Nope.


It's the same with the Monster in the Dark. He's clearly a Tarrasque. Because it's either that or a homebrewn monster, and the latter was ruled out because he was said to be something 'recognizable.' Besides if he was a homebrewn monster he might as well be a koozebanian snarffleflumpher.


And whilst I'm on a roll. Tom Bombadil is a nature spirit, Tolkien pretty much said so in his letters. Irrelevant to this discussion, but I never saw why people argued about THAT either, and it came to mind.

[Thor Person Guy]

Is there actually anyone who considers V female? And if so why?

Well, let's look at what we know: S/he has some fashion sense, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) was grabbed by Belkar on NYE (Admittedly, he was quite drunk), (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) Celia brought hir shopping, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) and, as previously mentioned, Haley prefers rooming with hir. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html)


Plus we also know that V was meant to have a gender at the start and at the start he's referred to as V-man. His behavior is masculine too. V's a guy plain as daylight. I don't even see why anyone ever got confused in the first place with him. Does he have stickboobs? Nope.

2 things:
1. Owned. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10)
2. While it's true that V doesn't have stickboobs, it's also true that hir mate doesn't have them either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)

[Meg]

His behaviour is masculine too.

How is V's behaviour masculine? :smallconfused: Meaning no disrespect, but V and I are nigh-on indistinguishable, personality/behavior wise, and last I checked, I'm female.

[Dogmantra]

I think you just broke my brain.

In a good way.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I think you just broke my brain.

In a good way.

I'm... glad? No need to fix what's broken oh so good. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Why is this issue actually even a mystery? V's clearly male.
[...]
It's the same with the Monster in the Dark. He's clearly a Tarrasque.

Given the marked lack of any tarrasque-specific qualities the creature in the darkness shows and the qualities he shows that tarrasques don't have (starting with being able to speak and going on to the teleportation), I'm going to conclude from this that neither assertion is meant seriously.

[Kaytara]

Is there actually anyone who considers V female? And if so why?


Yes. We had a quite long thread about it not long ago, and there was a pretty even split of people claiming male and female. Quite a few times the stance "I always thought V was x, and didn't know it was supposed to be ambiguous until the jokes started about it" was shown. The bizarre thing being, of course, that in that stance V was female as often as male.

As to how the ambiguity was first birthed... I'd say that while V doesn't have an obviously female design, as Haley does, the long neat hair and the fancy-looking headband probably threw quite a few people off. Add in the fact that otherwise Haley is the only female in the group, and V is shown to be her friend and discussing fashion as early as strip 3... Besides which, while not clearly female V's design is a lot less masculine than the clearly male characters'. So, when you see V with a group of males, you automatically note how different they look and think of V as female-ish, and when you see V with females you automatically think of a group of a typical ragtag group of girlfriends, and you still see V as female-ish. Possibly, anyway. No, I don't think the ambiguity is hard to believe.

What Vaarsuvius was originally intended to be doesn't tell us a whit about what V is. :D Body shape isn't definite, anyway. SoD and the main comic have given us all sorts of completely weird elven body shapes, with things like flat chests but otherwise feminine curves....

[Ninja]

I half expected Inkyrius to have a body with one side angled (like a square) and the other side curved....

Anyway, I always though of V as a he, but after seeing Inkyrius I'm not so sure...

[Porthos]

but after seeing Inkyrius I'm not so sure...

You know there are some of us out there who think both Suvie and Kyrie are male. :smalltongue:

[derfenrirwolv]

You know there are some of us out there who think both Suvie and Kyrie are male

Well the kids ARE adopted, and even then there's possibilities like polymorph self (and if the kids were conceived in 3.0, polymorph)

[mockingbyrd7]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/NamonakiRei/Facepalm.png

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Catch]

Joke thread -> SERIOUS BUSINESS responses -> Tangential nitpicks -> New iteration of old argument -> facepalm.jpeg.

Reading comprehension is overrated.

[waterpenguin43]

You know there are some of us out there who think both Suvie and Kyrie are male. :smalltongue:

Or both are female, in my opinion.:smallbiggrin::smallamused:

[ThreadKiller]

Joke thread -> SERIOUS BUSINESS responses -> Tangential nitpicks -> New iteration of old argument -> facepalm.jpeg.

Reading comprehension is overrated.

Seconded.

Isn't it possible that V could be metrosexual? That would explain the fashion bit. :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

Isn't it possible that V could be metrosexual? That would explain the fashion bit. :smallwink:
Did no one notice the hairstyle V had for 95% of the story so far? The idea that V is some kind of fashion expert is ludicrous. And I doubt V would ever REALLY agree that looking good was more important than using a powerful magic item.

:vaarsuvius: "Bah! Physical appearances matter little to me!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)

It's more likely V was barely listening to Haley while she was harping on about clothes, and agreeing with her just to keep up appearances. It's certainly no kind of evidence of gender either way, though.

[lio45]

Besides which, while not clearly female V's design is a lot less masculine than the clearly male characters'.

Elf.

(Apparently "Elf." alone is too short a post, so I'll have to add this.)

[lio45]

2 things:
1. Owned. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10)
2. While it's true that V doesn't have stickboobs, it's also true that hir mate doesn't have them either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)

1. That FAQ was written AFTER Rich decided to make V's gender officially ambiguous.

2. Inkyrius appeared in the strip AFTER Rich decided to make V's gender officially ambiguous.

So what those two things actually prove is that Rich has decided (a long time ago) that V's gender, which was never irreversibly formally established in-comic, was to be (and remain) a mystery for readers, nothing more. Something that... did NOT need any proving whatsoever.

[lio45]

Well, let's look at what we know: S/he has some fashion sense, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) was grabbed by Belkar on NYE (Admittedly, he was quite drunk), (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) Celia brought hir shopping, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) and, as previously mentioned, Haley prefers rooming with hir. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html)

1) I think we can consider the "fashion sense" argument blown to bits by this statement from V:


:vaarsuvius: "Bah! Physical appearances matter little to me!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)

2) Of course the party's only girl will be rooming with V: all the alternatives are clearly strongly male. Regardless of V's actual gender, no one will argue against the fact that he's the less masculine of the [party minus Haley], so in any case he's the best candidate for sharing the room, which means this rooming thing proves nothing. In other words, if we assume V is male, we STILL find that he's the most suitable OotS member to share Haley's room (before she got together with Elan).

3) Not sure we can draw reliable conclusions from a drunk Belkar.

[Mando Knight]

2) Of course the party's only girl will be rooming with V: all the alternatives are clearly strongly male. Regardless of V's actual gender, no one will argue against the fact that he's the less masculine of the [party minus Haley], so in any case he's the best candidate for sharing the room, which means this rooming thing proves nothing. In other words, if we assume V is male, we STILL find that he's the most suitable OotS member to share Haley's room (before she got together with Elan).

V shacking up with a human when V's got Inkyrius also apparently hasn't crossed V's mind. Thus, who best for a young charismatic rogue to room with: insane psychopath, her boss, a charismatic co-worker she has unresolved sexual tension, the smelly short drunk guy, or a married person faithful to its spouse?

[Infidel]

I refer you all to issue 135.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html

A shop assistant quite clearly states "She might have a point" when refering to V. Also, as many have already said, Hayley sleeps in the same room as V, which leads to the assumption V is female. If V was male, then Hayley would want to shack up with Elan, as he is obviously the least masculine and definately a homosexual.

Point proven methinks.

[Porthos]

Point proven methinks.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. :smallsmile:

[Infidel]

An ability to read goes a long way in these parts.

[Tavar]

You do realize that other character's refer to V as him, and several also refer to V's ambiguous gender.

In other words, Argument Fail.

[Infidel]

You do realise that issue 135 was the first issue to call V "him", "her", "it" or anything else, so must be the taken as the correct theory. Anything after that is contradictions and must be disregarded.

In other words, argument win.

[Tavar]

You realize that the Creator himself has said that V's gender is undetermined, and that all reference's to V's gender in the comics are not neccessarily correct?

Also, that arguement doesn't make sense. After all, the people are fallible, are they not? Or is the Order of the Stick truly a bunch of evil people, conniving to bring about the ruin of Azure City, as Miko states?

Thus, you Fail Logic Forever.

[Infidel]

You are taking this far too seriously my friend. And the use of "Fail" fails, and has done since, oh, 2007.

Okay, you go ahead and think what you want, to me, V will always be female as that's what I assumed for whatever reason since first discovering OotS.

Hey, it works for me.

[Tavar]

I'm not taking this seriously. On the other hand, you are objectively incorrect at this point, due to Word of God. That pretty much trumps everything else.

Oh, and so? Just because someone's done something before doesn't mean I can't do it.

[Porthos]

You do realise that issue 135 was the first issue to call V "him", "her", "it" or anything else, so must be the taken as the correct theory. Anything after that is contradictions and must be disregarded.

In other words, argument win.

"V-man" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html) in Strip #9 would seem to contradict your argument. :smallwink:

As for the rest of your arguments about sleeping arrangements...

A) V is married,

B) V is monogamus,

and,

C) V is gay. :smalltongue:

So it makes perfect sense that Haley would bunk up with a dude in her room. If only because of the fact that V was completely uninterested in Haley for the variety of reasons I listed above. :smallamused:

[HotAndCold]

Being a trap doesn't really prove V's gender one way or the other; Sweet Polly Oliver is as much a trap as Bridget is. (I won't argue that V isn't a trap considering that regardless of what gender V actually is, there will be a considerable number of trapped readers.)

[Rhydeble]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that V is a reverse-trap. so when Haley disarms V, she makes him annoying and selfish, once she is near V again, she arms her, so that she can have a healthy relationship with normal V.
V's new problems with Inky are there because Haley disarmed V before the party split up, thus making V a selfish megalomaniac. Inkyrius didn't ask about the soulsplice, but about what evil rogue V had hired to disarm his goodness.
Haley keeps disarming V because she wants the two of them to be able to have private girl-talk.


5 internets to everyone who understands this.

[derfenrirwolv]

no one will argue against the fact that he's the less masculine of the [party minus Haley]

I don't think you need the minus Haley on there. The action girl has more testosterone than "its pat"

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Being a trap doesn't really prove V's gender one way or the other; Sweet Polly Oliver is as much a trap as Bridget is. (I won't argue that V isn't a trap considering that regardless of what gender V actually is, there will be a considerable number of trapped readers.)

A Sweet Polly Oliver is a possibility, but such strikes me as an unlikely scenario as there is less comedic value in it given that we live in a testosterone saturated culture. Then again, I can appreciate a story that involves a father winning the legal rights to raise his kids against an unfit mother. So... *shrug* there is a lot of merit to the claim that a SPO is just as trappish, but in order to disarm a trap, one must understand it. The initial claim that Haley knows V's gender remains unchanged.

[rewinn]

I refer you all to issue 135.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html

A shop assistant quite clearly states "She might have a point" when refering to V...

I don't think "Eve & Larry's Alchemy" is the sort of shop where the shop assistant gets to check your gender.

And FWIW let us not forget that this is the shop whose business model is to "sell at a loss and make it up by VOLUME!" a.k.a. "Not A Reliable Source Of Intelligence"

[good_lookin_gus]

Applying the Rogue's Trapfinding/Disarm Traps abilities to the "It's a Trap!" meme was very clever. The OP could have been made of win. Unfortunately, you decided poison it with links to TVtropes and demonstrably false assertions about V's alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html). I don't pretend to know what V's alignment is, only what it's not (or wasn't).

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Applying the Rogue's Trapfinding/Disarm Traps abilities to the "It's a Trap!" meme was very clever. The OP could have been made of win. Unfortunately, you decided poison it with links to TVtropes and demonstrably false assertions about V's alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html). I don't pretend to know what V's alignment is, only what it's not (or wasn't).

Oh yay! Another opportunity for textual fencing! :smallbiggrin:

First of all, thank you for the compliment. It is very much appreciated. :smallsmile: Now, let's play!

tvtropes: Yes, linking to that time vortex of a site a terrible thing to do to people, but I could think of no better way to explain what a 'trap' was to those not familiar with the meme. I suppose I could have linked to a 'tl;dr' article on the subject, but I'm not quite THAT mean spirited. :smalltongue:

alignment: "demonstrably false assertions" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) you say? At best, I am inclined to think the the subject is still wide open for debate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) until the man himself says his piece on the subject. :smallsmile:

So... while I may not be 'made of win' I'm more than content with the smiles caused by my first post in this thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Larocs Macalar]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/NamonakiRei/Facepalm.png

that means all i thoght after reading his "theories".

So, man, if V is male, y belkar kissed V on new year's eve at azure city, considerating that when V was a lizard he looked under her?
Dont u remember? strip:177, the kiss is after.:smallsmile:

Edited: Oh! and remember, rich said that the caracthers will appearing refereing to V a man and other times as a woman.

[HotAndCold]

And if you recall, when Belkar looked at lizard!V's underside, he remarked that it would answer questions if he knew anything about reptilian anatomy, which he doesn't.

That's not even getting into the fact that Belkar was drunk as a skunk on New Year's.

[good_lookin_gus]

alignment: "demonstrably false assertions" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html) you say? At best, I am inclined to think the the subject is still wide open for debate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) until the man himself says his piece on the subject. :smallsmile:

What does that prove, other than my point stands? I guess it's how you would speculate "in the last few-". I think it means "recently", like around the time V made a pact with Fiends. The comic, comparably, goes way back. V and Haley go back even further. Without any evidence of past alignment spikes, it's safe to assume that V had stayed consistent with hir "Not Evil" reading in 202.

So V and Haley did not have polar opposite alignments throughout most of their relationship. Heck, even when they did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) (if only along the Good/Evil axis), it was a hurdle that required deception to clear.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

:smallconfused: If you read over my comments, not once has the crackpot theory included a need for V to be one alignment or another. I have my own views on the matter, but they are not connected in any way, shape, or form to the subject in the first post. :smallwink:

The core of the theory is that Haley knows which gender V is regardless of what it may be and I speculate that a certain set of her class abilities likely explain a few things if, in fact, V were male.

[good_lookin_gus]

:smallconfused: If you read over my comments, not once has the crackpot theory included a need for V to be one alignment or another. I have my own views on the matter, but they are not connected in any way, shape, or form to the subject in the first post. :smallwink:

The core of the theory is that Haley knows which gender V is regardless of what it may be and I speculate that a certain set of her class abilities likely explain a few things if, in fact, V were male.

Before you accuse me of failing to read what you said, you should have a look at my first post ITT. My contention was not with the Trapfinding Hypothesis, I even complimented you on it. However, during the buildup of said hypothesis, you made a tangental assertion that was false. You muddied your own waters, not me.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I have no idea what assertion you're talking about.

[Kish]

I believe good_looking_gus is talking about declaring Vaarsuvius Lawful Evil.

For my part, I see no problem with it, given that your assertion is in the present tense and the Unholy Blight strip was a very long time and many events ago. :smalltongue:

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Well, it actually makes sense to me, in some odd way. :smallbiggrin:

My personal opinion is that --

1. V started out as male.

2. Readers got confused about his gender because he has long hair and ours is still a largely short-haired society.

3. The Giant took the confusion and applied it to Belkar for comic effect.

4. It worked, so he extended the joke to include everyone else in the game world.

5. V is a homosexual male, whose husband, Inkyrius, just happens to be more in touch with his 'feminine' side and therefore tends to fall into more of a 'feminine' role (baking cookies and keeping the house neat).

6. There's no real mystery, it's all there to see, and Rich is just there laughing uproariously at all the theories and confusion what was originally pretty much a one-off gag caused. :smallsmile: And I don't blame him one bit, because the speculation is probably funnier at this point than the original joke itself .... :smallbiggrin:

[good_lookin_gus]

I believe good_looking_gus is talking about declaring Vaarsuvius Lawful Evil.

For my part, I see no problem with it, given that your assertion is in the present tense and the Unholy Blight strip was a very long time and many events ago. :smalltongue:

But V and Haley have been friends all along. The claim is that there needs to be an ulterior explaination for these characters to like each other because they have polar opposite alignments. Unless this assertion specifically concerns their very recent history (in which case, I will point you to their years of friendship and comradery), it necessarily implies that V has been LE throughout their relationship. We know that is not true.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I 'accuse' you of not reading my posts because the case has never relied on the pair having polar opposite alignments. You're insisting on putting words in my mouth when this is supposed to be a silly thread with a plausible (yet highly unlikely) theory about an issue that people refuse to let be.

The bit about alignments is an add-on that is not needed for the theory to work, but is merely an expression of a separate (but potentially relevant) speculation on my part. :smallsmile:

[rewinn]

Well, it actually makes sense to me, in some odd way. :smallbiggrin:

My personal opinion is that --

1. V started out as male.

2. Readers got confused about his gender because he has long hair and ours is still a largely short-haired society.

3. The Giant took the confusion and applied it to Belkar for comic effect.

4. It worked, so he extended the joke to include everyone else in the game world.

5. V is a homosexual male, whose husband, Inkyrius, just happens to be more in touch with his 'feminine' side and therefore tends to fall into more of a 'feminine' role (baking cookies and keeping the house neat).

6. There's no real mystery, it's all there to see, and Rich is just there laughing uproariously at all the theories and confusion what was originally pretty much a one-off gag caused. :smallsmile: And I don't blame him one bit, because the speculation is probably funnier at this point than the original joke itself .... :smallbiggrin:While that's a valid possibility, IMO the androgynous nature of many depictions of elves has been a long-time meme, predating OOTS, which The Giant may well have including on purpose at the time of initial party creation, just as he included a Sexy Spunky Girl and a Loyal Faithful Dwarf. Either way, V's gender and orientation are delightful sources of humor, let's just enjoy!

[good_lookin_gus]

I 'accuse' you of not reading my posts because the case has never relied on the pair having polar opposite alignments. You're insisting on putting words in my mouth when this is supposed to be a silly thread with a plausible (yet highly unlikely) theory about an issue that people refuse to let be.

The bit about alignments is an add-on that is not needed for the theory to work, but is merely an expression of a separate (but potentially relevant) speculation on my part. :smallsmile:

Get real; I didn't put any words in your mouth. Look at your original post:


the only one in the party more CG than her is Elan, and V's about as LE as it gets without trading in paladin levels (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DnD_InWorksApril_Blackguard.jpg) (if you know what I mean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKnowWhatIMean)).

If it's not important to your hypothesis, it shouldn't have been included. Imagine an automotive engineer premiering a new idea on how to design cars and suddenly declaring, "oh, by the way, Global Warming is/isn't caused by man, but anyhoo..." You made the statement; I have every right to contest it. As I already stated: You muddied your own waters, not me.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That's a great straw-man you have there, but it has little to do with me or the subject of this thread. The segment of post you bring up is naught but a contested view that served as the initial motivation behind the search that lead to the formation of the satirical theory as it currently stands. Even in the event that my stance on the alignments of the characters is wrong, the theory is not made any less valid.

If a person imbibes an excess of strong drink, it does not matter if they think its effects are communing with Dionysus or a simple chemical reaction, they are still drunk. My speculative view on the alignment of the characters is irrelevant to the mechanics of the actual theory, but you're aggressively throwing a wet blanket over the conversation by fixating on it and using it as the spearhead of a hostile chain of posts that callously undermines the lighthearted intent of the thread itself.

[good_lookin_gus]

That's a great straw-man you have there, but it has little to do with me or the subject of this thread.

Straw-man? I admit that arguments by analogies are often problematic, but that was hardly a straw-man.


The segment of post you bring up is naught but a contested view that served as the initial motivation behind the search that lead to the formation of the satirical theory as it currently stands. Even in the event that my stance on the alignments of the characters is wrong, the theory is not made any less valid.

I never said it was:

My contention was not with the Trapfinding Hypothesis, I even complimented you on it. However, during the buildup of said hypothesis, you made a tangental assertion that was false. You muddied your own waters, not me.


If a person imbibes an excess of strong drink, it does not matter if they think its effects are communing with Dionysus or a simple chemical reaction, they are still drunk. My speculative view on the alignment of the characters is irrelevant to the mechanics of the actual theory,

Yet you've included them anyways.


but you're aggressively throwing a wet blanket over the conversation by fixating on it and using it as the spearhead of a hostile chain of posts that callously undermines the lighthearted intent of the thread itself.

You've not seen aggression:smallamused: If I come off as hostile, it is because you've steadily accused me of not reading your posts, putting words in your mouth, and constructing straw-man arguments.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In order to end this senseless and tragic debate, might I present the mod-approved theory for Vaarsuvius' sexuality:
There are obviously 2 Varssuvius's, one male and one female, both of which are identical and switch out between panels using elven ninja skills.

[lio45]

In order to end this senseless and tragic debate, might I present the mod-approved theory for Vaarsuvius' sexuality:

There are obviously 2 Varssuvius's, one male and one female, both of which are identical and switch out between panels using elven ninja skills.

Actually, that theory's needlessly complicated - there's a much simpler one that happens to perfectly match all observations so far: a unique, ambiguously-gendered Vaarsuvius who isn't doing any switching out between panels and hasn't got an identical twin. ;)

[EmeraldPhoenix]

Yeah, I think everyone is tired of these threads, even the "lighthearted" ones. :smallsigh:


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/NamonakiRei/Facepalm.png

That is an awesome smiley. Can I use it?:smallbiggrin:

[ADZAELL]

Silverraptor: You know you were amused. :smallsmile:

Kaytara: Occam's Razor eh? Show me an equally valid theory with less moving parts and I'll post a pic of me eating my hat. :smalltongue: In any case, I'm glad that you were entertained. Such was the point of the OP. :smallbiggrin:


Ok, here you go:

Haley is such good friends with V, as they are both the only Female members of the party, and have bonded due to that.

Will you be eating your hat raw, or would you prefer to bake it first hehehe.