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dobu
2009-11-06, 04:39 AM
Hello fellow Playgrounders, today I need some ideas as a DM.

I've got a huge undead army, mostly low HD critters, attacking a city. The army is led by a mage circle.

What would be the best way for an undead army without siege engines to breach city walls and capture the city (and slaughter the inhabitants)?

Is it possible for the undead to just tear it down, brick-by-brick, if yes, how long would it take?

I'm in need for some ideas... :(

Oslecamo
2009-11-06, 04:58 AM
I sugest you using the mob template from DMG II to turn those litle zombies into a big massive threat.

More in particular, my improved version of the mob template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179), wich is more customizable and also is a threat to oponents at distance for a change, if you give your undeads javelins/bows.

To tear down the walls, you can either indeed tear it brick by brick by dealing damage with the mob up attack, or if the mob is big enough and the wall thin enough, you can just crush trough it, since you get a +4 bonus for size category bigger than medium. A colossal mob of around 100 undeads would be colossal sized with my custom rules and thus, even if with just base str 10, could breack trough a wall of stone of 7 inches, or an iron wall of 2 inches. Bigger strenght would allow to take down bigger walls (orc zombies, corpsecrafted zombies, heck the zombie template alone adds +2 str).

Then walk inside the city and slaughter everything that comes nearby!:smallbiggrin:

Emmerask
2009-11-06, 05:13 AM
Hello fellow Playgrounders, today I need some ideas as a DM.

I've got a huge undead army, mostly low HD critters, attacking a city. The army is led by a mage circle.

What would be the best way for an undead army without siege engines to breach city walls and capture the city (and slaughter the inhabitants)?

Is it possible for the undead to just tear it down, brick-by-brick, if yes, how long would it take?

I'm in need for some ideas... :(

can they have giant skeletons with hulking hurler class levels ? :smallbiggrin:

golentan
2009-11-06, 05:18 AM
Easiest: Spawn one shadow, send it over the walls at night. Put up some personal wards against later generations just in case the guard kills a couple. You're done (well, the city is).

Else? Ladders. Seriously, just put up a huge army and keep sending in siege ladders. Skeletons preferably (boiling oil won't do a whole lot to them, and they can safely ignore arrows).

Else? Depending on the level of the mages, Transmute Rock to Mud right before storming is effective. For greater nastiness: Stone to Flesh + Animate dead on the walls.

Else, take the time to build siege weapons.

Else? Look into the sewage system. Skeletons should be able to get in there fairly easy.

Else? If you have intelligent, large beings present you can give them "War Hulk" levels. They're basically walking siege weapons. Area of effect.

Always always always once a day (minimum, switch up the times) cast some animation on the besieged. It may not last long, but having the day's fallen rise up gives you a big boost with a matching external assault.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-06, 05:31 AM
Send them all at one section of the wall untill they form a ramp of bodies for the ones in back. send any that get over towards the closest gate.

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 05:35 AM
You must know the old saying...Dig for Victory! except don't dig to plant vegetables, get your army to dig under the walls. All day. Tirelessly. Every day. Without stop. If you have an army big enough, you could bring down the entire city wall at once within a few days.

That's how you crack a city with lots of low HD undead mooks.

Zen Master
2009-11-06, 06:22 AM
You must know the old saying...Dig for Victory! except don't dig to plant vegetables, get your army to dig under the walls. All day. Tirelessly. Every day. Without stop. If you have an army big enough, you could bring down the entire city wall at once within a few days.

That's how you crack a city with lots of low HD undead mooks.

I second this. The one main thing about undead is that they never tire. An army of zombies can outmarch hardened elite guardsmen, simply because they move 24 hours a day. Shambling isn't fast, but over time it beats running without contest.

AslanCross
2009-11-06, 06:50 AM
Any creatures large enough to throw rocks could do it. For more flavor, you could have Hooded Pupil (Libris Mortis template) Skullcrusher Ogres (MM3) working for whomever is leading the undead. It doesn't take much effort for creatures of ogre strength or higher to tear down a wall by throwing rocks.

Furthermore, why don't the mages do it themselves? It doesn't take much firepower to breach a gate with sonic spells.

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 07:11 AM
Any creatures large enough to throw rocks could do it. For more flavor, you could have Hooded Pupil (Libris Mortis template) Skullcrusher Ogres (MM3) working for whomever is leading the undead. It doesn't take much effort for creatures of ogre strength or higher to tear down a wall by throwing rocks.

Furthermore, why don't the mages do it themselves? It doesn't take much firepower to breach a gate with sonic spells.

The OP stipulated that his army was low HD undead. Larger undead (big enough to do significant damage chucking rocks) generally have high HD.

Whilst it doesn't take a lot of firepower to breach a gate, if you have an army of undead to tear down the wall for you, why waste the effort? Just breaching the gate will give the defenders a choke point to defend as well. Creating multiple entries with magic is going to take more than a couple of sonic spells. Also, the psychological "Oh ****!" effect of the entire wall collapsing at once, for the populace, is going to be huuuuuge...to have the same effect with spells would require a lot of magic.

boomwolf
2009-11-06, 07:21 AM
Well...how high is the wall?

A big enough skeleton army can CLIMB it, keeping the wall for itself for later defenses.

Basically, all you need is to get them to be good climbers, and send them all up at the same time, all over the walls, in a single massive neverending wave.

If the wall is less then 100 ft. high, enough skeletons will get up to start fighting the defenders, and by that point the others will have easy time climbing.

dobu
2009-11-06, 08:26 AM
thanks for all the ideas. :-)

just to give you an idea: this is a fight of approx. 30.000 undead vs. 5.000 defenders (not counting commoners and the sort, just the trained warriors, fighters etc etc)

with such a huge army why should the mages endanger themselves. that's the reason why I don't like the idea of them doing it themselves.

plans so far: I will use Terror Groups of Wraiths (no more than 10 or so), to strike fear in the heart of the inhabitants (I'll just let them glide into the city and drain some women, children, orphans, whatever...)

The Secret Weapon will be 2 controlled living Spells: A Combination of Blasphemy and Animate Dead. This should wreak havoc under the defenders, before they kill them.

I was thinking about getting some spellstitched undead with Animate dead. Just the picture of soldiers being pulled away by zombies, screaming, then appearing back in the ranks of the undead, gives me the creeps.

The low-HD Zombies/Skelettons will be organised with the Mob Template...

I will use the following map, the undead coming from the south-west (on the southern bank of the river).
http://www.forgottenadventures.com/FRMaps/Mirabar.JPG

I'm not sure, if they half-circle the city for the gate, or just head for the walls...
:-)

[edit] The city of mirabar is a mining city in the north. They are used to orc attacks, so they have a good militia and good city defences. the height of the walls: I think 40 ft. is reasonable? I'm not an expert in medieval architecture, so please correct me if I'm completely off ;)

Oslecamo
2009-11-06, 09:05 AM
The city of mirabar is a mining city in the north. They are used to orc attacks, so they have a good militia and good city defences. the height of the walls: I think 40 ft. is reasonable? I'm not an expert in medieval architecture, so please correct me if I'm completely off ;)

Height of a city wall really varied a lot. It depended on:

1-How much solid rock is available on the area. You need a lot of it to build bigger walls.
2-How many skilled workers you could get to build said wall. A high wall needs to be properly constructed.
3-The terrain itself. Good luck building a high wall on soft ground.

So it's basicaly up to what you think is ok as the DM. 40 feets sound good if there's solid ground and the city was willing to invest some gold in it's building and maintenance.

Also with a 6 to 1 advantage, you certainly want to go directly for the walls while circling and attacking the gate!

Very nice map there. If you did it yourself then you really spoil your players.

If possible, then say something on how my mob template turned out for you!

dobu
2009-11-06, 09:19 AM
No, unfortunately I'm not such a good artist to draw such a map, I found it while searching for some background for the city, when I started the campaign.

They got enough stone, this city is known for their quality of stone, and even sell them (transported magically) They constantly work on the city (improving and paving roads, fixing the wall, expanding it, etc.). There's a large dwarfen community in the city as well, so the know-how for stoneworking should be quite good.
Considering all this, I'll up it to 50 ft. (less on the river banks).

I just re-read the living spell template, and I found out, it doesn't work for targeted spells such as animate dead. :smallfrown:
I think I'll ignore this bit for those two animating blasphemies. I love the image of a black-ish cloud, blistering with negative energy, rolling over the defenders. :smalleek:

I will definitely use your mob template and leave some comment on how it turned out :smallsmile:

Cuaqchi
2009-11-06, 09:29 AM
You could always have the zombies swim/walk to the bridges and sewers to enter that way. A city of that size would have a reasonable waste control system but any water taken from the river would be contaminated for at least a short time. :smallyuk:

You then just need a means of animating the dead, disease ridden peasants and your numbers swell without resorting to combat since a zombie doesn't care whether it was a 17th level PC or a 1st level Commoner. :smallcool:

The other benefit to all of this is that even if you don't get any new minions from dead townsfolk, the clerics will be busy curing the disease rather than turning back the waves of walking death at the walls.

graymachine
2009-11-06, 09:45 AM
Do you want to actually hold the city or not?

If not, you don't even need to bother assaulting the city. Send your wraiths in under the cover of night and have them target the civilian population. Wraiths are spawning undead; some quick math there at the game table, taking averages, will show your wraiths annihilating the city within one night, maybe two. The key is to keep them away from clerics or other high level defenders, targeting the low-level commoners. Eventually there will be enough spawn that it doesn't matter what level any of the defenders are.

A point: As mentioned in another post, a medieval society can only support an army that is roughly 7% of the total population (they have to spend a ridiculous amount of manpower growing food.) Therefore, if there are 5000 defenders then there are roughly 51,500 people in the city. That's a lot of wraiths. Plus, all of the Negative Energy is bound to spawn something(s) much worse.

charl
2009-11-06, 09:45 AM
I was just thinking about getting across the river to the northern part of the city. Can skeletons walk along the riverbed? Would the stream be too strong and sweep them away? Otherwise, can you construct or acquire boats? Maybe you have some kind of magic that would allow you to bridge the river? The locals are bound to destroy the bridges once the threat becomes obvious. You should perhaps consider to try and blitz to them some way before the people can react.

Person_Man
2009-11-06, 09:47 AM
I've tried this at least half a dozen times over the last ten years with several iterations of the D&D rules, and I can tell you that in my personal experience D&D does a horrible job at mass combat. Heroes of Battle has some rules to help, but they're not very good. You might want to take a look at another rule set (Warhammer, Battleground, Battlemasters, etc) for mass combat, and then just switch to D&D for everything else.

Slightly off topic, do people know of a rule set that does a good job of handling mass combat, small combats, and Skills? I haven't found one yet, but it's been a while since I've been to a convention, and I don't read a lot of forums besides this one (because they're blocked by work).

jiriku
2009-11-06, 10:00 AM
The river entry is definitely the way to make your attack. Not only are the walls lower, but their are fewer towers defending the approach. Your undead can easily walk along the bottom of the river bank (have them carry heavy stones if they're light enough to be rushed away by the current). Use the wraith-spawning tactic mentioned above to pin the defenders down near the temple of Moradin in the northern section, then hit the West Gate. A handful of shadows attacking during the night should eliminate sentries at the gate, and if the attack is well-coordinated, you'll be pounding at the gates before anyone realizes that the attack on the castle is a diversion.

Also, have a second force of undead waiting at the bridges between the north and south section. When defenders from the southern part of the city come racing across those bridges, hit them there. You don't need to wipe them out, just stall them until you control the northern city.

Once you have the northern city, take its siege weaponry and turn it against the walls of the southern portion of the city. You'll tear down those walls in short order. Once that's done, simply lather, rinse, and repeat. Utilizing spawning undead such as shadows, wraiths, ghouls, and wights will greatly enhance your effectiveness, as your 6:1 advantage may swell to 10:1 or even 12:1 as you raise and animate the commoners. I actually recommend that over animate dead, as the intelligent undead are far more effective in a fight than skeletons and zombies (which are basically cannon fodder).

Telonius
2009-11-06, 10:07 AM
A few applications of Disintegrate should breach most walls. It obliterates a 10-foot cube per casting.

Passwall is another good option for lower-level wizards. It's not as permanent as Disintegrate, but hours/level should be plenty to get your army in and wreaking havoc if the defending side doesn't have very good magical support. Note that it is subject to Dispelling, which could prove embarrassing to any creatures left inside the city walls.

AslanCross
2009-11-06, 10:13 AM
The OP stipulated that his army was low HD undead. Larger undead (big enough to do significant damage chucking rocks) generally have high HD.

Whilst it doesn't take a lot of firepower to breach a gate, if you have an army of undead to tear down the wall for you, why waste the effort? Just breaching the gate will give the defenders a choke point to defend as well. Creating multiple entries with magic is going to take more than a couple of sonic spells. Also, the psychological "Oh ****!" effect of the entire wall collapsing at once, for the populace, is going to be huuuuuge...to have the same effect with spells would require a lot of magic.

Strictly speaking, the skullcrushers wouldn't be counted among the undead themselves. The Hooded Pupil template doesn't confer undeath. They'd be mooks working for the mages.

Now that the OP has stipulated his reasons, I don't have anything further to add other than that I'd use incorporeal creatures. Wraiths are only 5 HD; I'm not exactly sure what the definition of "low HD" is.

bosssmiley
2009-11-06, 10:19 AM
30,000 tireless, mindlessly obedient workers. Hmmm, can you say Avaricum siegeworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaricum) + tasteful bonework and screaming skulls decorative motif.

"Unlike you fleshies, my army does not tire, or suffer from infections, or from poor morale, or from boredom..."

ericgrau
2009-11-06, 10:20 AM
Hello fellow Playgrounders, today I need some ideas as a DM.

I've got a huge undead army, mostly low HD critters, attacking a city. The army is led by a mage circle.

What would be the best way for an undead army without siege engines to breach city walls and capture the city (and slaughter the inhabitants)?

Is it possible for the undead to just tear it down, brick-by-brick, if yes, how long would it take?

I'm in need for some ideas... :(

Why not have the mages bring siege engines? Ballistas and catapults only need a handful of living controllers. Siege towers are a more manpower intensive option though. A ram could conceivable be manned by controleld zombies. See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines

As for tearing it down brick-by-brick, the wall has a high hardness and HP. Damaging it at all would take some undead that do a lot of damage. Otherwise no matter how long they spend they won't do any damage to it at all. A typical city wall has hardness 8, AC 3 and each 10 foot section has 450 HP for a small city or 720 HP for a large city. Scroll up to the section above siege engines for more information.

A piece of siege equipment should take 7.5 minutes (75 rounds) to breach a section of small city wall or 12 minutes for a large city wall. A heavy catapult or ram with creatures with 12 or more strength could cut this time in half.

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 10:22 AM
As for tearing it down brick-by-brick, the wall has a high hardness and HP. Damaging it at all would take some undead that do a lot of damage. Otherwise no matter how long they spend they won't do any damage to it at all. A typical city wall has hardness 8, AC 3 and each 10 foot section has 450 HP for a small city or 720 HP for a large city. Scroll up to the section above siege engines for more information.

That's why you don't even touch the wall...you just dig out the support from underneath it and shout "TIMMMMMMBEEEEEERRRRRR!" as you watch it fall over

dobu
2009-11-06, 10:23 AM
low HD is 1-3 HD for me :smallsmile:

the wraiths are the bigger ones, that's the reason why there are so few of them ( ~10)

ericgrau
2009-11-06, 10:28 AM
That's why you don't even touch the wall...you just dig out the support from underneath it and shout "TIMMMMMMBEEEEEERRRRRR!" as you watch it fall over

Something tells me a wall surrounding a city on 4 sides doesn't work that way. And this seems like it would take significantly longer than 12 minutes anyway. I just noticed that human zombies have a strength of 12, so batterying rams and heavy catapults to cut the above mentioned times in half (maybe less) seems best.

Keshay
2009-11-06, 10:37 AM
How to breach city walls with an undead army? Same way as any other army: Umber Hulks and Rust Monsters. If its really important for it to be undead, then make them into Zombie Umber Hulks and Zombie Rust Monsters that somehow retained thier special abilities.

Even if the army is mostly low HD, having just 3-4 Umber Hulks in there will make enough of a wall fall in 3-4 rounds for the undead masses to flood through.

Rust Monsters speak for themselves, something able to destroy 245 tons of iron every round is a pretty good thing to use as a seige engine.

deuxhero
2009-11-06, 11:11 AM
Do you know explosive ruins? Make a few bags of them, throw them next to the walls, use dispel magic and purposefully fail.

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 11:55 AM
Something tells me a wall surrounding a city on 4 sides doesn't work that way.

No, you're right, it wouldn't. Some sections would simply collapse into the tunnels beneath them. Others would stay largely upright, supported by the rubble of the sections adjacent to them. If the wall has towers, then sections near them might be more sturdy (after all, the foundations of a tower are going to be more sturdy than those of the wall itself). Some bits would fall over as I describe. However, the overall effect is a large scale destruction of the wall without even having to touch it. The trick to demolition is not to overcome the strengths of the subject, but to work around them; find the weakness. In the case of a strong wall, the weakest point is the ground upon which it stands. Remove that and the wall has no strength at all.

Yes it would take a longer time than it would to traditionally siege the city with towers and battering rams, but it's also tremendously cool to be able to do it. An undead army could theoretically besiege the city without the city even knowing they were there...tunneling in from miles away, the citizenry wouldn't know what was happening until their city wall came crashing down and the living dead started emerging from the rubble...

lsfreak
2009-11-06, 12:23 PM
The disintegrate idea is a good one. If they can cast it, they can cast it from at least 1250 feet away (with horizon goggles, MIC).

If you've got some intelligent undead, get a way to use Stone Dragon maneuvers from Tome of Battle (either the low-level items or giving ghouls a single class level or something). They get to ignore any hardness from the halls.

According to Heroes of Battle, a self-loading heavy trebuchet does 14d6 damage very other round for the cost of 27,000 (+1 enhancement bonus and +2 enhancement). For giggles, another 3000 added on will make every projectile cast a 10-round version of animate dead within 60 feet (max 20HD). [Note that the trebuchet can't move by itself and weights in at 20.000 pounds].

golentan
2009-11-06, 03:29 PM
Not wraiths, shadows. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)

Definitely low HD. Spawn, incorporeal, and ridiculously fast generation time.

Also, their damage doesn't allow a save.

I'm going to side with tunneling here. I'd say walk them across the river (use weights if you have to, but shouldn't be an issue) and dig in the little lowland area there. Also, keep hitting from all sides continuously, with that much numerical superiority you can force conflicts until the guards drop dead from exhaustion.

RS14
2009-11-06, 03:41 PM
If you want a good display of numbers and force, build a ramp up over the walls under the cover of a tortoise. You've got the raw manpower, and once constructed, there is not much they can do about it. It's the same principle as mining the walls, but more visible.

Oslecamo
2009-11-06, 04:27 PM
Yes it would take a longer time than it would to traditionally siege the city with towers and battering rams, but it's also tremendously cool to be able to do it. An undead army could theoretically besiege the city without the city even knowing they were there...tunneling in from miles away, the citizenry wouldn't know what was happening until their city wall came crashing down and the living dead started emerging from the rubble...

Actualy, I believe we're all overcomplicating this.

Undeads don't need to eat. Living people need. If you're willing to build such a tunnel, it would probably be easier to just siege the city and starve them to dead.

If they have enough wizards and clerics to feed the whole city with magic, then they're probably casting divinations all wekk long to prevent such tricks.

Also, mind you, building a tunnel several miles long whitout it colapsing over itself or the undeads ending up in the wrong place it's no easy task. You would need some good engineers to pull it out.

Leewei
2009-11-06, 05:11 PM
Zombie Dire Badgers!

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 05:13 PM
Also, mind you, building a tunnel several miles long whitout it colapsing over itself or the undeads ending up in the wrong place it's no easy task. You would need some good engineers to pull it out.

Building a tunnel several miles long with undead is actually easier with mindless undead than it is with a team of skilled engineers. For a start, they won't deviate. There is simply no human error in that regard. Point them in the right direction to start with (easily done with access to divination magic) and they will make a perfectly straight tunnel because they were told to tunnel in one direction and that's the only diretion they'll tunnel in.

Secondly, the collapse of the tunnel is not so much of an issue for undead as it is for living creatures. An undead tunneling team need only keep the area they currently occupy intact. Anything behind them can collapse without them worrying about it. They need no air, food or water, so maintaining the whole tunnel is simply not neccesary. They can even use the structural supports over and over, removing and intenionally collapsing the tunnel behind them. Before you mention it, yes, they will need somewhere to stash the waste, but consider that they can compress it behind them as they go before removing the supports. You'd effectively have a lozenge of space travelling underground in a dead straight (no pun intended) line toward their goal.

The only thing you'd have down there apart from the mindless contingent, ideally, is an intelligent undead with a degree of mining expertise in case of a problem. Preferably a spellcaster with relevant diviniations to ensure they don't devitate.

golentan
2009-11-06, 05:18 PM
Also, mind you, building a tunnel several miles long whitout it colapsing over itself or the undeads ending up in the wrong place it's no easy task. You would need some good engineers to pull it out.

Do we care? Say we expend 5000 undead, writing them off as "will be crushed." We still have a numerical advantage of 5-1 and are now past any fortifications, and as soon as we win we bolster our numbers by as many as we can animate. Doing this will not harm the army's moral in the slightest.

As long as the circle remains intact at the end of the battle, the army does too for the next engagement.

I still favor a shadow rush (kekekekeke). But without employing siege engines a tunnel is a great option, and undead could dig it ridiculously quickly. Especially having seized the lowlands, where the docks appear to be, you've also cut off their food supply.

Oslecamo
2009-11-06, 05:54 PM
Building a tunnel several miles long with undead is actually easier with mindless undead than it is with a team of skilled engineers. For a start, they won't deviate. There is simply no human error in that regard. Point them in the right direction to start with (easily done with access to divination magic) and they will make a perfectly straight tunnel because they were told to tunnel in one direction and that's the only diretion they'll tunnel in.

...

The only thing you'd have down there apart from the mindless contingent, ideally, is an intelligent undead with a degree of mining expertise in case of a problem. Preferably a spellcaster with relevant diviniations to ensure they don't devitate.

You simply don't build a tunnel trough several miles whitout anything going wrong.

First, the terrain isn't even. Harder rocks, underground water, loose soil can all mean the undeads get crushed by a cave in.

This is mindless undeads we're talking about. They can execute only simple comands. Dig in a straight line, ok, but carefully positioning and removing suports? Not so much. If the tunnel starts caving around them, will they really react to it, or will let the debris fall over them and be buried for eternity?

Sure you can add an intelegent undead taskmaster, but how many smart undeads would acept the task. Would an undead wizard risk a sudden cave in where he gets completely imobilized (and thus unable to cast spells) untill somebody unburies him years from now?

Even with the numerical advantage, you run a big risk of you ending losing a LOT of troops for litle if any benefit. Even if the walls cave in(they won't, there'll be plenty of rubble left for the defenders to fall back and build barricades). Simply rushing the walls would be more effecient.

Just cast teleport to carry in your elite undeads under the city perimeter.

Johel
2009-11-06, 06:13 PM
Lot's of tunnels
Pros :
You got the perfect workforce for that job.
While digging 24 hours would require between 3 and 6 humans to relay each other, 1 single undead can do the same.
Start a good twenty tunnels or so, it still won't take more than a few hundred undeads. Send a thousand undeads cut trees for the wood.
Cons :
It will take time. It doesn't matter how many undeads you commit to the task, there's only so much that can be digged out of a 10-feet tunnel in a single day.

Starve 'hem all !!
Pros :
No losses, just wait for it.
Cons :
In a world where magic means easy communication, expect a relief force to already be on its way. A wizard can cast Teleport to warn neighboring kingdoms. Or even simply Fly+Invisibility to get past the city and your army, then Mount for a few days ride.
Also, Create Food and Water is your worst enemy. Granted, many people will starve but as long as the garrison is fed, you're boned.

Disintegrate
Pros :
40 feet high walls means nothing if they aren't thick enough. And few walls are more 10 feet thick. So, 1 Disintegrate = 1 breach. Also, the gates aren't 10-feet thick, that's a token.
Cons :
That's still a pretty small hole. Without shocktroops, attacking a bottleneck is as suicidal as charging with ladders, only the enemy can focus its defense on a single point. Also, your casters have to take risk.

Attack from the river.
Pros :
Maybe they won't see it coming. Surprise is always a good thing. Also, it doubles the frontline, which means your numerical superiority is in full effect : 5.000 warriors, spread over the whole walls. Have 25.000 undeads spread equally along the lines and attack. Then charge a single spot with 5.000 undeads.
Cons :
Walls everywhere, so you don't get much from that attack itself. Also, the stream might take some undeads.

Siege engines
Pros :
Workforce is ready for the "collect the wood" part.
Cons :
Workforce is lacking for the "build the engines" part.
Also, time.

Shadow/Wraith Commandos
Pros :
You can simply ignore the defenses.
Cons :
Keeping control of those ones might become a problem if you lose the Alpha Shadow/Wraith.

Ladders
Pros :
You got the number...but that's all.
Cons :
It's pure suicide and waste : even at 6 against 1, you'll basically just waste half of your army to get a beach head into the city. Seriously, there are better ways.

My guess :
Try a bit of all.

Start digging tunnels and build siege engines and ladders, in plain sight of the enemy. They'll send somebody ask for help, thinking they got weeks before the assault. This means that once you're done with that city, another army will be marching in the open, ready to be slaughtered.
Deploy discretely troops on the riverbed. They must be ready to swarm the main gate of the haven. Gate that you will Disintegrate, because THAT'S not 10-feet thick, you can be sure !! But that's for later...
At night, launch your shadows/wraiths on the city, with the strict order to each kill just ONE single person before retreating. The new shadows ? They are left on their own, in a city full of tasty humans. That will keep the garrison busy. And as the Alpha Shadows will be alive, you're sure to still control some of the pack indirectly.
After a few days, spread your visible troops wide, in order of battle, barely out of range of the enemy's weapons. Don't attack yet : the main assault won't happen here. It's just to force the enemy to spread thin...
Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell. Cast it, then join the underwater army, still waiting. Command it to charge through the gate...and blast the gate. Panic follows, as 1/6 of your army enter the city while the garrison was expecting an all-out assault... which happens 10 minutes later, when enemy forces have been recalled to repel the underwater army. 5/6 of your army charge on the whole length of the wall.
In the confusion, send the shadows/wraiths "en masse", one spot at a time, to support whatever resistance there is.

ericgrau
2009-11-06, 07:12 PM
Uh just hire someone else to make the siege stuff and buy it from them for the listed price. Or enslave a few such people. After all if you got a thousand onyxes for undead you can probably get other things too. Then you hit walls, walls break in a few minutes. I think we're over complicating things here with these plans that take days and days and a lot of risk or difficulty to pull off.

Fendalus
2009-11-06, 07:16 PM
But then you miss the opportunity for a completely awesome method of attack...

Volkov
2009-11-06, 07:23 PM
Have the mages summon up some Goritsos to break down that sucker. Goritsos do extra damage to objects and ignore hardness I believe.

Coidzor
2009-11-06, 07:29 PM
Will Magma Mephits work to melt the gates/walls?

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 08:31 PM
First, the terrain isn't even. Harder rocks, underground water, loose soil can all mean the undeads get crushed by a cave in.

These are all irrelevant to a mindless undead. They are instructed to tunnel in a straight line. Whether that is through rock, soil, water or whatever, they will keep going without thought of what it is they're tunneling through.


This is mindless undeads we're talking about. They can execute only simple comands. Dig in a straight line, ok, but carefully positioning and removing suports? Not so much. If the tunnel starts caving around them, will they really react to it, or will let the debris fall over them and be buried for eternity?

Yes, the fact that they're mindless is what makes them perfect for this job. A team of four is wielding pick-axes and forging forward. A different team is shifting rubble and soil to the rear. Another team is compacting the loose stuff. Another team is positioning supports. You have 30,000 troops to play with and no logistic to consider. Your options are practically unlimited.


Sure you can add an intelegent undead taskmaster, but how many smart undeads would acept the task. Would an undead wizard risk a sudden cave in where he gets completely imobilized (and thus unable to cast spells) untill somebody unburies him years from now?

Your intelligent undead taskmaster doesn't have a choice. He's either rebuked by a Cleric friendly to your cause or a controlled Awakened undead. Either way he will do your bidding without question because he cannot do otherwise. If you tell him to jump off a cliff onto spike of doom and a sea of acid he would do it. Being taskmaster of a tunnelling team is small fry compared to what you could tell him to do.


Even with the numerical advantage, you run a big risk of you ending losing a LOT of troops for litle if any benefit. Even if the walls cave in(they won't, there'll be plenty of rubble left for the defenders to fall back and build barricades). Simply rushing the walls would be more effecient.

Just cast teleport to carry in your elite undeads under the city perimeter.

Yes you stand to lose a lot of troops, but they're undead mooks. If you're that concerned about them the Revive Undead spell will bring them back. The city you're attacking will provide plentiful replacements and there are more efficient ways to raise large numbers of undead than simply using the Animate Dead spell. A single 2nd level Pale Master can raise an army for free given enough time. Spell-Stiched undead with sufficient Wisdom can cast Animate Dead as an SLA with no material component cost as well. If you're high enough level then you can raise a veritable army of undead with a single spell.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-06, 08:40 PM
These are all irrelevant to a mindless undead. They are instructed to tunnel in a straight line. Whether that is through rock, soil, water or whatever, they will keep going without thought of what it is they're tunneling through.
The point at hand is that if rock is encountered, the mindless undead will endlessly flail against the obstacle and waste a good deal of time.

Wereling
2009-11-06, 08:44 PM
Zombie Dire Badgers!
Dire Badgers are actually stated as leaving a useable tunnel behind. I was going to suggest summoned ones, but that could actually work.

JellyPooga
2009-11-06, 08:47 PM
The point at hand is that if rock is encountered, the mindless undead will endlessly flail against the obstacle and waste a good deal of time.

The real point is "who cares?". Yes they may take a little longer, even a lot longer, but at the end of the day at least they'll keep going where a living tunnel team would give up and suggest an alternative course.

Volkov
2009-11-06, 08:55 PM
As I said, summon goritsos, The Tanar'ri bred them solely for the purpose of siege warfare. Or better yet, Open a gate to Russia, stash lots of vodka behind the enemies walls. And we'll come running through and explode the **** out of that wall to get that vodka. :smallbiggrin:

Wereling
2009-11-06, 09:01 PM
As I said, summon goritsos, The Tanar'ri bred them solely for the purpose of siege warfare. Or better yet, Open a gate to Russia, stash lots of vodka behind the enemies walls. And we'll come running through and explode the **** out of that wall to get that vodka. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think even the undead want Bear Cavalry on the field. Especially with vodka around :smallwink:

cbdb
2009-11-06, 10:05 PM
Honestly, with such superiority of numbers, I think the awesomest solution is a ramp build of corpses.

Volkov
2009-11-06, 10:07 PM
Honestly, with such superiority of numbers, I think the awesomest solution is a ramp build of corpses.

Hey the starship trooper bugs tried that exact tactic. And it was bloody awesome. As did Morgoth's orcs in the Silmarillion.