What would be the military tactics in a high magic world?

[deuxhero]

"Reasonable Marines" preferred to Hollywood Tactics.

In this case high magic=base level 3, average level 5, mostly specialist caster class.


Normal tactics of any age doesn't really strike me as a smart idea in a magic setting. A single (otherwise bad) AoE spell pretty much destroys any army found in typical medieval europe land.

[Tavar]

Complete Warrior had a decent section on this: effectively what you get is something similar to modern warfare, in that formations are less important/great targets, and there's alot of mobility and information gathering techniques.

[Fax Celestis]

Specialist evokers equipped with Lesser Metamagic Rods of Enlarge (or perhaps Arcane Thesis from Evoker School) cast fireball/scintillating sphere/other AoE spell with Range: Long and blast incoming armies from parapets.

Infiltrators and black ops guys have panic buttons (CScn) or single-use items of invisibility (swift or otherwise) and dimension door, or take levels in Swordsage and grab Shadow Hand maneuvers.


Complete Warrior had a decent section on this: effectively what you get is something similar to modern warfare, in that formations are less important/great targets, and there's alot of mobility and information gathering techniques.

Heroes of Battle has a pretty good depiction too.

[Nero24200]

It would really depend on your setting. If magic/PC class levels are common, then it would be radically different from a world were magic/PC class levels are rare.

I think that in the case of high magic, it's likely that there might not be "armies" as such, but more like a small group of high level characters with class levels (since they'd be pretty much more powerful than an army anyway).

[Saph]

Heroes of Battle has a pretty good depiction too.

Yeah, theirs was the best, I thought. Basically, cover and concealment are king - everyone stays out of sight whenever possible. Stealth and perception skills are mandatory. A trained grunt would look more like a Ranger than a Fighter, staying hidden and sniping when they get the chance.

No-one marches out in the open in units, ever, because it's like putting up a sign saying "AoE Target Here".

[Asbestos]

It would really depend on your setting. If magic/PC class levels are common, then it would be radically different from a world were magic/PC class levels are rare.

I think that in the case of high magic, it's likely that there might not be "armies" as such, but more like a small group of high level characters with class levels (since they'd be pretty much more powerful than an army anyway).

Unless some Wizard is breeding Ikea Tarrasques or mutating That Damn Crab into something that the majority of the world's population can't deal with.

I figure that there would still be a need for armies, but there'd also be clandestine stuff on the side. I mean, we have nukes and satellites and smart bombs and what not, but we still have a good amount of ground pounding soldiers.

I like Wraith Recon's takes on it. The world is High Magic and there's crazy black ops stuff, but your high magic guys can't take everyone on at once especially when some of the baddies also have high magic at their disposal. So while the Wizards are involved with their little chess games on one border, someone still has to deal with the invading Ogres and Orcs on the other border.

[Bayar]

Every good soldier has ranks in UMD. Even if it is corss class.

The need for reliable weapons lead to development of easier to use wands, Eternal Wands, Magic Schemas. Personal cloaking devices, mobile anti-scrying units, carpet bombing tactics soon followed.

The wars of tomorrow might be different. Soldier's lives will be less in danger as arcanists start using unmanned effigies to do the battle for them.

[Oslecamo]

The wars of tomorrow might be different. Soldier's lives will be less in danger as arcanists start using unmanned effigies to do the battle for them.

Since when do arcanists care about other's lifes?:smalltongue:

[Foryn Gilnith]

When they're being pressured by a lord to do so?

[Asbestos]

The wars of tomorrow might be different. Soldier's lives will be less in danger as arcanists start using unmanned effigies to do the battle for them.

The problem is, this only really works out if both sides in a conflict have equal access to magical resources or an equally strong 'magical economy'. If both sides do, then I would imagine you'd get a Cold War situation with the battles being waged in various 'proxy wars' between one of the more powerful nations and a lesser (supported by the other nation) or between two lesser nations supported by opposing sides. If there is only one nation controlling the majority of the world's magical economy then its conceivable that yes, they will have armies of constructs waging war against regular living soldiers (in which case soldiers are dying, just not ones on your side). At that point the global popularity of the high-magic nation comes into play. While a war or two with a lesser enemy will barely tax the magical nation, a war on every single front might pose a serious problem (or devastate the world at large).

[Eldan]

And how is the lord going to pressure them? I mean, any caster with a high enough level to use effigies and cloaking devices is already past political power.

[Wings of Peace]

I would expect mages to become their own ruling branch of the military. A high enough level wizard trained to intelligently abuse magic in my opinion wouldn't have a use for an army beyond "Summoning would take to long. Send some troops over here to do what I need".

I can see programming and magic interacting in interesting ways. Chiefly that I think languages similar to scripting or more complex programming languages could be used to create much more complex spells or spell systems that achieve a great deal of functions very quickly such as scrying systems. Hell a Weird Radar alone could have immense military use.

I would also expect most nations (Or at least those with an appreciation for scrying) to spend a great deal of resources keeping their magic uses secret in order to prevent other countries magic users from being able to discover and eliminate them.

[Asbestos]

When they're being pressured by a lord to do so?

Exactly how does a lord exert any sort pressure on high-level arcanists? The only way you're going to get high-level arcanists to fight for you is if they share a similar ideology or you yourself are an even more powerful arcanist.

[Fax Celestis]

And how is the lord going to pressure them? I mean, any caster with a high enough level to use effigies and cloaking devices is already past political power.

Money talks.

"You mean to say, I could sit here and make golems as much as I want, and you'll not only fund my crafting, but also pay me to do so? Done and done."

[Wings of Peace]

Money talks.

"You mean to say, I could sit here and make golems as much as I want, and you'll not only fund my crafting, but also pay me to do so? Done and done."

You are assuming the Wizard has not already discovered the number of ways that exist for him to break the economy.

[Elves-as-People]

A big issue to consider is SAINTs (Specialist Arcanist Infiltration and Neutralization Teams) would make serious bank as the new military elite. Consider the emerging importance of wizard killers, and the lengths governments would go to to train and equip them.

EDIT: This is how I've always imagined the "Last War" in the Eberron setting would have looked behind the scenes.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You are assuming the Wizard has not already discovered the number of ways that exist for him to break the economy.

If we're taking this "realistically", the economy would reshape around the arcanists (or, more likely, bend rather than break) and create something fairly distant from stereotypical D&D.

[Volkov]

UndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUn deadConstructsUndeadUndeadConstructsUndeadConstruc tsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructs andmoreUndeadandConstructs.

I suspect that the undead and constructs would become extremely common on battlefields, perhaps replacing armies of flesh and blood, well still living flesh and blood any way, altogether.

[Fax Celestis]

You are assuming the Wizard has not already discovered the number of ways that exist for him to break the economy.

For any game to be worth playing, "things making sense" is key. Therefore, either the global economy is saturated with products that wizards could make to gain finances; or those spells do not function in a fashion in which a wizard could single-handedly collapse the global economy. Your pick. In the former instance, it's happened already anyway: someone else thought of it. So, no economy crashing for you.

[jmbrown]

Wizards are still rare in traditional D&D setting. Character's with PC classes and levels past 3 aren't the majority. Maybe a great kingdom could muster a couple of dozen full fledged wizards but that's not going to change the battlefield much. Maybe a powerful wizard can teleport a handful of specialists inside a key location or scry on the enemy but the biggest downfall of magic is the daily limit.

[Asbestos]

UndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUn deadConstructsUndeadUndeadConstructsUndeadConstruc tsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructs andmoreUndeadandConstructs.

I suspect that the undead and constructs would become extremely common on battlefields, perhaps replacing armies of flesh and blood, well still living flesh and blood any way, altogether.

Problem is that they both require resources. Oddly the living humanoids that most undead seem to be made from would likely me the more limited resource since literally infinite sources of raw materials are only a spell or two away.

[Thane of Fife]

Exactly how does a lord exert any sort pressure on high-level arcanists? The only way you're going to get high-level arcanists to fight for you is if they share a similar ideology or you yourself are an even more powerful arcanist.

Why wouldn't lords be high-level arcanists? The entire basis of the feudal system is "I'll protect you if you accept my rule."

If I can't protect you, than there's no reason for you to listen to me.

[Volkov]

Problem is that they both require resources. Oddly the living humanoids that most undead seem to be made from would likely me the more limited resource since literally infinite sources of raw materials are only a spell or two away.

In our world, we have at the very least, over 10-20 billion homo sapiens sapiens corpses in usable condition. 20 billion skeletons is an army that no one wants to be on the receiving end of. Now granted, at best only 20 billion corpses out of 400 or so billion actually managed to be preserved.

[Asbestos]

Wizards are still rare in traditional D&D setting. Character's with PC classes and levels past 3 aren't the majority. Maybe a great kingdom could muster a couple of dozen full fledged wizards but that's not going to change the battlefield much. Maybe a powerful wizard can teleport a handful of specialists inside a key location or scry on the enemy but the biggest downfall of magic is the daily limit.

So you end up with what I will term the "Killbot Solution" (a la Futurama) where your battleplan revolves around sacrificing resources (soldiers) until you're opponent reaches their 'limit' and their magical resources are used up. At that point you obliterate them with your own magical reserves.

Where does the Wight Apocalypse come up?

[jmbrown]

In our world, we have at the very least, over 10-20 billion homo sapiens sapiens corpses in usable condition. 20 billion skeletons is an army that no one wants to be on the receiving end of. Now granted, at best only 20 billion corpses out of 400 or so billion actually managed to be preserved.

Assuming a cleric casts animate dead at the earliest level possible (level 5) he can control 10 undead. A nation would need 2,000,000,000 clerics to control that many skeletons. If ONE nation can muster that many 5th level clerics, surely another nation can muster the exact number to turn/rebuke/command/destroy them.


UndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUn deadConstructsUndeadUndeadConstructsUndeadConstruc tsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructsUndeadConstructs andmoreUndeadandConstructs.

XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST

[Fax Celestis]

Assuming a cleric casts animate dead at the earliest level possible (level 5) he can control 10 undead. A nation would need 2,000,000,000 clerics to control that many skeletons. If ONE nation can muster that many 5th level clerics, surely another nation can muster the exact number to turn/rebuke/command/destroy them.

Four words: Shield Golems With Attendants.

[Asbestos]

Assuming a cleric casts animate dead at the earliest level possible (level 5) he can control 10 undead. A nation would need 2,000,000,000 clerics to control that many skeletons. If ONE nation can muster that many 5th level clerics, surely another nation can muster the exact number to turn/rebuke/command/destroy them.

Plus the D&D world has scavengers like Oozes and the various corpse devouring undead, I'm not sure a real-world equivalent exists to compare with these things in terms of efficiency.

[Volkov]

Assuming a cleric casts animate dead at the earliest level possible (level 5) he can control 10 undead. A nation would need 2,000,000,000 clerics to control that many skeletons. If ONE nation can muster that many 5th level clerics, surely another nation can muster the exact number to turn/rebuke/command/destroy them.



XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST XPCOST

Or they could have one epic level cleric use epic magic shenanigans animate and control them all. Or better yet, make them into some enormous 20,000,000,000 hit dice undead monstrosity of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[Wings of Peace]

Does this mean the new atom bomb is the first mage to be able to successfully persist multiple castings of AFTS?

[Asbestos]

Or they could have one epic level cleric use epic magic shenanigans animate and control them all. Or better yet, make them into some enormous 20,000,000,000 hit dice undead monstrosity of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Flesh Colossus

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44174_C5_FleshColossus.jpg

I ran a campaign where some crazy, egomaniac Necromancer with a desire for a world re-born in perfect undeath was siphoning power from a aeons trapped Atropal to spread a zombie plague to collect corpses to build these things. Those corpses were a 'necessary sacrifice' in order to convert the remaining living into intelligent undead (whether they wanted to be or not). Great BBEG with a great, almost sympathetic, personality. Wish I could say she was purely of my own creation.

[Mystic Muse]

"blow them all to the nine hells with Fireballs and let the gods sort it out."

[Dimers]

The Black Company books by Glen Cook touch on this sporadically in interesting ways. The world is actually a low-magic/high-magic split, with a few arcane near-gods and tons of mooks but not much in between. Though the storyline follows a mundane mercenary company with just a couple low-level wizards, the books include all sorts of tactical situations that include the demigods. The series makes a great read for its own sake, but if you want to see high-magic responses to AMF, mundane attack strategy against master sorcerers, tricks that make masterful use of low magic, mooks' interactions with otherworldly monsters, and the outcome of a fireball-wand factory, it's got all that and more.

[jmbrown]

Four words: Shield Golems With Attendants.

Four... sentences?


CL 15th; caster must be at least 15th level; Price 120,000 gp; Cost 65,000 gp + 4,600 XP.

Does anyone remember the details from the Drizzt books? I know I'm far off, but I doesn't the wizard school in Menzobarrenzan only hold like 100 apprentices at any one time and their learning period is something like 20 or 30 years? Only something like half of the students actually survive their masters (note how I said survive, not pass).

Every source book that adds fluff to wizarding schools always mentions their small staff and the ridiculous drop out rates. I can't imagine, even in a high magic world, that fully fledged battle ready wizards in any one given area reach the triple digits.

[Fax Celestis]

Four... sentences?

Your cost is correct, but you're forgetting that shield golems obey whoever wears their controller amulet. So you really only need a couple crafters.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Does anyone remember the details from the Drizzt books? I know I'm far off, but I doesn't the wizard school in Menzobarrenzan only hold like 100 apprentices at any one time and their learning period is something like 20 or 30 years? Only something like half of the students actually survive their masters (note how I said survive, not pass).

Because elves are retarded and spend a century in puberty, and Drow culture is mentally retarded and extremely self-destructive.

[Volkov]

Does this mean the new atom bomb is the first mage to be able to successfully persist multiple castings of AFTS?

Warning Wall of text Approaching.

No, it will be "Summon large asteroid." which would cause a 25 kilometer chunk of space-rock smash into the world at 100 km/s thus in all likelyhood, turn the entire enemy nation into a huge crater full of molten lava, while his allies are pummeled by the rain of debris that would ignite all of his crops and shatter his structures, while the most ungodly powerful earthquake ever destroys even more of those structures, and creates massive tsunamis that wipe out any potential enemies on different continents. While all the seismic shockwaves of the impact would concentrate on the opposite end of the presumably round planet, and create a massive flood basalt eruption that would probably turn the lithosphere at a continent the size of eruasia upside down. Creating a tremendous flood basalt eruption that kills all of them too. Initially dust from the impact and the eruption will blot out the sun, causing world temperatures to drop and essentially all non-magically grown crops to fail, creating starvation en masse as well as wiping out a huge chunk of the planet's fauna and much of it's flora. The CO2 from the eruption will cause temperatures to rise in the long term, and as temperatures rise, the ocean will melt methane hydrate ice, releasing huge amounts of methane to cause more global warming, and as the methane reacts with the atmospheric oxygen it will catastrophically reduce oxygen levels, hurting mammals the most. The Reduced oxygen levels will allow anaerobic bacteria to pump out hydrogen sulfide, which will kill a huge amount of the fish. Meanwhile the increased global temperatures and the magma from the eruption and melt-pool would boil huge amounts of water and create immense storms.



Hopefully you will be protected in a barrier, awaiting for the dust to settle. Sure you'll inherit a largely desert planet where almost all life has died, but now your the only nation left.

[Asbestos]

It depends on what level that spell would be and whether or not a lower level/lower cost counter to it exists. Say if any 17th level LE casters have existed in the past... I only need 8400gp to end existence.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

A wise tactician would protect their own lands/troops with permanent anti-magic fields cast on MANY divine, minor artifacts. If a caster is ever dumb enough to disjunction the spell, they run the risk of earning a double whammy of doom in the form of the loss of spell casting ability AND gaining the ire of a deity. Furthermore, high level arcanists would be treated like nukes. Either kept as a threat against other nations as the risk of mutual destruction would keep all but the insane at bay and those who are NOT tied to a nation would be treated as potential threats to all nations, and probably find themselves curb stomped by a collective composed of local nation casters and mage killers.

[Volkov]

It depends on what level that spell would be and whether or not a lower level/lower cost counter to it exists. Say if any 17th level LE casters have existed in the past... I only need 8400gp to end existence.

How hard would it be to develop an epic spell to push an 25 kilometer in diameter asteroid at 100 kilometers per second at a planet?

[Triaxx]

When the magic is this high, and there are standing armies at play, I usually have shielding spells, which work as mass spell resistance.

Mage Shielding
[Abjuration]
Level: S/W 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 5'/level
Target: Self
Duration: Special
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Special

Mage Shielding is the first spell learned by many mages, often used in duels to protect against an enemy mages arsenal of magical tricks. Lesser wizards must concentrate to maintain the shield, being able to do so for 1 round after their concentration has failed. Once the user has reached level 5, the spell duration increases by 1 round per caster level after their concentration has failed.

The effects of the shield on others lasts for the length of concentration only however, leaving them unprotected as soon as the wizard looses concentration.

For each level of the wizard casting the spell until the 5th, the spell provides all in it's sphere of influence Spell Resistance equal to the caster level of the user. Every five levels the protection increases by 1 per caster level.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Normal tactics of any age doesn't really strike me as a smart idea in a magic setting. A single (otherwise bad) AoE spell pretty much destroys any army found in typical medieval europe land.

Except it doesn't.

Consider how fireball and solid fog are 40 ft across. Or to put another way around 13 yards, yay first down but that's fairly small compared to a football stadium as a whole. And real battles can occur over a scale of miles. Sure you can disable a dozen enemies in seconds, but armies mean hundreds when not thousands when not more. And not all clumped into convient little spaces for AOE. Giving any substance to 'wizards are rare' and how many wizards do you need to take an army of thousands.

Now its not that magic is unhelpful but that it isn't going to be as game changing as it is in a party setup. Anything with duration measured rounds isn't going to be useful since battles can take hours a waiting game is easy, possible, and appropriate. Many protections can be beat down by sheer numbers, since protection from arrows absorbs 100 damage max while a group of longbows can generate dozens a round. Against large masses of enemies there will be saves made, or other groups never effected in the first place. Going up isn't even necessarily much better, a cloudkill for example can hypothetically take out thousands but would only get a few rounds before opposing troops simply moved out of the way.

Casters have enough gas for a handful of encounters a day depending on level, and armies at battle is like fighting dozens of encounters an hour. Only hiding in a rope trick still means you loose in the end.

[Volkov]

Not to mention, a caster using a fireball is going to single himself out for crossbowmen or archers, who will fill him with so many arrows/bolts the term "Pin Cushion" would be an understatement.

[Asbestos]

How hard would it be to develop an epic spell to push an 25 kilometer in diameter asteroid at 100 kilometers per second at a planet?

That's probably the least impressive thing you could do at Epic. Pre-Epic you have things like Gate and Wish, the world is already over before the planet-killing rock comes into play.

[Fax Celestis]

Not to mention, a caster using a fireball is going to single himself out for crossbowmen or archers, who will fill him with so many arrows/bolts the term "Pin Cushion" would be an understatement.

Enlarged fireball at CL 5 (the earliest one can cast it) deals 5d6 damage at a maximum range of 1200': just under a quarter mile. No archer can shoot that far.

Widened fireball at CL 5 deals 5d6 damage at a maximum range of 600': just under an eighth of a mile, but has a 40' radius spread. That's really big.

Wind Wall renders archers ineffective.

[Oslecamo]

Enlarged fireball at CL 5 (the earliest one can cast it) deals 5d6 damage at a maximum range of 1200': just under a quarter mile. No archer can shoot that far.


Actualy, they can. Bows and Xbows go up to ten range increments. They'll be shooting with a -20 penalty, but true 20s still apply. And a crossbow has 120 base range.

[Asbestos]

Counter with some Fog Clouds. You now either have to get to Gust of Wind range or be a high enough level to have True Seeing or some such see-through-everything ability.

[Fax Celestis]

Actualy, they can. Bows and Xbows go up to ten range increments. They'll be shooting with a -20 penalty, but true 20s still apply. And a crossbow has 120 base range.

Alright, so 1 in 20 archers hits the wizard. Wind wall or protection from arrows should help. And the wizard doesn't need an attack roll for the fireballination.

Really, blaster wizards against a stand-up army make great artillery.

[Volkov]

That's probably the least impressive thing you could do at Epic. Pre-Epic you have things like Gate and Wish, the world is already over before the planet-killing rock comes into play.

Read what I said that would cause. You'd wipe out mammalian life on the planet, as well as most non-mammalian life.

[Volkov]

Enlarged fireball at CL 5 (the earliest one can cast it) deals 5d6 damage at a maximum range of 1200': just under a quarter mile. No archer can shoot that far.

Widened fireball at CL 5 deals 5d6 damage at a maximum range of 600': just under an eighth of a mile, but has a 40' radius spread. That's really big.

Wind Wall renders archers ineffective.

Ballistae are also effective sniper weapons.

[JonestheSpy]

I can't help thinking that the XP costs of making magic items would get in the way of the mass-production of magic items people are talking about here. A kingdom's mages are going to Craft themselves down to 1st level pretty quickly to equip even a company with wands and the like.

Really, this thread illustrates why I prefer low magic settings - if you assume magic is common, then suddenly you're talking about a world who's societies are going to look far more like modern or even advanced sci-fi cultures than the past where people used swords, wore armor, and used castles for defense. And that can be fine if you want to go that way, one should just be logically consistent about it.

[Asbestos]

Read what I said that would cause. You'd wipe out mammalian life on the planet, as well as most non-mammalian life.

Yes, but again, pre-Epic you can cause a Wight Apocalypse and then Gate in hordes of monster of choice and wipe out all life anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

Ballistae are also effective sniper weapons.

Hilariously, ballistae are also covered under wind wall/protection from arrows. You can UMD entropic shield for another miss chance. Wind wall + entropic shield offers you a (.7*.8=.56) 44% miss chance against siege weapons and 100% miss chance against arrows and bolts.

[Volkov]

Yes, but again, pre-Epic you can cause a Wight Apocalypse and then Gate in hordes of monster of choice and wipe out all life anyway.

The point is to try to make sure that the only clade that goes out completely are the mammals. Because mammals suck and Fish, Birds, Invertebrates, and Reptiles are so much cooler. The only mammals I care for are domestic animals, and humans. Human (Women)), well that's mainly a sexual thing for me. :smallbiggrin:

Amphibians however I do not care for at all, they can die with the mammals, because they seem to have lost the will to compete any more.

[Volkov]

Hilariously, ballistae are also covered under wind wall/protection from arrows. You can UMD entropic shield for another miss chance. Wind wall + entropic shield offers you a (.7*.8=.56) 44% miss chance against siege weapons and 100% miss chance against arrows and bolts.

When all else fails, there is the greek fire siphon, the flame-thrower before it was cool. "Burn baby burn!"

[Asbestos]

The point is to try to make sure that the only clade that goes out completely are the mammals. Because mammals suck and Fish, Birds, Invertebrates, and Reptiles are so much cooler. The only mammals I care for are domestic animals, and humans. Human (Women)), well that's mainly a sexual thing for me. :smallbiggrin:

Amphibians however I do not care for at all, they can die with the mammals, because they seem to have lost the will to compete any more.

How are you going to completely wipe out mammals but not the others? Your 25km meteor is non-selective. Mammals have survived giant meteor impacts before, why can't they do it again? Also, what about magical mammals like the ash rat that eat ash for crying out loud!

[Volkov]

How are you going to completely wipe out mammals but not the others? Your 25km meteor is non-selective. Mammals have survived giant meteor impacts before, why can't they do it again? Also, what about magical mammals like the ash rat that eat ash for crying out loud!

Synapsids, which are basically mammals, died to the P-T asteroid an impactor that would make the K-T impactor look like a catapult's rock to a cannonball. Sure some survived, but low oxygen conditions doomed all but the really small mammals. The meteor I'm suggesting would cut oxygen levels to say, %5. And as it would greatly raise temperatures and cause desertification, this would favor Reptiles and birds, who waste almost no water when they excrete as they do not use Urea, which needs a lot of water to dissolve properly. Mammals, who's lung structure is poor for coping with low oxygen conditions and arid conditions, would die out. Archosaurs, such as birds, crocodiles, dinosaurs, raisuchids, dragons, pterosaurs. Would survive and flourish. Lizards, Turtles, and Snakes....not so much.

[deuxhero]

Four... sentences?



Does anyone remember the details from the Drizzt books? I know I'm far off, but I doesn't the wizard school in Menzobarrenzan only hold like 100 apprentices at any one time and their learning period is something like 20 or 30 years? Only something like half of the students actually survive their masters (note how I said survive, not pass).

Every source book that adds fluff to wizarding schools always mentions their small staff and the ridiculous drop out rates. I can't imagine, even in a high magic world, that fully fledged battle ready wizards in any one given area reach the triple digits.

Isn't the school you mentioned an elf school? They grow at 1/7th mental pace (don't ask why they brag about their superiority, I'm still trying to figure that out). Consider that, it would take a non-mentally stunted race somewhere from between 3 and 4 years, college educated people are far from rare.

[technophile]

The problem is, this only really works out if both sides in a conflict have equal access to magical resources or an equally strong 'magical economy'. If both sides do, then I would imagine you'd get a Cold War situation with the battles being waged in various 'proxy wars' between one of the more powerful nations and a lesser (supported by the other nation) or between two lesser nations supported by opposing sides. If there is only one nation controlling the majority of the world's magical economy then its conceivable that yes, they will have armies of constructs waging war against regular living soldiers (in which case soldiers are dying, just not ones on your side). At that point the global popularity of the high-magic nation comes into play. While a war or two with a lesser enemy will barely tax the magical nation, a war on every single front might pose a serious problem (or devastate the world at large).
Joe Haldeman's Forever Peace used a similar scenario. Of course, his was sci-fi, with magic being replaced by nanoforges that could, given the required raw materials and energy, create you anything you wanted. Some countries had them (and remote-controlled war machines), some didn't, and there was a perpetual state of asymmetric war between the two.

You could base a pretty interesting campaign off the idea; reading the book would probably help. (It even uses mindrape, after a fashion... :smallamused:)

[Asbestos]

Synapsids, which are basically mammals, died to the P-T asteroid an impactor that would make the K-T impactor look like a catapult's rock to a cannonball. Sure some survived, but low oxygen conditions doomed all but the really small mammals. The meteor I'm suggesting would cut oxygen levels to say, %5. And as it would greatly raise temperatures and cause desertification, this would favor Reptiles and birds, who waste almost no water when they excrete as they do not use Urea, which needs a lot of water to dissolve properly. Mammals, who's lung structure is poor for coping with low oxygen conditions and arid conditions, would die out. Archosaurs, such as birds, crocodiles, dinosaurs, raisuchids, dragons, pterosaurs. Would survive and flourish. Lizards, Turtles, and Snakes....not so much.

!
Crocs: Dead. They can deal with low O2 for a while... but their lungs are still complete crap.
Birds: They can indeed survive fine in low O2 thanks to their amazingly ridiculous lungs. The same could be said for some (only some) dinosaurs and perhaps pterosaurs but.. it didn't seem to help them before!
Dinosaurs: See birds.
Pterosaurs: See birds.
Raisuchids: They went extinct before the rest of the dinos! Apparently you don't need world ending asteroids to take them out.
Dragons: Dragons are not related to Dinosaurs/Archosaurs. D&D sources have gone out of their way to state this.

At 5% Oxygen you've effectively killed off most if not all fish thanks to partial pressures and diffusion of O2 in water and such.

[Yukitsu]

According to races of the wild, they develop mentally and physically at the same rate as humans. They just don't develop a wanderlust until they are around a 100, when they've experienced everything elven life has to offer.

[Volkov]

!
Crocs: Dead. They can deal with low O2 for a while... but their lungs are still complete crap.
Birds: They can indeed survive fine in low O2 thanks to their amazingly ridiculous lungs. The same could be said for some (only some) dinosaurs and perhaps pterosaurs but.. it didn't seem to help them before!
Dinosaurs: See birds.
Pterosaurs: See birds.
Raisuchids: They went extinct before the rest of the dinos! Apparently you don't need world ending asteroids to take them out.
Dragons: Dragons are not related to Dinosaurs/Archosaurs. D&D sources have gone out of their way to state this.

At 5% Oxygen you've effectively killed off most if not all fish thanks to partial pressures and diffusion of O2 in water and such.
Raisuchids died from an asteroid roughly the same one as the Dinosaur killer. The asteroid ended the age of the Crurotarsan archosaurs and allowed the Avemetatarsalians to take over.

The irony, an asteroid let the dinosaurs rule, and a second one of the same size ended their rule. Easy come, Easy go.

Also, Dragons are probably Archosauromorphs at the least, they possess traits only Archosauromorphs have.

[deuxhero]

According to races of the wild, they develop mentally and physically at the same rate as humans. They just don't develop a wanderlust until they are around a 100, when they've experienced everything elven life has to offer.

Explain why they only reach middle age/old/venerable increased mental stats only come after living 5 times as long as a human.

Elfs are mentally stunted, it's the RAW and the RA(Originally)I (nothing about Elfs makes sense, so they don't fit into RAMS)

[Volkov]

Also, the fish that dwell in the anoxic zone would hardly notice, save for those near methane hydrate deposits, those guys are screwed. Same for the Greenland shark, who regularly goes down there. Fish who live really far down would also be largely unaffected, again, excluding those near methane Hydrate. So yes, this means the freakish and incredibly terrifying deep sea fauna who would not be out of place in a lovecraft novel would repopulate the earth.

I don't care what you are offering me, I'm not going into water full of hatchet fish.

The Aboleth Civilization would be decimated, possibly beyond all repair, forcing them into the same sad state as the Korpu's. The seismic earthquakes would devastate the creatures of the underdark as their caves collapse on them.

[Asbestos]

Raisuchids died from an asteroid roughly the same one as the Dinosaur killer. The asteroid ended the age of the Crurotarsan archosaurs and allowed the Avemetatarsalians to take over.

The irony, an asteroid let the dinosaurs rule, and a second one of the same size ended their rule. Easy come, Easy go.

Also, Dragons are probably Archosauromorphs at the least, they possess traits only Archosauromorphs have.

Actually the cause of the Triassic-Jurassic extinction isn't really a closed case (as the extinction that marked the end of the Mesozoic pretty much is). If you're referring to the crater at Lake Manicouagan (the only real evidence of a serious impact in the Triassic) its dated millions of years before the extinction event which is a significant difference when compared to the geologically instantaneous K-T boundary.

The anatomy of D&D dragons is a hodge-podge of insanity. The possess traits from pretty much all reptilian clades (don't forget that Dragon Turtles are in fact, dragons) and in some cases they appear to actually be synapsids based on skull structure. Combine that with bat-like (rather than pterosaur-like) wings or the bizarre 'fan wings' of certain metallics and you've just got a mess.

[Volkov]

Actually the cause of the Triassic-Jurassic extinction isn't really a closed case (as the extinction that marked the end of the Mesozoic pretty much is). If you're referring to the crater at Lake Manicouagan (the only real evidence of a serious impact in the Triassic) its dated millions of years before the extinction event which is a significant difference when compared to the geologically instantaneous K-T boundary.

The anatomy of D&D dragons is a hodge-podge of insanity. The possess traits from pretty much all reptilian clades (don't forget that Dragon Turtles are in fact, dragons) and in some cases they appear to actually be synapsids based on skull structure. Combine that with bat-like (rather than pterosaur-like) wings or the bizarre 'fan wings' of certain metallics and you've just got a mess.

Actually I'd say that Dragons are Euryapsids and not Synapsids. It's easy to confuse the two as they possess the same number of holes.

[Drider]

Bards, Marshalls, and that other class(dragon something, it had auras that all allies could benefit from) become pretty useful if you have a lot of units, melee in front, bard in middle, range in back kinda deal.
Also, pay an ogre/orc/dragon tribe to sit between you and the enemy, and send a raven(carrying gold) to them everyday, that they send back to be filled with more gold. when they don't send the raven back, it means the enemy got them, and they're strong enough to get a decent chunk of enemies :p
If your DM does'nt like that tactic though, they'll have it start attacking you for no reason, or the enemy finds out about it (somehow) and give it a better deal to betray you.

[Asbestos]

Also, the fish that dwell in the anoxic zone would hardly notice, save for those near methane hydrate deposits, those guys are screwed. Same for the Greenland shark, who regularly goes down there. Fish who live really far down would also be largely unaffected, again, excluding those near methane Hydrate. So yes, this means the freakish and incredibly terrifying deep sea fauna who would not be out of place in a lovecraft novel would repopulate the earth.


It isn't so much a global anoxic zone as anoxic areas. In many places O2 levels actually increase below a certain point thanks to the effect of temperature on O2 diffusion and the decreasing density of aerobic organisms as you reach greater depths. Really deep sea fish would hardly notice thanks to the extremely low rate that O2 already gets down there and the low population densities that live down there. The deep sea might as well be its own closed environment. Regardless, most of the ocean (and next to all land-life) is dead at 5% atmospheric O2.

[Asbestos]

Actually I'd say that Dragons are Euryapsids and not Synapsids. It's easy to confuse the two as they possess the same number of holes.

Except in plenty of stuff the second hole is below where it would be in a Euryapsid, closer to where it would be in a Synapsid. This seems to vary from dragon to dragon though. Again, they're a hodge podge of everything.

Edit: Also, again, if you just want to obliterate mammals I'm sure there exist easier, pre-Epic ways of doing this.

[Volkov]

It isn't so much a global anoxic zone as anoxic areas. In many places O2 levels actually increase below a certain point thanks to the effect of temperature on O2 diffusion and the decreasing density of aerobic organisms as you reach greater depths. Really deep sea fish would hardly notice thanks to the extremely low rate that O2 already gets down there and the low population densities that live down there. The deep sea might as well be its own closed environment. Regardless, most of the ocean (and next to all land-life) is dead at 5% atmospheric O2.

Actually, the bottom of the ocean floor has pretty high oxygen levels due to oxygen being exchanged via currents, amongst other factors, thus allowing arthropods to grow to sizes that wouldn't happen elsewhere, such as a 13 foot long crab. However, the so called twilight zone (no not the show) of the ocean has incredibly low oxygen, as here, there is no way to replenish oxygen, and it is consumed by bacteria.

So in other words, this event could allow the order of vampyromorpha, or the vampire squids to re-radiate, as the last member of this once proud order is incredibly well suited to low oxygen levels.

Arthropods would shrink, a lot.

[Yukitsu]

Explain why they only reach middle age/old/venerable increased mental stats only come after living 5 times as long as a human.

Elfs are mentally stunted, it's the RAW and the RA(Originally)I (nothing about Elfs makes sense, so they don't fit into RAMS)

Explain why any of the mental abilities increase with age at all. :smallconfused:

[Volkov]

Explain why any of the mental abilities increase with age at all. :smallconfused:

Increased life experience and presumable gains in knowledge.

[Yukitsu]

Increased life experience and presumable gains in knowledge.

Yes but that's ranks in knowledge and experience, which don't have anything to do with age.

[Volkov]

Yes but that's ranks in knowledge and experience, which don't have anything to do with age.

Life experience and Wisdom have a direct correlation. And hit dice are actually a measure of how powerful your soul is, as negative levels drain your soul, thus hit dice must be a measure of the soul. As for soulless undead or constructs, then it's purely a physical durability thing.

[Yukitsu]

In game wisdom is mostly just perception though, which goes down with age though. It's not as though there are abilities where you say something profound (as opposed to dramatic) which makes everyone more something. Intelligence usually stays stable or dramatically declines, and charisma is more circumstances and experience than age. It can drop dramatically or it can rise dramatically depending.

[Volkov]

In game wisdom is mostly just perception though, which goes down with age though. It's not as though there are abilities where you say something profound (as opposed to dramatic) which makes everyone more something. Intelligence usually stays stable or dramatically declines, and charisma is more circumstances and experience than age. It can drop dramatically or it can rise dramatically depending.

Intelligence can rise if you have a mutation that allows neurogenesis past infancy. Or in otherwords, a mutation that allows your brain to grow with your body.

[Yukitsu]

I'm not really sure that's really related to what I'm refering too... >_>

[Volkov]

I'm not really sure that's really related to what I'm refering too... >_>

Hey, natural selection could have favored it on Oerth.

[jiriku]

"Reasonable Marines" preferred to Hollywood Tactics.

In this case high magic=base level 3, average level 5, mostly specialist caster class.


Normal tactics of any age doesn't really strike me as a smart idea in a magic setting. A single (otherwise bad) AoE spell pretty much destroys any army found in typical medieval europe land.

The first thing that changes is hiding behind a wall to resist a siege is dead. For that matter, besieging a walled city is dead. Walls cease to be significant factors in defense. Traditional medieval combat, in which large armies massed on open fields and fought on fair-weather days, is dead. The massed cavalry charge is likewise dead. The armored, mounted knight as the supreme battlefield weapon? Dead. Chivalry? Dead. Levying massive armies of conscripts becomes a less effective tactic, because groups of 5th-level characters of any class can easily defeat a force of 1st-level warriors many times their size.

Mobility, maneuver and stealth become important. If the wizards can't find you, they can't blast you. Buffing isn't an effective tactic if enemies can disengage and return a few minutes later when your spells have worn off. Controlling the pace of battle to allow your casters eight hours of rest while denying the same to your foes becomes important.

[Volkov]

The first thing that changes is hiding behind a wall to resist a siege is dead. For that matter, besieging a walled city is dead. Walls cease to be significant factors in defense. Traditional medieval combat, in which large armies massed on open fields and fought on fair-weather days, is dead. The massed cavalry charge is likewise dead. The armored, mounted knight as the supreme battlefield weapon? Dead. Chivalry? Dead. Levying massive armies of conscripts becomes a less effective tactic, because groups of 5th-level characters of any class can easily defeat a force of 1st-level warriors many times their size.

Mobility, maneuver and stealth become important. If the wizards can't find you, they can't blast you. Buffing isn't an effective tactic if enemies can disengage and return a few minutes later when your spells have worn off. Controlling the pace of battle to allow your casters eight hours of rest while denying the same to your foes becomes important.

Actually conscripts will still be effective. A level twenty fighter fighting a hundred level one fighters will be worn down by critical hits until he is dead.

[Volkov]

Also, walls can still be useful, but they'd be magic walls. Imagine a city defended by enormous prismatic walls, or domed by an enormous Prismatic sphere. That'd be an awesome thing to besiege.

[deuxhero]

Walls of the instant variety (like Wall of Stone) seem like they would ahve some use.

[Asbestos]

Intelligence can rise if you have a mutation that allows neurogenesis past infancy. Or in otherwords, a mutation that allows your brain to grow with your body.

Quit killing catgirls by bringing in biology! Also, there is no set theory for how intelligence may arise. Regardless, in D&D INT increases across all PC races as age progresses. It is doubtful that all PC races possess said fantastical mutation for brain growth with age. Also, everyone past a certain age would have noticeably larger heads (or brains, presumably the skull would have to increase in capacity to keep up) The more-than-normal-frequency dividing of these cells would also probably increase the chances of neurogenic brain tumors beyond those of 'normal' humans with relatively somatic brain cells.

[Asbestos]

Also, walls can still be useful, but they'd be magic walls. Imagine a city defended by enormous prismatic walls, or domed by an enormous Prismatic sphere. That'd be an awesome thing to besiege.

Sieges are impractical in high-magic settings as create food/water traps and various spells make resources inside and outside of the besieged city limitless.

[Volkov]

Sieges are impractical in high-magic settings as create food/water traps and various spells make resources inside and outside of the besieged city limitless.

That's why you have to hit it with the counter-spells to prismatic sphere. Though when we faced it, there were seven to the seventh power sphere layers.