3.5 - bringing class power levels closer together

[Elves-as-People]

First of all, I like low level characters to not be superheros (which is why I'm not a fan of Exalted or 4e) - I like them to start slow and gradually get more amazing.

Big problems - Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are running rampant all over everyone's herb gardens and noone can stop them.

Problem - Paladin, Knight, Ranger, Barbarian, and Rogue are useless in the presense of the broke-tastic 3

( I don't care about archivists or artificers so they can do whatever, far away from my campaign)

I'm working with CORE, PH2, UA, and forgotten realms material.

Thoughts so far:

No wildshape for druids.

Allow the ranger wildshape variant for players who love wildshape. Allow variant ranger fighting styles.

Give Paladins turn undead sooner. Give them a bonus "Divine" feat when they get turn undead, and let them use it as a free action.

Variant Barbarians are allowed, but I don't know if that really helps much

Knights? No idea

Clerics: Split the class into healer/buffer cleric, and warrior cleric with self buff fighter spells and damage spells
OR
Eliminate cleric spells that make them out fight fighters.

Wizards (and possibly other casters) - switch to spellpoint system in unearthed arcana. More magic at their low levels of vulnerability, less at higher levels. All wizards must specialize to prevent them from being able to pull any magic trick out of their hat, spells aside from those gained by leveling may be harder to come by, and eliminate save or die spells (evil, dark, forbidden magic...)

Additional note - I'm against the magic item glut of 3.5, especially regarding caster stat boosting items, so there will be no headbands of intellect or periapts of wisdom for sale at the local shop, or really anywhere.

I don't want to solve this problem with magic items, or by just giving random bonuses for the sake of bonuses to fighter-types. My real effort is to reign in casters without making them lost a lot of their flavor the way 4e did.

Also, for reference on class relative power level:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

PEACH

[Glimbur]

You're not hitting wizards hard enough. Spell Points let them cast their higher level spells until they're about out of juice entirely, which generally will mean more of their highest level spells. Or it maps fairly well back to the Vancian system if they want to pretend they're still limited by that. Specialization isn't hard enough. I suggest using the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and the Warmage. Throw out a lot of Divination to save DM headaches and throw out Teleports and company. That'll make life easier.

[Latronis]

I agree, Spell Points are potentially more power for wizards.

And while Wildshape is potentially problematic as is, i think it's far too druid-defining to be simply removed

[Ashtagon]

1) All wizards must specialise.
2) Clerics should have spell choice limitations dictated by their deity's domains, kind of like 2e's spheres, but better-implemented for balance.
3) Druids are assumed to have a deity with air, earth, fire, water, plant, animal, and sun domains, for purposes of spell availability.
3) Spells of 6th level and higher simply don't exist. Characters can use those slots for meta-magiced spells normally. Many of these spells could be converted to incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm), although GM discretion is advised.
4) Druids use the wildshape variant class feature from PHB2.
5) Animal companions are limited to half class level for both druids and rangers. This turns them from additional hit point soaks into utility scouts.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And while Wildshape is potentially problematic as is, i think it's far too druid-defining to be simply removed

Not really. It wasn't even a major part of the druid until 3e; here's the 2e version:

[The druid] gains the ability to shapechange into a reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times per day after he reaches 7th level. Each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) can be used only once per day. The size can vary from that of a bullfrog or small bird to as large as a black bear. Upon assuming a new form, the druid heals 10-60% (1d6 × 10%) of all damage he has suffered (round fractions down). The druid can only assume the form of a normal (real world) animal in its normal proportions, but by doing so he takes on all of that creature's characteristics -- its movement rate and abilities, its Armor Class, number of attacks, and damage per attack.

Thus, a druid could change into a wren to fly across a river, transform into a black bear on the opposite side and attack the orcs gathered there, and finally change into a snake to escape into the bushes before more orcs arrive. The druid's clothing and one item held in each hand also become part of the new body; these reappear when the druid resumes his normal shape. The items cannot be used while the druid is in animal form.

It's not exactly the powerhouse it is in 3e, and it's a minor additional ability rather than a major focus of the class.

[grautry]

All wizards must specialize to prevent them from being able to pull any magic trick out of their hat

1) All wizards must specialise.

This, I don't understand.

How does forcing wizards to specialize limit their power? Half the 'optimized wizard' builds you'll find out there are either specialists or focused specialists.

By eliminating specialization you're merely restricting options instead of actually reducing wizard power.


3) Spells of 6th level and higher simply don't exist. Characters can use those slots for meta-magiced spells normally. Many of these spells could be converted to incantations, although GM discretion is advised.

This presents a problem with some high level crafting.

If you're using such restrictions I'd recommend restricting the spells to 7th level and saying that any crafting that requires a spell of level higher than that uses Limited Wish.

Also, in this case I'd give Heighten Spell for free to all spellcasting classes.

Incidentally, a good point to start with any 'rebalancing' ideas is to say that ToB classes are standard and their sub-par predecessors simply do not exist. It will make things far easier in the long run.

[Anonymouswizard]

If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points. Druids could lose wild shape, or how about a casting focused druid only able to turn into tiny animals and a heavily shapshifting druid that has bard casting.

Clerics, maybe this will help. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

I don't have anything more to say, although if you do include wizards, 6-8 classes who focus on a single school.

[Elves-as-People]

The thing is, I'm trying to keep the core base (rather than dig around buying a lot of out of print books), so I have PH2 so Beguiler is in, but don't have the dread necro or warmage books.

Tomb of Battle as the default melee's (aside from Crusader) feels goofy, as I don't like the super hero feel that products building up to 4e have (I hate the way 4e plays)

I've eliminated crafting as a means to limit caster power already. Scrolls and Potions can be purchased, other magic items are all very rare (monster adjustments will be made to accomodate for this - dig around for my previous homebrew threads)

Does anyone have an idea for how to restrict wizards that provides an easy template to create beguiler, warmage, or dread necro power classes but along any theme the player wants?

The 2 sphere idea sounds great for clerics. I'll work on that one.

And to the above post - druids being able to turn into animals goes back pretty deep, but the turning into grizzly bears and mauling people started with 3rd. I think the UA wildshape variant ranger is more appropriate as it allows that potent ability to be the focus of the class, not just one of the tricks up it's sleeve the way core druids are.

[lesser_minion]

Spells of 8th and 9th don't really do much aside from add a little flavour. At the expense of guaranteeing that your game is well and truly wrecked by the time they arrive on the scene. Retooling them might be worth a try, but pruning everything back to use no more than six levels of spell would improve things even if you kept the higher level spells.

I think the best way to handle Wish and Gate-summoning might be to combine them. Bind a being of cosmic power and significance and it should be able to do all the stuff a normal Wish does. So casting Wish summons a being that already owes you a favour and allows you to make a request of it. If the being is powerful enough, you can make sweeping changes to much of the cosmos. At the same time, the spell is essentially in the hands of the DM, and if you cast it without asking a specific creature, then something might decide that you owe it a favour in exchange.

That blows any sort of wish-looping out of the water.

If you want to cast Gate... you make a portal to another plane. Cool.

And if you want to cast Rune of Invocation, a friendly creature turns up and helps you out for no charge. And guess what spell Candles of Invocation cast?

[Sir Homeslice]

Tomb of Battle as the default melee's (aside from Crusader) feels goofy, as I don't like the super hero feel that products building up to 4e have (I hate the way 4e plays)

I was unaware of the Warblade's variations of "hit things hard", "hit things harder", "hit things smarter", "hit things better", and "hit things even better" all constitute being "superhero" like. Unarmed Variant Swordsages are pretty much what the monk should have been, and the regular Swordsage makes for a good Rogue-like with Shadow Hand.

ToB is pretty much the best thing that's happened to melee in 3.5e, optionswise.

[Elves-as-People]

I was unaware of the Warblade's variations of "hit things hard", "hit things harder", "hit things smarter", "hit things better", and "hit things even better" all constitute being "superhero" like. Unarmed Variant Swordsages are pretty much what the monk should have been, and the regular Swordsage makes for a good Rogue-like with Shadow Hand.

ToB is pretty much the best thing that's happened to melee in 3.5e, optionswise.

I guess you're right, but the mechanics just seem weird. The power recharge system seems silly to me. And their names could use some work.



If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points. Druids could lose wild shape, or how about a casting focused druid only able to turn into tiny animals and a heavily shapshifting druid that has bard casting.

Clerics, maybe this will help. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

I don't have anything more to say, although if you do include wizards, 6-8 classes who focus on a single school.

Perhaps make wizards stat'ed as sorcerers, but given them more spells known (1 or 2 per level?) and limit them to only 2 or 3 schools to choose from?

[Solaris]

I like making wizards pay for their spells. An excerpt from my wizard replacer, about his spellcasting, MAD, and spellstone:
Spells: A rune magician is an arcane spellcaster who suffers arcane spell failure when wearing armor. He draws on the destructive, chaotic energies left over from the ancient clash between the Twin Flames in ancient prehistory, tracing runes with spellstone to force the magic to follow his will. The rune magician gains his spells through careful study and hard work, scribing them into a spellbook from tomes and scrolls. He must spend eight uninterrupted hours a day studying his spellbook in order to cast his spells, and he selects a number of spells to be on his daily spell list equal to his Intelligence score. The rune magician may cast any spell on his daily spell list at will so long as he has the mana to pay its cost. All of a rune magician's spells have no verbal component but cannot use the Still Spell metamagic feat.

A rune magician needs an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the spell's level to cast a spell. He begins play with a number of spells equal to 2 + his Intelligence modifier, and to learn more he must make a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell level. The rune magician does not gain spells simply from leveling-up; he must actively seek them out if he wishes to become more powerful. The saving throw Difficult Class to resist a spell's effects is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rune magician's caster level + the Wisdom modifier. He can spend up to his caster level in mana on a single spell.

To cast a spell, a rune magician must make a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + spell level. Missing this DC by 5 or less results in the magical energy simply fizzling out, but missing by 6 or more results in an arcane backlash that deals 1 point of damage per spell level to the caster. Missing by 15 or more results in this backlash also damaging everyone within 5 feet of the caster. Attempting to cast a spell higher than the magician's maximum spell level increases this DC by +10 for every level above his maximum.

The rune magician casts spells from mana he draws out of the mystical substance known as spellstone. A powerful and advanced magician is able to cast some spells without spellstone, though his power is limited compared to what he can achieve with it. A rune magician gains bonus mana for having a high Charisma score. He fully replenishes this mana with eight hours of rest or study.

Preparing raw spellstone requires an alchemical lab (worth 500 gold, which can be reused) and 6 ranks in Craft (alchemy). It requires a DC 15 Craft (alchemy) check, reagents worth 5 silver per ounce of spellstone being processed, and an hour to process raw spellstone into its refined state. The rune magician's ability to process spellstone increases as he goes up in level. Spellstone he prepares provides 10 + his class level + his Charisma modifier in mana points from a single ounce of refined spellstone, burning the stone into a cinder as he draws the mana out of it.

I have 'em use the Bard's SP chart and get bonus SP/MP/mana from a high Charisma score.
TL;DR: Skill checks to cast, Intelligence determines max number known per day but they cast spontaneously from that number known, they don't get free spells at level-up, Wisdom determines the save DCs (which I calculate like a monster's special abilities, YMMV), and Charisma determines how many spells they'll be able to cast in a day.

[Ashtagon]

This (specialist wizards), I don't understand.

How does forcing wizards to specialize limit their power? Half the 'optimized wizard' builds you'll find out there are either specialists or focused specialists.

By eliminating specialization you're merely restricting options instead of actually reducing wizard power.

I've noticed this is a common counterpoint. It's true that requiring specialism doesn't restrict the total power. You still have just as many spells per day etc. But it forces the wizard to be focused in a single area more, which limits his flexibility. But making the wizard less flexible, he isn't so much of a "batman" type, able to do anything.


This (no spells beyond 5th level) presents a problem with some high level crafting.

If you're using such restrictions I'd recommend restricting the spells to 7th level and saying that any crafting that requires a spell of level higher than that uses Limited Wish.

Also, in this case I'd give Heighten Spell for free to all spellcasting classes.

Apart from crafting stuff being unheroic, it creates a few balance issues of its own (primarily in terms of breaking the wealth-by-level curve).

If you absolutely must have those spells for the crafting, either a) declare that any such spell can *only* be cast as part of a crafting task, or b) create an incantation (see srd) that roughly duplicates the original spell, and make that incantation the crafting component instead of the original high-level spell.

But no free Heighten Spell feat. the point is to weaken the top tier casters, not strengthen them. They still get to use these high-level slots for either ordinary spells (although this wastes some of the potential of the high level slots) or metamagicked spells.

Oh, one other thing which I missed... save DCs for all spells are set at DC 15, not 10 + 1/2 caster level (or 10 + spell level). This more closely matches the 1e/2e saves.

Why? 1e/2e had saves that varied only with the abilities of the target. The caster couldn't do anything to twink out the saving throw difficulty. This meant that high-level enemies typically always made their saves, and low-level enemies typically failed them more often than not. At low levels, when wizards use low level spells, the spells aren't instant win buttons, so it's not a game breaker if the enemies fail their saves. At high levels, with win button spells no longer having a good chance of success, it forces wizards to switch to "save or 1/2 damage" spells, bringing them back into the same game that the fighters and other "attack the hp" guys are playing.

[Elves-as-People]

I should mention for the sake of my campaign and my concerns - I've eliminated crafting. It's a goofy system, and I put it to sleep.

Potions and Scrolls are the only easy to purchase items, and only low level scrolls.

Save or Die spells are gone. Save or may as well be dead spells - open to suggestions.

But my real concern here is smoothing mid levels, not really high levels.

[Roderick_BR]

Interesting stuff suggested.

Fighter: You could just use the warblade, really. Rename what you think is too weird. Things like "Raging Moongose" and "Mountain Tombstone Strike" Do sound goofy, just call them "two-weapon-strike" and "devastating-blow". Works fine.
If not, I suggest the variant to give him all the weapon-focus tree as class features in the odd levels.

Ranger: Give them both styles, fix two-weapon-fighting (allow them to attack with each weapon once whenever they are allowed a single attack), and maybe increase the lethality of the ranged weapons (better damage, increased criticals?)

Barbarian: One idea I was working with is to add both the normal Rage, and the Berzerker Strenth. The character enters an "auto-rage" when too injured, or whenever he needs, a certain ammount of times.

Paladin: I guess he works well using the crusader's rules, and by your post, I think you agree. Just go with him. If not, there's some fixes for him around, including a powerful PrC one.

Monk: Again, Tome of Battle works fine to fix them, making them look more like the mythical unarmed warrior thing.

I won't talk much about casters, but an idea would be to turn the 7th, 8th, and 9th spells into rituals, meaning that they require longer casting times and expensive/hard to find, materials. It would make spells like celerity and time stop useless, but they are considered game-breaking anyway.
And if you do that, do make Heighten Spell a normal ability instead of a feat.

Good luck with your game.

[Chrono22]

I'd say the biggest thing would be to identify broken spells, and to ban/fix them.

Letting classes advance their initiator level (stances/maneuvers) according to their BAB would help. So, a cleric might have limited access depending on his level... while fighters, barbarians, and other warriors can excel at it. This also addresses the issue of wizards that want to fight mooks effectively.
So, to reiterate, BAB would become AL (attack level). AL becomes the combat equivalent of CL.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've noticed this is a common counterpoint. It's true that requiring specialism doesn't restrict the total power. You still have just as many spells per day etc. But it forces the wizard to be focused in a single area more, which limits his flexibility. But making the wizard less flexible, he isn't so much of a "batman" type, able to do anything.

So, I hate to burst the bubble on this, but as long as you're keeping Transmutation and Conjuration, you'll be fine. Or specialize in Divination, ban Evocation and lose nothing. Even then, most of the time I ban Necromancy, Evocation, and Enchantment, losing a few situational buffs, a lot of will save debuffs (which, oddly enough, I can get from Divination), and some undead related abilities.




Oh, one other thing which I missed... save DCs for all spells are set at DC 15, not 10 + 1/2 caster level (or 10 + spell level). This more closely matches the 1e/2e saves.

In 3.5, spell save DCs do not work that way. For spells and spell-like abilities, it's 10+Casting stat+spell level. For supernatural, it's 10+1/2level+Cha mod, usually. I also feel that it makes sense for a centuries old wizard to have a more difficult to resist spell than someone who just started casting. I also find the idea that more advanced magics are also more difficult to resist than something like prestidigitation.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Big problems - Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are running rampant all over everyone's herb gardens and noone can stop them.

Problem - Paladin, Knight, Ranger, Barbarian, and Rogue are useless in the presense of the broke-tastic 3

Honestly, in a core-ish setting, Paladins and Rangers can manage with proper spell selection. The rogue can, too, by virtue of having easy access to UMD. Barbarians hit things really hard and not much else, sadly, but they at least have 4+ for skills. The Knight has some options for locking down opposition, but it comes a little late and the Knight's Challenges are somewhat underwhelming.



Thoughts so far:

No wildshape for druids.

Allow the ranger wildshape variant for players who love wildshape. Allow variant ranger fighting styles.

This is a good move. The fighting styles really aren't the Ranger's bread and butter, so throwing wildshape at them helps... a lot. Giving druids something like the PHB2 shapeshift variant instead of wildshape is also a very good idea.


Give Paladins turn undead sooner. Give them a bonus "Divine" feat when they get turn undead, and let them use it as a free action.

So, turn undead, in and of itself, ain't doing much. You can affect, maybe level appropriate things like a lich, but they have things like turn resistance. From what I recall, most divine feats are pretty jank, barring DMM, and two I vaguely recall off-hand.


Variant Barbarians are allowed, but I don't know if that really helps much

Barbarians are pretty solid on the damage dealing front, have a decent amount of skills, and not much else. Still, moar options is moar better, so allowing them to have variants is a good thing.



Clerics: Split the class into healer/buffer cleric, and warrior cleric with self buff fighter spells and damage spells
OR
Eliminate cleric spells that make them out fight fighters.

First off, do not split the cleric class. The issue will still arise with there being a kicking caster outdoing the fighter. Honestly, rather than remove spells, I would just make things like Righteous Might and Divine Power touch, so other people can get the love, too. Although, you may still want to get rid of Divine Power.


Wizards (and possibly other casters) - switch to spellpoint system in unearthed arcana. More magic at their low levels of vulnerability, less at higher levels. All wizards must specialize to prevent them from being able to pull any magic trick out of their hat, spells aside from those gained by leveling may be harder to come by, and eliminate save or die spells (evil, dark, forbidden magic...)

As has already been mentioned, spell points only help casters do what they do better longer. Also, specialization is not a hindrance, assuming the character is playing smart. As I mentioned in a previous post, going Diviner with Evocation banned loses nothing, thanks to Illusion. If anything, specialization adds to a wizard's staying power for the 15 minutes workday.


Additional note - I'm against the magic item glut of 3.5, especially regarding caster stat boosting items, so there will be no headbands of intellect or periapts of wisdom for sale at the local shop, or really anywhere.

This, just, no. Stat boosting items help debuff and Save or Die spells, as well as further increasing staying power. The rub here? Mr. Fighter and Mr. Monk are the ones that need items to keep up with things like ghosts or gigantic grappling death turrets or dragons. The one thing that has been shown in recent Fighter X vs Wizard Y (where, Y<X) is that the fighter can keep up due to having a large amount of cash to buy things that prevent him from losing to spells.


Also, for reference on class relative power level:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

So, the Tier system isn't a direct measure of power, but more a measure of options. By virtue of having spells, casters have more options. Even if 70% of said spells of each level are jank, the ones that are good, will be so. Wizards are Tier 1 due to options and the power of said options.


First of all, I like low level characters to not be superheros (which is why I'm not a fan of Exalted or 4e) - I like them to start slow and gradually get more amazing.

Wait... wait... that, really? This makes no sense!:smalltongue:

[Latronis]

Not really. It wasn't even a major part of the druid until 3e; here's the 2e version:


It's not exactly the powerhouse it is in 3e, and it's a minor additional ability rather than a major focus of the class.

I'm not overly concerned about the power of wildshape in 3.x as I am about druids have pretty much always turned into animals. Simply removing something it's always had, and quite frankly is a common draw into the class doesn't seem the best adjustment. Might be better off limiting forms and perhaps spending time transforming to limiting (though not completly removing) combat applications. Oh and natural spell that need a serious frowning. I use it as a metamagic feat instead but complete removal could be considered too (since giving up spellcasting for some combat ability seems a much fairer trade)

[Zeful]

I guess you're right, but the mechanics just seem weird. The power recharge system seems silly to me. And their names could use some work. The ToB recharge mechanics is the best representation of actual fighting in D&D. It's possible to use the same snap kick a dozen times in the same fight but it's unfeasible to use it right after another snap kick, as you will very likely be out of position, or the opponent will be expecting it or a dozen other variables that are simply abstracted out of combat in D&D.



Perhaps make wizards stat'ed as sorcerers, but given them more spells known (1 or 2 per level?) and limit them to only 2 or 3 schools to choose from?
Or all wizards start casting spells from only one school and every two levels give all wizards a choice a new spell level in all your schools or a new spell school at you current spell level. So you can get 9th level spells in three schools, but after that you get less and less. Then sit down and redefine all the schools and then accept no substitutes. If a spell doesn't fit into any of the schools it gets tossed, unless it's an archetypal spell then it gets moved to the Universal school (which also has been changed to the school that is part of all wizard education, thus is something available to all wizards).

[Elves-as-People]

Thrice-Dead-Cat, some of your comments don't make sense to me. Are you sure you read through my whole post?

[JonestheSpy]

I have a lot of the same prejudices as Elves-As-People, including a general dislike of Tome of Battle, although I think it has some useful stuff. I definitley agree that the "Any magic item you want is available at Wal-Mart" thing should be tossed into the garbage can, then said can should be encased in a block of cement and dropped into the ocean.

My opinions run along these lines:

Wildshape is not broken for druids, largely because most animals have such bad armor class. Just forbid cheesey dinosaur shapes that the druid would never know about (especially the especially lame ones from the later monster manuals) and if you want to be particularly harsh no Natural Spell.

Clerics - limit spells by dieties domains in a common sense way. Clerics of Nerull don't cure, clerics of Pelor don't use Finger of Death. Divine Metamagic that trades turn undead attempts for uberspells gets stuffed into a rocket and shot into the nearest black hole.

Wizards - don't allow automaticaccess to any spell. They start off with a minimal spellbook, and have to work hard to expand it. This was actually a crucual part of 1st edtion d&D, and of Jack Vance's stories that inspired the magic system - knowledge of spells was precious, and only legendary entities had access to them all. The ability to choose a spell for every situation is part of what overpwers the wizard in regular campaigns - but it shouldn't be so limited that they're worse off than sorcerers.

Combat classes - I hate to say, but I think thre's a lot to be said for incorporating some elements of Tome of Battle without the overdone "Just ditch the fighter and use warblade instead" routine. Fighters, paladins, etc, can gain a small number of stances/manuevers the same way other classes gain special abilities as they gain levels.

As for crafting items - a creator also has to be able to make the item that is being enchanted - no just buying a masterwork sword then casting spells on it. If you want to make that magic sword, you have to have the skill points to forge a masterwork sword, and no taking 20 or even 10 - the process is difficult and the enchantment is wrapped up in the creation of the item itself, and if you fail then you lose the same experience points (or only half, if the DM is being merciful) that you would have if you succeeded.

[Latronis]

Natural Spell is a problem, for the cost of a feat your druid not only has a form to do anything he wants at the least aswell as \ or close to \ if not better than someone else, he can do it without giving up spellcasting. And that i think is the biggest problem with druids, they can do anything for nothing. If you wanna scout or fight as a druid i'm not againest it personally, but there should be sacrifice. Give up the spellcasting! (or limit it via making it metamagic)

Which leads to clerics, same kinda problem... they just became too damn good at fighting for no cost. Maybe look at the cloistered cleric so they have less of a base to buff off, than see if the buffs themselves still need working on(you could make said buffs affect others(so fighters become a more viable choice to buff), or you could just strip spellcasting for the duration(there is a precedent for it in earlier editions)).

Divine Metamagic can be a problem but the biggest abuse comes from those blasted sticks. DMM is although; so awesomely flavourful and quite frankly i despise clerics :P

Tweaked lists based on deities domains is a nice idea too, but then you'd probably wanna enforce a must have a god rule.

Actually I'd be inclined to change the turn undead around based on deity too. I mean for some gods it just makes no sense at all. So you could have some clerics of some gods bolster summons with it instead, or turn elementals of a certain type(like certain domain powers)

For Wizards I only have specialists in my campaign world anyway but that's not so much a balance choice as it is a logic one(you don't go to college\university and study everything afterall generalists have just never sat well with me). But then I did combine some of the schools and rearrange some of the spells within schools to fix some of the quite frankly insane conjuration does everything and the like issues and making sure every school has something you will miss.

[Ashtagon]

So, I hate to burst the bubble on this, but as long as you're keeping Transmutation and Conjuration, you'll be fine. Or specialize in Divination, ban Evocation and lose nothing. Even then, most of the time I ban Necromancy, Evocation, and Enchantment, losing a few situational buffs, a lot of will save debuffs (which, oddly enough, I can get from Divination), and some undead related abilities.


Hmm, I guess you have a point with the regular 3.5e specialisation rules. I shoudl have mentioned my own houserule take on specialists:

* There are 16 arcane schools, with a small amount of overlap. (I have a somewhat unique take on how these have been split up, and most have some useful spells from every 3.5e "school").
* "alignment" spells have been banned (along with alignment rules in general).
* "element" spells have been split into four separate spells, which go to separate schools.
* "energy spells have also been split into separate spells.
* Any spell not on your school's list is always treated as if it were one spell level higher.




In 3.5, spell save DCs do not work that way. For spells and spell-like abilities, it's 10+Casting stat+spell level. For supernatural, it's 10+1/2level+Cha mod, usually. I also feel that it makes sense for a centuries old wizard to have a more difficult to resist spell than someone who just started casting. I also find the idea that more advanced magics are also more difficult to resist than something like prestidigitation.

Yes, I know 3.5e makes it 10+ modifiers, which means the flat DC 15 I proposed is not how 3.5 works. That is part of what makes save or dies broken and discourages the hp-attacking spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Yes, I know 3.5e makes it 10+ modifiers, which means the flat DC 15 I proposed is not how 3.5 works. That is part of what makes save or dies broken and discourages the hp-attacking spells.

Right, because HP gained/CR > Damage gained/CL. Still, Save or Dies? Cool, I'm still doing the fighter's job for him. A well built fighter or barbarian can pounce on something and shred it turn one. A wizard doing the same with a limited use/day ability? Eh, sure, it's a really nice trick to pull, but the real trick to wizardry is either buff, debuff, or battlefield control. Two of the three demand the caster to be able to bust out an ability that creatures may actually fail, that or find spells which either don't require saves or still do enough on a failed save.

Also, by mid-level, it is absurdly easy to get the magical +13. You fail on a 1 anyhow, so no sense in getting your saves any higher.


Thrice-Dead-Cat, some of your comments don't make sense to me. Are you sure you read through my whole post?

Could you care to elaborate so I can elaborate?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm not overly concerned about the power of wildshape in 3.x as I am about druids have pretty much always turned into animals. Simply removing something it's always had, and quite frankly is a common draw into the class doesn't seem the best adjustment. Might be better off limiting forms and perhaps spending time transforming to limiting (though not completly removing) combat applications. Oh and natural spell that need a serious frowning. I use it as a metamagic feat instead but complete removal could be considered too (since giving up spellcasting for some combat ability seems a much fairer trade)

I suppose what I was going for with that comparison was pointing out that turning into animals is really a minor aspect of the druid, and could just as easily be handled as another spell (one or more self-only minor version of animal shapes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalShapes.htm), for instance) rather than a class ability. Removing wild shape and adding spells to the same effect would shift the druid from "the class who turns into animals to bite your face off and can also cast spells" into a nature caster who can focus on weather magic, shapechanging, manipulating plants, or various other foci.

[JonestheSpy]

Forgot one other important ting - higher concentration checks for casters when damaged, grappled, etc, and apply check if they're damged any time during the round they want to cast a spell.

[Elves-as-People]

Could you care to elaborate so I can elaborate?

I was already planning on eliminating save or dies, and the UA spellpoint system means specialists can still prepare one more spell per day, but they are casting it with a spell pool of the same size as all other wizards (which works out to lest spells levels per day castable at higher levels (so no extra casts per day from spec, just an extra option).

The alternative would be to make or find hombrew classes along the lines of beguiler and warmage for other themes.

[lesser_minion]

I suppose what I was going for with that comparison was pointing out that turning into animals is really a minor aspect of the druid, and could just as easily be handled as another spell (one or more self-only minor version of animal shapes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalShapes.htm), for instance) rather than a class ability. Removing wild shape and adding spells to the same effect would shift the druid from "the class who turns into animals to bite your face off and can also cast spells" into a nature caster who can focus on weather magic, shapechanging, manipulating plants, or various other foci.

Combining the two would probably be the best solution - instead of spellcasting or wild shape, the Druid has 'aspects' which can grant her new powers and abilities.

The druid picks a small number of aspects to specialise in, and it's up to you how much your druid changes form.

Of course, turning into a bear will probably get in the way of nice stuff like entrancing your enemies and driving your allies into a blind rage, but you'd end up with a pretty versatile character and she wouldn't be as overpowering.

You could probably make players make more use of their environment using this sort of system as well - instead of turning into a dinosaur and eating face, you could try cauing a rockslide or summoning a forest fire.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I was already planning on eliminating save or dies, and the UA spellpoint system means specialists can still prepare one more spell per day, but they are casting it with a spell pool of the same size as all other wizards (which works out to lest spells levels per day castable at higher levels (so no extra casts per day from spec, just an extra option).

The issue, though, is that, with spellpoints, wizard act like psions, but with a metric ton of more options. I am personally indifferent to save or dies. Nice to have, but I prefer more global-effecting save or loses, like sleep.

[Anonymouswizard]

The issue, though, is that, with spellpoints, wizard act like psions, but with a metric ton of more options. I am personally indifferent to save or dies. Nice to have, but I prefer more global-effecting save or loses, like sleep.

Can Ou point me to a high level version of sleep? I don't see the point of acribing it into your spellbook as it is of little use beond about 4th level.

And also, if you want to use spellpoints and nerf casters: 3.0 psionics had a good idea for this. Re arange the spells into six schools, and then have MAD casting. For example: abjuration (dex), conjuration (with evocation spells) (con), divination (wis), enchantment (with illusion spells) (cha), Necromancy (int), and transmutation (str). If you want them to all be mental attributes: abjuration is wis, conjuration is int, and transmutation is cha. However, tansmutation and abjuration are rough guesses.

Make all wizards specialize: abjurers, diviners, enchanters and necromancers lose one school, while conjurers and transmuters lose two.

However, it is entirely up to you. Do you want me to try and brew this MAD casting system, and the mage and preist classes.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Can Ou point me to a high level version of sleep? I don't see the point of acribing it into your spellbook as it is of little use beond about 4th level.

Deep Slumber, hits peeps up to 8 HD? I honestly don't remember, but, for their levels, sleep and color spray are wonderful. You just jump up when need be, using lower level slots for things like knock.


And also, if you want to use spellpoints and nerf casters: 3.0 psionics had a good idea for this. Re arange the spells into six schools, and then have MAD casting. For example: abjuration (dex), conjuration (with evocation spells) (con), divination (wis), enchantment (with illusion spells) (cha), Necromancy (int), and transmutation (str). If you want them to all be mental attributes: abjuration is wis, conjuration is int, and transmutation is cha. However, tansmutation and abjuration are rough guesses.

I would actively call this bad advice. So, Transmutation jumps up even more in power, as there are numerous spells that cause strength to skyrocket. 3.0 psionics MAD did not actually help balance it. It was just simultaneously brokenly powerful and brokenly weak at the same time. Just because it averages out to the same as a rogue or barbarian means jack when you're at the edges of the bellcurve.

[Anonymouswizard]

Deep Slumber, hits peeps up to 8 HD? I honestly don't remember, but, for their levels, sleep and color spray are wonderful. You just jump up when need be, using lower level slots for things like knock.

I would actively call this bad advice. So, Transmutation jumps up even more in power, as there are numerous spells that cause strength to skyrocket. 3.0 psionics MAD did not actually help balance it. It was just simultaneously brokenly powerful and brokenly weak at the same time. Just because it averages out to the same as a rogue or barbarian means jack when you're at the edges of the bellcurve.

Thanks for the suggestion. I acually like colour spray.

And also, I only sugessted the spell schools as examples. If you notice I try to nerf conjurers and transmuters slightly.

Also, If you are doing spell points, to me they remove the best part about being a specialist wizard.

[Lysander]

Here's what I suggest to balance things out:

Druid
Someone said something about limiting wild shape to a few forms. This is the way to go. Really, the idea of druids being "turn into anything" shapeshifters is actually way off flavor. What makes more sense is a person that has one or two animalistic forms that matches their personality which improve in power over levels. For example, a cunning and vicious druid that can take wolf form, then dire wolf form, then an elemental fire wolf.

Cleric
The solution here is simple. Don't let clerics cast buff spells on themselves. They're there to lead others on the path of righteousness, not do it themselves. Clerics will still be decent warriors and have attack spells to keep enemies at bay, but a fighter with Bull's Strength will outdo them in melee.

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

[Glimbur]

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

The problem with "all new spells are incredibly rare" is that it makes leveling up as a wizard not very useful. As I go from second to third level, it would be nice to be able to cast second level spells. If I have to ask the party to go on a quest so that I can, and until then I have to just cast meta-magic'd first level spells, then getting a new level of spells doesn't feel that useful.

Have you considered banning Wizards and only allowing Sorcerers whose spell lists you will carefully monitor? It's pretty much the same effect (controlling spell selection) but less harsh to players.

[Anonymouswizard]

The problem with "all new spells are incredibly rare" is that it makes leveling up as a wizard not very useful. As I go from second to third level, it would be nice to be able to cast second level spells. If I have to ask the party to go on a quest so that I can, and until then I have to just cast meta-magic'd first level spells, then getting a new level of spells doesn't feel that useful.

Have you considered banning Wizards and only allowing Sorcerers whose spell lists you will carefully monitor? It's pretty much the same effect (controlling spell selection) but less harsh to players.

I bet people will priase you for WHAT I SUGESSTED LAST PAGE!

Okay, it wasn't the focus of the post, but it was around the SDC.

[Hyooz]

I bet people will priase you for WHAT I SUGESSTED LAST PAGE!

Okay, it wasn't the focus of the post, but it was around the SDC.

That is... not at all what you suggested.


If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points.

That is what you suggested. Nothing like what Glimbur is suggesting.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sorry, I think I mentioned that somewhere. If not, I do believe that that was suggested.

[Anonymouswizard]

If you are going spell points remove the wizard entirely, and nerf the sorcerer to wizard spell points.

Acually I did say that, it was just a minor part of the post. I was referring to the remove the wizard bit, not the moniter the spell lists part of his post. :tongue:

[Stompy]

Here's what I suggest to balance things out:

[...]

Wizard
As said earlier, make spells really rare. Getting a single new spell should be a quest objective. Don't allow them to research custom spells. Don't introduce spells that are overpowered or would disrupt your campaign like teleport. Let your players discuss which spells they would like with you though, and let their character find ways of tracking down a copy of it.

So, I have a question, how often do you want the wizard to get a spell (1/quest, 1/3 quests, 1/lvl...), and with the rare spells thing, what makes a wizard different then a sorcerer?

EDIT: Also, what's preventing the wizards from getting together to share/trade/buy spells off of each other? Or better yet, what if I could get spells from my organization "The worship center of insert arcana diety here"?

Although the idea of buying/trading spells does sound cool. :)

[lesser_minion]

EDIT: Also, what's preventing the wizards from getting together to share/trade/buy spells off of each other? Or better yet, what if I could get spells from my organization "The worship center of insert arcana diety here"?


Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

[Latronis]

Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

So in otherwords you want to remove the Wizarding from the Wizard.

[Ashtagon]

Each spell is unique to the gift of one magic user - when you learn a spell, you actually invent a version of your own. Reading someone else's lab notes doesn't help you, because your magical gift may be completely different.

So you have to re-invent every spell you want.

And each spell comprises a selection of various sigils deliberately designed to break the mortal mind. In order to avoid going utterly insane, each and every wizard spends hours in preparation, building up psychic defences which only work for them against the horrors within their own mind.

At this point, you have created something mechanically indistinguishable from the sorcerer.

[lesser_minion]

At this point, you have created something mechanically indistinguishable from the sorcerer.

Fluff. Is. Mutable. There is no reason for what I described not to be a wizard. Nor has it lost 'wizardry'.

Having each spell developed tailored solely to a particular wizard's magical gift? Not a problem. Assuming that absolutely anyone can become a wizard with no need for any sort of magical talent whatsoever? Fluff. Nightmare.

Wizards suck in any event.

[Elves-as-People]

Thanks for the suggestions Lesser_minion... I like 'em.