Help with massive battle

[Gamerlord]

Ok so the PCs are about to participate in a massive battle, they just arrived at the good-guys HQ for the battle, got informed on what was about to happen, and session ends.


Some more details:

Basically, the battlefield is this desert/mountain/canyon/sea region

The statistics are:

Good guys:
A prince of a nearby kingdom, commander of Calvary, has helped PCs in past, NG human male fighter 7.

General of the army,LG male dwarf cleric 4/fighter 6/ wizard 2.
50 lvl 3 elf warriors on horseback, under the prince's command.
1000 lvl 1 warriors, typical human warriors, longsword and shield.
600 archers, dwarves, more like axe throwers, lvl 1 warriors.
20 lvl 2 wizards, halflings.
25 Lvl 2 elf warriors on griffions
Lvl 5 LG paladin elf commanding the naval forces
4 warships with full crew, all armed with arrows for soldiers, daggers for rowers

Evil guys:
Old black dragon, leads goblinoids and orcs, hiding in the mountains
Devil-worshiping NE elf sorcerer 8, hidden in canyons, commands devils.
LE human ex-paladin 6/cleric 2/ blackguard 6, commands undead, charging directly towards good guys. Wields a dark artifact that greatly empowers his control over undead.
NE orc Barbarian 2/rouge 6/dishonarable dread pirate, commands ships.
200 hobgoblins
300 orcs
500 goblin archers
600 kobolds
15 bone devils
5 barbed devils
3 ice devils
1 horned devil
30 bearded devils
300 skeletal warriors, just like that stat block in MM, but with longspears
2 warships with orc crew wielding battleaxes, pair of catapults with flaming ammo on each.

As you can tell, the forces of good are pretty much screwed, except for the fact that the PCs are on their side, and they have the griffons, as well as more warships, as well as the wizards, but those aren't particularly good advantages, except for the PCs. The prince has decided to be stupid good and alongside all his knights, charge directly at the blackguard and his undead army, the goblinoid, koboldinoid, and orcish army are marching directly towards the good guys HQ, with the black dragon back in the mountains, all the devils,except for the horned devil who is guarding his master in the canyons, are preparing for a devastating surprise attack on the east flank of the HQ, pirates are heading straight for the harbors to eliminate the warships, and to storm the west flank of the HQ. The dwarf general has a one-use-only magic device to contact several kings for help in an emergency, the problem? Vicious storms have made the only possible place to land knee-deep in the enemy territory, meaning that the landing zone will probably be under siege and anyone who attempts to march all the way there will probably be under heavy attack. The help could hit the landing zone in exactly 2 days.

Can anyone help me out with the following:

How likely is the prince and his knights to survive their little battle with the blackguard and his undead?
What tactics should the good guys use?
What tactics should the bad guys use?
What can my PCs do that is useful.
Which naval force is most likely to win?
Should the general call for help right away?

Thank you for your help.

[Gamerlord]

Some more details, good guy HQ is on a walled hill, with plenty of towers for archers, as well as hangars for griffins.

[jiriku]

Can anyone help me out with the following:

1. How likely is the prince and his knights to survive their little battle with the blackguard and his undead?
2. What tactics should the good guys use?
3. What tactics should the bad guys use?
4. What can my PCs do that is useful.
5. Which naval force is most likely to win?
6. Should the general call for help right away?

Thank you for your help.

It's actually not that bad. If the players can neutralize the dragon and the demons, then the good guys are only outnumbered 2:1. Clever use of tactics and terrain can overcome a 2:1 disadvantage. This looks like a cool epic battle in the making!

1. Two cool ways to do this. Either give the prince and his knights to the players to run the encounter and let them run him as he tries to pull his bacon out of the fire, or use your DM fiat to simply decide what happens. I recommend you preserve him if at all possible, because a force of mounted knights allows the players to attempt some interesting tactical options.

2. Not your problem. Tell the players to come up with their own tactics.

3. Offhand I'd say demons and undead as shock troops (because their morale won't break and their losses can be replaced), shielded from air assault by the goblin archers. Demons and skeletons are especially useful for an initial attack, because their damage reduction will almost entirely negate the impact of archery by the defenders. The evil force lacks cavalry, so the the goblinoids should be used to lock up important terrain features and engage/tie down anyone who attempts to outmaneuver the main force. The kobolds are not very useful, as they are inferior troops even in numbers, and if they break under heavy fire (very likely), then their retreat may inspire the orcs and goblins to run as well. Break them into smaller groups and use them as sappers, skirmishers to test enemy defenses, and raiders to attack enemy encampments and supplies at night.

4. Again, not your problem. They'll figure out something useful to do on their own, or they'll fail. It's their adventure, after all.

5. Make the evil naval force the slight favorite to win a naval battle, such that any significant help from the PCs will ensure that the good guys win the naval fight.

6. Let the players decide.

[Gamerlord]

The PCs aren't actually commanders, they are more like elite troops that came to assist.

[Oslecamo]

Cough my mob template for large numbers of mooks cough:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179

[Aron Times]

The last fight in Code Geass was a massive battle between the United Federation of Nations and the Holy Empire of Britannia, with thousands of troops on each side. However, the focus was primarily on the following:

UFN

1. Kallen
2. Gino
3. Anya
4. Ougi (on the Ikaruga, the UFN command ship)
5. Xingke

Britannia

1. Lelouch (on the Avalon, the Britannian command ship)
2. Jeremiah
3. Suzaku
4. C.C.

Have the extras fight in the background while the elite troops, i.e. the party, engage the the enemy's elite troops (the dragon and the high-level NPCs). The extras will be of no challenge at all to the elite troops, so once the elite battle ends, the battle is effectively won.

[awa]

i agree that for the most part just decide who wins a given exchange and let the pcs handle the boss characters considering how weak the armies are in comparison to the classed characters i would avoid bogging down the game by involving the pcs in pitched battle.

I might even suggest something like okay you fight for several minutes and then something important happens

[jiriku]

The PCs aren't actually commanders, they are more like elite troops that came to assist.

Yawn...boring! It's more fun to be Da Boss!

Seriously, have the players contribute to the strategy. You can find a way. Perhaps after his idiotic charge fails miserably, the knight-captain realizes that he's an idiot and seeks advice. Perhaps realizing that he too is an idiot for having allowed the tactically stupid charge, the general likewise gives the PCs an ear.

If you absolutely don't want the players to dictate the terms of engagement for their side, then DEFINITELY just handwave the overall battle as fast as humanly possible and rush to the part of the story where the players become the center of the action. Nothing is worse for a player than to show up expecting to play D&D, only to spend your evening sitting and watching while the DM tells a long story about his cool NPCs fighting each other and then rolls lots of dice against himself.

[Gamerlord]

BY not being commanders, I mean that they aren't in 100% control, they can give the general advice, but they aren't the full-on commanders.

What I am concerned about is that if they have 100% control they will make some stupid mistake, as they aren't very good with large-scale tactics, causing a complete TPK and the army being destroyed.

[Volkov]

The bad guys would sink the good guy's fleet at a distance despite the numerical advantage. The devils would all summon up reinforcements and use their spell like abilities to reduce the good guy's front lines into rubble, while many of their corpses are reanimated as undead. The Black dragon would then crush the remaining soldiers with a metabreath feat, turning his breath weapon into a cone that will incinerate pretty much all the remaining soldiers. The Griffons would then get Shot down by archers. And the players would die from a 300 or so foot fall assuming they are on the griffons. If not. Then the players get surrounded and butchered.

[Dimers]

What are the PCs' capabilities? Some of this is much more easily answered knowing that.

[Gamerlord]

They are 15th level.

[Volkov]

They are 15th level.

They would still get critical hitted to death once their supporting forces go kaput.

[Oslecamo]

Have the extras fight in the background while the elite troops, i.e. the party, engage the the enemy's elite troops (the dragon and the high-level NPCs). The extras will be of no challenge at all to the elite troops, so once the elite battle ends, the battle is effectively won.

You forget that Lulu used his mooks to great profit as cannon fodder to block the nukes being shot at his command ship, while Suzaku complained that he couldn't properly charge at the enemy because there were too many mooks on the way.

The batle turned when Lulu's volcano nuke wiped out most of the other mooks, allowing Suzaku to step forward with his crazy "disable nuke in a fraction of second" plan.

[Wereling]

They would still get critical hitted to death once their supporting forces go kaput.
They could still be used as a headhunter group to go after the more dangerous enemies. In particular, a rapid reaction force to deal with wherever the more powerful outsiders show up. For that matter, if they're smart enough to find out the terms of the Devil's service with a little pre-battle intel, they may be able to remove that whole component by forcing their opponent into violating the devil's contract.

[BRC]

When possible, avoid rolling for the other combatants. Heroes of Battle has good rules for this sort of thing, but here is the way I run this sort of encounter.
The Pc's start with 10 points, every round, attrition to their side from the enemy troops causes them to lose x points. Every time they kill an enemy, they gain 1 point. If it's an elite or otherwise special foe, it's worth more points.

When the point counter reaches 0, the PC's allies are routed from that skirmish. When it reaches an arbitrary number, lets say 20, the enemy forces are Routed.
Maybe let Pc's make charisma checks or perform (Oratory), clerics can expel Healing magic, bards can play their music to bolster the troops and stop the point drain, or even gain a few points as the PC's allies fight with renewed vigor and start inflicting heavy losses on the foes.

The idea is that the PC's allies and foes are fighting in the Background, but the PC's allies will lose without the PC's help. This system works best to refer to a smaller part of a bigger battle. When the PC's points reach 20, it's not that they won the battle, but that they completed a certain objective, or routed a certain part of the Enemies forces.

Depending on the starting conditions, the PC's can start with less points, the points can drain faster, ect. Maybe the PC's start with 20 points, and lose 3 a round until they kill an enemy commander, at which point they only lose 1 a round.

[Gamerlord]

They could still be used as a headhunter group to go after the more dangerous enemies. In particular, a rapid reaction force to deal with wherever the more powerful outsiders show up. For that matter, if they're smart enough to find out the terms of the Devil's service with a little pre-battle intel, they may be able to remove that whole component by forcing their opponent into violating the devil's contract.

The devil-worshiping sorcerer keeps a paper to remind him of the terms
of the deal,which are the following.

"The sorcerer shall always be ready to serve the pit fiend and any others who are allies with the pit fiend xartiada, in return, a suitable force of devils will always be at hand"

[Volkov]

They could still be used as a headhunter group to go after the more dangerous enemies. In particular, a rapid reaction force to deal with wherever the more powerful outsiders show up. For that matter, if they're smart enough to find out the terms of the Devil's service with a little pre-battle intel, they may be able to remove that whole component by forcing their opponent into violating the devil's contract.

They are devils working with a chaotic evil black dragon. I'm pretty sure these devils are somewhat crazy(er) already.

[Wereling]

The devil-worshiping sorcerer keeps a paper to remind him of the terms
of the deal,which are the following.

"The sorcerer shall always be ready to serve the pit fiend and any others who are allies with the pit fiend xartiada, in return, a suitable force of devils will always be at hand"

That's a REALLY open ended contract. I'm guessing your Sorcerer has a low WIS to make that kind of deal. That right there could easily make the difference. Devils are creatures of contract, but also deceit. If your players are able to get the terms of the contract, either pressuring the Pit Fiend's interests so that he is required to call in the marker or (more easily) simply making a deal for him to call the marker at an inopportune time could go quite a ways towards evening the battle.

It's all going to really depend on the Pit Fiend's ultimate goals. how important is the taking of this city to the Pit Fiend's purposes? If it's incidental, that sorcerer could be in real trouble...

[Volos]

Refer to Heroes of Battle. It has rules for victory points in battle. Each part of the battle or preperation for the battle earns the PCs victory points. If they reach a high enough victory point total, they will have a certian outcome. Low numbers means a defeat or undesirable outcome. Mid to High numbers means a victory but not a complete slaughter of the enemy. High to max numbers means either you made it too easy or the battle was a complete victory. I can't explain as well as the book can, but you get my idea right?

[Volkov]

That's a REALLY open ended contract. I'm guessing your Sorcerer has a low WIS to make that kind of deal. That right there could easily make the difference. Devils are creatures of contract, but also deceit. If your players are able to get the terms of the contract, either pressuring the Pit Fiend's interests so that he is required to call in the marker or (more easily) simply making a deal for him to call the marker at an inopportune time could go quite a ways towards evening the battle.

It's all going to really depend on the Pit Fiend's ultimate goals. how important is the taking of this city to the Pit Fiend's purposes? If it's incidental, that sorcerer could be in real trouble...

The Black Dragon could summon demons instead if the Pit fiend pulls. Heck, the black dragon alone could turn the good guys into smoldering corpses. And once the bad guys win at sea due to their long ranged fire power, they can unload reinforcements and bombard the ground troops. Really, once the sea battle is lost the thing becomes hopeless. Although the sea battle is pitifully small. (4 ships a fleet does not make.) Really I would have gone for a sea battle at least five times bigger, usually ten times larger, and twenty five times bigger at the most.

[Gamerlord]

That's a REALLY open ended contract. I'm guessing your Sorcerer has a low WIS to make that kind of deal. That right there could easily make the difference. Devils are creatures of contract, but also deceit. If your players are able to get the terms of the contract, either pressuring the Pit Fiend's interests so that he is required to call in the marker or (more easily) simply making a deal for him to call the marker at an inopportune time could go quite a ways towards evening the battle.

It's all going to really depend on the Pit Fiend's ultimate goals. how important is the taking of this city to the Pit Fiend's purposes? If it's incidental, that sorcerer could be in real trouble...


The Pit fiend is a sort of nemesis to the father of the aforementioned prince, and yeah, the sorcerer is a little on the loony side.

[Dimers]

I feel that the devils can cause way too much havoc unless there’s some reason they aren’t allowed to advance. The ordinary soldiers won’t have a breath of a chance against them. You can set the PCs to the task of defeating some devils, decide whatever you want to about the head-to-head charge, and then once the PCs are back you put them in charge of picking up the pieces … say, once both sides are badly bloodied and have retreated to defensive positions. That allows you to avoid TPK (total platoon kill?) by giving the PCs a fallback position.

Illusions and perception changes would utterly change the naval battle. Displacement effects, invisibility, a phantom force to just make the orcs turn tail and run, giving false commands to the crew in the voice of the pirate captain, darkness spell centered around the fire-flinger so nobody can aim ... Even one or two changes could ensure the victory there. Or heck, just have the good guys attack at night -- I mean, orcs’ darkvision doesn’t have enough range to make any use of the long-range attack then.

If the good guys know the nature of the antipaladin’s artifact, that simply begs for intervention. One good strike against that, and the enemy loses a couple hundred troops, possibly having to fight them themselves. If it can’t be destroyed, it can be stolen, disarmed, TKed away or what-have-you, or just kill the antipaladin and take it. Likewise, if they know of the sorcerer, eliminating him/her could allow the devils to leave without taking part in the battle.

I typically strategize very defensively, but with the PCs at the level they are, there’s not much need. They can take out the warships in case the general feels the need to call for aid, then focus on the big nasties: devils, dragon, artifact. Maybe drop a bit of AoE on the charging horde while they’re on their way. If the dwarven general has an accurate concept of the PCs’ capabilities, he’ll probably save the one-shot item for later. One way to get the good guys to stop being stupid is for the PCs to provide magic traps and defenses back at the base, encouraging retreat over rage.

As for bad guys’ tactics, if they’re all working together amiably, I recommend a synchronized strike shortly after the good guys march out. Use the dragon as transport for the devils; it can drop a couple on the ships and the rest at HQ. The sorcerer would demand defense whether or not s/he knows the PCs are so much higher in level, but I think the best defense would be hiding disguised as a mook at the back of the army.

[Wereling]

The Pit fiend is a sort of nemesis to the father of the aforementioned prince, and yeah, the sorcerer is a little on the loony side.

That being the case, I'd use the PCs as a headhunting/rapid reaction group, keeping the "pressuring the Pit Fiend's interests" in my back pocket as a last-ditch GTH plan if things start going really terribly.

[Volkov]

The Pit fiend is a sort of nemesis to the father of the aforementioned prince, and yeah, the sorcerer is a little on the loony side.

Is the Black dragon manipulating the prince in any way? There is a reason as to why old myths say that the tongue of the dragon lets you win any argument. And that is because your average dragon will invest quite a bit in diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate, augmented by their great charisma scores.

Heck the dragon could single-handedly rout the entire good army by making a good intimidation check, assisted by his frightful presence. The bulk of the good guys are far too low in level to win against the dragon, and heck, maybe the PC's will run too.

[Gamerlord]

The artifact is....a risky one....the soul of a powerful lich is in it, the antipaladin managed to figure out a way to channel its power, destroy the artifact, and you release the lichs soul, and its phylactery is intact, hidden centuries deep underground, this lich not only has many connections, but is an epic-level wizard, releasing him would be....costly.

EDIT: No, unless you count goading him into attacking the blackguard with a sending

[Volkov]

The artifact is....a risky one....the soul of a powerful lich is in it, the antipaladin managed to figure out a way to channel its power, destroy the artifact, and you release the lichs soul, and its phylactery is intact, hidden centuries deep underground, this lich not only has many connections, but is an epic-level wizard, releasing him would be....costly.

EDIT: No, unless you count goading him into attacking the blackguard with a sending

Is that to me?

Really a black dragon in his position would probably be pulling all the strings. After all they can make sense out of Xoorvintaal, which canon tells us is a horribly complicated mess of a chess-like game that even intelligent outsiders can't really make sense out of it.

[Gamerlord]

Is that to me?

Really a black dragon in his position would probably be pulling all the strings. After all they can make sense out of Xoorvintaal, which canon tells us is a horribly complicated mess of a chess-like game that even intelligent outsiders can't really make sense out of it.

Yes, that edit is to you.

[Volkov]

Yes, that edit is to you.

Any way, what's stopping the dragon from using his large amount of points in intimidate to scare off the good guy's entire army?

[Gamerlord]

He isn't much a scare-your-pants-off-guy, plus, he is a paranoid,delusional,coward.

[Volkov]

He isn't much a scare-your-pants-off-guy, plus, he is a paranoid,delusional,coward.

He still has a frightful presence, that would allow him to send the entire army running for the hills by flying above them. And if he's as sexually prolific as your usual male black dragon, he probably has an veritable army of half-dragon children of incredible(ly disturbing) diversity, at his beck and call.

[Gamerlord]

He doesn't like the idea of giving people his powers, besides, he has done some things that rather anger the black dragon community.

[Wereling]

He isn't much a scare-your-pants-off-guy, plus, he is a paranoid,delusional,coward.

Hah. the other options (if your PCs are deceitful enough) are to make him THINK the marker's been called. Don't know what the party makeup is though, so I don't know if that's even possible.

[Volkov]

He doesn't like the idea of giving people his powers, besides, he has done some things that rather anger the black dragon community.
If he's an outcast and he's living in presumably warm mountains, he'd have been killed by a Red dragon Or Silver Dragon. The Red Dragon would kill him because Black Dragons aren't weak enough for Red dragons to allow to sulk out sight and mind like Ethereal dragons and White Dragons, but aren't strong enough for a Red Dragon to use much caution in driving him out. The Silver Dragon would kill him because he has the opposite alignment, represents a potential threat to the living things in the area, is weak enough to dispatch without too much injury, and it would look good to bahumat.

[Gamerlord]

He doesn't live in these mountains, he was originally gathering up his troops in a frozen mountain, the mountains are just his HQ for the battle.

[Volkov]

Hah. the other options (if your PCs are deceitful enough) are to make him THINK the marker's been called. Don't know what the party makeup is though, so I don't know if that's even possible.

I don't think the dragon is a part of the pact. No sane pit fiend is going to trust a chaotic evil dragon. Especially not one who has a breath weapon the pit fiend is not immune to and who's fortitude save is too high for the infamously lethal pit fiend venom to reliably kill. (Secondary Damage: Kill poor SOB who failed his saving throw to death until he is no longer alive)

[Volkov]

He doesn't live in these mountains, he was originally gathering up his troops in a frozen mountain, the mountains are just his HQ for the battle.

And He hasn't encountered the Resident white dragons why? Of course he might have killed the resident white dragon and might have his remains as an undead servant. Or worse, made the White dragon his female dog.

[Gamerlord]

He was rather cautious, the few white dragons he encountered were younglings stupid enough to mess with him.

[Wereling]

I don't think the dragon is a part of the pact. No sane pit fiend is going to trust a chaotic evil dragon. Especially not one who has a breath weapon the pit fiend is not immune to and who's fortitude save is too high for the infamously lethal pit fiend venom to reliably kill. (Secondary Damage: Kill poor SOB who failed his saving throw to death until he is no longer alive)
If he's not a part of the pact, he doesn't control the devils. Whoever does may be able to be convinced that the forces are needed elsewhere. At the minimum this could cause confusion and disruption, at the best the demons may be removed from battle entirely.

[Gamerlord]

I will just say that the sorcerer knows something about the city nobody else does.

[Volkov]

If he's not a part of the pact, he doesn't control the devils. Whoever does may be able to be convinced that the forces are needed elsewhere. At the minimum this could cause confusion and disruption, at the best the demons may be removed from battle entirely.

Not demons, Devils. Any ways, if the Dragon has any summoning spells, he could summon or call demons forth to aid him as a back up if the devils are pulled back.

To the OP: Which Archdevil does the Pit Fiend serve? That can determine alot. Bel, for example, would most certainly not approve of drawing resources away from the blood war.

[Gamerlord]

He doesn't actually serve a archdevil...he serves a...higher...power...

[Wereling]

Not demons, Devils. Any ways, if the Dragon has any summoning spells, he could summon or call demons forth to aid him as a back up if the devils are pulled back.
He can, but being spell summoned they won't be as numerous, won't be around as long, and may be less powerful. At the very least it causes him to expend additional resources he might otherwise use to overcome the defenders at a critical juncture.

[Volkov]

He doesn't actually serve a archdevil...he serves a...higher...power...

What higher power? Asmodeus can boot gods from hell if they displease him and he can alter layers to his will. He is the power in hell. And that small remnant of the Ancient baatorians aren't even contenders for that title, the mightiest amongst them was Zargon, and he was a CR 16 guy. Though he had a ridiculous regeneration rate. (50? What in the hells would he need that much for?)

[Gamerlord]

In the beginning the the creation of the world there were six elemental gods,before they made all the other gods, thats what history claims, there is actually a seventh, a god of blood, he is so powerful that the lucky few who even know of his existence don't dare mess with him

[Volkov]

In the beginning the the creation of the world there were six elemental gods,before they made all the other gods, thats what history claims, there is actually a seventh, a god of blood, he is so powerful that the lucky few who even know of his existence don't dare mess with him

Can he mess with Pandorym when his mind and body are reunited? Who can casually destroy an entire cosmology? If not, he doesn't impress me.

[Gamerlord]

At the moment he is imprisoned, but asmodues desperately wants to be on his good side so he can get the unholy abominations of life on his side the blood god makes by thinking, which he can do while imprisoned. He had to be imprisoned because when the elemental gods tried to figure out what should be in this world, he didn't want a universe at all,nor did he like the fact the other gods were still breathing

[Volkov]

At the moment he is imprisoned, but asmodues desperately wants to be on his good side so he can get the unholy abominations of life on his side the blood god makes by thinking, which he can do while imprisoned. He had to be imprisoned because when the elemental gods tried to figure out what should be in this world, he didn't want a universe at all,nor did he like the fact the other gods were still breathing
Infinitesimally pieces of pandorym's mind are as powerful of elder brains.

[Gamerlord]

The blood god can instantly mutate creatures by changing their bloods,right down to their DNA, he can crossbreed them with anything, he has even made half-constructs.

[jiriku]

BY not being commanders, I mean that they aren't in 100% control, they can give the general advice, but they aren't the full-on commanders.

What I am concerned about is that if they have 100% control they will make some stupid mistake, as they aren't very good with large-scale tactics, causing a complete TPK and the army being destroyed.

If you aren't willing to allow the PCs to fail and aren't willing to see the army of good destroyed, then I wouldn't worry overly much about strategy. Just describe some cool stuff and give the players a few set-piece battles for them to enjoy, set against the backdrop of the larger conflict. Spend more time worrying about the tactics of the bad guys than the good, because it's the bad guys' tactics the players will have to deal with.

[Volkov]

Tiny cracks in the prison of pandorym's mind cause the planes to begin to break apart from the astral plane and other transit planes and from each other. And at the peak of this sign, nothing gets into another plane, and nothing gets out. No souls will be allowed to the after life, all the summoned creatures will never return home, teleportation is no longer possible, gods cannot speak to their worshipers, any manifesting ghost is presumably cleaved in half, any magic that relies on an extra-planar source is broken, amongst other things. Pandorym's mind is that powerful. I think it's even vaguely implied that pandorym is from a place worse than the far realm.

[Gamerlord]

Tiny cracks in the prison of pandorym's mind cause the planes to begin to break apart from the astral plane and other transit planes and from each other. And at the peak of this sign, nothing gets into another plane, and nothing gets out. No souls will be allowed to the after life, all the summoned creatures will never return home, teleportation is no longer possible, gods cannot speak to their worshipers, any manifesting ghost is presumably cleaved in half, any magic that relies on an extra-planar source is broken, amongst other things. Pandorym's mind is that powerful. I think it's even vaguely implied that pandorym is from a place worse than the far realm.

The looser the chains on the blood god get, the closer the planes head into a collision course with each other.

[Volkov]

The looser the chains on the blood god get, the closer the planes head into a collision course with each other.

At least somethings would survive that. In pandorym's case, pretty much every sapient who drops dead's soul becomes a wraith, which can be inferred as typically, when a soul can't reach the afterlife in D&D and it's not trapped it turns into a wraith. And with 150,000 people dying on a daily basis on an planet with earth's human population, and with a world like greyhawk's much higher sapient population and greater amounts of violence and more disease ridden world increasing the amount dead per day on Oerth alone by maybe a thousandfold or more, that is a lot of wraiths.

20,000,000,000 skeletons may be bad. But 150,000,000 wraiths a day without having to create spawn makes zombie apocalypse movies look quaint in comparison.

[Gamerlord]

Something that survives won't for long, I'll just say that planes don't mix.

[Volkov]

Something that survives won't for long, I'll just say that planes don't mix.

One word, Tardigrades. Water bears are such great survivors they'd make darwin blush.

Seriously, you can toss them out in outer space for ten days and they'll be fine when you pick them up/

[Gamerlord]

Besides, whenever two planes connect, a abomination is spawned, if all planes mixed, something stronger then anything could be spawned. And the planar anhillation basically sucks the universe in and implodes on itself.

[Volkov]

Also, why are the fleets so small? For something with the term massive battle, I'd expect a thousand times more units being used.

[Gamerlord]

The storms destroyed all the orginal ships, these ones were rushed in, now with the storms at full power, they are the only fleet they have. The massive battle would be on the ground.

[Volkov]

The storms destroyed all the orginal ships, these ones were rushed in, now with the storms at full power, they are the only fleet they have. The massive battle would be on the ground.

Still, 5000 total men. That's a skirmish by any historic standards.

[Gamerlord]

I consider it massive, by fantasy standards, and besides, its the only feasible way in D&D terms.

[Volkov]

I consider it massive, by fantasy standards, and besides, its the only feasible way in D&D terms.

By fantasy standards? The battle of helm's deep had tens of thousands of uruk-hai. The battle of minas tirith had hundreds of thousands, if not millions of orcs. And the Battle at the black gate definitely had at least a million orcs.

[Volkov]

Plus I've managed battles between billions of units before. Though I divided them up into more manageable chunks first.

[awa]

I think you need some kind of limiter on the enemy force it looks like the villains will likely be able to destroy the good army so easily. even the relatively weak devils can just teleport in and wipe out large sections of the army retreating if they see the pcs to attack a diffrent section of the army and allow their commanders to deal with the pcs. this fight is all about the pcs it might be easier on the pcs if the army stayed home so the pcs wouldn't be tied down trying to defend them.

I mean one barbed devil could rout all those level 1 melee characters by him self they will likely need 20s to hit then they need to deal more then 10 dam not easy for a level 1 charecter with a long sword and then they take d8+6 back regardless of whether they hurt him or not.

30 bearded devil teleoport right next to those soft wizards wipe out the lot of them in one round

the best strategy for the forces of good is to stay home they are stupidly out classed in this fight their just not relevant against enemy this far out of their weight class.

[Gamerlord]

Well they can call for help as I mentioned before, but the only place help can land is deep behind the bad guys defenses.

[Gamerlord]

Plus I've managed battles between billions of units before. Though I divided them up into more manageable chunks first.

I'm concerned that I will just end up getting confused and mixed-up between the troops with such numbers, slowing down the game.

[Gamerlord]

If he's not a part of the pact, he doesn't control the devils. Whoever does may be able to be convinced that the forces are needed elsewhere. At the minimum this could cause confusion and disruption, at the best the demons may be removed from battle entirely.

The sorcerer controls the devils.

[Volkov]

I'm concerned that I will just end up getting confused and mixed-up between the troops with such numbers, slowing down the game.

Modern day armies have that problem, which is why we divide troops into groups like battalions. If you treat each group of a certain number as a singular entity it becomes much more manageable.

[Gamerlord]

Modern day armies have that problem, which is why we divide troops into groups like battalions. If you treat each group of a certain number as a singular entity it becomes much more manageable.

I see, maybe I will boost the numbers.

[Gametime]

Tiny cracks in the prison of pandorym's mind cause the planes to begin to break apart from the astral plane and other transit planes and from each other. And at the peak of this sign, nothing gets into another plane, and nothing gets out. No souls will be allowed to the after life, all the summoned creatures will never return home, teleportation is no longer possible, gods cannot speak to their worshipers, any manifesting ghost is presumably cleaved in half, any magic that relies on an extra-planar source is broken, amongst other things. Pandorym's mind is that powerful. I think it's even vaguely implied that pandorym is from a place worse than the far realm.

You're coming off as kind of a tool, here, bro. It's his cosmology. If he says that so-and-so elder god of insatiable destruction is a threat, then it's a threat. You don't need to get into a giant pissing contest about how it's not as impressive as Pandorym. Nor do you need to criticize the conventions of his battle, or his characters, or ask why he didn't do THIS because it's so OBVIOUSLY a superior choice. It's his campaign. He's asking for advice on how to proceed, not criticism on what he's already done.

On topic...if you'd like to actually simulate the battle, you'd be well served using some other ruleset. D&D isn't very good for large-scale battles. If you'd rather stay within D&D rules, I'd second those people who have suggested focusing on what the PCs do and using DM fiat to determine the outcome of everything else.

[Gamerlord]

That is the thing, I can't DM fiat what I am not sure will happen, I cant exactly tell which side would probably win the Naval battle, or the stupid good vs. blackguard fight, etc.

[BRC]

That is the thing, I can't DM fiat what I am not sure will happen, I cant exactly tell which side would probably win the Naval battle, or the stupid good vs. blackguard fight, etc.
So let the Players determine that outcome.

Here, idea for the Naval battle.
The Orcish ships are powerful juggernauts, and their catapults give them a great advantage. If they should defeat the elven ships, they will use their catapults to support their land forces from the Sea.

However, a defense has been prepared against this. Legend tells of a Shrine near the shore that, if the correct rituals are done, will call the elements themselves to defend the land from Evil. However, the Dragon is aware of this, and has sent a force to secure and destroy the shrine.
As an optional goal, the PC's can try to retake the shrine and guard a group of druids as they perform the rituals. If this is successful, water elementals appear and begin attacking the Orkish Ships, meanwhile Earth elementals rise from the ground to aid in the land battle.


Another such goal, the Blackguard has killed many, many people in his time, that's alot of angry ghosts that want him dead. However, he's protected in some way. If the PC's eliminate whatever's protecting him, Instant Karma ensues as the ghosts of all the people he's killed materialize and tear him to shreds.

[Gamerlord]

And if the players decide " The good guys win all the battles, sweet now we have a ton of support." ?

[BRC]

And if the players decide " The good guys win all the battles, sweet now we have a ton of support." ?
It's not a matter of decision, it's a matter of Success.
The players have the opportunity to TRY to retake the shrine. They may not succeed, the enemy will certainly defend it well. It's very likely they will be forced to fall back and try their luck in standard warfare.

Even if they Do secure the shrine, it's not a guaranteed victory. More support shows up yes, but is it necessarily enough to win the battle. It's up to you, the DM, to decide how much these things help. Maybe the ground boils over into earth elementals which swarm the enemies, and maybe a small number shows up and distracts the enemy for 5 minutes until they are torn to shreds.
Maybe the ghosts kill the Blackguard, and maybe they just slow him down slightly.
The important thing, is that the players feel that, if victory is achieved, they are responsible for it. They think "We retook the shrine that helped us win the battle, We Held the Dorlanner Bridge long enough for the Dwarves to bring their war machines across the river. We used that Scroll of weather control to give our griffon riders cloud cover to defend them from enemy arrows, We convinced the leader of the Hobgoblins to betray the Dragon. When the General fell, We Rallied the cavalry for the charge that broke their lines."
The point is, rather than simply send the Pc's into battle and have them chop their way through the enemy, give them specific objectives that help them achieve victory. PC's chopping through 200 orcs is boring. PC's doing something that causes 200 orcs to get chopped to pieces is awesome.

[Gamerlord]

I can imagine some things for them to do already, the problem is that whatever they do keeps them away from another important piece of the battle that could end with the good guys getting utterly crushed, they hold the east flank against the devils? The west flank gets crushed by the orc pirates! etc.

[BRC]

I can imagine some things for them to do already, the problem is that whatever they do keeps them away from another important piece of the battle that could end with the good guys getting utterly crushed, they hold the east flank against the devils? The west flank gets crushed by the orc pirates! etc.
That's called Decision Making. And it's a good thing, they must decide whether the East or West flank is more important to hold. Yes, maybe the Demons are held off but the Orcs break through, It was that or having the Demons break through while the Orcs are held off. If you want the good guys to win the battle, you're the DM, you can make that happen, and you can make the PC's feel responsible for it. You're Holding the east flank, well lookit that, you held it long enough for the Sun to come up, the Orcs are blinded now, the West flank holds.

Here, let me ask These questions, answer them, and we can start talking specifics.
1) Do you want the Good Guys to win?
2) How willing are you to let them lose?

[Gamerlord]

1.I would like it
2. I am sorta willing, the roles of the named NPCS can be replaced, but it could set a situation in the campaign the PCs are grossly unprepared for.

[BRC]

1.I would like it
2. I am sorta willing, the roles of the named NPCS can be replaced, but it could set a situation in the campaign the PCs are grossly unprepared for.
Good, that's what I thought.
Now, let me tell you what your Ideal outcome is: The Players feel that they just grasped Victory from the jaws of defeat. You, as the DM, Knew THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO SO ALL ALONG. And you smile, sit back, stroke your white longhaired cat, and plot what your playthings players are going to do next.
Provide them with 3 doors, tell them something different rests behind each, but put the same result behind them all. The fail condition should be that they don't, or can't open any of the doors.
The great thing about massive battles, is that the PC's have no way to tell when you're making stuff up for the purpose of the story. If you say "The East flank has fallen, Oh No!", they don't know that you only had it fall so you could let the PC's rally the survivors in a counterattack. If the PC's need to kill the Blackguard before their line breaks, you can have the line hold on exactly as long as you need it too.

Here, a little Assignment for you. Come up with 5 ways for the forces of Good to win the Battle. Don't be afraid to make stuff up. Just because the PC's wern't told that a powerful Gold dragon makes his home in a nearby mountain, and can be woken from his centuries long slumber to aid in the battle if a Gong is rung by a noble paladin at Sunrise on top of a certain hill dosn't mean it isn't true. Just because the PC's don't know that there has been alot of grumbling amongst the Orcs and Hobgoblins, both of whom may be willing to betray their commanders, dosn't mean it isn't true.

5 ways for Good to win, each should succeed because the PC's do something. Don't feel you need to go into detail just yet, for now, simply Brainstorm.

[Gamerlord]

hmmmm......

The enemy has a series of towers that allow them to see pretty much anything,and alert others with sendings . Destruction of those towers would pretty much make them almost blind.

If the pirates are defeated, the friendly ships can be used as transports to allow a surprise attack.


A troll tribe lives near the area the orcs are currently camping, goading them into disturbing the trolls might provide a necessary distraction.


A kobold has been developing sorcerer powers, and if he were to be forced to display them the kobolds might decide to abandon the cause and serve him, creating a rather distracting third side.


Trick the dragon into appearing on the battle field and slay him.

[BRC]

hmmmm......

The enemy has a series of towers that allow them to see pretty much anything,and alert others with sendings . Destruction of those towers would pretty much make them almost blind.

If the pirates are defeated, the friendly ships can be used as transports to allow a surprise attack.


A troll tribe lives near the area the orcs are currently camping, goading them into disturbing the trolls might provide a necessary distraction.


A kobold has been developing sorcerer powers, and if he were to be forced to display them the kobolds might decide to abandon the cause and serve him, creating a rather distracting third side.


Trick the dragon into appearing on the battle field and slay him.

PERFECT! Now we're cooking with Dragonfire.

Alright,All those conditions work very well because they are believable, and because it's easy for the PC's to come up with them themselves (making them feel responsible). Now, all you need to do is give the PC's ways to achieve these goals. Let's say, 2 methods for each goal to be achieved is a good starting point. I'll provide one solution for each, I want you to come up with 2 more.

Some of the Dwarves working for the PC's are trained as Sappers armed with Stoneeater acid (From Arms and Equipment if I remember correctly. A very very powerful acid that only works on Stone). If the Sappers can be brought to the Tower base, they know how to strategically apply the Acid and collapse the tower.

A shift in the Wind has won and lost naval battles before. Currently, the Orcs have a caster controlling the Wind (This takes all his concentration). Wiping him out will cause the Orcs to lose this advantage, allowing the Elven warships to achieve victory.

The Trolls have built a ring of Statues near their camps to mark their territory, if anybody crosses past the Statues, it's considered a challenge. The Orcs don't know this.

One of the Wizards returns from a Skirmish, saying they felt the presence of a Caster amongst the Kobolds defending a certain point. Attacking that Point will force the Sorcerer to use his powers.

The Dragon distrusts the Sorceror and his devils, having once gotten the worse end of a deal with a devil long ago. He already suspects the Devils intend to betray him. The PC's can use illusions to make it appear that the Devils are attacking his troops, causing him to fly out and investigate.

Okay, I really need to get my Econ homework done now.

[Gamerlord]

Thank you!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

They are 15th level.A challenge using the exact same enemy/ally setup can be anywhere from trivial to impossible for different level 15 PCs; so what's the party makeup?

[Gamerlord]

Human bard
elf druid
Halfing ninja
Warforged barbarian

[Gamerlord]

For the love of- great, my group has been forced to postpone for a while :smallfrown:, however, I think I know what I can do while they're gone....