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View Full Version : Which is more important: DM, System, or Setting?



ken-do-nim
2009-11-06, 07:24 PM
I've found that for me, the most important things in joining a game are in this order:

DM
System
Setting

In other words, if I hear that a DM who I happen to know is really good has an opening at his* gaming table, I'm there if I have the time, regardless of the specifics of what he's running.

*using masculine pronoun because I've only seen a female DM once ever

How about you?

Kallisti
2009-11-06, 07:26 PM
1. DM
2. Setting
3. System

Really, a good DM is the key to a good game. You can't have a very good game with a poor DM.

Setting over system because I can adapt to new systems pretty quickly, and there are very few systems so bad that a good DM and good setting can't make them playable.

Aron Times
2009-11-06, 07:26 PM
A good DM can make a bad system and a bland setting work. A bad DM can make a good system and a rich setting fail.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-06, 07:32 PM
DM
...
...
Setting
..System

Now, the issue is the three are interconnected. Certain systems require certain types of settings, and most DMs will play any setting with certain flavors. A WoD DM in D&D will probably still have pretty complicated and important politics, and a 4.x game has to be mid-to-high magic. But yes, DM is key. Anything else is second to that.

AshDesert
2009-11-06, 07:38 PM
My order of importance is:

DM
Setting
System

I like trying out new systems and play the old familiars, and I haven't played a system yet that I actively disliked (a couple that simply weren't to my tastes, but still weren't bad), so the system isn't all that important to me.

Also, I'm a huge lore-whore. I love a rich setting, if only because it allows me to think of all sorts of new character possibilities, and I actually LIKE history (whether real of fictional). Plus, there are a couple of settings out there like Eberron that are just unbelievably cool to play in. But, overall, I like it the most whenever the DM or one of the people at the table actually has a good homebrew setting made, simply because it's completely new and isn't all over the internets.

And, of course, the most important element in any game is that you have a good DM (and players, I won't play a game of other people in it are known jerks). Most often I end up in the chair, however most of the guys in my local group are good at it too. A good DM can flesh out a boring setting with more detail (i.e. default DnD) and a bad DM can make a rich setting seem bland by just using the basic info and not delving into any of the details.

Saph
2009-11-06, 07:46 PM
DM
...
...
Setting
..System

I'd agree with this one, and add another factor.

1. DM
2. Group
3. Setting
4. System

Really, if I like the DM and the group, I'm willing to put up with just about anything else.

Jarawara
2009-11-06, 08:00 PM
1. DM
2. Group
3. Setting


I don't even put System on the list. Heck, my online game pretty much ditched 'system' years ago, and we've been doing fine.

I do consider Setting to be important (so it's a close third, not a distant third). The wrong setting just makes for a dull (or too bizarre) game for me.

The only change I'd consider making to the list above, is that perhaps Group goes first over DM. Or maybe they're equal. Or maybe, they only work when Group and DM match up well together. If they don't match, Fail occurs.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-11-06, 08:03 PM
1. DM
2. Group
3. Setting
...
4. System

ken-do-nim
2009-11-06, 08:09 PM
You guys are all awesome. I just happen to know lots of people where you say you are running version x of D&D and they are like, "When do I show up" and then you say you are running something else and they don't want to come.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-06, 08:14 PM
I've found that for me, the most important things in joining a game are in this order:

DM
System
Setting

In other words, if I hear that a DM who I happen to know is really good has an opening at his* gaming table, I'm there if I have the time, regardless of the specifics of what he's running.

*using masculine pronoun because I've only seen a female DM once ever

How about you?

DM and setting kinda go hand in hand, but yeah, my order:
DM
System
Setting

oxinabox
2009-11-06, 08:26 PM
DM
System
Setting

If your got the DM right, then He Will make an awesome setting, therefore it's not really a factor.
If the DM isn't good enough to make an awesome setting, then well it's a hard choice, but i would say io want a system thats good, so it's not to tough onm the poor dm.
then again, not beingable to make a awesome setting doesn't imply you can't deal with complex systems

Lvl45DM!
2009-11-06, 08:40 PM
Group
DM





That is all
Seriously the group makes the game for me as a DM and me as a player. If all you do is throw orcs at us yes it wont be as a good as it could be but a great group will overcome that

Volos
2009-11-06, 08:42 PM
System
DM
Setting

In my opinon, a great DM can't make a crappy system work. That doesn't mean I don't like how he works, it just means I can't have fun with a crappy system. Disclaimer: I have played alot of D20 and D10 systems and a couple of Tri-Stat games, I haven't played a system I haven't liked... but I've heard horror stories. So for me, System is paramount. That being said, I'm very open to almost any system. I just rather avoid bad homebrew rules or broken systems. I roleplay for the interaction and story more then min/maxing my character.
Having a skilled DM is my number two because there is no way a bad DM can make a good game, unless you like having a fractured storyline and badly matched encounters. I once had a DM who had us defend a walled city from an invasion from a Zombie army 15,000 strong at level 5. I think he was bored that day.
Setting is still important to me, but it comes in third because if you have a good system and a great DM, the setting doesn't matter as much or will fall into place as a result of good DMing.

aje8
2009-11-06, 10:15 PM
DM-A good DM makes everything better
System
Group

sentaku
2009-11-06, 10:33 PM
1. Group - the players make the game, the best DM with players that don't care makes a poor game.
2. DM - a good DM knows how to roll with the players.
3. Setting/System - these tend to complement each other, as you need a setting that supports the system and a system that works in the setting.

Doc Roc
2009-11-06, 11:22 PM
DM and Group, System, Setting.

A good DM can make a stock setting tons of fun. A bad DM can ruin anything.
Likewise with a group.

A good system can make a stock setting vibrant, support your ideas elegantly in the mechanics, and supply you with fast and fun gameplay. A bad system can shatter an entire playgroup.

Setting....
I'm not a narrativist. I'm not a simulationist. I'm not a gamist. I'm a gamer. I will never know your world is interesting unless you make it interesting. I will never know it's dull unless you make it dull.

Pika...
2009-11-06, 11:25 PM
I've found that for me, the most important things in joining a game are in this order:

DM
System
Setting

In other words, if I hear that a DM who I happen to know is really good has an opening at his* gaming table, I'm there if I have the time, regardless of the specifics of what he's running.

*using masculine pronoun because I've only seen a female DM once ever

How about you?


For me it is DM > Setting > System.

However, by setting I mean that the DM actually worked on it himself, hence there is originality and creativity involved. This is really the case sadly, so the default for me is DM > System.

sofawall
2009-11-06, 11:44 PM
DM
System
Setting


I agree with this order.

Akal Saris
2009-11-07, 12:02 AM
I'd say for me it's:

Group
DM
System
Setting

Really, I've had very few DMs that I considered to be 'good', but it's still something that I find very important. If both the DM and group are good, I don't really mind the system or setting that much - if the DM and group are both unsatisfying, then I don't care if it's 3.5 Birthright, because it's not worth the time. I'm definitely a rules monkey though, so if it came down to a setting I liked or a rules system I liked, I'd probably go with the rules system.

Draz74
2009-11-07, 12:43 AM
I'd say


Group
DM
Genre
...
System
Setting


Within a genre, I tend to be ok regardless of setting. But some genres just turn me off.

Jarawara
2009-11-07, 12:58 AM
I'm going to make a modification to my answer. I had listed DM before Group, though it was neck and neck. But actually, the answer depends on the exact wording of the question.

What I look for to have a good GAME?

1. DM
2. Group
3. Setting

With System a distance fourth, if at all.

But if I am looking for a good GAMING EXPERIENCE?

1. Group.

The rest is optional. In fact, some of my best gaming experiences came with DM's who were most pathetically underequipped for the job. Of course, part of the experience was talking about how goofy it was afterwards, but hey, as long as a group of friends had fun playing a game, what more do we need? We'll have fun telling the tale of how the DM misunderstood the flying rules, ruled that dispel magic is permanent, railroaded us into talking with the orcs, then railroaded us into fighting the very same orcs, then misinterpreted the flying rules *differently*, because he wanted his DMPC to fly even after the dispel magic had been cast.... yeah, memories like that still bring a smile to my face.

You see, I am one of those types that can tolerate the bedlam in the background, if I can concentrate on a good game in front of me. I've even had bad groups, but with a good DM (including a good story), I can have fun, and ignore the idiots around me. But while that is a good GAME, it's hardly a good gaming experience. To have the gaming experience, to have the fun night, the group is the most important thing. The DM... meh. He's just the guy at the end of the table. He's optional.

Of course, if I actually have the good group, *and* a good DM, then I'll enjoy a good gaming experience, as well as play a good game. Two for the price of one, Bonus!

Gralamin
2009-11-07, 01:17 AM
DM >> System == Setting
I adapt to different Systems and settings easily, but its the DM that makes the game. If I were to include Group, it'd be...

DM == Group >> System == Setting

Now, despite that, there are some Systems and Settings I dislike playing in (Pathfinder and Forgotten Realms, for example), and those can ruin games for me. However, the wrong DM or the wrong group can wreck it a lot more easily, and thus the ordering.

AslanCross
2009-11-07, 01:39 AM
I think a good group will typically follow having a good DM. The players may be quirky and all, but a good DM can help the group gel despite their differences. Now there are times when a group's habits become untenable; a good DM will know when to back out.

I think both system and setting will depend on the consensus of the players and the DM. I think it will ultimately depend on the DM to choose the appropriate system and setting that will meet the players' expectations.

That said, I find that the system will be more important than the setting. Setting is mostly just a matter of taste, and as such I think it goes last.

Dienekes
2009-11-07, 02:00 AM
You guys are all awesome. I just happen to know lots of people where you say you are running version x of D&D and they are like, "When do I show up" and then you say you are running something else and they don't want to come.

I feel your pain. I have a player who only plays Star Wars campaigns.

Not sci fi, just specifically Star Wars. So when we made a separate date for a Star Wars campaign he effectively ditched our fantasy group only showing up on Star Wars days.

oh and as for the ratings
1) GM (it's always me, so I'm biased)
2) Group
3) Setting
4) Decent space to play
5) Amount of caffeinated beverages and snacks available
6) Access to an actual map and miniatures
7) System (I never got people getting fussy over systems. I don't personally like 4E at all but if my group was playing it I'd go and have fun. But then, I've never played in the system that shall not be named, so maybe it can have an impact if bad enough)

Book Wyrm
2009-11-07, 03:04 AM
1. Group
2. DM
3. System/Setting

I have had good settings and DM experiences ruined by bad groups. While quirky is okay, and maybe this is just me, there are just some roleplayers out there that annoy me to no end and I just can't stand to be around.

DM needs to be good, but poor DMing can be mitigated by the quality of the group and system/setting.

System and setting kind of go hand in hand for me, but system definitely wins out. Its like playing a bad video game. Even though the to graphics may be phenomenal and the story entertaining, if the mechanics don't work it makes it really hard to continue beating yourself against a wall to get to the end of the game. That said, a poor setting can be just as boring, so like I said system and setting are even for me.

taltamir
2009-11-07, 06:16 AM
a good DM usually has their own houserules, table rules, and setting.
The setting/system are important, but are interconnected with the DM anyways.

A good group and a good DM are the most important things.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-07, 06:31 AM
DM
System
Setting

I can and have had fun in games playing in settings I was not that fond of, it's hard to have fun when the DM is bad (bordering on impossible) and some systems can just ruin my game.

MichielHagen
2009-11-07, 10:34 AM
A DM and a group are most important.

But a poor system without smart houserules might ruin my game, but that is a personal problem of mine, i have trouble dealing with stupid rulings ;)
Besides that, an unknown system might be problematic too.
One: it costs time to make yourself familiar with it.
Two: if it a new system for the whole group, a lot of in-game time is lost because of it.
The setting is of no issue to me, i actually enjoy changing settings once in a while, but a familiar one also has it's plusses.

Raum
2009-11-07, 11:41 AM
1: Group. With a good group of friends you can have fun doing almost anything. Even being railroaded through the Tomb of Horrors, should it come to that. :smallwink:

A distant 2: System / GM. Mostly because these are the two items which most easily interfere with fun. But see #1 - when the group is right you can have fun in spite of (or even because of) poor systems or GMs.

I suppose that leaves setting as #3, but when the first two are good it's not going to matter much.

I've played or GMed a lot of different games. Some with experienced GMs, others with GMs making their first attempt at running a game. I've had fun at every one...except when there were issues within the group. So pick your friends carefully and have fun!

Kiero
2009-11-07, 12:37 PM
System
GM
Setting

My GM is really good. But I'm still dreading the prospect of returning to our original game, WFRP2e because I hate the system that much.

I categorically don't have fun with any system I don't like, it sucks the enjoyment out of the game every time I have to make contact with it to resolve something.

There are still a host of settings I have no interest in, but that tends to be much lower down the order of priorities than the other two.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-07, 12:58 PM
System
GM
Setting

My GM is really good. But I'm still dreading the prospect of returning to our original game, WFRP2e because I hate the system that much.

I categorically don't have fun with any system I don't like, it sucks the enjoyment out of the game every time I have to make contact with it to resolve something.

There are still a host of settings I have no interest in, but that tends to be much lower down the order of priorities than the other two.

Your honesty is appreciated, though I'm surprised that you hate WFRP2e that much because (a) I've heard such good things about it and (b) the Enemy Within adventure path is supposedly the greatest adventure written for any rpg.

jiriku
2009-11-07, 01:51 PM
1. System
2. Group
3. DM
4. Setting

I agree with others: if you don't include group dynamics in your rating, then you're ignoring the elephant in the living room.

I grew up with Dungeons and Dragons, and it will always have a special place in my heart (4e excluded). I like specific other systems like Shadowrun or L5R because they really excite my imagination. On the other hand, games like Werewolf or BESM don't have much appeal to me, because I'm not a big fan of those things.

I rate groups above DMs because most of the guys who have DM'd for me sucked terribly, and yet we all have a good time together anyhow. A good DM is nice, but any DM is good enough if you have that goofy guy in your group who triggers traps on purpose, can't walk into a bar without starting a fight, and always seems to set himself on fire somehow.

Unless you play something like GURPS or Traveller or certain really weird D&D settings (I'm looking at you, D20 Modern), setting really doesn't have much impact on gameplay. I mean, compare Shadowrun in Seattle vs. Shadowrun in Japan or L5R on the Kaiu Wall vs. L5R in the Emperor's court. Now compare any Shadowrun game against any L5R game. System matters more than setting.

arguskos
2009-11-07, 01:55 PM
1. System. I dislike many systems I've played, and only really like some of them. If they're running something I fundamentally dislike playing in, then I won't be having a good time.
2. DM/Group. Assuming a system I like, then it comes to the people I'd be around. Most folks beat me to it, but yes, a good DM/Group can make up for a LOT of flaws in the other and the setting.
3. Setting. I actually really value setting details as being important. However, the above stuff matters more.

Berserk Monk
2009-11-07, 03:34 PM
Fourth and best option: XP

Kiero
2009-11-07, 07:13 PM
Your honesty is appreciated, though I'm surprised that you hate WFRP2e that much because (a) I've heard such good things about it and (b) the Enemy Within adventure path is supposedly the greatest adventure written for any rpg.

I hate random chargen. I don't like percentile dice. I can't stand the chain-of-rolls resolution where combat has lots of dice-rolling with very little happening. I don't much like the career system. I'm completely ambivalent about the setting.

If it weren't for the GM and this group, I wouldn't be playing at all since I didn't much like WFRP when I was playing 1e back in school.

Lots of people on the internet think WFRP is the most wonderful thing ever (no doubt as a reaction to the heroism hardcoded into D&D). Having played two editions of it, I don't rate it at all, I think all that "grim and gritty" nonsense is overplayed.

Ozymandias9
2009-11-07, 07:56 PM
1. DM
2. System
3. Setting

There are exceptions. If you have a prepackaged adventure and a system where the DM and players operate with parity under the rules (3.5 is close), 1 and 2 can be reversed.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-07, 09:59 PM
I hate random chargen. I don't like percentile dice. I can't stand the chain-of-rolls resolution where combat has lots of dice-rolling with very little happening. I don't much like the career system. I'm completely ambivalent about the setting.

If it weren't for the GM and this group, I wouldn't be playing at all since I didn't much like WFRP when I was playing 1e back in school.

Lots of people on the internet think WFRP is the most wonderful thing ever (no doubt as a reaction to the heroism hardcoded into D&D). Having played two editions of it, I don't rate it at all, I think all that "grim and gritty" nonsense is overplayed.

Ah, well makes me feel better about it since I never tried it. :smile:

I generally do go for random chargen myself, at least in my 1E games, but I'll admit it makes a lot more sense in 1E where you often roll up a ton of characters and have more of a "character squad" system swapping them in and out like tag-team wrestling than in games like 3.5 where everyone tends to have one character throughout the campaign.

RandomNPC
2009-11-07, 10:18 PM
1:DM
2: Group

If the DM is someone i know can't DM well, I'm not about to try sitting through it again.

If it's a group of people I don't enjoy being around, I will not go.

System, setting, I haven't been around enought differnet types to care, but if i get to hang out with friends i'm going to be there anyway.

Forevernade
2009-11-08, 01:29 AM
Ooooh this one is so hard...

GM first obviously
but...

System then
Setting.