Dread Necromancer advice [3.5e]

[Adumbration]

In my current game, I'm playing a Dread Necromancer, level 2. I had to build it fast, due to my previous character dying to a zombie, so my DM allows me to take two flaws post mortum, so to speak.

Which leads to my question: what two flaws and feats I should take? I already have Tomb-tainted soul and Profane lifeleach as my 1st level feat and human bonus feat. I would especially like to boost my rebuking ability. Are there any good feats for that?

Oh, and I should mention, I'm playing it away from physical combat, due to the stat rolls. I've got 6 in strength, 8 in dex and 13 in con. In the other hand, I have 15 in Int and Wis and 16 in Cha.

PS: I also have about 1000 gps in cash. What should I spend it on?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Get made Necropolitan ASAP. The boost in HP is wonderful, and it allows you to take Lifesense later on.

Level 2 hurts. You basically get to choose between feats that are a minor benefit now, or ones that do nothing now but turn awesome later. If you want to build for later, things like Corpsecrafter are nice, as are any prerequisites for PrCs.

[Adumbration]

Get made Necropolitan ASAP. The boost in HP is wonderful, and it allows you to take Lifesense later on.

Level 2 hurts. You basically get to choose between feats that are a minor benefit now, or ones that do nothing now but turn awesome later. If you want to build for later, things like Corpsecrafter are nice, as are any prerequisites for PrCs.

I don't know about the necropolitan. The cost is just so prohibitive: takes me down by at least a level, maybe two. Not to mention that I already have or will get most of the benefits an undead has, without the need to fear getting turned or rebuked. (Immune to mind-affecting at 7th level via familiar, getting healed by negative energy, damage reduction, etc.) I just don't think that in this case the benefits outweigh the cost.

Do you think Improved Turning or Extra turning would be helpful?

[JellyPooga]

If you want to focus on Rebuking, then Extra Turning is probably not worth it. It's nice when you get it free (like when you take the Master of Shrouds PrC or the Undeath Domain), but otherwise just save some pennies for a Nightstick or three. Profane Lifeleech is a very cool feat but it will get bad very quickly; 1d6 damage will become insignificant by about level 4, though the healing from it could theoretically be a lifesaver.

Contrary to Sstoopidkid, I won't suggest Necropolitan. It doesn't give you that big a boost to HP (despite what some people may claim, the Undead do not get universal d12 HD...only templated ones that specify as such, like Lich, do. Necropolitans get their current HD boosted to d12 but further HD are by class) and as you mention makes you vulnerable to Turning. You have TTS, so the main benefit of being Necropolitan is obfuscated anyway. Also, Lifesense sucks. If it worked like it does in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion it would be cool, but it doesn't...it's just like regular light; it doesn't go through walls, it's hindered by Darkness spells and everything. If you did go undead, then the most useful Undead only feat you could take would probably be Necrotic Reserve after taking 7 levels of the Pale Master PrC to give yourself a buffer against death...but even that isn't all that useful.

Feats worth taking:

Necrotic Cyst. Only if you expect the game to go far. If it stays low-level then don't bother. The cyst spells are potent indeed, but don't really start coming into their own untill you're playing with 3rd and 4th level spells.

Corpsecrafter, etc. These are good if you want to make an army. When you hit 8th level, your Undead Mastery won't stack to give your minions +8 Strength, but they will benefit from the extra HP.

Turning Feats. If you're dead set on being a Rebuker, then look into Heighten Turning to make it useful against Undead with higher HD than you (read: all of them worth worrying about). Quicken and Empower Turning are also handy boosts, the former allowing you to do something else as well as Rebuke on your turn and the latter making up for the loss of damage from Heighten.

Spell Focus can't hurt. All your spells are largely from one school, so it's a no-brainer which to go for. Alternatively, grab your self the Corrupt or Violate Spell feat and Spell Focus (Evil).

[Amphetryon]

Read this:
Dread Necromancer
First Level
This is where you have to make the big decisions in build priorities. You have to choose your skills. One of these skills is going to be Intimidate (more on that later), and if you ever want a prestige class you'll have to start working on it now (You could do worse than working towards Divine Oracle by taking Knowledge: Religion, Wild Mage by taking Spellcraft, or Mind Bender by taking social skills). Otherwise you can get pretty much anything you want. Unless you're human or a human with glowing blue eyes, you're only going to have one feat. That feat is going to be Tomb Tainted Soul, because not having that feat is unacceptable. Finally, you get to choose a martial weapon - and in all deference to the really hot Asian necromancer picture, that weapon is under no circumstances going to be an axe. You are going to have proficiency with the composite longbow.

Combat at first level for a Dread Necromancer is nasty and brutish, much like it is for a Rogue. You'll try to keep things at range as much as possible because you're soft and squishy. When it does come to melee, you're going to dish out big damage. Your Charnel Touch is a touch attack, so it is substantially more likely to land than a sword attack from a ranger of your level (they have +1 BAB on you, but how many creatures have less than a point of armor and natural armor?), and depending on your DM's reading of the ability - may do more damage. The key is whether Charnel Touch is an attack action or a standard action, it is heavily implied to be an attack action but this is unclear in the text. You can combine a Charnel Touch with a touch spell such as Chill Touch (making you do as much damage in melee as a Rogue's Sneak Attack with a longsword), but your DM may rule that you have to spend a round "powering up," so ask before you get into combat.

You're still running in there with the crappy light armor you can afford (studded leather), and 6 + Con HP, so even your high damage output shouldn't trick you into getting into melee much. Of course, any combat you survive causes you no damage, as you'll just Charnel Touch yourself back to full life during even a minute of down time. Touching yourself is a standard action, after all.

Level 2
There are no choices to make at all once you hit level 2. All of your skills advance, and you don't have any feats or proficiencies to select.

But combat is a whole new world for you, as you now have DR 2/ Bludgeoning and Magic. By this point you've probably gotten your hands on a masterwork chain shirt, and you're what passes for a decently resilient melee combatant. Your rebuking is now powerful enough to command basic skeletons, and your BAB is still only a point behind the fighters. So you still dish out the pain like a Rogue, but now you're survivable - so run in there and start slapping people.

Level 3
There is a very large choice at this level: your new feat. The obvious choice is to just take Arcane Disciple every feat from now until you've exhausted all the domains of your favorite god. I won't fault you for doing that, but you can also get some good effect out of Weapon Finesse (as it modifies touch attacks), and if you're thinking long term you might want to go for Mounted Combat as you will eventually be able to pull some tricks with undead warbeasts that are alarming.

Combat is pretty similar at 3rd level to 2nd, but the monsters are tougher. You won't have gotten noticeably better at melee (unless you took Weapon Finesse), but you now have the ability to pull a combat muligan - you are within 5 feet of yourself by definition, so if melee is turning against you a burst of negative energy will heal you and hurt them - that's all good.

Level 4
Level 4 is where you start being a halfway decent caster, and your big character choice reflects that. You can dumpster dive throughout the whole of D&D and find any Necromancy spell off the Cleric or Wizard list from any book. Good choices include Lesser Shivering Touch (which can again be combined with Charnel Touch) from Frost Burn, and Faerun has a number of nice offerings such as Stone Bones, Spirit Worm, Death Armor, and Shroud of Undeath can all be pretty useful. The Spell Compendium is a good place to go shopping, but this is a very personal choice.

We're not even going to pretend that your "Mental Bastion" makes a difference, so combat is going to be livened up by your increased BAB and your second level spells. False Life is key, remember that your DR is applied before you lose temporary hit points, so you're pretty much the tank at this point.

Special Note: Once you attain 4th level, you will continue to accrue new spells known every 4 levels even if you take a +1 caster level PrC. Gaining new levels for the purpose of learning new spells is awesome for a Dread Necromancer.

Level 5
There are no choices at 5th level, but this is where your intimidate finally pays off. A character with max ranks of Intimidate usually succeeds at intimidating things, and anything that gets into melee with you has to make a Will save or become Shaken (as written, you can jolly well just use the fear aura again and again, stacking up fear effects until your opponent becomes panicked or makes a Will Save, but we'll assume for the moment that your DM will limit you to one booga-booga a round), and if it works you can spend your action intimidating them, which stacks their Fear up to Frightened, so they lose their action running out of melee while you slap them in the back of the head. It's quite an effective "juggle" to use fighting game lingo.

Level 6
This is a level where you get a feat, and that means that you have a lot of choices again. You could get Leadership, or Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, or Death Blow (see below), or anything else you need to get into a PrC at level 9.

Combat doesn't change for you much from your new "ability". Scabrous Touch is pretty much crap, so it's not important that you have it (though you can combine it with your basic attack so it doesn't cost you anything). You can't use it to generate any of the good diseases like Ghoul Fever or Festering Hate unless you have a very generous DM. You're gonna throw in Blinding Sickness unless you want to try to kill an animal with Mindfire, but don't get your hopes up. Once again, your life revolves around the spells you just got. With Vampiric Touch and Death Ward, your tanking expertise is way up there.

Special Note: You can cast spells while using a Mithril Breastplate, so by now you should own one and wear it all the time.

Level 7
You have only one choice at this level: your familiar. There are two good choices: Quasit and Ghostly Visage. The Ghostly Visage is the combat choice, because it makes you immune to mind affecting effects and uses your level as its Hit Dice to generate a save DC for a gaze attack that paralyzes your enemies. Quasit is the less-combat choice because it gives you Commune, unlimited Detect Magic, and can still hand out quite sizeable amounts of Dex damage and its 1/day fear stacks with your fear aura.

Combat has changed for you utterly. Your DR has become bigger and you have a familiar that accentuates your combat strategy greatly (either making enemies helpless as the Ghostly Visage is wont to do, or by adding Dex damage to the pile as the Quasit can).

Level 8
Once again, you are stuck with choices. You select a new spell to go with your shiny 4th level spells. Shivering Touch is a dragon killer - 3d6 Dex damage will drop many enemies. But you're also going to probably want to de-emphasize your melee role now that you can make high quality flying mounts. Undead Mastery is high quality, because it makes your Control Undead ginormous. You also get a second Negative Energy Burst each day, but this is more for emergency healing than it is for harming enemies.


Then read this. (http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:iFyBlIyphgkJ:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook+dread+necromancer%2 7s+handbook&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) :smallsmile:

[Johanas]

If you want to focus on Rebuking, then Extra Turning is probably not worth it. It's nice when you get it free (like when you take the Master of Shrouds PrC or the Undeath Domain), but otherwise just save some pennies for a Nightstick or three. Profane Lifeleech is a very cool feat but it will get bad very quickly; 1d6 damage will become insignificant by about level 4, though the healing from it could theoretically be a lifesaver.

Contrary to Sstoopidkid, I won't suggest Necropolitan. It doesn't give you that big a boost to HP (despite what some people may claim, the Undead do not get universal d12 HD...only templated ones that specify as such, like Lich, do. Necropolitans get their current HD boosted to d12 but further HD are by class) and as you mention makes you vulnerable to Turning. You have TTS, so the main benefit of being Necropolitan is obfuscated anyway. Also, Lifesense sucks. If it worked like it does in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion it would be cool, but it doesn't...it's just like regular light; it doesn't go through walls, it's hindered by Darkness spells and everything. If you did go undead, then the most useful Undead only feat you could take would probably be Necrotic Reserve after taking 7 levels of the Pale Master PrC to give yourself a buffer against death...but even that isn't all that useful.

Feats worth taking:

Necrotic Cyst. Only if you expect the game to go far. If it stays low-level then don't bother. The cyst spells are potent indeed, but don't really start coming into their own untill you're playing with 3rd and 4th level spells.

Corpsecrafter, etc. These are good if you want to make an army. When you hit 8th level, your Undead Mastery won't stack to give your minions +8 Strength, but they will benefit from the extra HP.

Turning Feats. If you're dead set on being a Rebuker, then look into Heighten Turning to make it useful against Undead with higher HD than you (read: all of them worth worrying about). Quicken and Empower Turning are also handy boosts, the former allowing you to do something else as well as Rebuke on your turn and the latter making up for the loss of damage from Heighten.

Spell Focus can't hurt. All your spells are largely from one school, so it's a no-brainer which to go for. Alternatively, grab your self the Corrupt or Violate Spell feat and Spell Focus (Evil).

Mother Cyst, not Necrotic. Close. Page 28 of the Libris Mortis, and hell yes, take it. I am playing a curse-based Gypsy Voodoo Caster who has it...and it's boatloads of fun.

[Starbuck_II]

In my current game, I'm playing a Dread Necromancer, level 2. I had to build it fast, due to my previous character dying to a zombie, so my DM allows me to take two flaws post mortum, so to speak.

Which leads to my question: what two flaws and feats I should take? I already have Tomb-tainted soul and Profane lifeleach as my 1st level feat and human bonus feat. I would especially like to boost my rebuking ability. Are there any good feats for that?


Issue with Profane Leechlife is it never increases in hp damage/healing. It is 1d6 always. Only benefit is damage unblockable (no save), but it is uncontrollable (hits everyone in 30 feet even possibly allies).

[gorfnab]

Other feats to consider would be Dreadful Wrath, Versatile Spellcaster, and Shadow Weave Magic.

[Myrmex]

The corpsecrafter line + turning yourself into a Necropolitan = profit?

[JellyPooga]

The corpsecrafter line + turning yourself into a Necropolitan = profit?

Doesn't work...you don't turn yourself into a Necropolitan, you get someone else to do it for you and even then it's not using a spell but a ritual, so even if they had the Corpsecrafter line of feats you wouldn't get the bonuses.

[Myrmex]

Doesn't work...you don't turn yourself into a Necropolitan, you get someone else to do it for you and even then it's not using a spell but a ritual, so even if they had the Corpsecrafter line of feats you wouldn't get the bonuses.

Do it on Desecrated ground with a Specialist Necromancer who gave up a standard wizard thingy for enhanced undead?

[JellyPooga]

Do it on Desecrated ground with a Specialist Necromancer who gave up a standard wizard thingy for enhanced undead?

On Desecrated Ground, yeah, that works. Wizard necromancer ACF? Debatable. The Ritual of Crucimigration reads like Raise Dead with an extra XP cost, so it could be argued that alterior effects apply to it. It is not, however, a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability (though it might default to supernatural or spell-like because it's not specified, I'm not sure), so whether the ritual leader is specifically the one who is "casting" it and any bonuses he has to raising undead apply is one open to argument.