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ranagrande
2009-11-07, 01:15 AM
I know it's generally considered sub-optimal, but I am going to be playing a grappler in an upcoming game. What are some things I can do to max out this much-maligned ability?

Right now I'm considering a Goliath (the LA buyoff rule from Unearthed Arcana will be available) Fighter/Monk/RandomFullAttackClasses using the Scorpion Claws from Sandstorm.

So... what else? And what prestige class(es) would be best to work towards? The only one I know of off-hand is Reaping Mauler, but that isn't really that good...

It will be starting at level 5, but I wouldn't mind planning ahead. We can use any WotC 3.5 sources.

sonofzeal
2009-11-07, 01:24 AM
Grappling isn't "much maligned". It's just not the be-all-end-all caster killer. Also note that the much-vaunted "Rings of Freedom of Movement" are crazy-expensive and a pretty late game item at the best of times.

Psychic Warrior is your go-to for grapple, far more than Monk (though a monk dip can help). You especially want Expansion and Grip Of Iron. Warmind can cover you too, depending on what level you're playing at.

Maug Grafts (Fiend Folio) have some great stuff for grapplers.

Some of the Aberrant feats (Lords of Madness) are also of interest.

Gloves of Titan’s Grip are flat-out awesome for grapplers.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-07, 01:27 AM
Reaping Mauler is terrible. You can only take it if you take a feat that requires you to be medium. That's right, you lose the class if you want to do the primary thing required to boosting Grapple(grow larger).

There are 3 good base classes for Grapple. In order, Druid>PsyWar>Cleric. Fighter is bad(no way to boost Str/size), no real source of damage in a grapple. Monk is worse(weak BAB, MAD, no way to boost Str/size). I recommend Druid because it leaves you with so many other options in case grappling fails, with maybe a 1-level dip in Monk for the feats and AC.

Edit: There are 4 types of opponents at mid-high levels. Monsters, who are usually big, with good stats, massive HD, and often do bad things to you in a grapple. Casters, who can avoid it through teleportation or freedom of movement. Rogues, who can use Escape Artist(though not every Rogue will). And other Fighters. So you can grapple some Rogues and most Fighters. Not good usefulness. That's why it's maligned.

sonofzeal
2009-11-07, 01:37 AM
Edit: There are 4 types of opponents at mid-high levels. Monsters, who are usually big, with good stats, massive HD, and often do bad things to you in a grapple. Casters, who can avoid it through teleportation or freedom of movement. Rogues, who can use Escape Artist(though not every Rogue will). And other Fighters. So you can grapple some Rogues and most Fighters. Not good usefulness. That's why it's maligned.
Only really true at high levels, and a good grappler can keep up with most monster stats, especially since there's at least some of all sizes at any level. Also, I find Escape Artist tends to be a fairly low priority for Rogues (below Hide, Move Silent, Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble, Bluff, and whoop we're running out of skillpoints now); it often still gets trained, but generally only part-way in my experience.

As for Druid beating Psywar for grapple.... yeah maybe, at least if you allow Wildling Clasps (I generally don't, it's about the only item I fully disagree with). Druid is cliche though. Wildshape Ranger might actually be better, especially with Warshaper thrown in. But PsiWar gets "Huge" and the feats to back it up, and that's a good thing.

ranagrande
2009-11-07, 02:51 AM
Hrm... I think that I would prefer to be able to lock down high level spellcasters too.

Now I am considering working towards this for level 20: RandomFighterishClasses 7/Divine Crusader 4/Sovereign Speaker 9

Then with the right domains I would have all kinds of great buffs for most opponents, and Antimagic Field for use against caster types.

Do you think this would work? Are there any glaring flaws in it?

sonofzeal
2009-11-07, 03:00 AM
Hrm... I think that I would prefer to be able to lock down high level spellcasters too.

Now I am considering working towards this for level 20: RandomFighterishClasses 7/Divine Crusader 4/Sovereign Speaker 9

Then with the right domains I would have all kinds of great buffs for most opponents, and Antimagic Field for use against caster types.

Do you think this would work? Are there any glaring flaws in it?
AMF is definitely your friend. I'd very definitely go PsiWar for this then, as Druid/Ranger won't get the good forms and Monk is just a bad choice all around.

ranagrande
2009-11-07, 03:19 AM
AMF is definitely your friend. I'd very definitely go PsiWar for this then, as Druid/Ranger won't get the good forms and Monk is just a bad choice all around.
What is the advantage for Psychic Warrior? I would think that I probably shouldn't take it if I go this route, for the same reason I also wouldn't want to take Druid or Monk. Anything with less than full base attack bonus would delay entry into Divine Crusader.

If better forms are the only reason... I can always make sure to get the Animal domain and then I'll get Shapechange anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-07, 03:22 AM
What is the advantage for Psychic Warrior? I would think that I probably shouldn't take it if I go this route, for the same reason I also wouldn't want to take Druid or Monk. Anything with less than full base attack bonus would delay entry into Divine Crusader.

If better forms are the only reason... I can always make sure to get the Animal domain and then I'll get Shapechange anyway.Magical self-only boosts to size/Str(before level 17, too). Grappling a Grizzly is no fun. Grappling as a grizzly, however...

sonofzeal
2009-11-07, 03:50 AM
What is the advantage for Psychic Warrior? I would think that I probably shouldn't take it if I go this route, for the same reason I also wouldn't want to take Druid or Monk. Anything with less than full base attack bonus would delay entry into Divine Crusader.

If better forms are the only reason... I can always make sure to get the Animal domain and then I'll get Shapechange anyway.
Expansion. At ML 3, you can get Large for 30 minutes. At ML 7 you can get Huge for 7 rounds. And at ML 10, you can get Huge for 100 minutes.

Grip of Iron is pretty good too. Immediate Action +4 on Grapple for 1 round/level? Sign me up!

If you want to be a serious grappler, it's generally either this or Polymorph type stuff if you want to be good at it. Size categories are essential since the bonus is so big, and because it's the only thing that lets you even attempt to grapple the bigger monsters.

JellyPooga
2009-11-07, 04:38 AM
Psychic Warrior? Druid? Pah! Real grapplers use :smallfurious:RAGE:smallfurious:

Barbarian/Bear Warrior is grapple-tastic. Huge strength, Large size and the option to get Improved Grab from ACFs. Sure it's not perhaps as optimal as PsyWar for grappling, but you get to be a bear! How cool is that?

At your current level, as a Barbarian, you'll have a mighty impressive Strength compared to others because the enhancement boost items aren't knocking around prolifically yet, Druids haven't yet got Wild Shape and Polymorph is a long way off. If you use the Bear Totem (UA) and Spirit Totem (CC) at Lvl.5 you'll have Improved Grab, Improved Grapple and an untyped +4 bonus to grapple when raging...so before even thinking about Strength and BAB, your Grapple mod is +8. Add another +4 to that for Powerful Build, +2 from the Str boost from Raging, another +2 from your racial Str mod and +5 BAB, giving you an impressive +21 Grapple mod when Raging...before considering magic, equipment and whatever score you've put into Strength.

Keld Denar
2009-11-07, 05:01 AM
2 things you want for a sucessful grappler OTHER than a high grapple check. You want a high base unarmed damage, and you want some form of Constrict.

High base unarmed damage is easy using a Monk/PsyWar blend with the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona. It stacks your Monk levels with any one other psionic class of your choice to determine your UAS, AC, and flurry progression. This is GOLDEN. Tack on some size increases and effective monk level increases and you'll be punching with 6d6 hamfists with little effort.

Constrict is a slightly tougher one. The 3 ways that are generally easiest to get it is 1 level of Nature's Warrior (for droods) or 2 feat investments of Martial Study (Any Stone Dragon) + Martial Stance (Crushing Weight of the Mountain) from Tome of Battle OR Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) and Open Least Chakra (Arms) from Magic of Incarnum. The great thing about Constrict is that it triggers EVERY TIME YOU WIN A GRAPPLE. You pin a foe? Constrict. You move the grapple? Constrict. Your foe tries unsuccessfully to escape? Constrict. You make a grapple check to damage your foe? Constrict. Its free damage that really piles up when you have a decent Str score, which you should as a dedicated grappler.

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 11:43 AM
To grapple casters, you need either Greater Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic Field. Preferably both. These enable you to negate opponent's Freedom of Movement, Heart of Air, Contingencies and similars (though you really need AMF for Contingencies). Teleportation/swift modes of movement help too.

Few good ways to accomplish it:
Druid
Psychic Warrior
Cleric
Runescarred Berserker
Psion


All of those are fine Grappler-shells and gain access to at least some of the above (Psion obviously goes Slayer with Tashalatora-base).

All that said, it's generally just inefficient to grapple a caster. Much better to trip 'em if you don't have enough to kill them, and kill them otherwise. Getting to the caster and attacking it is much bigger a problem than killing the caster once you get to it and can attack it. This is why grapple is generally redundant and unnecessary to kill 'em.

ericgrau
2009-11-08, 01:17 PM
Team up with a sneak attacking rogue and/or a power attacking fighter. Pinning an opponent gives him a total of -9 to his AC, in addition to removing his dex bonus. And it only takes 2 attacks to pin someone: 1 attack to initiate grapple and 1 to pin. After that it's 1 attack per round, which means you have more attacks for other things. You can also find a method of grapple damage like magically (weapon) enchanted spiked armor.

sonofzeal
2009-11-08, 01:23 PM
All that said, it's generally just inefficient to grapple a caster. Much better to trip 'em if you don't have enough to kill them, and kill them otherwise. Getting to the caster and attacking it is much bigger a problem than killing the caster once you get to it and can attack it. This is why grapple is generally redundant and unnecessary to kill 'em.
Only in high-level games. In lower-level games, casters don't have the all the spells to make a total defense, and even when they do it can carry a prohibitive price tag in action economy and resources used (though metamagic-reducers can help with this via Extend/Persist and Quicken). Generally speaking, he's only going to be thoroughly out of reach if he's of mid-high level, knows you're coming, has time to prepare, and the DM's suitably perverse. Granted, the first three are pretty likely for a BBEG at least, but a good DM won't shut out his melee types entirely on a consistent basis.

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-08, 01:25 PM
Sharktooth Staff (Savage species exotic weapon): on a attack that hits a medium or small creature initiate a grapple for free, you are not considered grappled. ((If you want to go fighter, pick up the exoticist variant, and grab 4 exotic weapons that are worth it, nets, spiked chain, fullblade, sharktooth staff seem good options without going into the cheesy braid blades or crescent knives.))

Soul Eater, negative level with a your touch. 1 level dip is grand, but has alertness as a prereq (ick). Negative levels have the added benifit of taking a caster's highest level spell away. If you grapple and full round with your light weapons (unarmed strike) you can drain a large amount of levels away which will only help you keep the grapple up.

Warmind is the Full BAB psychic warrior, I would pick that up instead of Divine Crusader. Divine Crusader gets fast track casting, sure, but only from your domain, which is lame. Grabbing a domain with antimagic field in it will limit the amount of buffs you can cast (not because of antimagic field, but your domain of choice doesn't have good buffs). Straight cleric will give you more domains and acces to the spell Divine Power (BAB=level), and turning attempts for some neat divine feats. Otherwise Warmind's powers are great for a size bonus to grapple and typless. I believe Psychic warrior is being advised because it also grants fighter feats but I find it's lack of full bab disturbing.

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 01:32 PM
Only in high-level games. In lower-level games, casters don't have the all the spells to make a total defense, and even when they do it can carry a prohibitive price tag in action economy and resources used (though metamagic-reducers can help with this via Extend/Persist and Quicken). Generally speaking, he's only going to be thoroughly out of reach if he's of mid-high level, knows you're coming, has time to prepare, and the DM's suitably perverse. Granted, the first three are pretty likely for a BBEG at least, but a good DM won't shut out his melee types entirely on a consistent basis.

In my experience, it's almost always effective to just hit for massive, potentially lethal damage or to get 'em under your controlled area. Grappling ties you to a single opponent and really doesn't do anything more than generic area control.

Xenogears
2009-11-08, 01:33 PM
If you don't mind being evil you can replace your arms with the grappling tentacle graft from the Fiend Folio. Sure you now have creepy tentacle arms but they give a (IIRC) +4 untyped bonus to grapple checks using said arms.

Person_Man
2009-11-08, 02:31 PM
From my melee combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) thread:

Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple -> Scorpion's Grasp

Pro: Locks down a single enemy, drastically limiting their options. Allows you to deal damage with opposed checks instead of attack rolls. Can deal massive damage if you have your entire build geared toward this.
Con: Size matters, so big/strong enemies will have an advantage. You lose your Dex bonus against other attackers. Ineffective against more then one enemy at a time.
Level of Effort: 3 feats + Monk/Fist of the Forest/Psychic Warrior or something similar if you also want to deal high damage.
Best used against: A single powerful enemy.
Commentary: This is another high investment/high return combo. But be careful - it works great against one enemy, but is really lousy against multiple enemies.



Get Really Big and/or Improve Your Effective Size and/or Reach

Pro: Increased size means increased damage, improved modifiers for opposed checks (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, etc), and reach. More reach equals a wider threatened area, improving your ability to trigger attacks of opportunity and use most other combos.
Con: The larger you are, the harder it is to move around in any tight space (like dungeons). In some cramped spaces, you will not be able to go above Medium size without taking squeezing penalties (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Movement,_Position,_and_Distance#Squeezing), and you may not be able to go above Large size at all. You also obviously become a much bigger target, both literally and in roleplaying terms (ie, the DM will feel more compelled to have enemies target you each round). Spells and psionic powers that improve size also have an activation cost, which means that you need to expend limited resources and sometimes need to spend a round of combat (a round you could be using to attack) in order to use them. There are also some serious metagame concerns (see above).
Level of Effort: Varies. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) is dedicated to the subject.
Best used against: Anyone.
Commentary: Although somewhat less popular then Power Attack, getting really big is arguably the most efficient and effective way to improve a melee build. In particular, the huge bonuses to many opposed checks and the improved reach are just as valuable (if not more so) compared to the increases in damage. The biggest down side is that unlike Power Attack, which can essentially be used in virtually ever combat, your DM can easily nerf your build without adjusting his encounters or plot by forcing the party to adventure in cramped spaces. But it's noteworthy that just improving your reach (using a reach weapon, Inhuman Reach, Deformity Tall, etc) has no such restriction.


Grapple is pretty easy to optimize. If you would like a demonstration, just let us know what books are allowed and your build goals.

ericgrau
2009-11-08, 02:43 PM
In my experience, it's almost always effective to just hit for massive, potentially lethal damage or to get 'em under your controlled area. Grappling ties you to a single opponent and really doesn't do anything more than generic area control.

So team up with someone who can do massive damage to someone with a sucktastic AC, and grab something like armor spikes to do ok damage yourself.

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 02:46 PM
So team up with someone who can do massive damage to someone with a sucktastic AC, and grab something like armor spikes to do ok damage yourself.

Much better to just do massive damage yourself and team up with someone who can do massive damage themselves too, no?

ericgrau
2009-11-08, 03:07 PM
They'll do more vs. -9 AC and denied dex. Rogues miss. A lot. Power attack does too, but there's [more] cheese to work around it. And you neutralize a target in the mean time, so it's almost like being triply effective to massively help an ally, still attack yourself and prevent another creature from doing much.

ranagrande
2009-11-08, 05:35 PM
Warmind is the Full BAB psychic warrior, I would pick that up instead of Divine Crusader. Divine Crusader gets fast track casting, sure, but only from your domain, which is lame. Grabbing a domain with antimagic field in it will limit the amount of buffs you can cast (not because of antimagic field, but your domain of choice doesn't have good buffs). Straight cleric will give you more domains and acces to the spell Divine Power (BAB=level), and turning attempts for some neat divine feats. Otherwise Warmind's powers are great for a size bonus to grapple and typless. I believe Psychic warrior is being advised because it also grants fighter feats but I find it's lack of full bab disturbing.
Ahh yes, but that's why you follow up Divine Crusader with the Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron. Then you have fast track casting from ten domains. Thanks for the Warmind suggestion though; I am not familiar with that one and will have to look into it.

I'm debating trying to work in the Half Vampire template too. 1d4 Constitution drain per round for pinning an opponent would be fun. It does have drawbacks though, even aside from the +2 level adjustment...