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View Full Version : Taking Responsibility for Your Character's Actions or Why Roleplaying Servers Suck



Aron Times
2009-11-07, 01:35 PM
Begin rant.

The first incarnation of Argent Gish (see below) was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server. It was one of the best roleplaying communities I had ever encountered, or so I thought.

One day, Argent ran into a party of Banites whom he had previously worked for. He asks them if they might be in need of his services again, and after a huddled discussion, they take him with them. The Banites then go to a secluded temple, presumably to speak to their superiors.

Once we get it, they quickly lock the door behind them. Along comes their superior, a vampire, and the Banites offer Argent as his meal. Crap. Argent tries to persuade them that he would be much more useful alive to them than dead, but they would have none of it.

A few hours later, I ask the DM playing the vampire NPC if I could continue playing Argent as a thrall of the vampire (to explain him respawning back in town). He refused, telling me that Argent died in that hidden temple, and was now the vampire's food. Basically, if he was stupid enough to work for Banites, he deserved permadeath.

What? :smallfurious:

The justification for Argent's permadeath was that everything happened in-character. The Banites were evil, and it was completely IC for them to sacrifice a random stranger to their vampire boss. I was not to take it personally, since what my character did IC was quite stupid.

Did it matter that the time I spent roleplaying and fleshing out Argent's personality had all gone to waste? No. As long as it's IC, it's a-okay.

I left the server in disgust soon after that, moving on to other, hopefully better ones. Each roleplaying server I joined had the IC is law rule, which means it's a-okay to screw a fellow player as long as it was done IC. I've found that such a rule basically encourages players to be *******s since they're reassured that they're not responsible for their character's actions.

And as the Milgram Experiment, the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Holocaust, and the Order of the Stick have taught us, the best way to get someone to do something evil is to convince him that he's not responsible for it.

So screw you, Escape from the Underdark, City of Arabel, Wanton Wicked, Shores of Haldun, Tales of Moonsea, In the Time of Heroes, and Terres. Screw you all! :smallfurious:

End rant. What do you think?

Gralamin
2009-11-07, 01:39 PM
Sounds like a problem of immature people running it. I know if I ran a server, I'd be against the whole idea of what happened to you. And if it did happen nonetheless, I would definitely let you play as the vampire's thrall.

In other words, people are supposed to have fun. Players who intentionally cause others not to have fun should be thrown out. Players who cause trouble, but of the type that encourages better games (IE: Instigators that don't go too far) can stay.

Yukitsu
2009-11-07, 01:43 PM
I agree with them to an extent in that you sort of should have seen it coming, or should have been prepared for that sort of event. On the other hand, yeah, they do seem like jerks.

Jack_Simth
2009-11-07, 01:46 PM
Or, you know, the server admin could have turned on the No-PVP flag universally.

Seriously. But yeah - I've just recently picked up NWN, and have been playing single-player so far. So you haven't found somewhere where people metagame in a good way, then?

Mongoose87
2009-11-07, 01:47 PM
Bane is very Lawful. That seems somewhat out of character of his faith. Shouldn't they be more interested in wreaking misery on others than randomly feeding people to vampires?

AstralFire
2009-11-07, 01:47 PM
My viewpoint on such issues is as such:


People need to be able to be a jerk IC in order for roleplay to feel real.
Being a jerk IC does not justify it OoC.
Clarify the potential ramifications of what you are intending to do OoC with someone before doing it, especially (but not only) if it can have a long-term negative effect on the character.
If the previous point is not possible (unlikely) or you didn't think before reacting (more likely), apologize OoC and offer options to remedy it if possible.

kestrel404
2009-11-07, 01:48 PM
If you're allowing people to RP evil characters, and allowing them to do so in relative anonymity, then you're going to get this kind of behaviour. It's human nature (as the OP pointed out).

What do we do? We could ban evil PCs. This means the only evil in the game is of the NPC variety - which means you're playing Everquest. If you make 'Evil' a tribal thing and all the 'evil' people are supposedly friendly, then you're playing WoW in a PK server. And if you allow people to do whatever they feel like, act as they think they should IC, and otherwise be nasty to each other, then you're going to end up in this situation.

I don't have a really good solution here. If I did I could probably make a lot of money. If you want to play in that style of game, either take the licks your dealt and move on, or else play it like everyone else is out to get you (because they might be, and why take chances?).

Gralamin
2009-11-07, 01:52 PM
I don't have a really good solution here. If I did I could probably make a lot of money. If you want to play in that style of game, either take the licks your dealt and move on, or else play it like everyone else is out to get you (because they might be, and why take chances?).


My viewpoint on such issues is as such:


People need to be able to be a jerk IC in order for roleplay to feel real.
Being a jerk IC does not justify it OoC.
Clarify the potential ramifications of what you are intending to do OoC with someone before doing it, especially (but not only) if it can have a long-term negative effect on the character.
If the previous point is not possible (unlikely) or you didn't think before reacting (more likely), apologize OoC and offer options to remedy it if possible.


AstralFire does have a good solution here. However, this is a player side responsibility, which means enforcing it is more difficult. I'd say put this up on the rules of the server page (since you have to have your own website), and make sure any authorized DMs are told to confirm this has happened before moving forward with a story.

Aron Times
2009-11-07, 01:55 PM
Or, you know, the server admin could have turned on the No-PVP flag universally.

Seriously. But yeah - I've just recently picked up NWN, and have been playing single-player so far. So you haven't found somewhere where people metagame in a good way, then?
The roleplaying servers are really bad. Your first few weeks in a roleplaying server will be very fun, but inevitably you'll run into someone playing an evil character who tries to screw your character, all the while apologizing to you that he's not responsible for his character's actions. This has happened to me in each of the servers that I listed above (not all of them are NWN servers, by the way).

The action servers, which "true roleplayers" deride as the realm of munchkins and powergamers, ironically have better players. Since it's basically taken for granted that you're playing a game, not a character when you're on an action server, players tend to take responsibility for their actions.

Well, most of the time. There are cheaters who abuse bugs and such, but otherwise virtually nobody denies responsibility for their character's actions.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-07, 02:05 PM
Begin rant.

The first incarnation of Argent Gish (see below) was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server. It was one of the best roleplaying communities I had ever encountered, or so I thought.

One day, Argent ran into a party of Banites whom he had previously worked for. He asks them if they might be in need of his services again, and after a huddled discussion, they take him with them. The Banites then go to a secluded temple, presumably to speak to their superiors.


Should have been a sense motive check that something was up with the Banites (or at least the DM clueing you in that somethin felt wrong).

Jack_Simth
2009-11-07, 02:06 PM
The roleplaying servers are really bad. Your first few weeks in a roleplaying server will be very fun, but inevitably you'll run into someone playing an evil character who tries to screw your character, all the while apologizing to you that he's not responsible for his character's actions. This has happened to me in each of the servers that I listed above (not all of them are NWN servers, by the way).

So basically, it's a very small percentage of the actual players, but after you've encountered a great many players, the odds stack up?

Oh, and when the player apologizes, you can always point out that they deliberately chose to play that sort of character. There's no particular reason to let them dodge that way.


The action servers, which "true roleplayers" deride as the realm of munchkins and powergamers, ironically have better players. Since it's basically taken for granted that you're playing a game, not a character when you're on an action server, players tend to take responsibility for their actions.

That is amusing, yes.


Well, most of the time. There are cheaters who abuse bugs and such, but otherwise virtually nobody denies responsibility for their character's actions.
Ah, so like the Continual Flame Dagger trade I ran across accidentally, then?

Coidzor
2009-11-07, 02:18 PM
What was the name of the fallacy of denying responsibility for one's characters' actions?

Jack_Simth
2009-11-07, 02:22 PM
What was the name of the fallacy of denying responsibility for one's characters' actions?
No idea, but it's simple to demonstrate.

AstralFire
2009-11-07, 02:27 PM
Well, I feel that if people aren't allowed to play jerks or do jerky things IC, then the verisimilitude is harmed. But roleplaying is cooperative, so you really should discuss with someone and give them the option to back out if you're going to be altering their character in some way.

Jerthanis
2009-11-07, 03:18 PM
I had a similar experience in City of Arabel, where I played an honest merchant Wizard of Waukeen. I was following this Monk around, roleplaying, smiting rats in a basement, or whatever lame first and second level quests that game had for you. Then, after a pitched battle against those terrible bats, wherein I interposed my tender wizard flesh between him and some monster, he turned on me and knocked me unconscious and stole all my stuff. He knocked me so far unconscious that I would've had to wait several minutes realtime to wake up. While he was excessively brutalizing me, he said, "(Hey, no hard feelings, this is all In Character)" like it was some kind of universal balm.

Anyway, he wanders off and a random passing hostile bat eventually wanders by and does a Coup De Grace. I decide that is the most stupid friggin' way to get killed ever, so I respawn and go talk to a guard, reasoning that eventually I woke up and crawled out of the basement and wasn't killed by a ornery bat in a fit of pique.

So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.

AstralFire
2009-11-07, 03:21 PM
That's pathetic.

Hashmir
2009-11-07, 03:23 PM
So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.

Wait, so him beating you up and stealing your stuff is ok because out-of-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, but you reporting him to the guard is not ok because in-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it?

Kesnit
2009-11-07, 03:24 PM
Well, I feel that if people aren't allowed to play jerks or do jerky things IC, then the verisimilitude is harmed. But roleplaying is cooperative, so you really should discuss with someone and give them the option to back out if you're going to be altering their character in some way.

This. You knew the PCs were Evil. You went with them anyway. (Though a Sense Motive would have been good. On the other hand, you did approach them in the first place...)

If there is anyone not taking responsibility for their character's actions, it's the OP.

AstralFire
2009-11-07, 03:28 PM
Woahwoahwoah I did not mean to imply anything like "the OP needs to assume responsibility for their actions." I'm arguing against blanket banning evil or jerk characters and behavior IC. While the OP would have been wiser to be on guard against this kind of thing, I place the ball in the Bane-worshippers' court for how they handled it, especially if they were rude (which was sort of the sense I got).

Dracomorph
2009-11-07, 03:31 PM
So I start talking to a guard, and tell him that someone beat me unconscious and stole all my money, and that he was named "guy's name" and looked like (I give a description of "guy's name") and the guard chastised me out of character for trying to get this guy in trouble, and said IC, "Well, you should've been more careful, here's 5gp to buy clothes."

This is the only part of that story that really bothers me. Especially because it makes perfect sense IC to ask a guard for help when you've been assaulted and mugged! Honestly, Not Cool.

Just like players should be allowed to be as evil as their characters, so too should consequences for their actions be logical, as opposed to dismissive.

Gamerlord
2009-11-07, 03:32 PM
You should have seen this coming, but the local guard should also have received word from your relatives you disappeared, hire some adventures, who just so happen to stumble upon the vampire, if the heroes win, good, if they lose, that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Jerthanis
2009-11-07, 03:38 PM
Wait, so him beating you up and stealing your stuff is ok because out-of-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, but you reporting him to the guard is not ok because in-character motives couldn't possibly have anything to do with it?

Basically, yeah. The guard interpreted the situation as a Roleplay scenario, and that my insistence that he go after this guy and punish him was me being vindictive. PC names float above their heads, so he could easily be spotted anywhere he went, and me just saying, "*I describe "charname"*" was apparently me trying to exploit that OOC mechanic to get him punished.

SmartAlec
2009-11-07, 03:48 PM
I was once a DM on a roleplaying server for a while, and this was a server that tried to play law enforcement as tenacious and dedicated and also took the view that everything had a consequence (no matter what you did, you were likely crossing someone to do it). Unfortunately, that approach both turned away a lot of players and worse, burned out quite a few DMs, including me. Maybe we could have lived without the players, but not the DMs.

Aron Times
2009-11-07, 04:54 PM
Yeah, no one has fun on those servers except the Evil characters.
And the DMs' friends. Pulling that sort of crap with the DMs' friends gets you in trouble, IC excuse or not. If it happens to someone outside of their in-group, like me, you get told that "you should've been more careful blah blah blah" and so on.

Xallace
2009-11-07, 05:11 PM
Yeah. Roleplaying servers're the pits, man. I stopped playing online after I got chased through Castle Neverwinter by a 30th-level Wizard for 20 minutes. Died 15 times. Reason was because her character was evil and thought it was funny.

I got the last laugh, though. She lived on wearing a gaudy purple-and-green robe with a winged, copper helm, while I died in my stylish black Golem Armor with matching Helm of Brilliance (yes, the Helm of Brilliance was black). The gods look favorably upon the stylish. :smalltongue:

Paulus
2009-11-07, 05:23 PM
I find this all terribly interesting, but have no idea what you are talking about. Servers? guards chastising you out of character? Game? Is this PnP or PC? and if it's PC how is this possible? Can you those of us who don't get what your talking about a quick summary of everything you are talking bout - if it's not to much trouble- please?

Also, I don't care what anyone says at all anywhere at anytime. Character death is far to important to excuse or argue off for stupidity. The player should always have a choice, ALWAYS, robbing them of what their character gets to do before or after death is completely and utterly wrong. Worse then railroading, and even worse then a TPK. But that's my opinion.

Gnorman
2009-11-07, 05:25 PM
Man Escape from the Underdark was a messed up server sometimes. I feel your pain.

After losing paladins, rogues, and yes, even a cleric of Bane to the machinations and predations of evil characters, I decided to play a comic relief gnome rogue/illusionist for the entire rest of the time - it was so much easier. And though sometimes characters hated you, as long as you stayed out of the way, made yourself look unimportant, you could survive. You ingratiated yourself towards characters with a sense of humor by participating in witty repartee and the occasional prank. You subtly mocked authority figures in a way that made the chaotic characters like you, but not enough for the guards to haul you off to jail or beat you senseless. You brewed potions and crafted wands like mad in an effort to establish yourself as a trusted, reliable resource for magical items, because who wants to kill a vendor? But you were also quick to turn any liquid assets back into scrolls for your spellbook and more magic items, so that you never had too much pocket money on you at any one time, so that you were never a fat little bullseye for money-grubbing thieves.

And then, when everyone thought you were harmless, an addled little alchemist with no cruel ambitions or holy crusades to speak of, you got your revenge. You isolated your (thankfully very few) enemies one by one (the ones who consistently got their rocks off by torturing, harassing, and murdering other characters were a special favorite of mine), made sure that their friends and relatives assumed they were off adventuring in the depths of the Underdark, killed them with a phenomenally high DC Phantasmal Killer spell, and then fed their bodies to the rats. When the authorities asked questions, you professed ignorance and continued to quietly brew potions, craft wands, and talk about deliberately misleading nonsense. No more cruel, domineering taskmasters to worry about. No more crude, murderous, absolutely despicable dwarves (to date the best roleplaying of 6 CHA I've ever seen - my only regret is that I didn't kill him personally, as he was killed by the guards after sinking an axe into the back of the evil, seductive enchantress I was also attempting to eliminate). No more cabals of Bane looking to enslave your friends. No more stuffy wizard who tried to corner you in an ally in Lower and have you killed for mocking him in front of the mayor.

It was, oddly enough, a very good education in a gnome's life.

Kallisti
2009-11-07, 05:27 PM
I've never been to a roleplaying server, but I've go to say: You can play an evil character. You can play a jerk. But you're the one who chose to play that kind of character. If your roleplaying is ruining others' fun, then roleplay differently. It's a game. It's a group game. If you want to have your character be a **** to everyone indescriminately and not be blamed for it, Steve Jackson games makes this wonderful card game called Munchkin. I recommend it highly for that type of play.

EDIT:

It was, oddly enough, a very good education in a gnome's life.

That is truly awesome.

thubby
2009-11-07, 05:58 PM
as I see it, people are largely responsible for their character's actions because they are the ones who made the characters the way they are.
that is, if you make a character you know is willing to betray his friends, you're responsible for the fact that he did.

KBF
2009-11-07, 06:19 PM
I find this all terribly interesting, but have no idea what you are talking about.



...was a mercenary wizard in a Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server.

Question answered. Also, you probably do OOC with just a means of saying that your normal chat is OOC, like parenthesis.

Worira
2009-11-07, 07:34 PM
Since it hasn't been directly quoted yet in this thread:


Decide to React Differently: Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Has a character ever threatened repeatedly to leave the party? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react." Heck, often you'll be the one saying it; it's a common reaction when alignments or codes of ethics clash.

However, it also creates a logjam where neither side wants to back down. The key to resolving this problem is to decide to react differently. You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.

When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree.

Here's another example: In a campaign I DM'd, the party's bard lifted a magical sword behind the back of the party's Lawful Good monk. The monk had basically decided that the bodies of several fallen knights would be buried without looting, and rather than argue, the bard just grabbed the sword. The bad news was, the sword was cursed; it was the blade that had belonged to a ghost that roamed the castle, and whenever the bard drew it, the ghost materialized and attacked him (and only him). Eventually, the bard 'fessed up that he had stolen the sword. The monk (and the monk's player) became furious, and declared that he could no longer travel with the bard. Either the bard had to leave, or he would. It became a huge argument between characters and players, and it was entirely unnecessary. The monk did not have to react with an ultimatum; the monk did not even have to be angry, no matter what his alignment was. The bard had already suffered the misfortune of having his Charisma drained by the ghost repeatedly; the monk could have chosen (for example) to lecture the bard on how his theft had brought him nothing but misery. He chose to create player conflict when it was just as easy to not.

Personally, I blame the paladin for this. The original paladin class created the precedent for one player thinking he has the right to dictate the morality of other players. That drives me nuts. Ever since, players who select a Lawful Good character automatically assume it is up to them to police the rest of the party, and too often, the rest of the party lets them. As far as I'm concerned, no player has the right to tell another player how to act. Lawful Good is not the "right" way to be, and it is unacceptable to push your character's ideals on other players whether they want them or not.

Another useful application of this concept involves accepting story hooks your DM gives to you. Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot. After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning.

If the paladin is to blame for the last problem, this one belongs to the druid. Druids have such a specific set of principles that players often mistake them for being a free pass to demand that each adventure revolve around their goals. Raiding a dungeon for gold doesn't appeal to the druid mindset, so what are you to do if you play one and are presented with that goal? You improvise. Maybe the gold will enable you to purchase magic items that will let you protect the wilderness. Maybe the ruins contain unnatural monsters that need to be killed regardless of the treasure. Maybe, just maybe, the other PCs are your friends and you are willing to help them just because. Too often that last part is forgotten; I don't think anyone reading this has never spent the night doing something they'd rather not because a friend asked.

So if you're really paying attention, you may be thinking, "Hey, don't those two points contradict one another? First he says to separate what your character thinks from what you think, but then he says your character doesn't have its own reactions." Well, no. Separate your character's thoughts from your own thoughts, but don't forget who is in control of both personalities. The division between your personality and that of your character only goes so far as it helps the game; once it begins becoming a disruption, a player has a responsibility to alter his or her character's decisions in the interest of the group. In the end, your relationships with the people you are sitting in someone's living room with are more important than your character's internal consistency.

Ozymandias9
2009-11-07, 07:53 PM
End rant. What do you think?

On a personal level, I agree with them: I prefer death to be a legitimate possibility to game world interaction. I recognize that that opinion puts me in the minority at this point, and thus if it runs counter to the general atmosphere of the population involved, I will bow to the prevailing conventions.

Thus while I do think you're being a bit silly, I also think that they're rude (which is much, much worse).

Zen Master
2009-11-07, 08:02 PM
My experience with NWN servers is this:

On most limited-population servers, everyone who has played there awhile knows each other, knows the GM - and newbies get screwed over as a matter of course. If you absolutely want to play there, you can do so - go on until you're part of the crowd, and croon in maniacal glee when it's finally your turn to screw over a newcomer.

Solution to all this? Everyone should play on Three Towns. That's pretty much all there is to it - if there's a better server, I've yet to find it or hear of it.

Of course, that's NWN1 - not 2. And it's not RP, but you can RP there just fine. And far more story-driven than most RP servers I've seen.

sonofzeal
2009-11-07, 08:05 PM
On a personal level, I agree with them: I prefer death to be a legitimate possibility to game world interaction. I recognize that that opinion puts me in the minority at this point, and thus if it runs counter to the general atmosphere of the population involved, I will bow to the prevailing conventions.

Thus while I do think you're being a bit silly, I also think that they're rude (which is much, much worse).
Agreed. Character death should be possible, you should be able to screw up and bite the big one, and there's nothing inherently wrong with leading another player into a trap, presuming that player had an "out" (in your case, not following the known evil guys).

That said, where they went wrong is in not giving you openings to continue playing the character, as a Spawn or whatnot. What normally happens in that game if you die to monsters? Why couldn't that have happened this time?

Book Wyrm
2009-11-07, 08:38 PM
This kind of stuff is what makes me think RP servers, or just online rpgs in general, should institute an ebay like player rating. Ebay allows you to rate buyers and sellers with a star rating and leave a comment about why that person was good or bad. While this might break the verisimilitude of the game, it gives people a chance to realize that, hey, this person is an ass and will probably stab me in the back, and removes some of the anonymity that breeds negative behavior by creating a consequence for their actions.

Grumman
2009-11-07, 09:14 PM
This is not a problem with people playing evil characters. This is a problem with griefers. That said, the use of the words "that's what my character would do" should be a defenestrating offense.

Gralamin
2009-11-07, 09:28 PM
This is not a problem with people playing evil characters. This is a problem with griefers. That said, the use of the words "that's what my character would do" should be a defenestrating offense.

We only have so many Windows!

Which, brings to my mind: Is it defenestrating if you throw someone through a computer running the Windows OS?

Nero24200
2009-11-08, 07:33 AM
This is why I stopped playing NWN. The sad truth is that the majority of RP'ers on there are just grievers who like to find a way to loosly justify their actions, and DM's who constantly pamper said players while neglecting (and even grieving) other players on the server.

This is being said as someone who has played on some servers there (including a few mentioned in the OP), both as someone who has been grieved and as someone who (though unintentionally) became one of these "DM Pets" and found out how annoying it can be.

I remember having a character in EFU, a paladin, who naturally fell because unless you play the DM's specific idea of lawful anal you will fall. Conveintly, he fell for being attacked by a watchmen on the streets (never mind that the watchmen openly admitted that he just plain didn't like the paladin, or that the paladin even stopped and said "I won't brawl on the street, if you really want to fight me we have an arena for that"). None of the DM's seemed to find it suspcicious either when a character begins hunting mine, dies, then the player's new PC is another character set on hunting mine again...and the one after that too :smallmad: As long as "It's IC" was an excuse you could get away with anything on that server, even if it's only in -character because you intentionally made him a douche.

And I think that's something alot of people seem to forget. Your character can be the devil incarnate, it still doesn't change the fact that what actions he/she does is ultimately down to you as a player. "IC" never forces you to pick a fight, go out your way to antagonise or anything else greivers are likely to do. Not to mention that much of the IC-rationale is poorly thought out and inconsistant.

In short, the RP servers are bad. I honestly wouldn't bother. If you can find one where PVP just plain isn't allowed you should be fine, but don't hold your breath.

Arakune
2009-11-08, 01:27 PM
Why don't we make a Gitp Server? The dedicated server from bioware is free.

Skaven
2009-11-08, 02:10 PM
Making a server is a LOT of work.

I used to build for two (not at the same time of course), I could spend upwards of 6 hours on one area if it wasn't generic wilderness. There's building, and then there is building -right-.

I feel for you, its why I eventually stopped playing on all but one server. The server me and my friends built. We didn't get many new players cause of lots of hakpacks.

I eventually left that one too, when we all burnt out and it was overtaken by the kind of bad folk mentioned in this thread. The kind of folk who think its fine to log in epic mages and hunt someone who just logged on. Think of a normal city street with an epic mage running through streets glowing like hiroshima with every protective spell in the book looking to grief-kill someone with no roleplay involved for past slight that was mostly OOC.

We expected high responsibility for our epic players, unfortunately that lamer somehow wheedled his way into head DM slot since nobody else wanted the job. I just quit straight afterwards. And this was a server I had helped buid, DM and play for like, 4-5 years.

Asbestos
2009-11-08, 02:16 PM
This is not a problem with people playing evil characters. This is a problem with griefers. That said, the use of the words "that's what my character would do" should be a defenestrating offense.
Indeed, it seems that a lot of what it being described is straight up griefing which any respectable Admin or DM would not stand for. Back when I played on and later DMed on the late-great-then-no-so-great Abyss 404, PC permadeath would have been an absolutely last resort thing that would only come about if the player knew about it in advance and agreed on it OR as a punishment tacked on to a banning of the player from the server. Abyss (and its bastard-child Ariochus) had a fair amount of Evil or Neutral PCs, but for the most part their was still a sort of mutual respect going on. This probably had most to do with it being a relatively small server for most of its life so the main 'town' was in reality a small trading Outpost. If someone was an ass, everyone knew it and asses were not likely to be played with.

Optimystik
2009-11-08, 02:18 PM
NWN has many inherent limitations to roleplay. First, NPC law enforcement has to be kept to small numbers to avoid straining both the server hardware and reduce lag on the players' end - the upshot is the common MMO phenomenon of "superguards," where the town guards are capable of one-shotting most of the PCs or otherwise instantly neutralizing them (such as teleporting them straight to antimagic jail, paralyzing without a save and other such brokenness.)

This leads to the second problem - who the DMs allow to be guards - or special in any way, really - becomes a popularity contest, as they'll be selective of who can gain access to such power. Typically the recipients will be their friends, or at least people who've sucked up enough to be considered their friends.

Thirdly, the DMs - in their quest to be "fair and impartial" - forget they're playing D&D and think they're running an MMO. Characters who die due to lag, bugs and mistakes are summarily written off. You got to level 10 over the course of 15 days of work, then died in succession due to latency and dropped to 4? Too bad for you. But did you die beautifully during one of their carefully crafted server events? Well then they might deign to grant some exp, or an item to your newly rolled replacement. Do you want to be something other than a dwarf, human, half-orc or moon elf? You'd better have his entire life mapped out from birth to death, or we won't even read your application.

TL;DR: I had a lot of fun playing on dedicated roleplay servers, particularly Escape from the Underdark and City of Arabel, but the above issues were far more hassle to deal with than the reward I felt I got out of the experience. It's bad enough we have to roleplay in a world where names float over our heads and half the skills in PnP are missing. The DMs generally made life more difficult, not less, which is why I stopped.

Stormageddon
2009-11-08, 06:57 PM
I find it funny this this thread came up today. I just decided to quit a roleplaying server on NWN2. I was playing elements of aeyrs. I quite for two reasons.

1) People on the server were jerks.

2) No followable story line.

Roleplaying to me isn't about roleplaying just for the sake of roleplaying. It's about having a goodtime with with your friends at a game you enjoy. I general play video RPGs for the story line which I find to be generally lacking in most MMRPGs. I found the massive amounts of bugs and story line that said there's a massive army of undead in this forest, than I go to the forest and there's no undead insight.... What was I supposed to do? Imagine the undead in the computer game!? No thanks. Goodbye Elements of Aerys.

Asbestos
2009-11-08, 09:44 PM
I find it funny this this thread came up today. I just decided to quit a roleplaying server on NWN2. I was playing elements of aeyrs. I quite for two reasons.

1) People on the server were jerks.

2) No followable story line.

Roleplaying to me isn't about roleplaying just for the sake of roleplaying. It's about having a goodtime with with your friends at a game you enjoy. I general play video RPGs for the story line which I find to be generally lacking in most MMRPGs. I found the massive amounts of bugs and story line that said there's a massive army of undead in this forest, than I go to the forest and there's no undead insight.... What was I supposed to do? Imagine the undead in the computer game!? No thanks. Goodbye Elements of Aerys.
Yeah, that can happen sometimes. I always made sure to drop a few horrible monsters where they were supposed to be. Server resets kept screwing me over though..

xPANCAKEx
2009-11-08, 10:20 PM
As for the OP:

offering to work for a known-evil group always has the inherant possibility of "you may get screwed" as a small print clause along the way.

Did your death benifit them and have no repercussions for them? sadly i can see a lot of evil types going for that, even when OoC they know it will upset someone. Making yourself an easy mark (walking in ALONE to their temple) along the way probably only increases those chances

as for not being respawned as a thrall... yeah, that was a bit of a **** move on their part though

as for how to deal with it. A) don't get drawn into situations of potential peril B) go on an holy-anti-evil crusade in future

if the players are self enforcing... then police the evil

Random832
2009-11-08, 10:37 PM
^ That. If people are griefing because "that's how my Evil character would react", then your only recourse is to start griefing them because "that's how my Paladin would react". Go Miko Miyazaki on them.

UglyPanda
2009-11-08, 10:38 PM
^ That. If people are griefing because "that's how my Evil character would react", then your only recourse is to start griefing them because "that's how my Paladin would react". Go Miko Miyazaki on them.Two things: Griefers tend to be higher levels than you; You're perpetuating the problem and aren't really solving anything.

Random832
2009-11-08, 10:39 PM
You're perpetuating the problem and aren't really solving anything.

If they know what it's like from the other side maybe they'll change their ways.

Grumman
2009-11-08, 10:44 PM
If they know what it's like from the other side maybe they'll change their ways.
They won't. Short of showing up at their house with a clue-by-four, I think that impotent frustration is exactly what they are trying to create.

UglyPanda
2009-11-08, 10:45 PM
Giving people a taste of their own medicine doesn't really help. It's like fighting the ocean. All you possibly* do is stop that instance of griefing. It doesn't change the fact that somebody might grief him again.

And the first problem is bigger: Griefers are higher levels than you are and if your character is permakilled, you have to start all over. You have to spend many hours just to make one player possibly* feel a few minutes of remorse. It's a losing battle.

*What Grunman said.

Milskidasith
2009-11-08, 10:46 PM
What was the name of the fallacy of denying responsibility for one's characters' actions?

This is a bit late, and not the exact word, but I believe the acronym for internet jerkitude in general is GIFT.

General Internet Fill-in-the-blank Theory.

The formula is Normal Person + Annonymity = /b/tard.

Kallisti
2009-11-08, 10:55 PM
^ That. If people are griefing because "that's how my Evil character would react", then your only recourse is to start griefing them because "that's how my Paladin would react". Go Miko Miyazaki on them.

First go somewhere ow on griefers and level a bit. Then go Miko Miyazaki. Miko Kamikaze tends to work...less well.

Grumman
2009-11-08, 11:08 PM
First go somewhere ow on griefers and level a bit. Then go Miko Miyazaki. Miko Kamikaze tends to work...less well.
How about this for a better suggestion:
First go somewhere low on griefers and level a bit. Then stay there.

Your plan relies on levelling faster than the griefer does. Given the griefer apparently lacks empathy, friends or anything else that would get in the way of levelling as fast as possible to maintain their edge, this seems unlikely.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:16 PM
don't take any class whose powers can be taken away at the drop of the hat though, or else the griefer's will just cry to their friend DM and goodbye paladin powers.

Myrmex
2009-11-08, 11:39 PM
fallacy

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

Waylor
2009-11-09, 04:51 AM
Wooo Nice Thread

Go to a Spanish RP Server! We dont have those stupid CE Pcs, instead we have de telettuby land, where nothing happens to you if theres a LG, NG or CG in your sheet.

In addition to have choosen to roleplay a good character, you will get a free ticket to kill evil characters if you find one and penalize evil characters that do the same!!!

Yeah, i left a bunch of servers because of that, we call that the "Telettuby effect" and it happens a lot.

If you want to roleplay online, find a group and use fantasy grounds or one of the similar free clients, im starting a game this week (plus my regular game every saturday at my house =D)

NWN is full of idiots, metagamers and 30-years-old kids, i could write a whole book with all the crap ive seen in that game. DMs Cheating, player metagaming, powergammer disguised as roleplayers telling dms to punish another powergammers, etc, etc...

warmachine
2009-11-09, 05:00 AM
If evil people are ****ing victims over, there are moral philosophies that such people must be hunted down and killed, including by law and order types who've never been victims. It is perfectly good roleplaying to do this. In a lawless world, the evil are kept in check by vigilantes. One set of ****holes cause an opposing set of ****holes to arise because the latter know the former would turn the place into hell if unopposed.

Be vindictive. It's fun and it's how humans behave. If you can't be vindictive, leave because you're been denied reasonable roleplaying.

Waylor
2009-11-09, 05:12 AM
I dont mean that, its more like

----------------------------------
Dm: Ok, you killed him, why
Evilguy: Because i know he is a paladin from Y organization.
Dm: Do you have screenshots of that?
E: Yeah *Sends pics*
Dm: Does anyone else know that? pics or something?
E: eh... no, i was alone spying invisible
Dm: PvP not valid, he's alive
-----------------------------------
Dm: Ok, you killed him, why
Telettuby: Cause i know he's evil and a member of X organization.
Dm: Ok, its permadeath
-----------------------------------

Those ar real, the evilguy died 2 days after in hands of the paladin, funny. :smallannoyed:

Volkov
2009-11-09, 06:35 AM
Become a wizard, reach the epic levels, and then take your revenge on all of those who wronged you on those servers. Make them beg for mercy, and kill them any way. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! cough cough wheeze Seriously, take your revenge. And when they ask you why you must do this, tell them that you are not responsible for your characters actions in a sarcastic way.

Tengu_temp
2009-11-09, 07:48 AM
NWN is like an MMO in many regards, and one of them is that if you give the players the opportunity to be jerks, then a lot of them will be jerks. From my experience, the best way to prohibit this is a server with pvp turned off and/or a ban on evil characters. I played one RP server which had neither and the player population was generally okay, but that was mostly because good characters simply outnumbered evil ones tremendously, and most of the evil guys were more of the manipulative bastard type than the moustache-twirling griefer type. But none of you probably ever played that server, because it was a Polish one and it was years ago - I don't even know how it looks like now, or is it even still active.

I spent a lot of time playing NWN online, and in the end I must say one thing - in general, unless you're buddies with one of your server's DMs or have other reassurance that you'll have good access to DM-run quests and other events, it's rarely worth it. Play PbP instead.

warmachine
2009-11-09, 12:53 PM
I dont mean that, its more like
----------------------------------
Dm: Ok, you killed him, why
Evilguy: Because i know he is a paladin from Y organization.
Dm: Do you have screenshots of that?
E: Yeah *Sends pics*
Dm: Does anyone else know that? pics or something?
E: eh... no, i was alone spying invisible
Dm: PvP not valid, he's alive
-----------------------------------
Dm: Ok, you killed him, why
Telettuby: Cause i know he's evil and a member of X organization.
Dm: Ok, its permadeath
-----------------------------------

Those ar real, the evilguy died 2 days after in hands of the paladin, funny. :smallannoyed:
In that case, you have the same problem but at the opposite end. It is reasonable for evil people to stalk, identify and pre-emptively murder vigilantes just as it's reasonable for vigilantes to do the same to them. In a violent world without rule of law, of course. Just because paladins are expected to do it doesn't mean others can't. Indeed, if a class is expected to murder, retaliation and pre-emption by others should be expected.

However, if the DM is selectively applying PvP rules, leave.

Waylor
2009-11-09, 08:13 PM
Thats what i did, but all the servers have the same problem.

Anyway, im starting a FG wushu game this friday and hope to continue my 3.5 campaing on saturday (yay!)

taltamir
2009-11-09, 09:01 PM
A few hours later, I ask the DM playing the vampire NPC

So the vampire that you were offered as food to, who would not speak or give you any options other then "die" was a DMPC? did you at least have a fair fight against it or was it just "and the vampire eats you" by DM fiat?

Aron Times
2009-11-09, 09:14 PM
Argent Gish was a level 6 or 7 diviner (can't remember). The Banites basically surrounded him and full attacked. With zero buffs running, he died instantly.