Arena Tournament, Round 72: Todd vs. Dense

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 72: Todd vs. Dense

Map:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/Kyeudo/CloudArena.jpg


XP Award: 600 XP
GP Award: 600 GP

Mavian - Todd (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=31584)
Psionic Dog - Dense (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5065)

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[Mavian]

Init - [roll0]

I don't suppose your willing to have a fight without hiding and running?

[Psionic Dog]

Hmm, I'm open to accepting your no-hiding proposal, but that no-running bit is open for interpretation. Any character who does a whopping +1 1d3 for melee attacks *has* to do some maneuvering. :smalltongue:

[roll0]

As for purchases:
10 more crossbow bolts [1gp]
PsionicTatoo of Prescience, Offensive [50gp]

Unless Dense needs to make a reactionary purchase he's done shopping.

Character sheet updated to reflect expeditures and winnings of last match and above purchases.

PS: What is Douse the Flames?

[Mavian]

Douse the flames is a strike that if it hits, prevents my opponent from taking any AoO's. Mainly useful for running away.

Todd - Round 1

Starting in N25 wielding my Poleaxe, which I am proficient with.
Swift: Enter Punishing Stance
Move Action: N25 to P21
Standard Action: Ready an action to move if LoS is established.


End of Turn

Stats:

Hp: 32
Ac: 13
Pos: P21
Readied Action: Movement on LoS
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[Psionic Dog]

Ah, ok.

Dense - Round 1

Start filling the green zone mounted on a saddled heavy warhorse clad in leather barding. Dense is wearing his breastplate and is holding the heavy crossbow in one hand. His buckler is also equipped.

Now, assuming Dense didn't hear Todd go running across the map or some such...

Move: Spur mount [roll0]
Standard: activate Psionic Tatoo of Prescience

Auto-succeed Guild with knees, ride 60ft west to M13/N14, then 20ft North West along the diagonal to J10/K11, and 10ft more West to J8/K9.

Will revise if LoS is established or Dense's mount scents something anywhere at or after M13/N14.

Edit: Still Not Done, need LoS

[RPGAgmJAY]

LoS:

Dense:

No LoS. Mount detects no scent.


Dense can finish his turn at this point.

Good Gaming!
-Jay (Init. Ref)

[Psionic Dog]

Interesting.
Not within LoS or within 30ft.

Hmmm... ok, move forward 5ft to J7/K8 to get a good look south then ride northEast to end at H9/I10.

Oh, and
[roll0]

Done.

Stats
Dense: Mounted in H9/I10
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 1 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 29/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

Uh, I'm an idiot...

I just realized I started in the wrong place. I'm too used to being green in these things that I didn't notice I wasn't this time. I need to have my position flipped, and we probably need LoS redone.

@Refs:

I should be in L6, not N19

[Scorer]

Hi Ref Scorer

Due to Position Revision I'm making LoS check in Dense's 1st Turn, 1st part

@refs

they're covered with several clouds


@Dense

Spider sense's tingling... or rather, your fellow's scent skill detects something nearby


@Todd

No LoS, but you hear horse feet to the east-northeast.

[Psionic Dog]

@Refs
That's nice, I think. But where exactly did horsey have the scent kick in?

Dense declared intent to revise actions as soon as any scent was encountered at or after M13/N14, and I need to know where Dense needs to make revisions from.

[Mavian]

Still waiting on something? If so ignore the following

Todd - Round 2

Standard Action: Ready an action to move if LoS is established.

[chilepepper]

@Refs
That's nice, I think. But where exactly did horsey have the scent kick in?

Dense declared intent to revise actions as soon as any scent was encountered at or after M13/N14, and I need to know where Dense needs to make revisions from.

High Ref chilepepper

Dense
L12/M13.

We're still on Dense - Round 1.

[Psionic Dog]

Thank you. :smallsmile:

Ok,
Dense - Continued
Historically Todd has moved 20 ft, then readied another move action. So 20ft from the start and 30ft from Dense is all of three squares where Dense would be smart not to end within 20ft thereof.

So... Dense rides err... SouthWest South/SouthEast to S-16/T-17

Done.

Stats
Dense: Mounted in S16/T17
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 1 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 29/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

Todd - Round 2


Move Action: L6 to L2
Ready an action to move if LoS is established.


End of Turn


Hp: 32
Ac: 13
Pos: L2
Readied Action: Movement on LoS
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[chilepepper]

High Ref chilepepper

ToddNo LoS

DenseNo LoS

[Psionic Dog]

Dense - Round 2

Ride 50ft west to T6/U7.

Will revise if a scent is encountered or LoS established.

[roll0]
[roll1]

Not Done, need LoS

[Sallera]

Refs:Listen for Todd, made irrelevant because I forgot to check for sight: [roll0]

LoS established as Dense reaches T8/U9. Todd is in L2, and his readied action triggers.

[Mavian]

Todd moves to K5

[Psionic Dog]

That may have broken LoS so

Dense - Continued

Continue riding to T7/U8
Ready action:
Shoot Todd if he does any of the following:
- Losses concealment
- Takes a Standard Action
- Starts to leave LoS
- Ends his turn

Done.

Stats:
Dense: Mounted in T7/U8
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 2 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 29/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

Well, with the reach weapon, that should put you in range for a charge.

[B]Todd - Round 3

Full Round Action: Charge to R6
Attack: [roll0]
Conceal: [roll1] < 20 fails.
Damage: [roll2] + [roll3]

End of Turn:

Stats:

Hp: 32
Ac: 11
Pos: R6
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[Psionic Dog]

20 damage... survivable, just, but Dense is sill happy it missed.

Anyway, Dense's readied action triggers when Todd losses concealment. Twang.

[roll0]
[roll1]

[roll2]
[roll3]

Lets see what this does before posting turn...

[Psionic Dog]

Hmmmm. Dense seems to have an old tanglefoot bag from matches long past. Lets see if we can't make Todd move a little slower.

Dense - Round 3

Auto-succeed on guide with knees,
Direct Horse to 5-ft step back to U6/V7

Move: Draw Tanglefoot bag.
Standard: Throw tanglefoot bag.
[roll0] (including -2 range)
If hit become entangled for [roll1] rounds and make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid becoming glued to the floor.

Done

Stats
Dense: Mounted in U6/V7
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 3 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 29/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

Reflex Save: [roll0]

Will see what happens after I fail that.

[Mavian]

So I'm not stuck... that means I can keep moving after you.

Todd - Round 4

Free Action: 5 foot step to S6
Standard Action: Smack down your horse with a Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Concentration Check: [roll0] If this beats its AC your horse is flatfooted.
Attack: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]+[roll3] and [roll4] if the nightmare blade hits.
Concealment: [roll5] <20 Hits

End of Turn

*Smacks self in the head* Why in the heck didn't I attack you with that instead of your blasted horse.

Stats:

Hp: 24/32
Ac: 11
Pos: S6
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[Psionic Dog]

My 400 gp item of mobility has a lower AC? :smallconfused:
*note to self: buy horse better armor* (it hit by the way)

Dense - Round 4
Guide with knees
Direct horse to withdraw: V7/W8 > V8/W9 > U9/V10 > O9/P10 >L6/M7

Move Action: Reload Crossbow
Standard Action: Fire crossbow
((I believe these are assumed to occur at the movement midpoint when a mount is moving at double speed: R9/S10 in this case))

[roll0]
[roll1]

Done.

Stats
Dense: Mounted in L6/M7
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 3 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 12/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

I should get an AoO against you for that no? Your leaving a square I threaten and while your mount may be using the withdraw action. You have nothing to prevent me from hitting you. Correct?

[Psionic Dog]

The current arena precedent/rulings appear to be that no, Todd does not get an AoO since Dense isn't taking a AoO provoking movement action nor do the mounted combat rules list any exceptions to include the rider also provoking when a mount moves.

*shrugs*
It's not how I'd have called it, but there are a couple of past arena precedents upholding that AoO aren't provoked, and every ref who responded when I posted that very question in the waiting room earlier today assured me no AoO would be provoked if only my mount took a withdraw action. (See post #385 in Waiting Room XII and following posts)

[Mavian]

But that makes no sense. I mean, being thrown through a square provokes an AoO, why wouldn't being carried through a square?

[Psionic Dog]

There might be a different argument for it, but you are right. It doesn't make sense and I don't quite understand it either. I stared long and hard at it the first time I saw a fellow player (I think it was Tanaric) use the tactic, but while it seems to violate every letter of Rules As Intended I couldn't think of enough RAW evidence to pull High Ref rank and enact a rewind. So as the saying goes, "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em"

If you want to bring in Kyeudo to over turn the current interpretation I won't complain, but otherwise no AoO.

[Mavian]

I do want it overturned, because I looked at it and there is nothing it the RaW that says I don't. The withdraw action states



Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.


and nowhere in there does it say anything about you, and any creature you happen to be carrying. Just the creature preforming the action.

[Psionic Dog]

Well, just to play devil's advocate, I think the interpretation may have been that Dense doesn't "move" but rather "is moved" and since no exceptions are listed to include AoO when riding Riders don't provoke AoOs regardless of what their mount does for movement - the withdraw action is only needed to protect the horse from retribution. Some people would call this stupid but Raw.

Personally I agree that it is stupid. Whether it is Raw or not probably comes down to if "move" and "is moved" are synonyms in the AoO tables.


Anyway, if this thing gets overturned I ask only that Dense be allowed to revise his turn as I had already cleared it as non-AoO provoking with the refs online at the time. It's OK if everything posted still has to happen as posted, I think I can make do with only a non-action or two that won't change his listed actions any.

EDIT: In fact, if Mavian is willing to let Dense make those changes I'm willing to play on as if the rider provokes AoO when his mount moves just so we won't be on hold waiting on Refs. If he hits and there was no AoO we can just refund Dense the damage taken, and if it misses then the whole question becomes important only for future events.

[hustlertwo]

Well, just to play devil's advocate, I think the interpretation may have been that Dense doesn't "move" but rather "is moved" and since no exceptions are listed to include AoO when riding doesn't provoke an AoO regardless of what the horse does - the withdraw action is only needed to protect the horse from retribution. Some people would call this stupid but Raw.

Personally I agree that it is stupid. Whether it is Raw or not probably comes down to if "move" and "is moved" are synonyms in the AoO tables.


Anyway, if this thing gets overturned I ask only that Dense be allowed to revise his turn as I had already cleared it as non-AoO provoking with the refs online at the time. It's OK if everything posted still has to happen as posted, I think I can make do with only a non-action or two that won't change his listed actions any.

EDIT: In fact, if Mavian is willing to let Dense make those changes I'm willing to play on as if the rider provokes AoO when his mount moves just so we won't be on hold waiting on Refs. If he hits and there was no AoO we can just refund Dense the damage taken, and if it misses then the whole question becomes important only for future events.

Yeah, that seems reasonable. Ill-advised turns that are legal can't usually be redone, but if it was cleared by a high ref prior, then it'd be wrong to make it stand as is. And that's the closest I'm coming to making a ruling on this matter. I swear, actual lawyers have fewer grey areas to deal with.

[Mavian]

I'll let you do something else.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

I don't recall making any rulings on the subject and I can't remember seeing any match rulings on the subject, but Mavian has made a good point. The Withdraw action, by the RAW, only applies to you, not to anyone you may be carrying, so only the mount would be protected on a mounted withdraw.

[Psionic Dog]

Cool. I thought I saw it come up in one of the FFA match and again in one of the 1v1 at clouds. Can't remember which matches, but it's good to have a nice firm ruling.

Dense Revised:
Before the horse withdraws Dense attempts to use his mount as cover.
[roll0] DC 15.

Its a non-action, and after 15 ft or so he'll resume riding normally. Otherwise his turn progresses as last posted.

On success Dense gains cover and denies Todd his AoO (characters can't take AoO on creatures that have cover relative to them) On failure Todd wins his AoO.

[Mavian]

Todd - Round 5

Move Action: S6 to T8
Standard Action: Scrape off the goo [roll0]

End of Turn

Stats:

Hp: 18/32
Ac: 13
Pos: T8
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[Psionic Dog]

Wait - can creatues who aren't glued to the ground even take goo scrapping actions?

[hustlertwo]

Can they? Dunno. But it doesn't have any benefit going by RAW; someone who scrapes it off is still moving at half speed. And there's no mention of scraping removing the penalty to Dex. So I guess we'd say you can't do it, and Mav needs to redo his turn.

[Mavian]

Then we'll just move and ready an action

Ready an action to move if Dense attacks

[Psionic Dog]

Dense - Round 5

Move: Reload Crossbow

Ride south to N6/O7, then East out of LoS
half speed to N9/O10.

Assuming horsey still smells the other guy, blindly fire crossbow at T-8.

Hopefully that didn't trigger the ready action.
A bolt then comes flying out of the mist into T-8.

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
I'll let you roll the miss chance assuming Todd is still in T-8, and let you tell me if it hits.

Done.

Stats
Dense: Mounted in N9/O10
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 4 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 12/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

Yeah, just forgot about the match

Todd

Concealment [roll0] < 50 Misses
Move action: T8 to T10
Standard Action: Ready an action to move if LoS is established.

[hustlertwo]

Oh, Dense, your attack was a miss.

[Mavian]

Uh, he's not supposed to know that eh?

[hustlertwo]

Yes, he is. How do you think I found you in our match? The ruling is, he gets to know if it's a hit or a miss, regardless of sight. But there's no elaboration on misses; he wouldn't know if it was because of concealment, the roll being too low to clear the AC, or simply because the opponent wasn't there.

[Mavian]

Just noticed I forgot to tag an end of turn on that last post. But it is your turn.

[Psionic Dog]

Ah thanks.

Dense - Round 6

Refs
[roll0]
Did Dense here Todd move? Does the horse still smell Stranger Todd?

Not done, have ref question.

[Scorer]

Hi Ref Scorer

@Psidog

Given your check, yes, he moved

[Psionic Dog]

Refs
Musings: I don't think he could move as part of the readied action (unless the trigger was loose LoS) since there was no LoS for him to see the incoming attack. Mavian likes to ready actions, so Todd likely only moved 10 ft.
*checks map*

I'm guessing Todd either moved 5-10ft closer with hopes of ambushing Dense if he rides out of the clouds, or moved 5-10 ft further back in hopes of waiting out the entanglement duration. Since each has a very different response let me ask again:

1) Does the horse smell anything (besides itself and Dense)?
The horse has Scent, and precedents says riders know if their mounts smell anything other than the familiar (the rider). This would tell Dense if Todd was within 30ft or not.

2) "Dense hears movement" - more info please. Was the roll high enough to know which direction the steps went? Was it high enough to pinpoint the ending location? Or did Todd roll well enough on Move Silently that Dense only "heard movement west-ish (or south-ish) of himself"?

[Scorer]

Hi Ref Scorer

@Psionic Dog

He moved south of you... You hear only a few steps. Scent sense tingling! He's within 30'

Now, about the readied actions... Don't try to guess :smalltongue: The only way I'm telling you about aready actions is if you got LoS or otherwise affects initiative, etc etc... :smallyuk:

[Psionic Dog]

Thanky.

Dense - Continued

Ok,

Move: Reload Crossbow
Ride SE to R13/S14 and then south to U13/V14.

What comes next will depend if LoS was established.

Need a LoS check before ending.

[Sallera]

LoS is established as Dense reaches S13/T14. Todd is in T10, and his readied action triggers.

[Mavian]

Todd moves from T10 to U12, and then you can go on with what you where doing.

[Psionic Dog]

You were that far east? :smalleek:

Hmmm. Ok.

Dense - Continued

Fighting Defensively,
[roll0]
[roll1]

Auto-succeed on Fight with Mount:
[roll2]
[roll3]

Done.

Stats:
Dense: Mounted in N9/O10
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 4 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 12/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

If your in a square I can hit, I get an AoO for you shooting in melee.

Attack:
Damage: [roll3d6+4
You can roll concealment if that manages to hit you.

Todd - Round 7

If I can't win this match, I can at least make it expensive for you to replace your mount.

Attack your horse recovering expended maneuvers.

Attack: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]
You can also roll concealment for this if needed.

End of Turn
@Edit, I just realized that I rolled the damages wrong there, it should be 2d6+3 not 3d6+4. If your beside me I have to use my slam, not my axe.

Stats

Hp: 8/32
Ac: 13
Pos: U12
Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

[Psionic Dog]

That is a disturbing, yet brilliant tactic.
Anyway, what's with the +5 attack? Isn't Todd still entangled?

Dense - Round 7

AutoSucced on Fight with Mount
[roll0] [roll1]
[roll2] [roll3]
[roll4] [roll5]

Lets see what that does before posting rest of turn...

[Psionic Dog]

Hmm, if the Round 6 arrow hit that might just be game.

If not:

Horse and Rider 5-ft step up to R12/S13
Move: Dense Reloads [AoO]
Standard: Dense fires.

[roll0]
[roll1]

Done

Stats
Dense: Mounted in R12/S13
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 [+5 armor +1 shield +3 dex +1 size)
Prescience, offensive: Round 6 of 10

Heavy War Horse
HP: 12/30
AC: 16 (+2 armor +1 dex +4 nat -1 size)

[Mavian]

That should be game for you, my dice decided to fail my in that last round.

Now to wait for a level 3 tourny

[hustlertwo]

Todd takes a dirt nap, and Dense rides to victory!