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Aron Times
2009-11-08, 08:42 AM
The greatspear fighter is a a very effective MAD build. Being a fighter, he needs high strength and constitution. Wielding a greatspear means he needs medium dexterity and wisdom.

My preferred build for a greatspear fighter is a human with the following stats:

Strength 18
Constitution 14
Dexterity 13
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 13
Charisma 8

He needs to have 15 dexterity and 15 wisdom by the paragon tier for polearm feats, and 19 dexterity by the epic tier for Spear Mastery. These feats require high strength, but he already has a high strength so we we'll gloss over that.

Stat Increases:

4 - Strength and Wisdom (Wisdom 14)
8 - Strength and Dexterity (Dexterity 14)
11 - All (Wisdom and Dexterity 15)
14 - Strength and Dexterity (Dexterity 16)
18 - Strength and Dexterity (Dexterity 17)
21 - All + Strength and Dexterity (Dexterity 20)
24 - Strength and Wisdom (Wisdom 17)
28 - Strength and Wisdom (Wisdom 18)

Final Stats:

Strength 28
Constitution 16
Dexterity 20
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 18
Charisma 10

To take advantage of his decent all-around stats, he takes Jack of All Trades at the paragon tier, which gives him a +2 bonus on all untrained skills. At level 11, with Jack of All Trades, he has a +9 modifier on Stealth, Thievery, and Perception. An optimized rogue will have a +15 modifier on Stealth and Thievery and a +11 modifier on Perception. He isn't as good as the rogue, but he makes a decent substitute.

As for his powers, he can knock targets prone at-will and is a 5x5 cube of YOU SHALL NOT PASS. Nobody is getting through the reach of his greatspear. Also, the fighter's spear powers tend to target Reflex as opposed to AC, which is usually two or more points below the latter.

Discuss.

Grynning
2009-11-08, 12:35 PM
I too have found that MAD builds are pretty viable in 4th. I made one the day after Halloween, because we re-watched "Warlock" and remembered how crazy awesome Giles "Tell me your woes!" Redferne is in that movie. So I had to make him.

He uses a whip and a knife (and a weather vane) as his main weapons in the film, which are not the best pair of weapons for damage, but 4th editions Ritual Casting let me really represent him well. Avenger would have been a good fit flavor wise but Ranger gets better skills and doesn't have any flashy supernatural type powers.

On further review I should probably give him better Dex for his Whip attacks, but this is what I threw together. I was actually pretty amazed at how easy it was to represent a movie character in 4th. Of course he's not as optimized as a pure D&D character would be, but I would still play him.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Giles Redferne, level 16
Human, Ranger, Ruthless Punisher
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Occupation - Mystic Slayer (Arcana class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 8.


AC: 27 Fort: 29 Reflex: 26 Will: 26
HP: 110 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +15, Nature +17, Athletics +17, Heal +17, Perception +17, Endurance +13, Religion +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +12, History +10, Insight +12, Intimidate +7, Stealth +10, Streetwise +7, Thievery +10

FEATS
Human: Expert Tracker
Level 1: Human Perseverance
Level 2: Whip Training
Level 4: Whip Novice
Level 6: Ritual Caster
Level 8: Skill Training (Religion)
Level 10: Action Surge
Level 11: Bleeding Precision
Level 12: Unfailing Courage
Level 14: Prime Punisher
Level 16: Called Shot

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Shield of Blades
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
Ranger daily 1: Sudden Strike
Ranger utility 2: Arcane Mutterings
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike (retrained to Whip Snare at Whip Novice)
Ranger daily 5: Adaptive Assault
Ranger utility 6: Mighty Sprint
Ranger encounter 7: Twofold Flinch
Ranger daily 9: Dire Bear Maul
Ranger utility 10: Conviction
Ranger encounter 13: Pinning Strike (replaces Twofold Flinch)
Ranger daily 15: Arterial Strike (replaces Sudden Strike)
Ranger utility 16: Elemental Countermeasures

ITEMS
Demonbane Whip +3, Ritual Book, Holy Symbol, Dimensional Shackles (paragon tier), Lucky Charm +3, Dagger (2), Short sword, Earthhide Armor, Chain (10 ft.), Flint and Steel, Hunter's Kit, Hammer, Rare Herbs (Nature), Sanctified Incense (Religion), Alchemical Reagents (Arcana), Rations, Trail (10)
RITUALS
Brew Potion, Create Holy Water, Gentle Repose, Undead Ward, Delay Affliction, Iron Vigil, Magic Circle, Cure Disease, Find the Path, Remove Affliction, History Revealed, Mark of Justice

"Our interest lies in stopping those who would see all good falter. It lies in stopping the powers of misrule from coming of age. It lies in finding that damned book, and thwarting a vile beast of a man who shall not rest until God himself is thrown down, and all of creation becomes Satan's black hell besmeared farting hole!"

Asbestos
2009-11-08, 01:44 PM
Con isn't a secondary for fighters unless they are a BRV fighter. Str, Wis, Dex, Con would be how I'd put the stats in terms of priority.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-08, 01:47 PM
I've found that MAD builds pretty much don't exist in 4E, because other than qualifying for a feat or two, it's very rare for a build to effectively require more than two ability scores, and certainly not more than three. Essentially, buffing the other three scores doesn't really do anything for you.

For instance, it's not true for the greatspear that "being a fighter, he needs high constitution". Fighters get good hit points and surges precisely so they won't need high constitution. So a greatspear fighter can focus on str/wis or on str/dex; I don't count "qualifying for polearm momentum" to be truly MAD.

Likewise, the ranger posted doesn't strike me as particularly dependent on dexterity, and certainly not on con/int/wis.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-08, 09:57 PM
I've found that MAD builds pretty much don't exist in 4E, because other than qualifying for a feat or two, it's very rare for a build to effectively require more than two ability scores, and certainly not more than three. Essentially, buffing the other three scores doesn't really do anything for you.
What's the definition of MAD? I'd say a 3-stat character is sufficiently MAD for me.

Anyhoo, I find MAD characters are more prevalent, thanks to the importance of Ability Modifiers for skill checks.

Y'know, in the event you want your Cleric to be able to cast Rituals effectively - or for your Rogue to find traps :smalltongue:

Grynning
2009-11-08, 11:35 PM
Likewise, the ranger posted doesn't strike me as particularly dependent on dexterity, and certainly not on con/int/wis.

Since he's based on a movie character, I was trying to represent stuff he does in the movie. The high mental stats are to make his ritual casting better and to portray the kind of intellect and perception the character displays, and the whip attack power that I took uses Dex as its attack stat, as would his attacks with thrown daggers (his ranged weapon of choice, when not forced to use improvised ones). My point was is that even with the artificially imposed MAD, the character is still pretty viable.

If I was to actually use him in a game, I would probably drop Con and Wis down and have a bit more Str and better Dex for the whip thing, and I'd probably not use a short sword for a MH weapon because of the low base damage, but other than that it actually works ok - Redferne is a witch hunter who's a skilled ritualist, which this represents nicely.

cupkeyk
2009-11-09, 07:13 PM
From the behavior of many builds where their requirements peak at 15 at paragon and 17/19 at epic, many so called MAD builds end up SAD, which is not a bad thing.

I play a glaive trip build (using polearm momentum and heavy blade opportunity and polearm gamble) so far I have awesome defences with a middling array. Shifter Tempest Technique Fighter 20(18)STR, 13DEX, 15(13)WIS, pumping dex twice qualifies for Polearm Momentum at level8. For HP I got Auspicious Birth from Scales of War. ^_^

Mando Knight
2009-11-09, 07:42 PM
I play a glaive trip build (using polearm momentum and heavy blade opportunity and polearm gamble) so far I have awesome defences with a middling array. Shifter Tempest Technique Fighter 20(18)STR, 13DEX, 15(13)WIS, pumping dex twice qualifies for Polearm Momentum at level8. For HP I got Auspicious Birth from Scales of War. ^_^
:smallconfused:
Tempest Technique has no synergy with polearms. In fact, they're inherently contradictory, since a glaive is a single two-handed weapon, and Tempest Technique requires two one-handed weapons or a single double weapon.

cupkeyk
2009-11-09, 07:45 PM
oops, I wrote glaive, I meant zulaat from eberron player's guide. Its early morning in my side of the planet. I call it a steel paddle in game.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-10, 04:54 AM
Since he's based on a movie character, I was trying to represent stuff he does in the movie. The high mental stats are to make his ritual casting better and to portray the kind of intellect and perception the character displays,
I find that e.g. increasing your int by +1 doesn't make a noticeable difference in how well you do at rituals or int-based skills.

I do agree with the practice of giving e.g. a fighter some more points in int because you don't want to play a "dumb fighter" stereotype, but I find that mechanically, at least, it doesn't matter (not even if your fighter takes ritual caster and int-skills). So using the old maxim of "fluff is mutable" you can just say that the character is not book-smart but has common sense, which means he's "smart" because he's got a good wis score.