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Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 03:34 PM
Does anybody here have aq sugestion for a good animal form (low HD preferably) for an natural lycanthrope?

My lich in a gestalf campaing got destroyed (again) and I rolled a 10 on the d10 days to regenerate, this is a PbP campaing and we are have been six months (real life time) with just two days in game, so my DM told me to roll up a new character.

I have been itching to play a swift hunter build so I decided to do that, the problem it has is that it is pretty feat starved, so I though the other side (gestalf) could have something less feat intensive.

First I thought of pilling templates such as Half fiend, half dragon, etc but then I remembered one of my party mates is allready a half-fiend, half dragon shade (Some book of forgotten realms) so well not good. then Browsing over the SRD I got to the lycanthrope template and found that it could be both flavourful and effective.

The problem is that I am not sure of what would be a good base animal form, so I am asking the Playground for some imput.

Thanks in advance

Ubergeek
2009-11-08, 03:39 PM
Wolf is a classic.

Bat would be an interesting change, and kind of a "screw you, Vampires!"

A cat or raven also sounds interesting.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 03:43 PM
Wolf is a classic.

At first I thought of being a werewolf but that is a bit cliche, and I am trying to avoid that.


Bat would be an interesting change, and kind of a "screw you, Vampires!"

A cat or raven also sounds interesting.

OTOH I think the animal has to be within a size cathegory of you (IE small or large for a human) and all the animals you listed are tiny or diminutive

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-08, 03:44 PM
Riding dog> wolf.

JellyPooga
2009-11-08, 03:46 PM
Monitor lizard has only 3 HD and fairly respectable ability scores of +6 to Str and Con.

The big cats are always a favourite; Leopard and Cheetah also only have 3 HD, the former getting you a climb speed and the latter Trip and Sprint (as well as 50ft speed in animal form).

For slightly more peculiar, a Camel has +8 Str, +6 Dex and +4 Con for again 3 HD, as well as a 50ft land speed.

Crododiles are again 3 HD for +8 Str, +6 Con, an impressive Bite attack, Improved Grab and a Swim speed.

A Mule might be interesting and nets +6 to Str and Con.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 03:46 PM
Riding dog> wolf.

Can you please explain why everybody thnk/says that a Riding dog is better than a wolf?

Mongoose87
2009-11-08, 03:46 PM
Horse would be hilarious.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 03:50 PM
How can you calculate the ability bonuses for animal forms? IIRC is it was substracting -10 for even ability scores and -11 for odd abilitie scores.

Also do I still get special abilities such as pounce or trip in humanoid form? or do I only get access to them in animal/ hybrid form?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-08, 03:52 PM
Bear's quite nice if you want a Large Brawler type, it's also automatically LG aligned so most groups'll find it easier to fit in although if you've had a Lich running about YMMV.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 03:56 PM
Bear's quite nice if you want a Large Brawler type, it's also automatically LG aligned so most groups'll find it easier to fit in although if you've had a Lich running about YMMV.

The Srd says that aligment for lycanthrope can be arbitraly(S?) assigned and but that some creatures are more prone to create/spawn? good aligned lycanthropes .

Besides in the group we have a LE blackguard (The pile of templates mentioned in the OP) a NG Druid and my True neutral Lich. We got together more out of survival than similar goals

Johel
2009-11-08, 03:56 PM
Or you know... Rat :smallamused:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-08, 04:03 PM
The Srd says that aligment for lycanthrope can be arbitraly(S?) assigned and but that some creatures are more prone to create/spawn? good aligned lycanthropes .

Besides in the group we have a LE blackguard (The pile of templates mentioned in the OP) a NG Druid and my True neutral Lich. We got together more out of survival than similar goals

It does but it seems Tolkein casts a loooonnnggg shadow. In my brain at least.:smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2009-11-08, 04:03 PM
Were Riding dog might be fun. You get that trip ability if trained for war. Dogs are good usually though.

Or is that too similar to werewolf.
Were Hyena (2 HD) is like a wolf but better stats.

Were Crocoldile (3Hd) isn't bad. Improved grab.

Wolverine (3 HD) gives Rage.
Were Med Snake (2Hd) gives Poison bite.

Horny Lizard (1 Hd) can shoot blood (no damage to you, shakens foes). Covered in spikes so enemies take damahe to attack you.

Serval (a feral cat): (1Hd) pounce, improved grab, and rake.

Briaxlyshutltz (2 HD goat) that can knockback foes it hits with gore attack (basically bullrush with extra bonus) Inaddition, foe is knocked prone.



How can you calculate the ability bonuses for animal forms? IIRC is it was substracting -10 for even ability scores and -11 for odd abilitie scores.

Also do I still get special abilities such as pounce or trip in humanoid form? or do I only get access to them in animal/ hybrid form?
Positive bonuses only.
So a Were (non-Dire) Rat becomes +0 Str (even though rats have a penalty).

Pounce would be in hybrid/animal.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 04:06 PM
Were do you find the Horny lizard? sound interesting

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 04:18 PM
Dire animals are nice. Dire Bat, Dire Vulture, Dire Ape (you could make a saiya-jin wannabe this way :P), etc. work pretty well. Lots of them are pumped to appropriate size categories too, compared to their normal counterparts.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 04:20 PM
I am trying to avoid Dire animals to get a lower HD, I still want to get some class benefits from my other Gestalf side

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-08, 04:22 PM
Can you please explain why everybody thnk/says that a Riding dog is better than a wolf?

Same LA for better stats and all the same abilities. Also, people tend to ignore dog in cities, but a wolf would get skinned alive.

Someone please explain why bears are LG, but wolves are evil?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-08, 04:26 PM
Someone please explain why bears are LG, but wolves are evil?

JRR Tolkein

Octopus Jack
2009-11-08, 04:27 PM
were badger or wolverine would be kinda cool and good

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 04:30 PM
The dire Puma (Sandstorm) looks nice, it gives a good speed (50 ft.) climb speed (20 ft.) Pounce, improved grapple, rake and quite good ability bonuses +10 STR, +8 DEX +8 CON +2 WIS

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-08, 04:31 PM
JRR Tolkein

.....

Your joking, yes?

Mongoose87
2009-11-08, 04:33 PM
.....

Your joking, yes?

That's a negative.

Zaydos
2009-11-08, 04:34 PM
Someone please explain why bears are LG, but wolves are evil?

Partially Tolkien's werebear in the Hobbit, although it goes back to Norse myth. Hrolf Kralki's Saga has 2 mythical werebears (father and son) who were both very definitely lawful good (loyal to a fault, couldn't stand to see the underdog picked on, etc), yet in the Volsunga Saga donning belts to turn you into wolves turned you evil. Thus these both must be universal, obviously. I will admit European myths do pretty much say werewolf = evil. Werebear shows up less and is good.

Although mostlyharmful's response does present a simplified version.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 04:35 PM
JRR Tolkein

I haven't read Tolkien's books in a few years so can you please refresh my memory on the aligment of lycanthropes in Tolkien's Universe

Rhydeble
2009-11-08, 04:36 PM
I'm not very familiar with lycanthropes in D&D, but won't a were-T-Rex be really awesome?

streakster
2009-11-08, 04:37 PM
I haven't read Tolkien's books in a few years so can you please refresh my memory on the aligment of lycanthropes in Tolkien's Universe

There was a dude, who was a bear, and was good.



By the way, have you considered Entomanothropy? Like lycanthropy, but with insects! A favorite of mine.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 04:39 PM
I'm not very familiar with lycanthropes in D&D, but won't a were-T-Rex be really awesome?

it could be awesome but WAY out of my possibilities

in D&D lycanthropes use the base Animal HD +LA +3 to calculate the LA for being a lycanthrope, T-rex have 18hd so I can't be a weret-rex

Edit: No I have never considered Entomanothropy, but now that you put that on the table.....

hamishspence
2009-11-08, 04:41 PM
While the term "werewolf" is used- most of those mentioned (in The Silmarillion) are implied to be wolves that have been possessed by powerful spirits, rather than ones that can shapechange.

A little magic (in the case of Sauron), and a little magic plus the skin of the creature as well (in the case of Beren and Luthien) can change the shape of a character into that of a "werewolf" or, in Luthien's case, a "vampire"

streakster
2009-11-08, 04:48 PM
Let there be links!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0

mostlyharmful
2009-11-08, 05:02 PM
Although mostlyharmful's response does present a simplified version.

Not necessarily, just a foreshortened one. Seeing as how the DnD game was initially based around the works of a scholar or ancient and medieval European history and language it doesn't seem unreasonable to cut of the backtracking of the particulars at the modern rather than looking at his inspirations. Afterall Tolkein is on record as saying that while he used ancient sources for inspiration he was trying to create an entirely new mythos for the English speaking peoples.

Optimystik
2009-11-08, 05:14 PM
Horse would be hilarious.

Asswere FTW

The Glyphstone
2009-11-08, 05:17 PM
Dinosaurs are Animals.

Were-Fleshraker.

That is all.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-08, 05:44 PM
Horny Lizard is in Sandstorm (aka It's Hot Outside)

jamorris09
2009-11-08, 06:11 PM
I was thinking about playing some sort of Druid or ranger who controls the field while their eagle or whatever lifts their enemies into the air and drops them. But I'd never considered playing a lycanthrope version of this. Are there any reasonable examples that would let me do this?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 06:14 PM
I was thinking about playing some sort of Druid or ranger who controls the field while their eagle or whatever lifts their enemies into the air and drops them. But I'd never considered playing a lycanthrope version of this. Are there any reasonable examples that would let me do this?

I think you can use the Giant eagle as a base animal (I suppose it have MANY HD so your caster level would suffer quite a bit. Also there are some feats in Races of the Dragon that might let you fly with a heavy load

JellyPooga
2009-11-08, 06:21 PM
It might also help if we knew what your Base Race is...one were-animal might be good for a Half-Ogre, but rubbish for a Halfling.

I've always been tempted by the idea of a Poisondusk Lizardfolk Were-Swindlespitter myself.

+10 Dex is just a warm up. Uncanny Dodge for free as well as Weapon Finesse and Mobility as Bonus Feats is a satisfying apetiser. The main course is a Fort based poison spray which inflicts Blindness and Con damage in a 15ft cone combined with both a racial bonus to Con from Poisondusk Lizardfolk and the +2 Con from Swindlespitter. It's a once per 1d4 rounds too, so it's unlimited in its uses per day. At only 2 HD for the animal form too, it's a cheap lycanthropy, relatively speaking.

Asbestos
2009-11-08, 06:25 PM
I am trying to avoid Dire animals to get a lower HD, I still want to get some class benefits from my other Gestalf side

Yeah, but a lot of Dire animals don't have too many HD.

The following are 5HD or less
Dire Wolverine: 5 HD
Dire Weasel: 3 HD
Dire Rat: 1 HD
Dire Bat: 4 HD
Dire Badger: 3 HD
Dire Ape: 5 HD

I forget what the Dire critters from the other MMs are. As someone suggested, Dire-dinos can be pretty good. If only That Damn Crab wasn't vermin...

Grushvak
2009-11-08, 06:41 PM
As far as animal forms go, I believe this is the best one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZJxJDTcxu0

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 07:09 PM
If only That Damn Crab wasn't vermin...

ummm excuse my ignorance but who/what is that damn crab?

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 07:14 PM
ummm excuse my ignorance but who/what is that damn crab?

Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), an almost-guaranteed player death on appropriate CR, immune to practically everything a level 3 party can throw at it. For bonus points, throw it at level 1 party.

Basically, the most under-CRd thing ever.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 07:16 PM
Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), an almost-guaranteed player death on appropriate CR, immune to practically everything a level 3 party can throw at it. For bonus points, throw it at level 1 party.

Basically, the most under-CRd thing ever.

:eek:.....I am speechless

Grushvak
2009-11-08, 07:18 PM
Wasn't there a low-CR monster in Creature Collection (Sword & Sorcery book) that was even more overpowered? I can never remember the name.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-08, 07:19 PM
If only That Damn Crab wasn't vermin...

There is a template like Lycantrophe for vermin.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a
Entomanothrope (LA +2)

That Damn Crab is 7 HD though. Although, you can control other crabs no save for 1 hr at will.
You can then have an army of them.
Granted you'd be ECL 10 (1 human + 7 Crab +2 LA).

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-08, 07:22 PM
There is a template like Lycantrophe for vermin.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a
Entomanothrope (LA +2)

That Damn Crab is 7 HD though. Although, you can control other crabs no save for 1 hr at will.
You can then have an army of them.
Granted you'd be ECL 10 (1 human + 7 Crab +2 LA).

No problem for my character Gestalf and ECL 17 so I could use but it is far from what I imagined for my lycanthrope

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 07:42 PM
That Damn Crab is only impressive 'cause it has so high HD for such a low level. If you have to pay the iron price, it gets much worse.

Ravens_cry
2009-11-08, 08:59 PM
For slightly more peculiar, a Camel has +8 Str, +6 Dex and +4 Con for again 3 HD, as well as a 50ft land speed.

That would be just. . .Shupid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Sluggy_Freelance).:smallwink:
I wouldn't mind playing a were-rat, very sneaky. Weretiger sounds nice, as does a werebat. A entomanothropic werespider or werescorpion sounds most coolies.

Darcand
2009-11-08, 09:20 PM
First, the coolest lycanthrope I've ever encountered was from an old issue of Dungeon. The Baron was a werefruitbat. And I think he was insane.

Werelemmings are fun, because falling off cliffs is less effective. Wereseals/ bats are nice for the additional movement type. Werehorse was suggested as a joke, however, functioning as a mount for a character with the right fighing style can make the pair of you more powerful then the sum of your parts

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-08, 10:37 PM
That bug-lycanthropy is just about the coolest thing I've seen in a long time. It opens up so many possibilities for insectoid characters, beyond thri-kreen and dromites...

Also, a werehorse cohort would be the ultimate mount, really. Too bad there isn't a were-magical beast template, or else you could be a werepegasus.

Dimers
2009-11-08, 11:16 PM
By SRD, the base animal needs to be a carnivore or scavenger. That doesn't eliminate mounts entirely, but restricts the field, and also drastically reduces the number that would seem to 'fit in' in a civilized area.

Also by SRD, you don't get most of the animal's abilities unless you're in animal form. Hybrid misses out on a lot.

Dire bat and dolphin get blindsense in any form. Apes and dire apes get reach as well as climb in animal/hybrid form, and you can certainly make a case for them using weapons in animal/hybrid form. Yes, they eat meat. The cheetah can sprint once per hour in any form. The deinonychus gets amazing skill bonuses. Eagles can fly while transformed (duh). Snakes have both climb and swim speeds.

You need to pick a base animal within one size of yourself; I haven't seen any indication you can't "advance" the animal a hit die or two to change its size, which also changes your hybrid size and buffs Str and Con a lot. My preferences (conserving HD unless you get something awesome for it, and aiming at a high-level campaign) would be:

SMALL -- eagle
MEDIUM -- advanced (2HD) eagle, wolf, crocodile
LARGE -- deinonychus, advanced (4HD) wolverine, advanced (4HD) wolf, ape, dire ape, advanced (6HD) constrictor, dire wolf.

I like the wolves' trip ability a lot; if you don't care about that or don't expect to spend much time in animal form, drop them from the list.

Leon
2009-11-09, 02:36 AM
Were-Turtle
With levels in Ninja

charl
2009-11-09, 02:57 AM
I'm gonna say wereowl just for the awesome of it. And they do qualify, being birds of prey and all.

Also, consider the weresquid (squids are carnivores). It has 3 HD, but it gives you a 60 ft swim speed, +4 Str and +6 Dex, Improved Grab for free, and two abilities that you may argue work even on land as they don't actually say they only work underwater (ink cloud for concealment, and jet to move 240 ft in a round). Also you would look totally bizarre, which would be awesome.

Ravens_cry
2009-11-09, 03:14 AM
Also, consider the weresquid (squids are carnivores). It has 3 HD, but it gives you a 60 ft swim speed, +4 Str and +6 Dex, Improved Grab for free, and two abilities that you may argue work even on land as they don't actually say they only work underwater (ink cloud for concealment, and jet to move 240 ft in a round). Also you would look totally bizarre, which would be awesome.
Yeah, but your hybrid form would look like Dr. Zoidberg.
Whoopa Whoop Whoop! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYwbzANCBuU&feature=related)

mostlyharmful
2009-11-09, 10:47 AM
Yeah, but your hybrid form would look like Dr. Zoidberg.
Whoopa Whoop Whoop! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYwbzANCBuU&feature=related)

and the problem (other than the concentrated awesome)?:smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2009-11-09, 10:50 AM
and the problem (other than the concentrated awesome)?:smallbiggrin:
Umm. . .too much concentrated awesome is bad for the liver?:smallamused:

Fluffles
2009-11-09, 11:32 AM
MM3, Fleshraker dino :smallbiggrin:

Akal Saris
2009-11-09, 11:52 AM
I think you can use the Giant eagle as a base animal (I suppose it have MANY HD so your caster level would suffer quite a bit. Also there are some feats in Races of the Dragon that might let you fly with a heavy load

The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming!

(Sorry, I watched Return of the King last night, and this thread didn't have enough Tolkien yet IMO)

Fluffles
2009-11-09, 12:11 PM
Were-Dire Badger, incread the HD by 4 to gain a size increase, enjoy your new +12 str bonus :smallbiggrin:

Mongoose87
2009-11-09, 12:32 PM
and the problem (other than the concentrated awesome)?:smallbiggrin:

Remind, me, for humans, is disembowelment fatal?

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 12:34 PM
Remind, me, for humans, is disembowelment fatal?

Large bet on myself in round 1!!

Oh right, the bones, always with the bones. :smalltongue:

jiriku
2009-11-09, 12:58 PM
Hippopotamus.

Although then, beware of being rebuked by the scion of Tem-Et-Nu!

alchemyprime
2009-11-09, 12:58 PM
Horse would be hilarious.


OA had a werehorse. It licked corpses...


Also, fun idea: wereplatypus. Get a little hat and fight an evil but incompetent wizard.

(Platpus is the Hedgehog from DMG, but get rid of the quills, add a claw attack that deals poison like a small monstrous spider bite. Dragon said it is so IIRC.)

Also fun: werevelociraptor. Terrorize Randal Munroe. You're welcome.


Oh, oh! Use my favorite Eberron one! You'd need the Advance Bestiary from Green Ronin or a nice DM, but a Werewolfshark. Werewolf bit by a wereshark. Turns into a weresharkwerewolf, or as I call it, the werewolfshark. He hunts weresharks! And werewolfs! And hates all lycanthropes besides himself!
http://artbykaty.com/artwork/images/Bruce.jpg

Come on! Its awesome!

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 01:00 PM
Badger and baboon both have one HD, while the bat only has 1/4HD so maybe you could work with that to actually decrease the LA! While it has 5HD, a bison would definitely be pretty interesting. However I've got to say that when it comes to actual abilities that the large cats would seem the best bet. Be able to charge and make a full attack with pounce? Yeah, that's pretty awesome.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-09, 02:58 PM
Remind, me, for humans, is disembowelment fatal?

I suddenly feel warmly reassured by my one in six point seven billion other people annonymity.....:smalleek:

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-09, 04:56 PM
After consulting with my DM and other players I decided on a Were-Direpuma Black Blood Hunter (Prg Class form Player's Guide to Faerūn) now I can pounce in hybrid form!!!! and I have a climb speed!!!

alchemyprime
2009-11-09, 05:34 PM
I suddenly feel warmly reassured by my one in six point seven billion other people annonymity.....:smalleek:


No. You're in London. You narrowed it down to one in eight point two seven million. Makes the hunt a thousand times easier, give or take...

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-09, 05:36 PM
OA had a werehorse. It licked corpses...


Also, fun idea: wereplatypus. Get a little hat and fight an evil but incompetent wizard.



So....agent P?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 06:23 PM
I suddenly feel warmly reassured by my one in six point seven billion other people annonymity.....:smalleek:

In FATAL, disembowment isn't fatal ironically. Granted, you have to be playing FATAL so yeah...

flabort
2009-11-09, 07:21 PM
Huh, this idea of applying the were-something template twice intruiges me.
So, a table of forms is called for!

given Animals A and B are chosen for a human....

{table=head]form|no-A|half-A|all-A
no-B|human|hybrid A-human|Complete A
half-B|Hybrid B-human|Hybrid A-B-Human|Hybrid B-A
all-B|Complete B|Hybrid A-B|Full mix AB, no human[/table]

So, if Lion and Advanced (2HD) Eagle are chosen, the complete metamorphisis would end up looking like a gryphon, while either main hybrid would look like a bipedal lion or a harpy respectively. the combinational hybrid form would be like a furry human, with a massive mane and wings.

You know what, its too hard to make an example. but, as a question, how many levels of barbarian could you put on that?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-10, 02:21 AM
No. You're in London. You narrowed it down to one in eight point two seven million. Makes the hunt a thousand times easier, give or take...

And you believe what you read on the internet.... HA!:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Cyanic
2009-11-10, 01:06 PM
Were-skunk, enough said.