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Dragothien
2009-11-08, 07:53 PM
Well with my first real post to these boards, I'm asking for a little help on an Artificer build. Though I should start with a few notes:

1) It is a 3.5 campaign.

2) I am allowed just about any book from 3.5 and 3.0 within reason.

3) It is not an Eberron campaign setting, but my DM is letting me use the class and most of the material I need to support it from Eberron.

4) Magic Items are not buyable. Any magic item is going to either have to be crafted by me or found.

and finally...

5) The original goal of the character was to move into the Alchemist Savant prestige class, which is still the plan. However, having done more research, I am still greatly interested in taking advantage of the Artificer class.

Sorry to put you through the countdown, just thought it'd save time.

Now, from what I know of the class via research - Wand using blastificers are extremely popular and powerful in 3.5. I know this, and I'm considering it, although it was not really in my original vision to be using wands.

Originally, my intention was to have a character in which alchemy and technology of the age was of EXTREME interest. I.E. , my original intended approach was to have the potions, have an Arbalester or a few ( I can't help but think of the predator cannon in crossbow form and smile), and a repeating crossbow type weapon that I'd pump up with feats and infusions so that i could go around doing multiple ranged attacks with a lot of damage every round.

My questions start here:

1) Is my intended path feasible and effective? The roleplay of the character is important to me, but I want him to still be a useful.

2) If the answer to 1) is 'yes', can you offer any suggestions on Feat Progression? I have a limited number to work with and while some are obvious others I'm not sure on.

3) Would Blastificer completely blow my intended idea out of the water? While I wasn't originally planning at all to make use of wands, it is not out of character. I see the character being heavily interested in weaponry, technology *which is fairly magical anyways*, and keeping himself at a distance from his enemies. In short its a doable direction, just debating whether or not I should.

Well I think that is all for now. If there is anything I need to be more specific on please let me know. I'd love to hear all your advice!

ShadowFighter15
2009-11-08, 09:14 PM
I can't really comment much (never having used an artificer before), but I can comment on this bit:


3) Would Blastificer completely blow my intended idea out of the water? While I wasn't originally planning at all to make use of wands, it is not out of character. I see the character being heavily interested in weaponry, technology *which is fairly magical anyways*, and keeping himself at a distance from his enemies. In short its a doable direction, just debating whether or not I should.

It depends on your DM; the Blastificer gets most of its power from Metamagic Spell Trigger: the class feature that lets an artificer apply metamagic feats to wands and other spell trigger items. Now I don't know if it's been mentioned in official errata, but I read that the intention of the rule was that only one metamagic feat be applied per trigger.

Before this; the Blastificer could burn a lot of charges for something like a twinned-split-maximised scorching ray or some other spell metamagic'd up the wazoo. If your DM enforces the one metamagic per trigger limit, then the blastificer isn't as powerful (and it'll be cheaper in the long run since your wands'll last longer before being burnt out). It's still an effective path for an artificer, of course, and I personally see it as the main artificer archetype. Plus there's nothing stopping you from making a wand with a built-in metamagic feat and then using Metamagic Spell Trigger to add a second one.

How it compares with your crossbow-wielding idea, I have no idea. But if you have Dungeonscape available; that has rules that let you add a wand chamber to a weapon, so you could add that to your crossbow and treat the wand (which can still be boosted with Metamagic Spell Trigger) kind of like how you'd use an under-slung grenade launcher on an assault rifle in Call of Duty or something like that (probably not the best analogy, but you get my point).

PinkysBrain
2009-11-09, 03:20 AM
I personally think the "Same Effect with Differing Results" rule mean you can only apply one metamagic feat with metamagic spelltrigger and one more with metamagic item ... two metamagic feats keeps things interesting IMO (for a high feat investment you can throw on quicken too with Prophecy Artifex). Abilities which can be abused at any moment to just blow away any encounter are boring (Candle of Invocation for instance).

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:24 AM
Is wand mystery worth it for a wandificer? At first I was impressed by the +2 DC but the save for wands is so low anyway I fingured you wouldn't want spells that allow save anyway, so your taking it for the +2 CL.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-09, 04:16 AM
Boci, well it's a prerequisite for Cannith Wand Adept ... but otherwise I'd say no.

Dragothien, the Alchemist Savant is weak, which in itself is not a problem ... the problem is that it's class abilities will go unused. Making a weak class work can be fun, but making a weak class work by just ignoring it's class abilities entirely (except for +1 level spellcasting) doesn't seem much fun to me.

In theory you can force a lot of saves with spellvials, but you would expend a huge amount of money doing it (even more than blastificing). One lesser globe of invulnerability makes it all moot too. Making frequent use of Universal Potions will burn though your resources even faster. It's a NPC class IMO.

As for a bowificer ... perfectly doable. Important components for a bowificer build :

Persistent spell (although quicken spell and/or Prophecy Artifex from MoE can serve as a less cheesy alternative)
Belts of battle (MiC)
Hunter's Mercy (SpC)
Find the Gap (SpC)
Splitting weapon ability (CoR)
Smiting Spell (PHB2)
Unfettered Heroism (RoE)
Slaying Arrow (MoE)
Wand Sheath (Dungeonscape)
Wand Bracelet (MiC)
Glove of Storing
Spare Hand (MiC and MoE, in the latter one there is also a two handed version, if you use persistent spell this item works well with the Spell Flower spell from SpC so you can hold the charge on some infusions)

At low-ish level quickened Hunter's Mercy with arrows with X Burst abilities on them is probably your best bet (MiC has a couple of great weapon abilities which activate on crits).

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 04:20 AM
If you pretend your wands are guns (or bazookas, or lascannons, or...), you could have a lot of fun.

Dragothien
2009-11-09, 11:35 AM
Thanks everyone, I really like the feedback.

Shadow - Fitting the wand into the crossbow itself like a grenade launcher is pretty epic, I might have to do that.


Pinkys, I appreciate the analysis and all the reccomendations. I will definitely look into that.

As for the Alchemist Savant class sucking, that is dissapointing. Fortunately my DM is all about good roleplay, so perhaps I can figure something out to make use of it with minimal level/feat dedication to the actual prc.

I know I've heard multiple stories of people winning the day with the 'potions all mixed for disasterous results' tactic, but that's a one time thing and hardly what I had in mind.

Has anyone used potions effectively? Truth be told my DM typically discourages them anyways.

Dragothien
2009-11-10, 04:03 PM
So - with the approach in mind being a bit of a combination between bowificer/blastificer..I'm trying to find a good number of feats that are either neccessarry to the goal or apply to both tactics.

So far I'm thinking the following feats are pretty important:

1)Exotic weap proficiency - For the repeater
2)point blank shot - Prereq + beneficial to wand and crossbow
3)precise shot - Beneficial to wand and bow
4)Improved homunculus - Will save me some of my infusions per day if my crossbow buddy shooting with me can give his own bolts a bonus
5)rapid shot - The More bolt/wand shots per round the better?
6)at least 1 Metamagic (not sure which yet) to boost the wand
7 & 8)Weapon focus and or specialization? Just trying to boost attacks here
9)The additional action point feat? (forget what its called) AP is AP

I liked some of Pinkys reccomendations though some of that list were spells I'm not sure I'd have access too?

If i took all of the feats above that'd be 8 feats. How might I finish the list out? Or what should I replace?

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 04:38 PM
If you craft yourself bracers of archery you can pick up a comp longbow that you can make yourself so that the feat you'd spend on the heavy repeater would be replicated (well, in part) with an item instead so the feat could be used elsewhere. That's an option, anyway.

I am kinda partial to the underslung grenade launcher/wand image myself though...

Fireball? Energy Substitution'd Sonic Fireball? hmm...

I'd recommend against weapon focus and specialization though, flat out. I'm pretty sure your personal "X-Bane" infusion more than makes up for those two.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-10, 06:52 PM
1)Exotic weap proficiency - For the repeater
Repeater Crossbow : 1 feat to be able to reload 5 bolts as a free action before wasting a full round action
Light Crossbow : 1 feat to be able reload new bolts as a free action period
Normal bow : A 5000 gp item (lesser bracers of archery) to be able to string an arrow as a free action

The repeater crossbow is the sucky version of the sucky version of the bow. They are the monk of weapons. Hunter's Mercy doesn't work with crossbows either. How about being a warforged with a bow as an embedded component? (Some people do use horizontal bows in real life too, so perfectly possible to have it mounted on the topside of the wrist.)

7 & 8)Weapon focus and or specialization? Just trying to boost attacks here
Don't do this ... an artificer doesn't take weapon focus, he casts divine power or find the gap or true strike ... as swift actions (or with persistent spell he can have the former two on all day).

He certainly doesn't care about the piddling little damage weapon specialization can add.

9)The additional action point feat? (forget what its called) AP is AP
Again don't do this ... create some minor schemas (MoE) of Unfettered Heroism (RoE) instead.

I liked some of Pinkys reccomendations though some of that list were spells I'm not sure I'd have access too?
"2) I am allowed just about any book from 3.5 and 3.0 within reason."

You are an artificer, you have access to any spell on the books one way or another.

The fact that you didn't even mention quicken or persistent spell (to cast spells which synergize with archery) makes me think you are missing something. A Xificer is an artificer which uses the considerable power at his disposal to be good at doing X. That power for the most part is magic items and the ability to cheaply apply metamagic feats to wands&staffs. The Weapon Augmentation infusions are nice, but they certainly aren't the power you need to be able to be passable at archery.

Being able to put weapon enhancements on arrows and taking some archery feats does not a Bowificer make ... you will do rather substandard damage this way.

Dragothien
2009-11-11, 11:04 AM
The unofficial artificier guide reccomended stacking damage, hence me picking the things I did. All were reccomended feats there.

I also did mention metamagic I just hand't really looked at them all yet to decide which.

I understand that Artificers can craft and use magic items with spells from pretty much any list, but how would you go about casting the spells you mentioned? Can you jsut do it in place of an infusion or are you using scrolls or wands?

I appreciate the suggestions.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-11, 11:52 AM
Just for example, going with the warforged with armbow theme. Lets use Weapons of Legacy, it's the only non-variant/custom way of getting a UMD bonus for wands.

So a Warforged Artificer 7 with a +1, Morphing (Underdark) attached component bow (when you aren't in danger you can morph it into a gauntlet to get rid of the bow) with +5 UMD as his Weapon of Legacy. Put a wandsheath (Dungeonscape) on it with a wand of Hunter's Mercy. Get a Spare Hand (MiC and MoE) to be able to quickly pull out wands and scrolls without wasting actions and a couple belts of battle (MiC).

So, on the first round of combat your spare hand pulls out either an (eternal) wand or scroll of find the gap (the wand is pretty expensive at this level). You cast it as a standard action, activate your belt and attack. On the next round you metamagic spelltrigger quicken a hunter's mercy and attack. Your first attack each round attacks touch AC and after the first round it crits (which makes X Burst enhancements work really well for you).

PS. don't forget the lesser bracer of archery of course.