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madtinker
2009-11-08, 10:16 PM
I've heard/read lots that the Monk is underpowered. Based on my meager experience in brazilian ju-jitsu, I have an idea to fix it, but no stats.

In real martial arts, there are lots of ways to do massive damage very quickly. Give monk-only massive damage grapple feats, along with a variety of specialized strikes, and I think it wold be viable again. Comments?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-08, 10:18 PM
Right on schedule.

Xenogears
2009-11-08, 10:19 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238

This is fairly similiar to what you describe and sounds awesome.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-08, 10:23 PM
Obligatory Unarmed Swordsage reference.

olentu
2009-11-08, 10:23 PM
You know this really does sound like the unarmed swordsage what with the specialized strikes and grapple damage options being similar to maneuvers and that one stance that gives constrict.

madtinker
2009-11-08, 10:25 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238

This is fairly similiar to what you describe and sounds awesome.

Yeah, about like that. Thanks for the link.

infinitypanda
2009-11-08, 10:29 PM
Right on schedule.

Oh, it's Sunday night already? So it is.

madtinker
2009-11-08, 10:39 PM
Oh, it's Sunday night already? So it is.

Am I missing something?

streakster
2009-11-08, 10:41 PM
Hey, Frank and K's Monk remake reference! Question as to the time necessary for the appearance of Giacomo.

Humorous jest at the frequency of monk discussion threads.


What you're missing: Yeah, we have "Monk Threads a lot here. They generally devolve into huge arguments over minutiuea minutea minituea unimportant details fairly quickly. Don't take what's about to happen personally.

UglyPanda
2009-11-08, 10:49 PM
We should start a giantitp bingo game

Possible spaces:
Monk thread
ToB thread
Pathfinder thread
Giacomo posts something about monks
Tippy posts something about wizards
"Is (melee option here) broken?" thread

Mongoose87
2009-11-08, 10:51 PM
Obligatory Unarmed Swordsage reference.

Complaint that ToB is too Anime-like.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-08, 10:53 PM
Complaint that ToB is too Anime-like.

Points out the existence of feats that allow you to run up walls, skill tricks that allow people to do the same, the monk class, and Evan's Black Tentacles.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-11-08, 10:57 PM
Points out the existence of feats that allow you to run up walls, skill tricks that allow people to do the same, the monk class, and Evan's Black Tentacles.

I laughed at the tentacles:smallbiggrin:

madtinker
2009-11-08, 11:03 PM
How about PbP that disappear a few rounds after beginning/never get off the ground? I've never gotten past the first combat scene...

UglyPanda
2009-11-08, 11:05 PM
Those might as well be a free space. Those and happy birthday threads show up often enough that they'd be no fun as a normal space.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:09 PM
Points out the existence of feats that allow you to run up walls, skill tricks that allow people to do the same, the monk class, and Evan's Black Tentacles.

comment to the effect of how Martial Initiates are all basically "mages with weaker spells".

another day, another monk fix.

Roland St. Jude
2009-11-08, 11:12 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay folks, please drag it back on topic.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:19 PM
sorry about that, just couldn't resist. Ok, back on topic in 3... 2...

Monk fixes offered out there

- play a swordsage from ToB
- Frank and K's monk
- Fax's monk

actually, you know what, we really should just have a thread that compiles all of the monk homebrew's and fixes in one place. that way when one of these pop up, we can just drop the link in.

Random NPC
2009-11-08, 11:20 PM
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X with the Talashatora Feat

A monk more monk than a monk

UglyPanda
2009-11-08, 11:22 PM
Right, on topic...

Monks aren't as good as Wizards, they aren't even as good as Barbarians, grappling sucks, melee combat is overrated, use unarmed Swordsage instead, yadda yadda yadda, nerf magic, The Aristocrats!

Wait, wrong punchline.

Anyway, fixing the Monk requires a massive overhaul.

Grappling is a bad idea since most powerful enemies either fly or are too damn big to grapple, also bears. That was not a non sequitur, a Druid with a bear companion outclasses everything at grappling.

Being able to do massive damage doesn't really help because massive singular sources of damage gives diminishing returns. It doesn't matter if you deal 500 damage to one source every turn if everything you fight has less than fifty hp and you fight twenty of the little blighters every battle. And there are already methods of dealing massive amounts of damage in melee, so you're only really competing with something similar to itself.

jiriku
2009-11-08, 11:24 PM
We should totally sticky all the monk fixes in a single thread, it's such a common topic.

Commentary: I'm currently DM'ing a player with a monk 2/unarmed swordsage 4, with a trial variant that grants skirmish with monk weapons instead of an unarmed strike progression, and focuses on throws. The player is very pleased with his character, and has so far found something interesting and effective to do in most fights. Gaining Dex + Wis*2 to AC makes him pretty durable too. It's still in the trial stages, but the early results are promising.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-08, 11:26 PM
I think the main issue people have with the monk is that it's MAD and the class features it gets do not seem very coherent.

If you made the class features more like that of the wuxia monk, allowed more uses/day of abilities, and focused more off of Wisdom such as attack bonus and damage, people would complain less about it.

Tavar
2009-11-08, 11:27 PM
Just to give some link's,
Fax's How it Should be Monk. Note that this version uses some d20r material, but it's easy enough to use it in a normal game; simply give it 6x skills per level from the monk list, and remove prowess.

Lord Iames Osari's Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2276450&postcount=33).

Lord Iames Osari's Monk Psionic Monk

Pramxnim's Tattooed Monk The PrC turned into a base class.

Pax_Chi's Monk of the Sublime Way. A monk rebuild that uses ToB. No, it's not a unarmed swordsage, it can actually do new things.

PairO'Dice Lost's Incarnum Monk Variant
There are some others on the board as well. I know PairO'Dice Lost made an Incarnum focused one, and Sinfire Titan is working on one as well.


Edit: Added PairO'Dice Lost

Doc Roc
2009-11-08, 11:33 PM
This (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en) is the Monk fix that we use for the test of spite. Testing has shown that it's almost enough, but could use some fine-tuning and some more long-term support.



Consider the amount changed against your proposed changes, and I suspect you can deduce my opinion.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:34 PM
I'm going to save Tavar's post for all future references.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-08, 11:36 PM
One major problem. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is great IRL.

IRL doesn't have a single ability that instantly says "no" to anyone that tries to grab you.

Freedom of Movement relegates this fix to the power tier of the Enchantment school.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-08, 11:39 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238

This is fairly similiar to what you describe and sounds awesome.

Hey, thanks.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:41 PM
One major problem. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is great IRL.

IRL doesn't have a single ability that instantly says "no" to anyone that tries to grab you.

Freedom of Movement relegates this fix to the power tier of the Enchantment school.

IRL people also don't try to wrestle bears and other ridiculously large creatures like an elephant.

Doc Roc
2009-11-08, 11:45 PM
IRL people also don't try to wrestle bears and other ridiculously large creatures like an elephant.

In short, grapple is terrible. Like, really godawful. You'd need to rewrite it, or lay out some sophisticated abilities. Having tried both, and done the latter, I recommend merely avoiding it.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-08, 11:46 PM
In short, grapple is terrible. Like, really godawful. You'd need to rewrite it, or lay out some sophisticated abilities. Having tried both, and done the latter, I recommend merely avoiding it.

Gotcha covered.

Tavar
2009-11-08, 11:47 PM
You know, people should also try the search function. Just restrict the search to the hombrew board, searching the titles only, and the keyword Monk. You get 22 entries. If you go search by post, you do get alot more, but there's so much extra stuff that's it's almost worthless. Granted, that's with one search term using the most basic options available. I'm sure that there's a way to narrow it a bit.

Oh, and I added PairO'Dice Lost's incarnum monk to my earlier post.

Edit; apparently fix is to common/short. Variant works, though.

elliott20
2009-11-08, 11:51 PM
for some odd reason, the search function doesn't actually work for me. I'm not sure if it's because I'm just an idiot who can't use the search function properly or if it's because of some weird configuration issue.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-08, 11:54 PM
Can you reverse the polarity?

(Enable cookies)

Tavar
2009-11-08, 11:54 PM
Google search also works well, though you get alot more junk. Still, using this search: monk (fix OR variant) homebrew site:giantitp.com got me several good results, with PairO'Dice's coming in at the top spot.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-09, 12:03 AM
IRL people also don't try to wrestle bears and other ridiculously large creatures like an elephant.

Yup. IRL people don't try to sway warriors to their own gain with a few intoxicating magic words...

Oh wait, 1-900 lines. Never mind.

root9125
2009-11-09, 12:03 AM
Obligatory attempt at humor regarding alternate meanings of the term "fixing".

Unarmed swordsage reference.

Reference to ninjas.

Tavar
2009-11-09, 12:05 AM
Obligatory attempt at humor regarding alternate meanings of the term "fixing".

Unarmed swordsage reference.

Reference to ninjas.

Already mentioned.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 12:06 AM
Can you reverse the polarity?

(Enable cookies)

huh... now it works. Well then, another problem solved! Thanks, Captain Pharaoh's Fist!!

Harperfan7
2009-11-09, 12:24 AM
Here's my monk fix...

-SR is only ever beneficial.
-gain +4 untyped bonus to all physical ability scores as long as you are a single class monk.
-5th: free standard action (takes place of any immediate actions) once per round 1/wis mod/day.
-10th: free move action (takes place of any immediate actions) once per round 1/wis mod/day. Cannot have a free move and standard in the same round. Uses from the same pool, counts as 2 uses.
-15th: free full round action (takes place of any immediate actions) once per round 1/wis mod/day. Uses from the same pool, counts as 3 uses. (Doesn't stack with the other free whatever abilities)
-Wholeness of Body: Gain regeneration for a number of rounds equal to monk level per day, at 5hp per round. Free action, used a round at a time - can be consequtive or not, kicks in automatically if brought below 0 hit points.
-Quickening palm: 1/day/5 levels. (cannot delay effect)
-Abundant step: 1/day/4 levels.
-Ki Strike: can ignore 1 type of DR per 5 monk levels. (still bludgeoning though)
-Perfect self grants DR 10/adamantine.
-Speed only increases by 5ft. for every 10ft. (so 60ft. at 20th)

Draz74
2009-11-09, 01:02 AM
Already mentioned.

As if Unarmed Swordsage only comes up once per thread? :smallconfused:

My quick-and-easy Monk fix:


6+INT skill points/level
Flurry of Blows usable on any attack (1/round), not just full attack
Monk is proficient with unarmed strike :smalltongue:
Monk's unarmed strike can be enchanted like a masterwork weapon
Monk deals "unarmed damage" with any monk weapon, but can only make extra Flurry attacks with unarmed strike (or shuriken)
AC bonus is +1 per three Monk levels (instead of current progression)
Spell Resistance does not block beneficial effects
Perfect Self DR changed to 10/-

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-09, 06:30 AM
A quicker and easier fix:
Obligatory Unarmed Swordsage Reference

Draz74
2009-11-09, 12:21 PM
Mine was designed for people without access to ToB. :smalltongue:

Godskook
2009-11-09, 02:36 PM
Commentary: I'm currently DM'ing a player with a monk 2/unarmed swordsage 4, with a trial variant that grants skirmish with monk weapons instead of an unarmed strike progression, and focuses on throws. The player is very pleased with his character, and has so far found something interesting and effective to do in most fights. Gaining Dex + Wis*2 to AC makes him pretty durable too. It's still in the trial stages, but the early results are promising.

Except you're the only DM I've ever heard of that allows swordsage and monk AC bonuses to stack. The only way I know of to benefit from both is using a feat to key the monk bonus off of int, which gets int+dex+wis to AC.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 02:55 PM
Spell Resistance does not block beneficial effects



I would allow the monk to raise and lower it as a free action. That would allow the roleplay-heavy monks to say no to being buffed before charging the dragon or minotaur or whatever.

The exception would be when he's unconscious, when it behaves like yours. Otherwise, I like your fixes.

Jayabalard
2009-11-09, 03:10 PM
PointsStatement pointing out the existence of feats that allow you to run up walls, skill tricks that allow people to do the same, the monk class, and Evan's Black Tentacles.Informative statement, showing this statement broke the previous pattern of describing the statements that would be made, and a declaration letting you know that someone has fixed that problem for you.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-09, 03:40 PM
Informative statement, showing this statement broke the previous pattern of describing the statements that would be made, and a declaration letting you know that someone has fixed that problem for you.
Angry accusation of straw man, followed by paraphrase of earlier declaration used as proof by circular reasoning. Amusing anecdote of a semi-related awesome action that happened in one's home campaign ten years ago. And some smug gloating.

Ormagoden
2009-11-09, 03:41 PM
here
Tome Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk%2C_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29)

And here
Pugilist (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pugilist_%283.5e_Class%29)

And Here
Ruffian (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ruffian_%283.5e_Class%29)

AND HERE!
Scrapper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Scrapper_%283.5e_Class%29)

That should about cover it...

Whats the over under on the next thread?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-09, 03:55 PM
Commentary: I'm currently DM'ing a player with a monk 2/unarmed swordsage 4, with a trial variant that grants skirmish with monk weapons instead of an unarmed strike progression, and focuses on throws. The player is very pleased with his character, and has so far found something interesting and effective to do in most fights. Gaining Dex + Wis*2 to AC makes him pretty durable too. It's still in the trial stages, but the early results are promising.


Except you're the only DM I've ever heard of that allows swordsage and monk AC bonuses to stack. The only way I know of to benefit from both is using a feat to key the monk bonus off of int, which gets int+dex+wis to AC.

There is no way for the two Wis to AC bonuses to stack; one is for when the character is unarmored, the other is for when the character is in light armor.

Draz74
2009-11-09, 04:05 PM
I would allow the monk to raise and lower it as a free action. That would allow the roleplay-heavy monks to say no to being buffed before charging the dragon or minotaur or whatever.

Semantics, really. Since I assume the Monk himself would be the one to decide what effects count as "beneficial."

The issue with your version is that free actions can only be taken on a character's own turn, so if a Monk lowered his SR in order to let the Cleric buff him, he would also be vulnerable to hostile spells for one round, until it is again his turn and he can raise SR back up.


Otherwise, I like your fixes.

Thanks. Of course it's always hard to know where to stop; these are kind of the "minimum changes to make the class functional." Then I would get into steps to make the class more elegant design (deleting or combining useless abilities, or buffing them (e.g. Quivering Palm usable more often); Slow Fall in particular is a very annoying progression; I'd prefer that it just reduced falling damage by half at low levels, and gave immunity to falling damage at high levels).

AslanCross
2009-11-09, 04:22 PM
GITP never lets me down. :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2009-11-09, 04:26 PM
Full BAB, flurry on Standard Action. Done.

srsly. :smallwink:

Oh, and proficiency with unarmed, and let it be enchanted, and SR is only when you want it. But those kind of go without saying.

Fax Celestis
2009-11-09, 04:30 PM
GITP never lets me down. :smallbiggrin:

Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ20N6syuwc) to this conversation.

OracleofWuffing
2009-11-09, 05:29 PM
Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ20N6syuwc) to this conversation.

Best. Monk fix. Ever.

jiriku
2009-11-09, 05:56 PM
Except you're the only DM I've ever heard of that allows swordsage and monk AC bonuses to stack. The only way I know of to benefit from both is using a feat to key the monk bonus off of int, which gets int+dex+wis to AC.

/joins meme

Self-observation of poster's own skills as a DM, which are presumed to be superior to the skills of all others. Childish descent into leetspeak.


There is no way for the two Wis to AC bonuses to stack; one is for when the character is unarmored, the other is for when the character is in light armor.


Expression of contempt for WotC's cryptic system of stacking similar class features.
Lengthy comparison of AC of swordsage, unarmed swordsage, monk, and monk/unarmed swordsage, in which standard swordsage is found to have superior AC.
Observation that many other posters have presented house rules for the monk.

Comment that the player in question purchased a box of Tollhouse Chewy Chocolate Chip cookies, a movie-size box of Kit-Kat candies, and a 2-liter bottle of Diet Coke for the DM's consumption.

madtinker
2009-11-15, 08:05 PM
On the subject of abnormally large creatures, is there a mechanic for jumping down his throat and tearing him apart from the inside? If not, there should be!

The Big Dice
2009-11-15, 08:27 PM
My monk fixes (bear in mind these come from a more down to earth and "real kung-fu" appraoch and are all Core)

1: Full BAB

2: Expand the weapon lists the class allows to include Long and Short bows, Darts, Rapier (T'ai Chi sword), Scimitar (Dau), Trident (Tiger Fork), Glaive (Naginata). Red tassels on melee weapons are mandatory :smalltongue:

3: Allow Fighter Bonus Feats to be chosen whenever a feat can be picked, as well as the stuff that's normally allowed.

It's not going to push the Monk into Tier 1. But then, nothing short of a page 1 rewrite is really going to seriously improve them. What it does do is make them feel a little more like characters from a kung fu or wuxia movie.

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-15, 08:31 PM
Here's another "Fix"; (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436) gets rid of MAD, completely wisdom dependent and gives full BAB and removes some out of place class features like Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Be forewarned, however, you might need some more space for feats...

Thurbane
2009-11-15, 08:38 PM
If you feel the Monk is hopelessly underpowered (which I don't personally, but anyway), I'd say give him full BAB, and the ability to make a full attack on a charge (similarly to the Battle Dancer).

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-15, 08:51 PM
Ehh, full attack on a charge is pretty powerful if you ask me. Just change flurry of blows from being a full attack to simply an extra one (or two or three) and I think we're in business.

And I think someone said it before but I think that most people don't believe that the monk is strictly underpowered, they just think it has too much MAD. It needs strength for damage and wisdom and dex to keep a decent AC. And because the AC ends up being subpar anyways, a Consitution is also necessary for a monk. It ends up being very hard to make a monk on par with any other character.

Thurbane
2009-11-15, 09:03 PM
Ehh, full attack on a charge is pretty powerful if you ask me.
True, but there's already quite a few ways to get it in 3.5, so I don't think that adding it as a class feature for a Monk would be that bad.

lsfreak
2009-11-15, 09:06 PM
True, but there's already quite a few ways to get it in 3.5, so I don't think that adding it as a class feature for a Monk would be that bad.

This, plus it's one of the major flaws in 3.5 to begin with. A spellcaster can unleash their full power on a standard action, while melee need a full-round action. Imagine if wizards could EITHER cast a high-level spell, or move and cast a spell 3-4 levels lower. Oh and they have to be in melee.

By turning charge into a full attack, you've evened the field significantly.

Indon
2009-11-16, 09:34 AM
There's a zillion ways you could make the Monk more powerful, falling into the two broad categories of giving them more damage, and giving them more to do.

The one I've rather liked recently, and it even makes the Monk more Wuxia than the Swordsage:
Grant the class full Cleric spellcasting, domains optional. Optionally (mostly for humor potential) reflavor verbal components to yelling and somatic components to punching things or something.

Spoilered for being only peripherially relevant to monks.


We should start a giantitp bingo game

Possible spaces:
Monk thread
ToB thread
Pathfinder thread
Giacomo posts something about monks
Tippy posts something about wizards
"Is (melee option here) broken?" thread

Civil and intellectual D&D edition war thread
Zombie thread (Locked or otherwise)
Metathreads

Roderick_BR
2009-11-16, 10:25 AM
We should start a giantitp bingo game

Possible spaces:
Monk thread
ToB thread
Pathfinder thread
Giacomo posts something about monks
Tippy posts something about wizards
"Is (melee option here) broken?" thread
"Is it time already?/Again?/general disrespect" space... That one would fill up quickly.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-16, 10:50 AM
Then take a drink!

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 09:17 PM
My solution for fixing the monk?

Tin-snips.

Once it's outlived its usefulness (about 2nd level), it's off to the knackers.