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Asklepian
2009-11-08, 11:12 PM
Howdy folks,

Our party in an ongoing campaign has accidentally unleashed the Xixecal on the world, which I consider somewhat regrettable. Not my fault.

Anyway, we need to kill it pretty much as fast as possible. Consider us having about a month of time available with which to plan and put things together. We have 500,000g available all told to spend on things. Unfortunately, the big problem here is that we're not quite epic level yet, and we're dealing with an epic level monster.

So, here's where I'll break down the party that we already have available:

Level 18 Githyanki Duskblade (mildly optimized)
Level 19 Elven Ranger 10/Horizon Walker 9 (not optimized)
Level 18 Human Cleric (mildly optimized)
Level 18 Half-Celestial Sorcerer (not optimized; built as blaster)


Core rules only, except:
Epic Level Handbook
Psionics Handbook
PHB 2


Other things might be allowed by the GM on a case by case basis.

So... that's what we've got going on. I'm excited to hear what you guys can come up with. Thank you for your help ahead of time.

Oh, and if you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

TheCountAlucard
2009-11-08, 11:26 PM
Some other details would be handy here; what world is it? Any odds of a divine intercession? Are you guys the highest-level characters around, or are there epic wizards going around, doing stuff? How much gear do you already have?

Dracomorph
2009-11-08, 11:56 PM
Can the sorcerer chain-gate Solars?

I mean, it's an abusive, munchkiny tactic, but you're facing an epic monster.

Milskidasith
2009-11-09, 12:00 AM
It hits you with it's blasphemy and you all die.

No seriously, that's it. I really can't see a way to win unless your DM intentionally plays it as dumber than it is.

UglyPanda
2009-11-09, 12:07 AM
Ah, Xixecal (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicMonsters.html#xixecal), an abomination.

Let's look at the stats.

*Looking*

*Looking*

*Looking*

Yeah, you're hosed. You need Energy Immunity (SpC pg. 80) on your entire party to get close to it for starters. Don't even think about melee with this thing, so that leaves the Horizon Walker as an item caddy or cheerleader. You can't hide from it due to the massive listen and spot checks as well as True Seeing. You have no chance of beating the spell resistance, so you need to use spells that work around it...

If your DM is forgiving, he might let you do a sidequest to reseal the thing. If he isn't (Or he's just stupid), then you either need to cheese it or give up, because that Blasphemy is gonna kill you.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-09, 12:13 AM
That, or hire an NPC Frenzied Berserker Ubercharger with a fiery weapon to oneshot it.

AstralFire
2009-11-09, 12:19 AM
If it wasn't for the core-rules-only bit, I'd say it's time one of you started chanting Pazuzu.

UglyPanda
2009-11-09, 12:19 AM
Is it even possible with an ubercharger? I can't figure out the math.

The enemy:
AC 58 and 1,676 hp, 20 DR, Regeneration 30

Chrono22
2009-11-09, 12:22 AM
Yes it's possible. Whether that holds true for your party depends on the group composition and individual skill.
Looking over your classes... no. You're hosed... unless the sorc has access to some wish spells and is willing to take a big exp & gp hit.

Tavar
2009-11-09, 12:23 AM
I'm not sure if you can do it with the rules allowed, but one version of the ubercharger apparently did over 40,000 damage per round, and it'd be easy at that level to get some form of wraithstrike. Thus, Touch AC of 3.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-09, 12:23 AM
In core, probably not, since that rules out Leap Attack and (more importantly) Pounce. I didn't read the OP fully enough.

With a generic barb8/FB10, you could be dumping 18 points into a ShockTrooper Leap Attack for +144 per swing from Power Attack alone, x5 with Haste for about 720 damage. A Flaming weapon will bypass its Regen and double the damage, so that would make 1440 damage from the Power Attack. That leaves 246 damage to do, over 5 attacks, roughly 50 damage per swing - easily doable.

EDIT: With the DR, another 100 damage needs to be dealt, so effectively 70 per swing without including Power Attack. Harder, but possible.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 12:35 AM
Blasphemy only works within 40 feet, so if you can keep your distance you're OK. Sure, it has 140 ft speed and Haste. It doesn't have Fly. Cast Fly or Overland Flight on the entire party, and stay above it.
It does have means to get you there, though. It can summon a white dragon 5/day. Have scrolls of Dismissal or Banishment handy for them. Use Mind Blank so it can't use Dominate Monster or Hold Person on you. Meteor Swarm is still an issue, but you can use Spell Immunity, Rings of Counterspells, or Energy Immunity for that.

The problem now is its DR, regeneration, and fast healing. To get through the DR and regen with cheap weapons you can get +1 Outsiderbane weapons and cast Greater Magic Weapon, Bless Weapon, and the Lawful equivalent of bless weapon on them, but that takes a lot of spell slots. I would recommend Mighty longbows with adamantine arrows. And be prepared to re-cast the weapon buffs, because with that AC you'll be plinking at it for a long time.

The obvious problem there is that it still has fast healing, and it's going to be hard to make bow damage stick even piercing its regeneration. Now, I know that there's some spell somewhere that stops the target's fast healing from functioning. I'm pretty sure it's not in the approved sources; I think it was in a Forgotten Realms book. Beg for it. If you can get that cast, then you're set. You can do permanent damage to it and just hover above it whittling away at it until it dies. If not, you need to do more damage faster. Hiring a bunch of people to help and having them fly up with you plinking at it with the same bows you have would work, though it'd be expensive to arm them and none of them would hit much. Of course, it'd be nice to kill it faster.

Nothing's getting through its spell resistance, but if the sorcerer can get Orb of Fire (Complete Arcane) that's not an issue. Slap a bunch of metamagic on it and it'll do respectable damage. I'm not sure what spells your cleric can use on it, but there's probably something.

UglyPanda
2009-11-09, 12:37 AM
What about the possibility that it just doesn't care that it's being attacked and runs the hell away?

It also has a really really high AC, high enough that it's hard to hit with characters that don't specialize in bows.

Other things:
You need a few See Invisibilities and/or True Seeings, because while you can't hide from it, it can hide from you.
Its breath weapon is a 300 ft cone. You need to deal with that somehow.

gallagher
2009-11-09, 12:40 AM
i think i have it:
cast rope trick
have a contingencied rope trick ready for when you cast plane shift
plane shift to a friendly plane
big baddy is killed in the ensuing black hole

it is kinda dirty, but if it works you just got an easy win.

InkEyes
2009-11-09, 12:41 AM
Sell all your gear, pool the money together and hope you can use that to bribe a dragon to fight it. Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon) would be best (even a juvenile young adult one could probably might stand up against it in a fight).

Candle of Invocation Cheese (see gate suggestion above), you can even get one with a Wish/Miracle spell!

Divine intervention, no seriously get the cleric a grater strand of prayer beads (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) item that can summon his god's emissary and have it deal with it. If you're lucky the death of the emissary might even draw the god's attention and he/she will come down to sort it out.

Baste the Horizon Walker in honey barbecue sauce. Buy a bag of holding and a portable hole. Give both items to the Horizon Walker and hope the Xixecal is hungry enough to eat him. Place the bag of holding in the portable hole (or the other way around I always forget which way works best). Rip a hole to the astral plane in the Xixecal's stomach. Hope having a rift to the astral plane causes indigestion or something and he dies.

Acquire a method of opening a rift to the Elemental Plane of Fire large enough for the Xixecal to fall into. Let nature take it's course.


... that's all I got.

(edited many times for typos)

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 12:49 AM
This thing can't fly.

Get someone mounted on something with a good fly speed, and spirited charge it with a +6 flaming holy axiomatic adamantine lance (you can have some spells put on it to make it flaming, holy, or axiomatice, temporarily, if you can't scrounge the cash together, I think), using deep impact to make those touch attacks, while full out power attacking. That should net you 80 damage per charge, which healing/regen reduces to 20 damage per charge.

Eventually it will just ready action blasphemy against you, and you will die.

So nevermind.

Occasional Sage
2009-11-09, 12:59 AM
Find a new game.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 01:01 AM
Acquire a method of opening a rift to the Elemental Plane of Fire large enough for the Xixecal to fall into. Let nature take it's course.

Precipitate Breach or Precipitate Complete Breach, from the Planar Handbook. The first is 5th-level and you'll have to cast it twice if you want something creatures can fall through, and even then it's only a 20% chance of falling through if they walk over the breach. The other is 9th-level, and creates a 10-foot portal between planes plus a 10d10 foot radius that has the traits of both planes. Both have 10 minute casting time and 0 range, unfortunately.

So you'd have to either convince the Xixecal that your casting isn't a threat (more plausible than it sounds, Xixecals have -1 Sense Motive) or lure it over a hole in reality without it noticing. The first is more plausible. Either way, you'd have to immediately follow up your casting with several castings of Solid Fog to prevent it from escaping the breached area. Its inability to see in the fog could cause it to stumble into the portal, though that's somewhat wishful thinking.

Actually, I'm seeing possibilities with that -1 Sense Motive. "Hey Mister Xixecal, I'm going to cast a spell on you that'll make you even more powerful! It totally isn't a Plane Shift to the Plane of Fire, no need to bother rolling your ridiculously high Spellcraft." OK, so the last part makes it a problem, but convincing it to let you poke it with an item of Plane Shift might be doable.

Hell, if you can get spell storing returning throwing weapons of Plane Shift, just chuck those at it until it rolls a 1. You'll have to hit it, though, and it'll have to fail its save...

Damn, what's that trick that lets you get good range on touch-range spells? Because ranged touch Plane Shift until it fails the save is starting to look like the most viable option here.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 01:06 AM
Hire a manifester to manifest plane shift? Use a potion of glibness to beat his sense motive check.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-11-09, 01:19 AM
This thing's CR is about double your character level...without some serious intervention (though quite likely considering the threat that a xixecal presents to both good and fiery kind in the world) or a 7th level wizard (joke) I don't see this happening...Have the Sorceror get a scroll of wish and sacrifice themselves to the creative whim of the DM when they wish it dead? Awaken the Tarrasque and lure the two into a potentially unending battle with each other? Get yourself a sphere of annihilation (via knowledge, luck, giving the DM food, or the 3rd edition annihilate spell that gives you one for 1 round/caster level, though good luck finding a cleric of Tharizdun high enough level to cast that and still coherent/dumb enough to not let a xixecal wander around for a bit)? I mean there are only so many "Oh Feces" buttons out there, and most (except for wish) depend on a kind DM (Not so sure on that one if he intended for this to be a remotely possible encounter.) Or, and I don't think this is entirely implausible, you could level up a bunch in the month you have.

Chrono22
2009-11-09, 01:19 AM
I have a solution, but does relying on hypothetical NPCs count? I made a level 10 wizard/10 red wizard that could beat this thing a long time ago... using core.
The strategy I'd use revolves around a combination of circle magic, leadership, gate, and wishes.
Do the circle magic ritual with my underlings to raise my caster level to 40.
Gate in a great wyrm force dragon (75 HD monster). Send the force dragon to the ethereal plane, and command him to attack the aberration. He can attack it from the ethereal without having to worry about reciprocation.
If the dragon can't defeat the Xixecal, he can at least hold it off long enough for me to engage a strategy that can.
Cast Wish three times to generate a 75000 gp gem. The experience loss is a shame, but dealing with demigods can be painful. I then use divination magics to learn this particular Xixecal's name.
I then cast Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapthesoul.htm) on the Xixecal, using a sizeable body (perhaps of a dead force dragon?) as the trigger object. Assuming the Xixecal tries to consume the dragon, it will "accept" the trigger object. It becomes trapped within the gem, with no save and no spell resistance.
I then take the gem to my personal demiplane. I permanently animate it, as per animate objects. It now qualifies as a creature. I cast Imprisonment upon the animated 75000 gp gem. It becomes entombed in a state of permanent suspension, in the center of my demiplane.

Then I make tea, read my newspaper, and walk my dog.
The going rate for these services:
A little over 122600 gp.. more if you factor in the expense of my minions' spells. Might as well round it out to 150,000 gp.

sambo.
2009-11-09, 01:32 AM
i think you're up the proverbial creek of crap in a badly made barbed wire canoe with the absent paddle.

as i see it, that thing will have a whole bunch of white dragons as allies and you'll go further into the kaka.

if you have access to a Wish spell, something along the lines of "I Wish We Hadn't Unleahed That Thing Onto The Prime Material Plane" oughta cover it.

otherwise, start gating in high-powered allies &/or pray for divine intervention.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 01:54 AM
-1 Sense Motive at near epic levels makes this a cake walk. Just talk him into going back into whatever was holding him prisoner.

If you need the sense motive ranks, use Psychic Reformation (4th level power, replicate it with Limited Wish if you have to) to retrain them. Costs a little xp, though.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 02:27 AM
well with psionic magic transparency

sorc wish to reform the past couple levels (depending on how much extra xp he/she has) dump the useless sorc levels for archmage (if the feats are not there you may need to go back a few more levels just to gain feats)
grab Mastery of Elements with archmage
cast overland flight on self (or have the cleric do it)
now sit back at a safe distance and cast a Mastery of Elements acid arrow (now fire)

you have enough slots that it will die (feel free to add metamagics to speed it up) it takes 4d4 damage each round which is not reduced by anything for 7 rounds. which is 28d4 per arrow (average of 98 damage per spell)

the big guy will now be busy dispelling the arrows (or he will die to them) thus leaving your group with action economy to throw more ranged spells (fire preferred) if the ranger wants to help have him get the flaming/lawful enchantments on a bow

imperialspectre
2009-11-09, 02:33 AM
Xixecals are actually pretty weak, like much of the ELH material. You'll need a little bit of cheese to win in a core-only game, but not that much.

First, we have the Blasphemy to deal with. This is the xixecal's most threatening ability, but a Greater Spell Immunity (Blasphemy) spell solves that for you. While you're at it, pick three other spells on its SLA list that allow SR and that you don't want to have affect you and name those in the Greater Spell Immunity too.

Duplicate this casting for every party member (take it as a Sorcerer spell known, since Sorcerers can learn Cleric spells by RAW, or have the cleric do it).

Second, we have to evade the xixecal's powerful melee attacks. Even a blaster sorcerer can have Overland Flight, so just slap that on the party.

Third, we have to do enough damage to take down the xixecal. This part is actually hilariously easy. If the sorc's built as a blaster, this means at the minimum we should be looking at Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray, Empower, and Maximize. You'll have the Metamagic Specialist variant from PHB2, so you can Quicken one of these too. Since making the touch attacks is fail-on-a-1 at this level unless the DM is cheating (using material you're not allowed), you have a 95% chance of doing 2(24+2d6), average 62, 6 times every round (3 rays per casting, 2 castings per round). That's an expected damage per round of just over 350, out of 5th and 8th-level spell slots, so the sorc alone kills the xixecal in 6 rounds (if you're worried about conserving 8th-level slots, grab a Rod of Quicken, Normal - either cough up the relatively-trivial price at your level, or do what I'm going to explain below).

Fourth, if the sorc needs help killing the xixecal, the Cleric can Maximize Flame Strike (also with Rod of Quicken if necessary) and the Duskblade can Channeled Pyroburst. As previously mentioned, the Horizon Walker is basically irrelevant.

Fifth, it's possible that the xixecal could have Boots of Flying or something like that, so you'll want to BC it with something. I suggest a Solid Fog around his ankles, where it won't interfere with your Scorching Ray targeting.

Sixth and finally, if your party has made poor optimization choices (or choices not geared towards killing a god-slaying abomination) up to this point, I urge you to Limited Wish and duplicate Psychic Reformation on yourselves as many times as necessary to get the skills, feats, and spells known correct. You can also Wish for any magic item, by RAW, so a Staff of 50 Limited Wishes can be gotten either through chain-binding, chain-gating, or simply eating the 5k XP to cast the first Wish. That takes care of your PsyRef needs.

Oh, and "I wish we hadn't released the xixecal" is probably a valid Wish, so if all else fails you might try that.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 02:40 AM
imperialspectre the biggest flaw with your plan is SR 48.... thus the need to use spells like acid arrow

also while the sorc (in any of the suggested plans) is dealing with the big guy I would suggest the team deal with any summoned dragons :smallwink:

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 02:43 AM
well with psionic magic transparency

sorc wish to reform the past couple levels (depending on how much extra xp he/she has) dump the useless sorc levels for archmage (if the feats are not there you may need to go back a few more levels just to gain feats)
grab Mastery of Elements with archmage
cast overland flight on self (or have the cleric do it)
now sit back at a safe distance and cast a Mastery of Elements acid arrow (now fire)

you have enough slots that it will die (feel free to add metamagics to speed it up) it takes 4d4 damage each round which is not reduced by anything for 7 rounds. which is 28d4 per arrow (average of 98 damage per spell)

the big guy will now be busy dispelling the arrows (or he will die to them) thus leaving your group with action economy to throw more ranged spells (fire preferred) if the ranger wants to help have him get the flaming/lawful enchantments on a bow

Psychic Reformation doesn't work that way.

Also, with Fast Healing 30 and over 1500 HP, the monster can just Blasphemy spam until everyone anywhere near him is dead before dealing with the piddling acid arrows.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 02:53 AM
Psychic Reformation doesn't work that way.

Also, with Fast Healing 30 and over 1500 HP, the monster can just Blasphemy spam until everyone anywhere near him is dead before dealing with the piddling acid arrows.

bah you are right (been a while since I read the full description of reformation)

also the arrows can be shot from 760ft away well out of the range of blasphemy, and the damage would add up example


round 1 :
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
total:
46
round 2:
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 46
total:
138
round 3:
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 92
total:
276
round 4:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 138
total: 460
round 5:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 184
total: 690
round 6:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 230
total: 966
round 7:
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 276
total: 1265 (this is minus 210 due to fast healing but I hope the rest of the group can throw that much at him in this many rounds....)

at this point the first arrow is done and the rest have plenty of damge to finish him off

this example used 2 rods of quicken though without them it can be done it just takes me longer to type it out :smallwink:


Also if you can get retrained 1 level to get Elemental Mastery I would suggest using Acid Fog for the same reason solid fog was mentioned however of course mastered into fire and replace 1 casting of arrow with a casting of this to cause him to not move (also means he is less effective with his dispell magic uses)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 03:01 AM
I can think of a number of ways that you could win, using nothing but the Core 3. Some aren't even stretching the rules that far.

First, get hold of a cleric with access to 9th level spells. Miracle can move everyone and everything (except for the xixecal, of course) onto another plane for you, if you denote them as "allies".

Go find a whole bunch of REALLY HEAVY granite boulders, or something equally as dense. Have the sorcerer (or another caster) cast shrink item on them (as many as will fit inside a bag of holding), and key them all to the same password. Once the bag is full, the caster and an ally should fly up a few hundred feet above the xixecal with the bag of holding; dump it out, and have the one not manipulating the bag call out the command word to blow them all back up. Now you have millions of pounds of boulders falling on the thing's head (should deal several thousand d6s' worth of damage). Should be an instakill.

Chain-gate in some solars, and zerg-rush it.

Cast gate, pull in a hecatoncheires or twenty in its immediate vicinity, then plane shift out. Hey, you can call in as many of whatever you like (regardless of HD), but only if you don't mind not having any control. In this case, unless the gated critters are Good aligned, I'd go find a vacation home in Mount Celestia or Bytopia...

Cast gate underneath it to 'port it to the positive energy plane (a nat 1 will eventually make it explode), or the same above it to a lava flow somewhere.

Get a staff of power. Cast astral projection (probably via a lesser planar ally'd and dominated nightmare) and dimensional anchor on yourself. Run up to it while incorporeal. Break the staff. Goodbye xixecal.

Portable hole + bag of holding. Alternately, bag of holding + portable hole.

Hit a 150 Diplomacy check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy). Not hard to do by your level, at all. Note that there's no Sense Motive, no Will save, no nothing. It'll become fanatic to you, and you have a willing slave that will do whatever the hell you want it to. Have it consent to be plane shifted to the paraelemental plane of cold. Or fire. Your choice.

Take Eschew Materials, and the simulacrum spell. Make a simulacrum of Vecna (using EM to replace the hand and/or eye). Win.

There are others, but that'll do for now.

icefractal
2009-11-09, 03:01 AM
Keep in mind it has Greater Dispel Magic at will, with a range of 820'. So using a Fly spell to attack from out of its range isn't going to work (Greater Spell Immunity won't help with this, as Dispel Magic is SR:No).

Actual flying mounts could work, but they would need their own protections, you'll need to handle:
Dominate Monster (Prot. from Evil will work)
Meteor Swarm (Resist Energy: Fire should do it, as each meteor does separate damage).
Dire Winter (Resist Energy: Cold. Could be from a wand, because you don't need as much of it).

Alternately, you could just spread out enough that GDM only hits one of you at a time, stay high enough that falling 60' doesn't bring you into its range, and recast/repotion Fly as necessary. But that only works if you can kill it before you run out of slots/potions.

Of course, there are the dragons. And the fact that if you start winning, the Xixecal can run away at 680'/round, while invisible and regenerating.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:05 AM
bah you are right (been a while since I read the full description of reformation)

also the arrows can be shot from 760ft away well out of the range of blasphemy, and the damage would add up example


round 1 :
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
total:
46
round 2:
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 46
total:
138
round 3:
quickend (rod) maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 92
total:
276
round 4:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 138
total: 460
round 5:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 184
total: 690
round 6:
quickend (rod) quicken maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 230
total: 966
round 7:
maximized empowered "Fire" arrow (4d4+.5*4d5 ~23 )
previous = 276
total: 1265 (this is minus 210 due to fast healing but I hope the rest of the group can throw that much at him in this many rounds....)

at this point the first arrow is done and the rest have plenty of damge to finish him off

this example used 2 rods of quicken though without them it can be done it just takes me longer to type it out :smallwink:


I'm not saying the arrows wouldn't add up, they just won't add up fast enough. He'll kill the whole party before turning on you.

Actually, that Dire Winter effect is brutal. It prevents you from using any ranged attacks on him, and you have to make a DC 20 fort save every round to avoid being blown away, thanks to the hurricane force winds.

Ooh, also, spot, listen and search checks are impossible, thanks to the lack of visibility. This is going to make any sort of movement for you exceptionally difficult (no charging)

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 03:07 AM
Keep in mind it has Greater Dispel Magic at will, with a range of 820'. So using a Fly spell to attack from out of its range isn't going to work (Greater Spell Immunity won't help with this, as Dispel Magic is SR:No).

Of course, there are the dragons. And the fact that if you start winning, the Xixecal can run away at 680'/round, while invisible and regenerating.

add enlarge to my previous suggestions as far as getting your flight dispelled.

the dragons can be problems so thats what the rest of the group worries about as the sorc deals with the big guy also acid (fire) fog should stop him from moving to quickly

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:09 AM
Ranged attacks are not going to be doing anything to this guy, thanks to the effects of Dire Winter.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 03:10 AM
Ranged attacks are not going to be doing anything to this guy, thanks to the effects of Dire Winter.

"and all ranged weapon attacks impossible" srd for storms
spells are not weapons (though the ranger will be useless)

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:14 AM
"and all ranged weapon attacks impossible" srd for storms
spells are not weapons (though the ranger will be useless)

Good catch on the weapons part, but that 50% concealment is a booger.

Killer Angel
2009-11-09, 03:40 AM
"and all ranged weapon attacks impossible" srd for storms
spells are not weapons (though the ranger will be useless)

The ranger horizon walker could always help with dimension door to redeploy his teammates, without having them wasting move actions... :smalltongue:

Iethloc
2009-11-09, 03:57 AM
I, for one, welcome our new icy overlords.


You've got an 18th Level Cleric. That means you also have Miracle. It won't bust through the Xixecal's SR, but at the very least, you can use that to negate the Dire Winter. One of the examples given in Miracle is protection from a major natural disaster, so it's certainly no stretch to apply it to a walking natural disaster.

The Cleric will also have Gate. Summon a Lavawight and find a way to give it cold immunity, and any other buffs you can think of.

Really, all the ideas I have revolve around Cleric spells.

Fishy
2009-11-09, 06:31 AM
Aligned (Planar)

You have the instinctive ability to mimic the dominant alignment of the plane. You incur none of the penalties for having an alignment at odds with that of the plane, and spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you. You have the dominant alignment of the plane with regard to magic, but your behavior and any alignment-related Class Features you have are unaffected.

Horizon Walkers: Immune to Blasphemy.

Volkov
2009-11-09, 06:38 AM
You think you have a shot in the nine hells at winning? Hahahahahahahahahahahhaahahhahahahahahahahahahaha! !!!!!!!!!!!! That's a good one. What's that.....you say that you are being serious? Oh in that case, sorry kid, you've been royally screwed and hosed to the nine hells, and not necessarily in that order.

Killer Angel
2009-11-09, 06:44 AM
Horizon Walkers: Immune to Blasphemy.

Judging from this post:



Reasonings by RAW on Aligned planar terrain


it appears that the HW would be immune to blasphemy only if (in his previous existance) he has been on an evil Plane. But i'm not sure about it.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 07:15 AM
It hits you with it's blasphemy and you all die.

No seriously, that's it. I really can't see a way to win unless your DM intentionally plays it as dumber than it is.

Rangers/Horizon Walker can be immune to that if he took Planar.

Ice&Fire
2009-11-09, 07:24 AM
If it wasn't for the core-rules-only bit, I'd say it's time one of you started chanting Pazuzu.

Slightly off topic, but I've heard people talking about chanting Pazuzu a few times. Who/what is Pazuzu and what does chanting his name give you?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 07:27 AM
Pazuzu is a demon lord that grants a wish in order to tempt you to evil (alignment changes). Except Pallys: they get one wish free than the second wish changes alignment.

You can call the same way you call Beetle Juice: say my name three times in sucession.

Tavar
2009-11-09, 07:31 AM
Rangers/Horizon Walker can be immune to that if he took Planar.

Granted, there's not much he can do to the Xixecal besides die a horrible death, but you are correct in that he won't die to the blasphemy. Assuming that he took that ability.

Eldariel
2009-11-09, 07:58 AM
You can trivially achieve immunity to the two most scary things it possesses. Energy Immunity: Cold and Spell Immunity: Blasphemy on everyone mean that it cannot really touch you with its spell-likes. That does leave you to deal with its Greater Dispel Magic though. Also, it's Colossal with 50' reach which kinda sucks.

Its attacks are obviously too high for you to survive. Its saves are too high for you to get through on anything but natural 1 on its part, and that's after you've spent couple of actions negating its Spell Resistance. Your best bet is probably to purchase a bunch of +1 Evil Outsider Bane Fiery Holy bows and use Greater Magic Weapon (along with Beads of Karma) to make them +5 and thus +7 thanks to Bane, penetrating its DR and Regeneration with Adamantine Arrows. That'd allow you to damage it.

With enough Rings of Greater Counterspell: Greater Dispel Magic, you may actually have your defenses on long enough to bombard it to death...if you somehow find a way to do touch attacks with decent ease.


But yeah, following issues:
- If you go near it, its Power Attack and reach mean you'll be provoking an awful lot of AoOs without a lot of work. Oh, and Con Drain.
- It has too much HP and regenerative qualities to be reasonably killed in quick schedule. You can penetrate its DR and Regeneration pretty easily when you know what you're up against, but it still has 1.6k HP and Fast Healing, along with decent AC (though inexistent Touch AC)
- Greater Dispel Magic puts you on a clock even with defenses. It'll eventually get through so you gotta kill it fast.
- Its spell-likes ensure that if your defenses ever go down, you die.


So, you need ways to negate its Greater Dispel Magic and ways to deal insane damage to it, preferably from range. Negating GDM either requires items or just readied actions to somehow break the line of effect.

Damage...well, yeah, you need Bows or something 'cause nothing else has long enough range. Then you need something to actually hit it with. And then you need to buy enough time to drop it and somehow stop it from escaping with its 140' movement speed. Oh, and you gotta deal with a couple of Old Whites while at it (not that hard though; White Dragons are unimpressive).


So, if you really, really optimized on it, you might be able to. With your present party? Gate something big that stands a whole lot better chance than you. You've got two characters capable of casting Gate, so start there.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-11-09, 08:44 AM
It is easily doable in Core, no broken tactics:


1) Prepare as many Earthquake spells as you can with your cleric. Preferably all slots.
2) Get your Sorceror true strike, telekinesis and flaming arrows. Waste a wish scroll if you have to, to change spells known.
3) Get large trebuchet rocks. Lots of them.
4) Buy more scrolls of Earthquake.

Approach:
You sneak in invisible or just wait in the Xixekal's course until it comes near. Remember, cold resistance and fire resistance vs the Dire Winter and Meteor Swarms helps.

Opening:
Earthquake on the Xixekal's feet. It can't attack and it can't take move actions. You are out of close range so no dominate monster. Summon abilities require move actions so it can't use them either.
The sorceror flame-arrows the trebucket stones. (they're big but still projectiles)

Battle:
The cleric should be able to keep the Xixekal immobilized for at least 10 rounds at 18th level just with base slots. Assume your scrolls/rod of Earthquake increase that considerably.
The sorceror's job will be to shapechange into a Pit Fiend, snap on a Greater Heroism then truestike+telekinesis the flaming rocks at the enemy. That's a rock every 2nd round with a good chance to hit. The rocks are too heavy to be affected by wind like other attacks and they do double damage. They have a fairly good chance to hit, too.
That's 32d6 damage per hit, average 50 per round if you factor 80% hit chance and fast healing. It would take you half a rod of Earthquake, all your cleric's slots and all your sorceror's slots to bring it down in 30 rounds or so but it will be worth it.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 09:23 AM
why would the earthquake make it incapable of casting/summoning all it can't do is attack or move (which is good but not as good as taking all its actions)

It has a Concentration +90 so it can easily cast during the quake/ its reflex save is high enough that it does not need to even try to avoid the fissures.

The stones only double their fire damage (which is 1d6)

Than there is the 50% miss chance due to visibility (though as others have said a miracle could get rid of that)

AstralFire
2009-11-09, 09:40 AM
Slightly off topic, but I've heard people talking about chanting Pazuzu a few times. Who/what is Pazuzu and what does chanting his name give you?

Aside from what Starbuck said, it is also an element in one of the most... odd rules quirks ever, that very, very theoretically ('string and a prayer' looks like a foolproof failsafe in comparison) allows a level 1 kobold paladin to become the most powerful build in the game. It requires a poorly worded but easily fixed, little-known ability from a little-known supplement for the Forgotten Realms.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-11-09, 10:12 AM
Summoning (as the special ability of outsiders) usually requires a move action. In any case, your other two guys could have their banishment scrolls ready.
For every other casting, the 200 ft range of telekinesis will be too far for the Xixekal's abilities and dispelling is not that much of an issue if you cannot be targeted.
The stones are flaming weapons. They double their entire damage according to the Xixekal writeup.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 10:15 AM
Cold subtype- has been changed in 3.5- hence- any fire damage, is multiplied by 1.5, rather than doubled. And the Xixecal was updated to 3.5, along with everything else in the Epic Handbook.

Unless that group is playing 3.0.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-11-09, 10:19 AM
I'm fairly sure I'm looking at the updated stats now. They contain this line;


Regeneration (Ex)

Xixecals take normal damage from Lawful weapons, and double damage from burning or fiery weapons.

That's on top of their weakness to fire due to cold subtype.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 10:22 AM
ah, right- forgot about that- I was thinking just of the cold subtype.

In what order is it applied? First the doubling, then all the fire damage from the flaming weapon being multiplied by 1.5?

Or would the DM rule that the two don't stack?

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 10:51 AM
Summoning (as the special ability of outsiders) usually requires a move action. In any case, your other two guys could have their banishment scrolls ready.
For every other casting, the 200 ft range of telekinesis will be too far for the Xixekal's abilities and dispelling is not that much of an issue if you cannot be targeted.
The stones are flaming weapons. They double their entire damage according to the Xixekal writeup.

you can not move but you can still take move equivalent actions (at least as RAW indicates because it makes no reference of a denial of actions)

as for the flaming weapon
"You turn ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, shuriken, and stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won’t ignite a creature it strikes. "
the spell (as seen above) does not change the damage type of the base weapon instead it just adds damage onto the base weapon, only the fire damage is doubled thus only 1d6 is doubled.

Edit: also never did notice the vulnerability and the extra damage (it doesn't matter which order you apply it as they come out to the same damage both ways)

edit2: so without the boulders actually being fire they deal only 15d6+2d6 damage this averages to 52+9 which is reduced to 32+9 which which than has 30 regened and another 30 fast healed meaning that you deal no net damage

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 10:57 AM
i think interpreting "double damage from burning weapons" as a unique trait, separate from Cold subtype, that doubles all the damage from burning weapons, might be a little overgenerous.

Say you are wielding a Colossal weapon, which is holy, corrosive, shock, thundering, and fiery- by this interpretation- all the damage dice would be totalled, and the damage then doubled.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 10:59 AM
i think interpreting "double damage from burning weapons" as a unique trait, separate from Cold subtype, that doubles all the damage from burning weapons, might be a little overgenerous.

Say you are wielding a Colossal weapon, which is holy, corrosive, shock, thundering, and fiery- by this interpretation- all the damage dice would be totalled, and the damage then doubled.

hmm true by raw I guess that makes sense :smallconfused: seems like poor wording because by that same straight interpretation no spells overcome it regeneration (as spells are not weapons)

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 11:06 AM
True- unless the DM rules that any spell that can have Weapon-focus added to it, is a weapon (otherwise, it couldn't benefit from the feat)

I think, for example, it is possible to take Weapon focus (ray) according to Complete Arcane.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 11:09 AM
It's fairly trivial to become immune to both the blasphemy and the cold damage; polymorph (or shapechange) into a creature with the cold subtype (cryohydras or frost giants - they even get rock-throwing! - for the melees, ice mephits for the casters), then cast silence.

Ring of greater spell immunity or ring of spell turning for the greater dispel magic.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 11:10 AM
actually them benefiting from the feat was adding in complete arcane (so very technically if we stick with the given allowed books they are not allowed to benefit from those feats :smallwink: ) also they are weaponlike
emphasis mine because they are not actually weapons.

AstralFire
2009-11-09, 11:15 AM
It was added in Tome & Blood in 3.0 and I think the 3.5 PHB alludes somewhat to it.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 11:17 AM
the phrasing "burning weapons" rather than "fire" may be a part of the problem.

Does it "make sense" for a xixecal to regenerate from fireballs, meteor swarms, burning rays, and the like, but not, from a +1 flaming sword, or arrows with the flame arrow spell cast on them?

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 11:29 AM
the phrasing "burning weapons" rather than "fire" may be a part of the problem.

Does it "make sense" for a xixecal to regenerate from fireballs, meteor swarms, burning rays, and the like, but not, from a +1 flaming sword, or arrows with the flame arrow spell cast on them?

as far as makes sense yes only the portion of the wounds which are burnt do not heal (those portions would be the extra damage added by those properties) as the rest is just normal cutting or bludgeoning damage and the like.

Coidzor
2009-11-09, 11:29 AM
No, not particularly, but them's the breaks with bad phraseology...

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 11:31 AM
as far as makes sense yes only the portion of the wounds which are burnt do not heal (those portions would be the extra damage added by those properties) as the rest is just normal cutting or bludgeoning damage and the like.

The point is, as written, a case can be made that all the damage done by the burning weapon, stays there.

and none of the damage of the fireball stays there un-regenerated, since it is not a weapon.

InkEyes
2009-11-09, 11:34 AM
Damn, what's that trick that lets you get good range on touch-range spells? Because ranged touch Plane Shift until it fails the save is starting to look like the most viable option here.

Mmm well, the easiest way would be having a familiar deliver the touch spells. Sending a familiar straight into combat range of this guy would pretty much be an instant xp loss, though. Buffing it with a dozen evasive spells might help a bit... until the Xixecal drops a greater dispel. An improved familiar would last longer. Say, a quasit that turns invisible at will or an earth elemental that can sink into the ground.

Outside of core, there's a metamagic feat called Reach Spell in Complete Divine that lets you deliver touch spells from 30 ft. away. That won't help much in this case, though.

Then there's the Archmage's Arcane Reach High Arcana. It stacks with Reach Spell IIRC. It might also work well with the acid arrow tactic.

Instead of remaking the sorcerer into a Archmage he could just restructure his skill points to pump bluff as much as possible. Then he could cast glibness on himself and convince the Xixecal that it's powerful enough to convert the Plane of Elemental Fire into its own plane of ice. Then open up a gate to the plane and lead the Xixecal through it. Immediately dismiss/dispel the gate and defeat it that way.


Another idea occurred to me too: Get the whole party fiery ghost touch weapons and plane shift to the ethereal plane. Chip away at his HP that way. You might need a greater teleport ready to get you closer to the Xixecal; plane shift can drop you up to 500 miles away.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-11-09, 11:58 AM
The Xixekal is an abomination. Abominations are effectively demigods; they don't fail on a natural 1. (I think)

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 12:01 PM
The Xixekal is an abomination. Abominations are effectively demigods; they don't fail on a natural 1. (I think)

nope need to have a divine rank of 1 at least

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-09, 12:01 PM
The Xixekal is an abomination. Abominations are effectively demigods; they don't fail on a natural 1. (I think)

Does not seem clearly stated in the ELH... they have a divine spark, we could say quasi-almost-semi-somethingsimilar-gods, but nothing more. So, thei fail like a kobold commoner with a natural 1, unless I miss something.

InkEyes
2009-11-09, 12:07 PM
Nope, you need a rank of 1 or better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm) (they're rank 0).

Damn, ninja'ed.

Xenogears
2009-11-09, 12:11 PM
As a slight aside does anyone else think the regeneration thing on the abominations is kinda half-awesome but then entirely lame.

Like most of them have a really cool quest inducing way to get a weapon that can kill them (Dream Larvea requires weapon forged by a sleepwalking smith, Hecatoncheires need the weapon to be bathed in gods blood, Atropal needs a living weapon, Phane needs a weapon forged in another time-line.) but then completely negate that by having a simple alignment work just as well.

Hmm shall I go on a quest to get a weapon forged in an alternate timeline? Nah lets just use a generic +whatever holy bastard sword.

It's like they had an awesome idea and then decided that for some reason monsters that in fact only exist to be plot-devices shouldn't require a quest to defeat. Meh besdes that I love the abominations though.

Ragnor
2009-11-09, 12:24 PM
Answers to some of the questions raised:

- The Sorcerer is actually an Archmage with Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping. I don't remember if he has taken other abilities.
- The setting is in the Forgotten Realms, and all FR source material is available.
- The Xixecal was not intended to be an encounter at this level; we just accidentally released it, and would like to get rid of it before it swallows too much of the Prime. :P
- We do have access to Miracle and Wish (though, our Sorcerer is decidedly stingy on spending his hard-earned XP. :P)

Mordokai
2009-11-09, 12:24 PM
Like most of them have a really cool quest inducing way to get a weapon that can kill them (Dream Larvea requires weapon forged by a sleepwalking smith, Hecatoncheires need the weapon to be bathed in gods blood, Atropal needs a living weapon, Phane needs a weapon forged in another time-line.) but then completely negate that by having a simple alignment work just as well.

This intrigues me and I wish to know more. Care to share your sources? I assume these informations are found in ELH?

Xenogears
2009-11-09, 12:27 PM
This intrigues me and I wish to know more. Care to share your sources? I assume these informations are found in ELH?

Ummm technically the SRD since I lost my copy of the ELH but it's just under the regeneration section for those abominations. They take normal damage from those specific types of weapons or weapons of the opposite alignments. Like trolls take normal damage from Fire or Acid.

Tavar
2009-11-09, 12:28 PM
If this is Forgotten Realms, then you can actually do the original Pun Pun build. Don't though. It's really not appropriate for actual play.

Mordokai
2009-11-09, 12:30 PM
Ummm technically the SRD since I lost my copy of the ELH but it's just under the regeneration section for those abominations. They take normal damage from those specific types of weapons or weapons of the opposite alignments. Like trolls take normal damage from Fire or Acid.

I see it now. Thanks for pointing it out for me :smallsmile: Failed Spot check again...

Though I agree with you, that is lame and awesome at the same time.

Aharon
2009-11-09, 12:56 PM
Question for the rules savy:
Does the Dire Winter also force a concentration check for casting?



Distracting spell’s save DC Weather caused by a spell, such as storm of vengeance.4

4. If the spell allows no save, use the save DC it would have if it did allow a save.


Not that it matters a lot, I'm just curious.

InkEyes
2009-11-09, 01:56 PM
- The Xixecal was not intended to be an encounter at this level; we just accidentally released it, and would like to get rid of it before it swallows too much of the Prime. :P

Just out of curiosity, how did you manage to accidentally unleash a CR 36 monster on the material plane?

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 02:07 PM
You can trivially achieve immunity to the two most scary things it possesses. Energy Immunity: Cold and Spell Immunity: Blasphemy on everyone mean that it cannot really touch you with its spell-likes. That does leave you to deal with its Greater Dispel Magic though. Also, it's Colossal with 50' reach which kinda sucks.

Its attacks are obviously too high for you to survive. Its saves are too high for you to get through on anything but natural 1 on its part, and that's after you've spent couple of actions negating its Spell Resistance. Your best bet is probably to purchase a bunch of +1 Evil Outsider Bane Fiery Holy bows and use Greater Magic Weapon (along with Beads of Karma) to make them +5 and thus +7 thanks to Bane, penetrating its DR and Regeneration with Adamantine Arrows. That'd allow you to damage it.

With enough Rings of Greater Counterspell: Greater Dispel Magic, you may actually have your defenses on long enough to bombard it to death...if you somehow find a way to do touch attacks with decent ease.


But yeah, following issues:
- If you go near it, its Power Attack and reach mean you'll be provoking an awful lot of AoOs without a lot of work. Oh, and Con Drain.
- It has too much HP and regenerative qualities to be reasonably killed in quick schedule. You can penetrate its DR and Regeneration pretty easily when you know what you're up against, but it still has 1.6k HP and Fast Healing, along with decent AC (though inexistent Touch AC)
- Greater Dispel Magic puts you on a clock even with defenses. It'll eventually get through so you gotta kill it fast.
- Its spell-likes ensure that if your defenses ever go down, you die.


So, you need ways to negate its Greater Dispel Magic and ways to deal insane damage to it, preferably from range. Negating GDM either requires items or just readied actions to somehow break the line of effect.

Damage...well, yeah, you need Bows or something 'cause nothing else has long enough range. Then you need something to actually hit it with. And then you need to buy enough time to drop it and somehow stop it from escaping with its 140' movement speed. Oh, and you gotta deal with a couple of Old Whites while at it (not that hard though; White Dragons are unimpressive).


So, if you really, really optimized on it, you might be able to. With your present party? Gate something big that stands a whole lot better chance than you. You've got two characters capable of casting Gate, so start there.

Bows wouldn't work. Ballistae, catapults or trebuchet would, though.


ah, right- forgot about that- I was thinking just of the cold subtype.

In what order is it applied? First the doubling, then all the fire damage from the flaming weapon being multiplied by 1.5?

Or would the DM rule that the two don't stack?

I think it has already been stacked. Two 50% increases = one 100% increase (or doubling).


It's fairly trivial to become immune to both the blasphemy and the cold damage; polymorph (or shapechange) into a creature with the cold subtype (cryohydras or frost giants - they even get rock-throwing! - for the melees, ice mephits for the casters), then cast silence.

Ring of greater spell immunity or ring of spell turning for the greater dispel magic.

Spell Immunity only works for SR: yes spells, and ring of spell turning only functions 3 times. You'd need a huge stack of them.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 02:16 PM
Answers to some of the questions raised:

- The Sorcerer is actually an Archmage with Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping. I don't remember if he has taken other abilities.
- The setting is in the Forgotten Realms, and all FR source material is available.
- The Xixecal was not intended to be an encounter at this level; we just accidentally released it, and would like to get rid of it before it swallows too much of the Prime. :P
- We do have access to Miracle and Wish (though, our Sorcerer is decidedly stingy on spending his hard-earned XP. :P)

what equipment do you have/could you get?

Oslecamo
2009-11-09, 02:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, how did you manage to accidentally unleash a CR 36 monster on the material plane?

The description of said CR 36 monster states that it's not uncommon for them to be trapped into material plane glaciers, untill someone literally breacks the ice.

Something perfectly in range of a non epic party being too trigger happy with their destructive abilities.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 02:18 PM
One effect- described under Regeneration, is the doubling.

One, described under the Cold subtype, is the "x 150% damage"

So its x2, plus x1.5.

How do they combine?

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 02:28 PM
So its x2, plus x1.5.

How do they combine?

Applying the multipliers does not matter (as far as order)

example:
4 damage
x2 = 8 (for regen rule)
x1.5 = 12 (for subtype)

4 damage
x1.5 = 6 (for subtype)
x2 = 12 (for regen rule)

edit (no need to make a new post): if you go with the telekinesis plan (which I personaly see as still a little iffy as far as rules go) I would suggest summon monster 8 (and 9 for more) to get Vrocks who have telekinesis as spell likes and can make a firing line to help you.

Mordokai
2009-11-09, 02:29 PM
The description of said CR 36 monster states that it's not uncommon for them to be trapped into material plane glaciers, untill someone literally breacks the ice.

Something perfectly in range of a non epic party being too trigger happy with their destructive abilities.

"After a night of drinking, revelry and Pelor knows what else, you find yourself in the icy terrain, surrounded by glaciers. There is ice as far as your eyes can see and there is no clue as to how you got here. What do you?"
"I cast Meteor Swarm on the glaciers around me!"
"Congratulations, you've just released a god killing abomination. It sees you and sets a course for you!"
"Greater teleport, greater teleport!"

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 02:37 PM
Applying the multipliers does not matter (as far as order)

example:
4 damage
x2 = 8 (for regen rule)
x1.5 = 12 (for subtype)

4 damage
x1.5 = 6 (for subtype)
x2 = 12 (for regen rule)


Applying round number multipliers in D&D works a bit differently from normal maths:
x2 plus x2 = x3

My guess is that since one of them is quite low, and not a round number, we don't need to worry about that.

Jayabalard
2009-11-09, 03:04 PM
Applying round number multipliers in D&D works a bit differently from normal maths:
x2 plus x2 = x3The same method that is used to make x2 plus x2 = x3 would make x2 plus x1.5 = x2.5

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 03:07 PM
edit2: so without the boulders actually being fire they deal only 15d6+2d6 damage this averages to 52+9 which is reduced to 32+9 which which than has 30 regened and another 30 fast healed meaning that you deal no net damage

Cast Axiomatic Weapon on the boulders so they ignore the regeneration. You're still only doing what, 11 net damage per hit, though. If you also cast Greater Magic Weapon and Bless Weapon on them, and find some way to make them count as adamantine (I'm sure there's some way; or you could just use Major Creation repeatedly to make adamantine boulders), then you'll be doing 31 net damage per hit since you'll get through its DR. Inefficient, but functional.


Answers to some of the questions raised:

- The Sorcerer is actually an Archmage with Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping. I don't remember if he has taken other abilities.
- The setting is in the Forgotten Realms, and all FR source material is available.
- The Xixecal was not intended to be an encounter at this level; we just accidentally released it, and would like to get rid of it before it swallows too much of the Prime. :P
- We do have access to Miracle and Wish (though, our Sorcerer is decidedly stingy on spending his hard-earned XP. :P)

Excellent! Find a way for your Sorcerer to get Ebon Ray of Doom, a 4th-level spell from Lost Empires of Faerun. Use it on the xixecal, and every round it'll have to make Fortitude saves for its fast healing and regeneration to function. Granted, it's going to make it except on a natural 1, but it helps. And depending on what your DM rules, you may be able to cast it 4 or 5 times on the xixecal so it'll have that many more chances of rolling a 1 each round.

If your Sorc has Arcane Reach and can retrain for the Reach Spell metamagic, you can have him prepare Plane Shift in every available spell slot and chuck ranged touch Plane Shifts to the Plane of Fire until the X rolls a 1. If you can't use Glibness + Bluff to convince it to let you send it to the Plane of Fire via Gate willingly, that is.

Ragnor
2009-11-09, 03:08 PM
what equipment do you have/could you get?

Well, besides the standard, basic sort of gear (+5 or less weapons, armor, bags of holding, portable holes, daern's instant fortress, etc. etc. etc.):


Githyanki Silver Sword (non-vorpal), imbued with the spirit of Seradess (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sardior#Relationships) (flaming burst, variable bane, bypasses DR)
A Book of Infinite Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm)
A crystal that gives us (or, the Ranger, sadly :smalltongue:) pretty much absolute control over water.

We also could have access to most anything in the DMG, provided we can pay for it.

Love the ideas so far!

Keshay
2009-11-09, 03:12 PM
There's really no reasonable way for you guys to fight this thing, any solution to the problem will need to be through storytelling.

Your party accidetially released this thing, I think your best bet would be to devise a creative method of re-trapping it in the same or similar prison from which you freed it.

I'd try to find a way to somehow get as much water dropped on the thing as possible (or get it dropped into water). Something pumping out that much cold would cause whatever water around it to freeze pretty quickly. (Dire Winter even says that it causes water in the air to condense and form snow, imagine what it would do to actual water). All water turning to ice in a 1000ft radius should manage to contain even something like this..

My vote is to create a dam in large river, have a release built in so that when you lure the creature in front of it millions of gallons of water pour over it, creating a novelty self-sustaining Xixecal ice cube at the bottom of the resultant lake.

Your party simply does not have the necessary resources to straight-up fight an epic level threat, finding a solution that does not involve direct combat is your best bet.

Edit: I just saw the bit about the crystal granting control over water. It seems like your DM has already given you a solution. How much water are we talking here? If you do want to go the magic item route, I'd buy as many decanters of endless water as you can, sting them all together, fly overhead and use that permanent Dire Winter effect against it. it even says that the only way to get rid of the effect is to kill the creature, it can not even dismiss the Dire Winter willingly.

Lapak
2009-11-09, 03:15 PM
If your Sorc has Arcane Reach and can retrain for the Reach Spell metamagic, you can have him prepare Plane Shift in every available spell slot and chuck ranged touch Plane Shifts to the Plane of Fire until the X rolls a 1. If you can't use Glibness + Bluff to convince it to let you send it to the Plane of Fire via Gate willingly, that is.Arcane Reach (or Reach Spell) gets you a range of 30'. It has a reach of 50'.

I do not think that this plan is a good plan.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 03:16 PM
Arcane Reach gets you a range of 30'. It has a reach of 50'.

I do not think that this plan is a good plan.

Arcane Reach stacks with the Reach Spell metamagic for a total of 60'.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-11-09, 03:28 PM
I'm still personally suggesting you guys find yourself a sphere of annhilation. Might need some abuse of that low sense motive of his though to get it to not uber-control check it right back into your face.

Lapak
2009-11-09, 03:30 PM
Arcane Reach stacks with the Reach Spell metamagic for a total of 60'.Really? Is that stated in the RAW anywhere? Both seem to indicate that they set the range to 30', not that they increase it by 30'.

Fizban
2009-11-09, 03:40 PM
I'm liking the sphere of annihilation plan, the put it on ice plan, and the "use limited wish to duplicate psychic reformation and rebuild the sorcerer into Cindy" plan. Forced plane shifting is also good but hard to pull off. I think there was a spell with a combat feasible casting time that switched two chunks of plane for a while, but I don't remember where. Presumably Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes.

streakster
2009-11-09, 03:40 PM
A crystal that gives us (or, the Ranger, sadly :smalltongue:) pretty much absolute control over water.

Grab crystal, order water in Xixecal's body to be steam, perform victory dance. Problem gone.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 03:45 PM
Really? Is that stated in the RAW anywhere? Both seem to indicate that they set the range to 30', not that they increase it by 30'.

I recall reading it on the CharOp boards, but can't find a link. I may be wrong.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:45 PM
I recall reading it on the CharOp boards, but can't find a link. I may be wrong.

You could always take the same ability of the arch mage twice to gain 60ft range.

Ragnor
2009-11-09, 04:24 PM
Grab crystal, order water in Xixecal's body to be steam, perform victory dance. Problem gone.

Uses like that usually require Fort/Will saves, SR, etc. :smallsmile:

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 04:30 PM
That, and that creature probably has no water in its body.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 04:34 PM
That, and that creature probably has no water in its body.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44168_C5_Xixecal.jpg

It seems like it's made of ice to me...

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 04:35 PM
Ice != water.

[edit]
Parsed that wrong.

Water != ice.

jiriku
2009-11-09, 04:47 PM
Wow, you guys are hosed.

Some ideas (many are cheesy, but hey, what else can you do against CR 36?).

Easy suggestions. These things might work and you can attempt them with your present party:

Definitely try to wish that you hadn't released the thing.
Negotiate with it. Socially and mentally, it's no more formidable than an average commoner. If you have an effective social-type character, it shouldn't be hard to convince it of whatever you want. For example, convince it that it's awoken at the end of an ice age, and that if it only returns to its glacier and slumbers for another 5,000 years, it will awaken in a winter wonderland.
Call Elminster, The Simbul, Khelben Blackstaff, Drizzt Do'Urden, and every other uber-power NPC in the setting. Admit that you screwed up and beg them to help you. Then gate in a couple of celestial great wym gold dragons (yes, gate can call those), along with a couple of planetars packing miracle to mass resurrect you all during the combat, and then everybody hit it at once with everything you've got. Ten or twenty 20th level characters and a half-dozen epic spellcasters, plus their summoned allies, should be able to take it down, although you should expect to suffer heavy casualties.


Hard suggestions. These suggestions assume that you'll undergo a major retraining quest as described in the back of PHB2 to obtain the necessary abilities, because your characters as written likely aren't sufficiently twinked out. They also require your DM to explicitly permit material outside your listed sources:


If your Forgotten Realms setting follows Earth physics, drop an orbital kinetic energy weapon on it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129080). You'll need a well-timed wish to stop the dire winter long enough for the projectile to descend from orbit undisturbed. One or two castings of wish should suffice.
Cast locate city (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128213) or a similar spell, add the appropriate metamagic to it, teleport several hundred miles away and watch the glow on the horizon.
Have the sorcerer retrain to incantatrix and twink his spellcraft skill. Cast persistent undermaster and persistent time stop. Use 24 hours of apparent time and at-will earth-manipulation magic to dig an enormous crater under the thing and an enormous channel from a nearby alpine lake, draining the lake into the crater. Dismiss time stop and watch the xixecal turn itself into an ice cube, as mentioned by other posters. Construct an ice sweeper, fence off the surface of the frozen lake, charge admission, and make a killing operating Faerun's only outdoor ice-skating rink in a temperate climate, with free iced drinks for all repeat customers.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 04:54 PM
Ice != water.

[edit]
Parsed that wrong.

Water != ice.

Unless the magic item specifies which metastatic phase of H20 it was designed to target, the assumption is it doesn't matter as long as the molecules are the same.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 05:00 PM
the Extract Water Elemental spell works on "any living creature" (except those with the Fire subtype) but requires a Fort save.

Elementals, outsiders, etc, are living creatures- MM:
"Unlike other living creatures, an elemental's soul and body form one unit"
"Unlike other living creatures, an outsider's soul and body form one unit"
etc.

You could cast Extract Water Elemental on a Xixecal, or for that matter, an Ice Paraelemental, and it would work (if you could beat the save- maybe by Heightening it)

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 05:03 PM
Unless the magic item specifies which metastatic phase of H20 it was designed to target, the assumption is it doesn't matter as long as the molecules are the same.

The item does specify which metastatic phase of H2O- water, the liquid one. It would have specified H20 if it meant to include solid and gaseous forms, but instead it is just water- the liquid phase.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 05:14 PM
The item does specify which metastatic phase of H2O- water, the liquid one. It would have specified H20 if it meant to include solid and gaseous forms, but instead it is just water- the liquid phase.

If D&D was intended to be that specific, why then does the Water domain grant Ice spells? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/icestorm.htm)

Oslecamo
2009-11-09, 05:18 PM
If D&D was intended to be that specific, why then does the Water domain grant Ice spells? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/icestorm.htm)

Because there weren't any 5th level water spells to fill in the gap? There are really very few water spells in core.

Mewtarthio
2009-11-09, 05:20 PM
What is this "H2O" of which you speak? Are you saying that water is composes of "atoms" with such arcane names as "hydrogen" and "oxygen"? Ha! What madness is this? Everyone knows that water is one of the four fundamental elements of the universe, and ice is merely one of its manifestations! You cannot "divide" an element! Ho, ho, what a merry jest this is!

Oslecamo
2009-11-09, 05:22 PM
That's it! KILL IT WITH ANTI-WATER!

Gated by an efreeti riding a locate city bombo, with knowledge of everything in the universe, of course.

Ragnor
2009-11-09, 05:24 PM
What is this "H2O" of which you speak? Are you saying that water is composes of "atoms" with such arcane names as "hydrogen" and "oxygen"? Ha! What madness is this? Everyone knows that water is one of the four fundamental elements of the universe, and ice is merely one of its manifestations! You cannot "divide" an element! Ho, ho, what a merry jest this is!

Actually, I think this is pretty close to the answer, despite the jest. :smallsmile: Water is one of the four Elemental Planes, and that's what the item has power over; Ice is a Para-Elemental Plane, where Water and Air meet. Since it doesn't give control over Air, and only Water, I assume it would be a no-go on the Ice.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 05:30 PM
That's it! KILL IT WITH ANTI-WATER!

Gated by an efreeti riding a locate city bombo, with knowledge of everything in the universe, of course.

From orbit.

Oslecamo
2009-11-09, 05:35 PM
From orbit.

Pfftt, you and your theories that the earth is round and not a big plane suported by giants. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-11-09, 05:39 PM
The item does specify which metastatic phase of H2O- water, the liquid one. It would have specified H20 if it meant to include solid and gaseous forms, but instead it is just water- the liquid phase.

...I don't think that's how it works. (Also, water is accepted as both the state name and the chemical name.)

The Glyphstone
2009-11-09, 05:54 PM
Pfftt, you and your theories that the earth is round and not a big plane suported by giants. :smalltongue:

Giants? Elephants, man, elephants! On the back of a turtle!

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 06:07 PM
Actually, I think this is pretty close to the answer, despite the jest. :smallsmile: Water is one of the four Elemental Planes, and that's what the item has power over; Ice is a Para-Elemental Plane, where Water and Air meet. Since it doesn't give control over Air, and only Water, I assume it would be a no-go on the Ice.

you can extract water from practically anything though- the Extract Water Elemental spell works on anything living that does not have the Fire subtype. And Elementals count as living- the spell works on them.

By extrapolation, anything living can be assumed to contain water, unless proven otherwise.

Eldan
2009-11-09, 06:07 PM
Actually, as we all know, Gravity stops when you get more than ten kilometers up, which is why the moon doesn't fall down.

Brock Samson
2009-11-09, 06:15 PM
There's an enhancement, spellguard or spellblade, you can put on a weapon to negate one targetted type of spell unlimited times. Tune that to Greater Dispel Magic. Get cold immunity. Shapechange into a dragon with a faster fly speed than it's normal speed. Rain down hell from out of it's blasphemy reach.

Would that work?

Dervag
2009-11-09, 06:37 PM
Pfftt, you and your theories that the earth is round and not a big plane suported by giants. :smalltongue:
Giants? Elephants, man, elephants! On the back of a turtle!GAH! Everyone knows it's a giant bowl with the Midgard serpent coiled around the rim! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!?

Volkov
2009-11-09, 07:30 PM
The Abomination will almost certainly butcher your cleric and wizard first if played optimally. If the cleric falls, then your chances will be hurt significantly, if not completely ruined. If so much as one member of the party gets to only an eighth of his full hit points, you should immediately run away because things will only go downhill from there. Rest for a day and then hammer at the abomination again until you can get it right. There is a risk that by the time you fight it again, he's summoned five old white dragons and/or has made friends with another five. If that's the case, bend over and kiss your @$$ goodbye.

Volkov
2009-11-09, 07:33 PM
Pfftt, you and your theories that the earth is round and not a big plane suported by giants. :smalltongue:

The earth would crumble around said giants due to 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of silicon, aluminum, iron, magnesium, and oxygen being held on a small spot. :smalltongue: Thus it is clear that the earth is actually a giant transformer. :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 07:42 PM
The Abomination will almost certainly butcher your cleric and wizard first if played optimally. If the cleric falls, then your chances will be hurt significantly, if not completely ruined. If so much as one member of the party gets to only an eighth of his full hit points, you should immediately run away because things will only go downhill from there. Rest for a day and then hammer at the abomination again until you can get it right. There is a risk that by the time you fight it again, he's summoned five old white dragons and/or has made friends with another five. If that's the case, bend over and kiss your @$$ goodbye.

I've already listed ways to overcome its two most lethal attack forms, as well as nine (9!) different ways to defeat it.

Do you need more of them?

sambo.
2009-11-09, 07:43 PM
i gotta say, this thread is full of WIN!

i still rekon the easiest way out of this is for the sorcerer to burn a wish to return to the point just before he Meteor Swarm'ed the glacier and unleashed this thing in the first place.

and of course, he DOESN'T meteor swarm the glacier this time.....

(and what in the name of Lolth's lacy lingerie made him do such a thing in the first place?)

Volkov
2009-11-09, 07:54 PM
I've already listed ways to overcome its two most lethal attack forms, as well as nine (9!) different ways to defeat it.

Do you need more of them?

Defeat it and ten white dragons? I don't think so. Also a smart one will immediately attack the cleric, and as it will almost certainly win initiative, the cleric will be killed. Once he's gone there is no chance at winning.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 08:33 PM
Defeat it and ten white dragons? I don't think so. Also a smart one will immediately attack the cleric, and as it will almost certainly win initiative, the cleric will be killed. Once he's gone there is no chance at winning.

You could kill all 10 dragons with a single casting of telekinesis and some prep-time (assuming they all converge on you at once). It wouldn't be hard. You just have to be able to hit them.

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:35 PM
You could kill all 10 dragons with a single casting of telekinesis and some prep-time (assuming they all converge on you at once). It wouldn't be hard. You just have to be able to hit them.

And if they ambush you before you have a chance and don't converge on you while the Xixecal tears apart your cleric?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 08:41 PM
And if they ambush you before you have a chance and don't converge on you while the Xixecal tears apart your cleric?

Foresight. Shapechange. Contingency. Scry. Teleport. You pick the time and place for the fight. They can't surprise you, and you've already turned into something with the cold subtype. You cast astral projection days ago. You have a half-dozen clones. You're immune to various forms of dispel magic.

You're a high level caster, the most powerful thing this side of Mystra; now act like one. :smallamused:

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:42 PM
Foresight. Shapechange. They can't surprise you, and you've already turned into something with the cold subtype. You cast astral projection days ago. You have a half-dozen clones. You're immune to various forms of dispel magic.

You're a high level caster, the most powerful thing this side of Mystra; now act like one. :smallamused:

And if the Xixecal kills the squishy wizard and the dragons pin the cleric and perform a Cu de Gras on him?

mregecko
2009-11-09, 08:44 PM
Use caster level boosting items and effects to boost caster level to 21. Shapechange into a demilich.

You are now immune to all of his cold attacks and all of his magic.

You also fly perfectly and move faster than he does.

I'm sure we can figure out a way to get close enough to touch him enough times, and eventually he will roll a 1 and fail on your paralyzing touch.

That's what I've got.

-- G

Worira
2009-11-09, 08:45 PM
You can't Coup de Grace a pinned target. Also, the Xixecal has an INT of 12 and a WIS of 8. Why are you assuming it would organize an ambush? Or for that matter, go after a particular class first?

EDIT: And are you for some reason under the impression that the Cleric is going to get within range of the Xixecal BEFORE casting protective spells?

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:46 PM
Use caster level boosting items and effects to boost caster level to 21. Shapechange into a demilich.

You are now immune to all of his cold attacks and all of his magic.

You also fly perfectly and move faster than he does.

I'm sure we can figure out a way to get close enough to touch him enough times, and eventually he will roll a 1 and fail on your paralyzing touch.

That's what I've got.

-- G
He'd win initiative, he'd full attack the wizard, hitting him 5 times, twice for claws, once for bite, once for stamp, and once for rend, the con drain kills him before he can make a move. The cleric is pinned and torn apart by the dragons. Remaining party members won't do much of anything.

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:48 PM
You can't Coup de Grace a pinned target. Also, the Xixecal has an INT of 12 and a WIS of 8. Why are you assuming it would organize an ambush? Or for that matter, go after a particular class first?

EDIT: And are you for some reason under the impression that the Cleric is going to get within range of the Xixecal BEFORE casting protective spells?

That's above average IQ, and somewhat absent minded. It'd deduce that the guy standing in the back is a squishy wizard. And Ambushes are trivial to set up. Especially when your Initiative is probably higher than any wizard.

Worira
2009-11-09, 08:48 PM
Yes, because the wizard would walk right up to it. Of course. Wizards are well known for their habit of marching directly into melee range of giant monsters.

EDIT: They're all standing in the back! Also, I don't really think you get how initiative works.

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:49 PM
Yes, because the wizard would walk right up to it. Of course. Wizards are well known for their habit of marching directly into melee range of giant monsters.

And he would know that a Xixecal can reach out to fifty feet how?

Volkov
2009-11-09, 08:51 PM
Yes, because the wizard would walk right up to it. Of course. Wizards are well known for their habit of marching directly into melee range of giant monsters.

EDIT: They're all standing in the back! Also, I don't really think you get how initiative works.

Highest goes first, with an exception of surprise rounds.

Lapak
2009-11-09, 08:54 PM
And he would know that a Xixecal can reach out to fifty feet how?While I think a lot of character/player knowledge issues do exist, this isn't one of them. It's a really, really, really big monster. The fact that it can reach out quite a ways would be pretty obvious.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-09, 09:01 PM
He'd win initiative, he'd full attack the wizard, hitting him 5 times, twice for claws, once for bite, once for stamp, and once for rend, the con drain kills him before he can make a move. The cleric is pinned and torn apart by the dragons. Remaining party members won't do much of anything.

Doesn't have Pounce, so no full attack unless it starts within 55 feet of the sorcerer, which I find unlikely.


He'd win initiative, he'd full attack the wizard, hitting him 5 times, twice for claws, once for bite, once for stamp, and once for rend, the con drain kills him before he can make a move. The cleric is pinned and torn apart by the dragons. Remaining party members won't do much of anything.

Because it's not like 18th-level characters would have access to flight or anything. Or that, if they weren't already flying while going to pursue the massive evil glacier whose location they know, they would cast Fly immediately upon seeing it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 09:01 PM
And if the Xixecal kills the squishy wizard and the dragons pin the cleric and perform a Cu de Gras on him?

You come back in a couple of rounds and try again. AFTER recasting astral projection.

Akal Saris
2009-11-09, 09:33 PM
You know what I've learned from this thread?

The duskblade and horizon walker are just going to have to sit this one out :P

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 09:35 PM
Duskblade has CL 18, which might be good for something; and the ranger has that water-controlling McGuffin.

crazedloon
2009-11-09, 09:36 PM
You know what I've learned from this thread?

The duskblade and horizon walker are just going to have to sit this one out :P

well when a group has to stretch itself well beyond its normal CR the only people able to do so are full casters

Is there a way to force a creature onto the astral plane like astral projection. If there is it may be fun to do that and than cut his cord with your silvered sword :smallbiggrin:

Emmerask
2009-11-09, 09:50 PM
Because it's not like 18th-level characters would have access to flight or anything. Or that, if they weren't already flying while going to pursue the massive evil glacier whose location they know, they would cast Fly immediately upon seeing it.

Flying during a storm (blizzard effect from dire winter spell) is never a good idea :smallbiggrin:

streakster
2009-11-09, 09:55 PM
Flying during a storm (blizzard effect from dire winter spell) is never a good idea :smallbiggrin:

Can't the ranger just order the snow to stop moving? Then the flakes, since they're locked in place, would create plenty of resistance to the wind.

Emmerask
2009-11-09, 09:59 PM
Can't the ranger just order the snow to stop moving? Then the flakes, since they're locked in place, would create plenty of resistance to the wind.

He could and the water would surely try to abide his mighty command but gravity may have something to say about that matter too :smallredface:

streakster
2009-11-09, 10:11 PM
Oooh, a new one! Fly the ranger far, far above the thing ( and I mean, like, I-hope-you-brought-a-bottle-of-air far) and have him order the water in the air to form a titanic lens. Then roast the xixecal like a bug under a magnifying glass. Be sure to toast any dragons that pop up to bug you, too.

Flickerdart
2009-11-09, 10:27 PM
Highest goes first, with an exception of surprise rounds.
The Xixecal only has a +11 initiative modifier. One single casting of Moment of Prescience beats that handily. Even just Hummingbird, Nerveskitter and Improved Initiative is +14, not counting Dex. Full casters win initiative if they want to. And even though both of those spells aren't from the appropriate sources, Contingency and Greater Celerity are. And those are 100% guaranteed.

arguskos
2009-11-09, 10:40 PM
Oooh, a new one! Fly the ranger far, far above the thing ( and I mean, like, I-hope-you-brought-a-bottle-of-air far) and have him order the water in the air to form a titanic lens. Then roast the xixecal like a bug under a magnifying glass. Be sure to toast any dragons that pop up to bug you, too.
Eh, issue with that: targeting. The Xixecal isn't gonna just camp out while he does this, and he's SO FAR away from it that aiming the damn lens is gonna require some rather complex math to figure out.

However, if it works, it'd be HARDCORE.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-11-09, 10:43 PM
Hm...the more and more I think about it, the more I think that plan of upping the sorcerers caster level and then having him shapechange into a demilich could definitely be the way to go, a xixecal should have a hard time really hurting one of those.

sambo.
2009-11-09, 11:19 PM
You could kill all 10 dragons with a single casting of telekinesis and some prep-time (assuming they all converge on you at once). It wouldn't be hard. You just have to be able to hit them.
seriously, you must be joking.

that's like saying "I can beat Gary Kasparov and Bobby Fischer at chess, but only if they do something really dumb"

any DM who lets TEN bigarse white DRAGONS be killed with a single casting of a mid-level spell should incinerate all their DnD belongings immediatly and go play World of Warcraft/EverQuest/<insert MMORPG of choice>.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 11:25 PM
any DM who lets TEN bigarse white DRAGONS be killed with a single casting of a mid-level spell should incinerate all their DnD belongings immediatly and go play World of Warcraft/EverQuest/<insert MMORPG of choice>.

Any DM who sends a CR 36 monster after a party of level 18s without being prepared to allow some cheese is actively trying to kill them anyway.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:12 AM
seriously, you must be joking.

that's like saying "I can beat Gary Kasparov and Bobby Fischer at chess, but only if they do something really dumb"

any DM who lets TEN bigarse white DRAGONS be killed with a single casting of a mid-level spell should incinerate all their DnD belongings immediatly and go play World of Warcraft/EverQuest/<insert MMORPG of choice>.

Then just load up your spellslots with 10 telekinesises. Instead of dividing 15 shots amongst 10 dragons, divvy 150 shots amongst them. You're more likely to hit each one like that anyway. Use metamagic to lay on the hurt.

Remember that "drop shrink item'd rocks" ploy I mentioned earlier? Do something similar, only use telekinesis, and strap a bunch of the shrunken boulders together into 15 bundles that weigh up to a total of 375 lbs. Your friend should call out the command word as they fly past. You're now able to hurl 1,500,000 lbs of rocks, dealing (as suggested) 1d6 points of damage for every 25 lbs. That's 60,000d6 damage, folks. Average of 210,000. Without metamagic. Should be enough raw damage to take down whole pantheons (if you can hit, and with arcane buffs, who couldn't?).

sambo.
2009-11-10, 12:20 AM
Then just load up your spellslots with 10 telekinesises. Instead of dividing 15 shots amongst 10 dragons, divvy 150 shots amongst them. You're more likely to hit each one like that anyway. Use metamagic to lay on the hurt.

Remember that "drop shrink item'd rocks" ploy I mentioned earlier? Do something similar, only use telekinesis, and strap a bunch of the shrunken boulders together into 15 bundles that weigh up to a total of 375 lbs. Your friend should call out the command word as they fly past. You're now able to hurl 1,500,000 lbs of rocks, dealing (as suggested) 1d6 points of damage for every 25 lbs. That's 60,000d6 damage, folks. Average of 210,000. Without metamagic. Should be enough raw damage to take down whole pantheons (if you can hit, and with arcane buffs, who couldn't?).

i understand the mechanics of what you're talking about and yes, i agree it can deal out ridiculous damage.

but i can't help but think you're forgetting the greater dispel magic of the Xixecal.

Sorcerer: "i shrink XxX boulders and telekinesis them above the Xixecal!"
DM: while telekinesising, the Xixecal quickened dispels/spell turns your telekinesis and then dispels your Shrink Items, congrats, XxX now un-shrunk boulders just tumbled straight onto your head, take a boatload of damage"

Xenogears
2009-11-10, 12:24 AM
i understand the mechanics of what you're talking about and yes, i agree it can deal out ridiculous damage.

but i can't help but think you're forgetting the greater dispel magic of the Xixecal.

Sorcerer: "i shrink XxX boulders and telekinesis them above the Xixecal!"
DM: while telekinesising, the Xixecal quickened dispels/spell turns your telekinesis and then dispels your Shrink Items, congrats, XxX now un-shrunk boulders just tumbled straight onto your head, take a boatload of damage"

But the Xixecal doesn't have a quicken SLA feat so he would have to wait until his turn to start this. At that point he should be dead. Unless you are suggesting that the DM give the monster with a CR double that of the party better feats than they are written to have?

Edit:
The Xixecal only has a +11 initiative modifier. One single casting of Moment of Prescience beats that handily. Even just Hummingbird, Nerveskitter and Improved Initiative is +14, not counting Dex. Full casters win initiative if they want to. And even though both of those spells aren't from the appropriate sources, Contingency and Greater Celerity are. And those are 100% guaranteed.

According to the SRD the Xixecal actually only has a +5 Init modifier so basically everyone should have a fair chance of going first. I mean even if you have a 10 dex and nothing else it should still give you a chance of going first. With that +14 Init modifier even rolling a 1 gives you an almost 50% chance of going first...

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:29 AM
But the Xixecal doesn't have a quicken SLA feat so he would have to wait until his turn to start this. At that point he should be dead. Unless you are suggesting that the DM give the monster with a CR double that of the party better feats than they are written to have?Quicken SLA wouldn't work, either, since that would be an immediate action, not a swift action (or a free action 1/round, or whatever).

He'd have to ready an action to dispel, which means a round he hasn't done anything. A dispelled 5th level slot is worth an entire round of party's turns over an enemy, wouldn't you say?

I'd suggest reactive dispelling, but I don't want to give anybody *cough*DM*cough* ideas.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 12:29 AM
But the Xixecal doesn't have a quicken SLA feat so he would have to wait until his turn to start this. At that point he should be dead. Unless you are suggesting that the DM give the monster with a CR double that of the party better feats than they are written to have?

so it has a greater rod of quicken spell like ability?

or he just dispels the telekinesis only. bunch of shrunken boulders falls at sorcerers feet.

i'm not denying that it's a ridiculous situation for a party to wind up in and will need some cheese to get through it. but decimating a bunch of Dragons AND the CR36 Xixecal with ONE SINGLE cast of telekinesis and a bunch of Shrink Item'd boulders isn't merely "cheese", it's PunPun Chevre.

eg: cheese so stinky, it's not even cheese anymore.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:31 AM
so it has a greater rod of quicken spell like ability?

or he just dispels the telekinesis only. bunch of shrunken boulders falls at sorcerers feet.

i'm not denying that it's a ridiculous situation for a party to wind up in and will need some cheese to get through it. but decimating a bunch of Dragons AND the CR36 Xixecal with ONE SINGLE cast of telekinesis and a bunch of Shrink Item'd boulders isn't merely "cheese", it's PunPun Chevre.

eg: cheese so stinky, it's not even cheese anymore.And yet 100% core.

And some people wonder why we think psionics is better...

Xenogears
2009-11-10, 12:34 AM
so it has a greater rod of quicken spell like ability?

or he just dispels the telekinesis only. bunch of shrunken boulders falls at sorcerers feet.

i'm not denying that it's a ridiculous situation for a party to wind up in and will need some cheese to get through it. but decimating a bunch of Dragons AND the CR36 Xixecal with ONE SINGLE cast of telekinesis and a bunch of Shrink Item'd boulders isn't merely "cheese", it's PunPun Chevre.

eg: cheese so stinky, it's not even cheese anymore.

I think it would be quite odd that a random Abomination trapped in a glacier for eons just happens to have a metamagic rod with it. Also it would either be impossible to use or the size of a tower...

Also for some reason using extreme level of cheese doesn't seem like a bad idea here. I mean literally your only options are extreme cheese or plot device. As long as you don't let the players use the trick again it seems just as reasonable as forcing them to do a plot quest.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 12:39 AM
Flying during a storm (blizzard effect from dire winter spell) is never a good idea :smallbiggrin:

Miracle removes any problems the weather would present; that's one of its explicit functions.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 12:45 AM
Miracle removes any problems the weather would present; that's one of its explicit functions.

Wish (or probably Miracle) can take them back to just before they unleashed the Xixecal, presumably the sorcerer wouldn't choose to Meteor Swarm some random patch of glacier this time.

no cheese required.

Xenogears
2009-11-10, 12:49 AM
Wish (or probably Miracle) can take them back to just before they unleashed the Xixecal, presumably the sorcerer wouldn't choose to Meteor Swarm some random patch of glacier this time.

no cheese required.

But that is the most anti-climactic thing EVER! Whats the point?! You might as well just whine to the DM about it being unfair until he gives up arguing or something. The point is to overcome the insanely powerful compared to the party monster. Sure cheese or DM Fiat/Plot Device is required but it's still a more entertaining solution than just wishing it undone...

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 12:51 AM
Some not so cheesy solutions:
1. Trick it into allowing you to teleport it into a large body of water where it becomes the seed of another glacier.

2. Use the control water item to divert a river, lake, or ocean onto it, freezing it into another glacier.


I can see both of these going over pretty well with the DM. Shooting it with shrunken boulders is just asking to have the same pulled on you.


The Abomination will almost certainly butcher your cleric and wizard first if played optimally. If the cleric falls, then your chances will be hurt significantly, if not completely ruined. If so much as one member of the party gets to only an eighth of his full hit points, you should immediately run away because things will only go downhill from there. Rest for a day and then hammer at the abomination again until you can get it right. There is a risk that by the time you fight it again, he's summoned five old white dragons and/or has made friends with another five. If that's the case, bend over and kiss your @$$ goodbye.

With 12 int and 8 wisdom, I'd be pretty pissed if the DM played it optimally.


i understand the mechanics of what you're talking about and yes, i agree it can deal out ridiculous damage.

but i can't help but think you're forgetting the greater dispel magic of the Xixecal.

Sorcerer: "i shrink XxX boulders and telekinesis them above the Xixecal!"
DM: while telekinesising, the Xixecal quickened dispels/spell turns your telekinesis and then dispels your Shrink Items, congrats, XxX now un-shrunk boulders just tumbled straight onto your head, take a boatload of damage"

How does the monster know of the existence of the wizard above him? There's a Dire Winter on, and he has no ability to see through it.

'Course, he only has to make a DC 15 save to avoid the damage, so it's not like he's going to be hurt at all.

You could just drop 10,000 flasks of alchemist's fire near it, and kill it from the splash damage. That'd only cost 200,000 gp, too.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:52 AM
Is there some way to use prestidigitation to take out the epic level abominationmonstrositything?

It's colloquially known as mini-wish for a reason.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 12:53 AM
it's a hell of a lot safer than trying to fight the thing.

Xenogears
2009-11-10, 12:59 AM
How does the monster know of the existence of the wizard above him? There's a Dire Winter on, and he has no ability to see through it.

All Abominations have Blindsense 500ft. If you are withing 500ft it basically knows you are there. It also has telepathy out to 1000ft so it can talk to you even farther away...

Flickerdart
2009-11-10, 01:05 AM
All Abominations have Blindsense 500ft. If you are withing 500ft it basically knows you are there. It also has telepathy out to 1000ft so it can talk to you even farther away...
Blindsight is explicitly stated not to work in a vacuum. I'm sure they could abuse that somehow. The Xixecal has insane Spot and Listen anyway, but it was worth a shot.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 01:09 AM
Blindsight is explicitly stated not to work in a vacuum. I'm sure they could abuse that somehow. The Xixecal has insane Spot and Listen anyway, but it was worth a shot.

how did they suddenly wind up in a vacuum?

i thought this was all taking place on a glacier somewhere.....

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 01:12 AM
<_< But will it talk? I mean, if it talks in a way that can be responded to, then you know you can bluff roll against it.

Or hell, that it talks at all rather than being mute and filled with a desire to eat meat popsicles.

And gods or whatever it is that the Xixecal is supposed to do.

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 01:13 AM
All Abominations have Blindsense 500ft. If you are withing 500ft it basically knows you are there. It also has telepathy out to 1000ft so it can talk to you even farther away...

Actually, they have Blindsight (there's a difference). However, the Dire Winter is 1,000 feet radius.


Blindsight is explicitly stated not to work in a vacuum. I'm sure they could abuse that somehow. The Xixecal has insane Spot and Listen anyway, but it was worth a shot.

Both skills are explicitly stated to autofail (impossible to use) in the conditions generated by a Dire Winter.

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 01:25 AM
Actually, they have Blindsight (there's a difference). However, the Dire Winter is 1,000 feet radius.

Both skills are explicitly stated to autofail (impossible to use) in the conditions generated by a Dire Winter.

The DM might allow it to make an Epic Skill Check to hear through its own blizzard. But yeah, that is a good point.

It's going to be hard to see, to say the least, from outside the thingy. And once it's down due to a miracle or what have you, well, they've already gotten the drop on it unless the old white dragons that may or may not be around are scouting outside of the storm.


But yeah. What do Xixecals want?

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 01:31 AM
But yeah. What do Xixecals want?

It's Chaotic Evil and of the Cold subtype. I imagine it wants to make everyone as cold and lonely and frozen as it is. Global ice age. I bet it would also enjoy destroying castles.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 07:49 AM
As DM I'd ban all cheese. And any player who uses cheese, will be hit with a frying pan in real life. For example, introduce realism to the telekinesis mechanic. "You shrank your boulders, they will now deal significantly less damage." I'd especially ban cheese for a climactic encounter.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 07:55 AM
As DM I'd ban all cheese. And any player who uses cheese, will be hit with a frying pan in real life. For example, introduce realism to the telekinesis mechanic. "You shrank your boulders, they will now deal significantly less damage." I'd especially ban cheese for a climactic encounter.

and a bunch of ~lvl18 characters taking on a CR 36 monstrosity that can summon legions of big, nasty Dragons to it's aid isn't cheese to begin with?

cheese (be it via gating in mass allies or doing the suborbital bombardment with shrink-item boulders or what have you) is about the only way those characters can face it and have a hope of surviving.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 07:58 AM
and a bunch of ~lvl18 characters taking on a CR 36 monstrosity that can summon legions of big, nasty Dragons to it's aid isn't cheese to begin with?

cheese (be it via gating in mass allies or doing the suborbital bombardment with shrink-item boulders or what have you) is about the only way those characters can face it and have a hope of surviving.

I'd advise them to run away, and bring in an army of followers, fellow clerics, druids, don't take on the xixecal until you have an army of at least 1,000 guys with PC classes, and 10,000 guys with NPC classes. Keep them all at level one. They'll kill it........Eventually.

Eldariel
2009-11-10, 08:09 AM
I'd advise them to run away, and bring in an army of followers, fellow clerics, druids, don't take on the xixecal until you have an army of at least 10,000 guys with PC classes, and 100,000 guys with NPC classes.

Numbers don't matter. Mooks under level ~11 cannot harm it at all really and die to its auras pretty damn quick. You need dozens of near-epic characters. Much quicker to just pull a DBZ and increase your own power until you can face it. Go to some fast time plane to fight for years and get it.


Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Gate, etc. are the safest bets here. Shrink Item can just be dispelled/dismissed returning the boulders to normal size; I don't see the problem there. Explosive Runes...yeah.

And Gate allows you to bring in a 2xYourHD guy which means you can bring in tough enough creatures to take it down with the collaboration of the Cleric and the Sorc.

It's an abomination so just killing it tends to be the best option; it has a boatload of stupid immunities and protections making it extremely difficult to gank through any other means.


And yeah, Shapechange, Energy Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Greater Spell Immunity, Mind Blank and company are all pretty obvious ways to keep it from harming you too easily.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 08:10 AM
Numbers don't matter. Mooks under level ~11 cannot harm it at all really and die to its auras pretty damn quick. You need dozens of near-epic characters.

Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Gate, etc. are the safest bets here. Shrink Item can just be dispelled/dismissed returning the boulders to normal size; I don't see the problem there. Explosive Runes...yeah.

And Gate allows you to bring in a 2xYourHD guy which means you can bring in tough enough creatures to take it down with the collaboration of the Cleric and the Sorc.

It's an abomination so just killing it tends to be the best option; it has a boatload of stupid immunities and protections making it extremely difficult to gank through any other means.


And yeah, Shapechange, Energy Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Greater Spell Immunity, Mind Blank and company are all pretty obvious ways to keep it from harming you too easily.

Or you can throw a hundred level 10 people and watch them all die hilariously. Sure it'd automatically turn you evil, but it'll be a good laugh.

Oslecamo
2009-11-10, 08:41 AM
They already released an abomination on the world. That must count for some evil points.

So, why don't just RUN AWAY? start to evacuate people to a better plane? The material one always kinda sucked anyway.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 08:58 AM
Numbers don't matter.
SEND IN TUCKERS KOBOLDS!!!!


And Gate allows you to bring in a 2xYourHD guy which means you can bring in tough enough creatures to take it down with the collaboration of the Cleric and the Sorc.

honestly, this is probably the least cheesy and possibly the only truly feasable way of taking the Xixecal down at the levels these poor fools are at.

hell, even with epic level characters i'd probably be gating in a high powered ally (or two, or three....) to help take on that thing.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 08:59 AM
SEND IN TUCKERS KOBOLDS!!!!

I for one would pay money to see Tucker's Kobolds attempt to fend off an abomination.

jseah
2009-11-10, 09:44 AM
It doesn't take any cheese to get TK to kill it.

A DF inspiration (fire) bard + TK from the sorc (using melee weapons so they don't count as projectiles that lose to Dire Winter) will easily down the thing in a few shots.

The point is that TK + damage per attack buffs is a quadratic progression per level. Anything that increases your damage gets multiplied by your caster level. Bards have a progression of +damage buffs that increase by level.

Two of them working together have a rough damage progression of Level^2. Which gets big really fast.

Leewei
2009-11-10, 09:58 AM
You know, I'm guessing the DM doesn't expect you to kill the dang thing. It has a bajillion HPs and is far nastier than the party as far as CR goes. The DM gave the Horizon Walker the water control item for a reason. Use it to re-imprison the critter!

The party shouldn't be looking for ways to destroy this opponent. They should be looking for ways to bring it close to a large body of water. Thereafter, they should harass and distract it while the Horizon Walker brings down a tsunami of water and imprisons that sucker in a huge chunk of ice. Afterward, the one thing the party would need to address is the dragons working to exhume it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 10:15 AM
*IGNORE ME! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzeg7aA36uA)





*This post was brought to you by the Coalition for Blatant Cries for Attention, sarcasm, and the Letter H. :P

Kalirren
2009-11-10, 10:20 AM
Well - the thing can't fly, and its only ranged attacks are blasphemy and cone of cold, (and arguably dispel magic) which are both range ~ 100 feet + its movement, so as long as you stay in long range (400 ft.) you really ought to be fine.

So really you just need energy resistance. A level 15 horizon walker, assuming he was a ranger specialized against outsiders, if put on a phantom steed using a brilliant energy flaming bow (to not be affected by the wind!), ought to be able to beat the DR rather easily and keep out of its range. You just need to beat DR 20 and fast healing 30.

Edit: just to prove that point:

+1 holy axiomatic brilliant energy evil-outsider-bane longbow, GMW'ed to +5, with a casting of flame arrow on adamantine ammunition, actually -bypasses- both the DR and the regen due to having an effective bonus of +6 (+5 weapon, +1 bane) and deals double damage.

You're dealing 1d8 base +2d6 holy + 2d6 axiomatic +2d6 bane +1d6 flaming + 6 favored enemy + 5 weapon + Strength (I'd estimate about 4), all doubled for a grand average of about 88 damage per arrow. And you're manyshotting 4 arrows at a ranged touch attack against an touch AC of 9 (3 + 3 range penalties). That's over 320 damage per round. Even if you don't accept the ruling that epic DR can be bypassed with a +5 bane weapon, that's still over 240 damage per round.

The xixecal will be dead within 10 rounds.

If you can beat the 5 old white dragons (who each only have caster level 5th, pssht!) that it summons, then you should be in fine shape. I guess that's what the other members of the party are for...

You guys can totally win this.

Keshay
2009-11-10, 10:49 AM
Well - the thing can't fly, and its only ranged attacks are blasphemy and cone of cold, (and arguably dispel magic) which are both range ~ 100 feet + its movement, so as long as you stay in long range (400 ft.) you really ought to be fine.

So really you just need energy resistance. A level 15 horizon walker, assuming he was a ranger specialized against outsiders, if put on a phantom steed using a brilliant energy flaming bow (to not be affected by the wind!), ought to be able to beat the DR rather easily and keep out of its range. You just need to beat DR 20 and fast healing 30.

Edit: just to prove that point:

+1 holy axiomatic brilliant energy evil-outsider-bane longbow, GMW'ed to +5, with a casting of flame arrow on adamantine ammunition, actually -bypasses- both the DR and the regen due to having an effective bonus of +6 (+5 weapon, +1 bane) and deals double damage.

You're dealing 1d8 base +2d6 holy + 2d6 axiomatic +2d6 bane +1d6 flaming + 6 favored enemy + 5 weapon + Strength (I'd estimate about 4), all doubled for a grand average of about 88 damage per arrow. And you're manyshotting 4 arrows at a ranged touch attack against an touch AC of 9 (9 + 3 range penalties). That's over 320 damage per round. Even if you don't accept the ruling that epic DR can be bypassed with a +5 bane weapon, that's still over 240 damage per round.

The xixecal will be dead within 10 rounds.

If you can beat the 5 old white dragons (who each only have caster level 5th, pssht!) that it summons, then you should be in fine shape. I guess that's what the other members of the party are for...

You guys can totally win this.

Why a ranged touch attack? Natural Armor works normally against Brilliant, You'll still need to hit AC 58.

Kalirren
2009-11-10, 10:52 AM
Why a ranged touch attack? Natural Armor works normally against Brilliant, You'll still need to hit AC 58.

Keshay, you're right. Natural armor's the weird one. I always forget that.

Well, if you had any feats to spare on the ranger, you could take Psionic Shot and Fell Shot, which would allow you to resolve the manyshot as a touch attack with the expenditure of psionic focus.

I don't know any way of getting that touch attack aside from brilliant energy, though.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-11-10, 11:04 AM
You could gate in a Phaethon. Sure you won't have control over it, but you can just bring it in to fight the xixecal, and then take on whichever one wins immediately after the fight is over.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-10, 11:14 AM
You could gate in a Phaethon. Sure you won't have control over it, but you can just bring it in to fight the xixecal, and then take on whichever one wins immediately after the fight is over.

In that case, you have to raise the CL up to 31.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-11-10, 11:17 AM
In that case, you have to raise the CL up to 31.

Only if you wanted to actually control it. I'm sure a fire abomination doesn't need much control from the person summoning it to attack an ice abomination.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 11:19 AM
Only if you wanted to actually control it. I'm sure a fire abomination doesn't need much control from the person summoning it to attack an ice abomination.

Ah but if you raise the CL successfully, you can just have it leave after the Xix is dead. No second combat necessary.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-10, 11:34 AM
I don't see why could be a good idea leave ANOTHER abomination free to roam around.

And.. if they ally? CE. Abominations.

"why dont' we try a challenge? I burn, you freeze, let'see who ruins first and more the plane"

"FUNNY!"

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 11:50 AM
To be fair, the fact that they are both CE points against cooperation. Not to mention, they have an active reason to hate each other (cold subtype vs. fire subtype.) And finally, the surrounding landscape could be protected against their clashing with a carefully worded Miracle.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 11:53 AM
What qualifies as cheese? I don't see how any of these suggestions are "cheesy". A fast time demiplane is cheesy. Infinite or near-infinite loops are cheesy. Throwing lots of rocks at something is not cheesy.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-10, 11:57 AM
You could gate in a Phaethon. Sure you won't have control over it, but you can just bring it in to fight the xixecal, and then take on whichever one wins immediately after the fight is over.

Does this strike anyone else as a really bad idea? :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 11:57 AM
What qualifies as cheese? I don't see how any of these suggestions are "cheesy". A fast time demiplane is cheesy. Infinite or near-infinite loops are cheesy. Throwing lots of rocks at something is not cheesy.Especially when leveraged against a god-killing, world-devouring abomination that is ostensibly several dozens of times stronger than you.

You gotta take what you can get.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-10, 12:00 PM
To be fair, the fact that they are both CE points against cooperation. Not to mention, they have an active reason to hate each other (cold subtype vs. fire subtype.) And finally, the surrounding landscape could be protected against their clashing with a carefully worded Miracle.

Yeah, but see: what I said was not a lawful cooperation, is a rush to see who's the real big divine error.

Yeah, in D&D fire and cold clash a lot of times but is not mandatory. And could a single miracle protect the whole world?

How many miracles want you ask to your god? Even if, I've to admit, if the god does not answer... he/she's likely to lose all the followers :smallbiggrin:

Kalirren
2009-11-10, 12:02 PM
On second thought, if you're not trying to -kill- it but just want it to -go away-, you could have your 9th-level arcane caster do the following:

Cast Time Stop.
DD to the Xixecal's location.
Position a bag of holding above a portable hole (a move action), then DD out.

and watch as it gets sucked into the Astral Plane, no save, no SR.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 12:03 PM
Especially when leveraged against a god-killing, world-devouring abomination that is ostensibly several dozens of times stronger than you..

Eh. Pun-Pun is still cheesy even if all he does with the power is be a benevolent overgod.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:06 PM
On second thought, if you're not trying to -kill- it but just want it to -go away-, you could have your 9th-level arcane caster do the following:

Cast Time Stop.
DD to the Xixecal's location.
Position a bag of holding above a portable hole (a move action), then DD out.

and watch as it gets sucked into the Astral Plane, no save, no SR.BRILLIANT!

Of course, it was my idea to begin with, but...

BRILLIANT!

Now, let's just hope that it starts devouring the githyanki while it's there.

...at least until the Vlaakith dominates it and uses it for her own purposes...err...

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:07 PM
Eh. Pun-Pun is still cheesy even if all he does with the power is be a benevolent overgod.The OP did request help with destroying it.

Can't do that without something cheesy or plot-related (with a heaping helping of cheddar).

So, cheese, or railroad with cheese? Your choice.

Kalirren
2009-11-10, 12:08 PM
And by that I mean position the portable hole above the bag, because that's the one that actually draws creatures in within a 10-ft. radius.

Seriously, though, I'm sure there's some way of doing this using alchemist's fire, which requires only a touch attack and deals 7 damage a pop (14, if crafted using the epic rules, but that's what you have +30 to craft(alchemy) items for). You'd only need to have 300 (150) flasks hit in the same round to kill the xixecal, or slightly more than that if spread out over some length of time.

A troop of 60 flying slingers could do it. A troop of 150 6th-level flying slingers could do it in a single round. You'd still need the Miracle to negate the Dire Winter.

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 12:09 PM
Kalirren has won the thread.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:12 PM
Kalirren has won the thread.Darn you, AstralFire. Every time I see you now, I have the urge to squeal...

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 12:15 PM
Darn you, AstralFire. Every time I see you now, I have the urge to squeal...

I have that effect on a lot of people. n_~

Keshay
2009-11-10, 12:15 PM
On second thought, if you're not trying to -kill- it but just want it to -go away-, you could have your 9th-level arcane caster do the following:

Cast Time Stop.
DD to the Xixecal's location.
Position a bag of holding above a portable hole (a move action), then DD out.

and watch as it gets sucked into the Astral Plane, no save, no SR.

Actually, you need to place the Hole in the bag in order to get anything else sucked into the Astral Plane along with the items. edit: bah, ninja'd

It also states that only creatures within 10 feet of the bag of holding gets sucked in. Since the creature is Colossal, it takes up more space than is affected by the rift, so it would not get sucked in, the rift just is not big enough.

This is, however a great way to deal with humanoid enemies incapable of plane shift. A little costly, but effective.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 12:16 PM
I have that effect on a lot of people. n_~

It's a meme. They tend to spread like that. :)

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 12:18 PM
Yeah, but:

It's not actually killing the monster, it's defeating him.
It's a clever tactic that doesn't require close perusal of the rules (and thus feels less 'cheesy')


Any DM that throws a CR 36 at a L17/18 party and wouldn't allow some flexibility in dealing with the threat... well, he either hates you or he likes Thomas the Train.


It's a meme. They tend to spread like that. :)

Shh, don't ruin my moment of glory.

crazedloon
2009-11-10, 12:26 PM
what was wrong with my plan :smallfrown: .... it wasn't cheesy and it worked ....

(also add on to my plan the sorc using all his extra xp to craft scrolls of mastered acid arrow so the who party can get in on the games :smallwink: also acid fog is a good choice for scrolls (if the cleric has access to the water domain) as they can placed on the corners of its body to cause a harder time to dispel )

Keshay
2009-11-10, 12:41 PM
what was wrong with my plan :smallfrown: .... it wasn't cheesy and it worked ....

Where you used Astral Projection to get it onto the Astral Plane?
This is the problem:

Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels

Even if it could effect unwilling enemies, you'd still have to survive getting to it, touch it, then overcome its SR.

crazedloon
2009-11-10, 12:45 PM
Where you used Astral Projection to get it onto the Astral Plane?
This is the problem:


Even if it could effect unwilling enemies, you'd still have to survive getting to it, touch it, then overcome its SR.

no that was a fun thought experiment (I was seeing if anyone knew of a spell which did that)

My actual plan which involves lots of fire arrows is on like page 2 or 3

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 01:28 PM
no that was a fun thought experiment (I was seeing if anyone knew of a spell which did that)

My actual plan which involves lots of fire arrows is on like page 2 or 3

The main problem with fire arrows is that you can´t use ranged attacks during a storm which the perma dire winter epic spell produces(see table wind effects)
ranged attacks from siege engines do work however

Xenogears
2009-11-10, 01:48 PM
The main problem with fire arrows is that you can´t use ranged attacks during a storm which the perma dire winter epic spell produces(see table wind effects)
ranged attacks from siege engines do work however

I believe the idea is that since they are actually spells they bypass the Dire Winter effect. Alternatively you could miracle the Dire Winter effect away for a few hours. Summoning the Fire Abomination would be so awesome if it worked though....

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 01:56 PM
Climb and stab. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_YCSi8Cg0)

Just...please do a better job than he did...

arguskos
2009-11-10, 02:10 PM
So, cheese, or railroad with cheese? Your choice.
Royale with cheese.

Sorry, just bein' silly.

As for killing a Xixecal, as a DM, I'd be rather underwhelmed if the party manages to figure out all these options, some of which are really creative and good ideas... and then decides to Telekinesis rocks at it. Kind of a crappy way to end the DOOOOOM monster. It's not a really cheesy way to do it, but it IS underwhelming.

I personally feel the Time Stop-->Bag/Hole combo is the most amusing and most impressive way to deal with it. You have to be right next to it for that to function anyways, so you have to deal with the Dire Winter and it's giant size. Seems appropriate.

Karsh
2009-11-10, 02:13 PM
...yeah, Cindy (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890) could do this. You'd have to Limited Wish to Psychic Reform her Piercing Cold, Easy Metamagic, and Energy Admixture feats to Fire and switch the Arcane Thesis-ed Orb spell to something other than fire, but... you'd get:

2 ranged touch attacks with a range of 70 feet, enlarged to 140 feet with a rod if necessary, as a standard action against AC 3 that each do either 360+30d6 fire damage (465 damage average, 930 if both hit) if you interpret Searing Spell's double damage vs. Cold subtype creatures to overlap with the special weakness of the Xixecal, or 450+37d6 (579 average, 1158 if both hit) if you give the extra .5x damage from the special weakness. In either case, as long as you don't roll a 1, a standard action Uber Orb of Doom spell and a quickened Uber Orb of Doom do, on average, 1860 damage in one round (and at least 1560 damage if all 120 d6es come up as ones, which has a probability of 4.18648899x10^-94), giving it no opportunity to regenerate and melting it into a puddle of suck.

So the strategy would be to Greater Teleport to 70 feet away from the Xixecal, win initiative (guaranteed with Moment of Prescience), and then spend a standard and swift action to hit it with two castings of Uber Orb of Doom. The move action can then be used to shout "Bananas!" triggering your Contingent Greater Teleport that takes you back to your bed with warm milk and your rat familiar Cuddles waiting for you while leveling up a gazillion times for soloing a CR 36 monster at level 18.

You guys are probably hosed, but pursue the water thing. If you haven't optimized to the point where your DM is unleasing Abominations to challenge you, you're in trouble.


EDIT: In a more interesting pitched battle version, we use Cindy as she is and her damage is limited to 180+15d6 damage per casting of Uber Orb of Doom. That means it takes her, on average, assuming she can Quicken an Uber Orb of Death every round as well, 4 rounds to kill it.

If Cindy brings three friends and her trusty familiar, Cuddles, things get more interesting. If she gives her little buddy Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability and a Circlet of Rapid Casting, she can load in 3 Uber Orbs of Doom to Cuddles, and put an additional Uber Orb of Doom in rings of Spell Storing for each of her friends... That leads to 2 (Cindy) + 2 (Cuddles) + 3 (Allies) castings of Uber Orb of Doom in the first round [assuming they all win initiative] for average damage of 1624. Some luck with rolling the 105d6 variable damage, and it's dead.

If you make the argument that Greater Teleporting in gives them a surprise round, then it's almost guaranteed. Everyone gets a standard action and Cindy and Cuddles both use swift actions, hitting it with 6 Uber Orbs of Doom for 1392 average damage, then on the next turn, Cindy and Cuddles (sharing Moment of Prescience to auto-win initiative) each fire off another orb for another 464 average damage. Even if one of the other attacks misses, Cindy can use another Quickened Uber Orb of Doom to try and make up for it. If more than one fails, Cindy instead uses Greater Teleport with her Standard action to get everyone out before the Xixecal can react.

Thus, with the reasonable argument that Teleporting to within 70 feet of an Abomination from whatever distance warrants a surprise round, Cindy and some friends can, in one round, kill Xixecal, a walking glacier, with Cold damage.

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 02:41 PM
To me it seems logical that orb spells would follow the same rules as other projectiles they are none magic after creation after all (thats why they work in amfs) so if I where the dm I wouldn´t allow the use of orb spells in a storm :smalltongue:
But to my knowledge the whole conjuration creation not magic after creation was never satisfactorily explained by wotc except the works in amf bit (but all the other implications like does spellturning work? does globe of inv work etc etc not that I know of atleast) so I might be wrong there :smallcool:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 02:45 PM
The reason projectiles don't work is that the wind blows them off-target. A bit harder to do when you're using a giant glob of sonic (lol) that only requires touch accuracy.

Karsh
2009-11-10, 02:48 PM
I'll allow the argument. Piercing Cold Cindy has a few more problems, but Searing Fire Cindy doesn't give a hoot. With a surprise round, she can use Mordenkainen's Disjunction to eliminate the Dire Winter before unloading her machine gun of death. Piercing Cold Cindy can do so but has to hope that her allies all hit with their Uber Orbs of Doom because she gets one less orb off in the surprise round. Searing Fire Cindy actually kills the Xixecal faster in a surprise round, even with having to disjoin the dire winter.

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 02:52 PM
exactly a GIANT orb of xy
bigger means more area exposed to wind (an arrow has very little on the other hand)
one could argue that the orbs travel at such a high speed that they ignore all outside effects hm might be some kind of explanation.
Still I really would like to get a much more detailed customer support answer regarding the whole conjuration creation stuff ^^

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 02:55 PM
Any DM that throws a CR 36 at a L17/18 party and wouldn't allow some flexibility in dealing with the threat... well, he either hates you or he likes Thomas the Train.

Really?
Why can't the PCs just run away and/or search for a method to destroy it without abusing the rules?

Because everything the PCs encounter should have to be defeated in a straight-up fight?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 02:59 PM
Mass bombardment with boulders is hardly a straight-up fight. While many of these methods stretch the rules, I don't believe that many of them actually abuse the rules. My abuse threshold seems higher than most, though.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-10, 02:59 PM
exactly a GIANT orb of xy
bigger means more area exposed to wind (an arrow has very little on the other hand)
one could argue that the orbs travel at such a high speed that they ignore all outside effects hm might be some kind of explanation.
Still I really would like to get a much more detailed customer support answer regarding the whole conjuration creation stuff ^^

Please explain how wind can push soundwaves off course. Because that's what Orb of Sonic is. Orb of Fire I can kinda see the wind affecting, but definitely not Sonic or Cold.

Karsh
2009-11-10, 03:04 PM
Mass bombardment with boulders is hardly a straight-up fight. While many of these methods stretch the rules, I don't believe that many of them actually abuse the rules. My abuse threshold seems higher than most, though.

The boulder issue is that each boulder does damage individually, so DR applies separately to each one.

Keshay
2009-11-10, 03:04 PM
Really?
Why can't the PCs just run away and/or search for a method to destroy it without abusing the rules?

Because everything the PCs encounter should have to be defeated in a straight-up fight?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly the point Astral was making. Creative solutions to this sort of dilema should be rewarded, even if they do bend the rules a little.

In the earlier suggested tactic of using a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding to suck it into the Astral Plane, sure it would not usually work because the rift opened isn't big enough. But if the players were to comission a triple-usual sized Bag of Holding and a XXL sized Protable Hole, then use those to open a triple usual-sized rift I'd defintely let that work.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-10, 03:06 PM
exactly a GIANT orb of xy
bigger means more area exposed to wind (an arrow has very little on the other hand)
one could argue that the orbs travel at such a high speed that they ignore all outside effects hm might be some kind of explanation.
Still I really would like to get a much more detailed customer support answer regarding the whole conjuration creation stuff ^^

They use magic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/)

Keshay
2009-11-10, 03:06 PM
Please explain how wind can push soundwaves off course. Because that's what Orb of Sonic is. Orb of Fire I can kinda see the wind affecting, but definitely not Sonic or Cold.

Have you ever been in a blizard? You can be looking directly at a sound source, yet you can hear it coming from behind to to the side of you.

SurlySeraph
2009-11-10, 03:08 PM
I have been in a blizzard and don't remember that happening. But given that I was 6, I doubt I'd remember it. Fair enough, that makes sense.

Boci
2009-11-10, 03:12 PM
Have you ever been in a blizard? You can be looking directly at a sound source, yet you can hear it coming from behind to to the side of you.

True, but that sound could not have done 1d6 damage per caster level.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 03:15 PM
The boulder issue is that each boulder does damage individually, so DR applies separately to each one.It's easy enough to tie them together using a shrink item'd rope. One clump = One casting of telekinesis = One attack and damage roll.

Or just use fabricate. It's fabulous.

Keshay
2009-11-10, 03:22 PM
True, but that sound could not have done 1d6 damage per caster level.

Touche, I concede to your superior logic.

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 04:56 PM
<_< What is visibility within the dire winter storm effect anyway?

Spot and Listen don't work in it, right? Which implies some form of concealment, yeah?

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 05:07 PM
<_< What is visibility within the dire winter storm effect anyway?


Powerful Storms

Very high winds and torrential precipitation reduce visibility to zero, making Spot, Search, and Listen checks and all ranged weapon attacks impossible. Unprotected flames are automatically extinguished, and protected flames have a 75% chance of being doused. Creatures caught in the area must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or face the effects based on the size of the creature (see Table: Wind Effects).

so should be full concealment I guess

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 05:20 PM
Looks like those skill ranks aren't doing the Xixecal much good, then.

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 05:24 PM
So you can't target it unless you know it's going to be in the center of the effect and are far enough away that you can figure out where the center is. Right?

So basically negating the dire winter is pretty essential to all forms of defeating it that involve targeting it.

jseah
2009-11-10, 05:28 PM
Hmmm... wasn't there a material that allowed you to attack from Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material?
I recall some CO board discussion centering around that.

If that's so, then you ignore alot of his abilities. Just Flame Arrow TK it to death from a plane shift.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 05:35 PM
Hmmm... wasn't there a material that allowed you to attack from Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material?
I recall some CO board discussion centering around that.

If that's so, then you ignore alot of his abilities. Just Flame Arrow TK it to death from a plane shift.Transdimensional Spell would work.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 05:45 PM
Really, since your party has proven themselves to be jerks (accidentally releasing a horrible and incredibly pissed off quasi-god monster on accident is an 13 on the five star jerk rating). Summon all of your "friends", and throw them at the Abomination, if they do not defeat it, you get a good laugh and a hopefully weakened monster, if you do defeat it, you win. If any manage to survive. Kill them right away, you can't risk any of them becoming future enemies.

Boci
2009-11-10, 05:45 PM
Transdimensional Spell would work.

Nope. Only allows spell to go from the material plane to the ethereal one, not vice versa.

Brendan
2009-11-10, 05:45 PM
My suggestion? use the 500,000 to pay an epic party to kill it. easy, and low risk.

Boci
2009-11-10, 05:46 PM
My suggestion? use the 500,000 to pay an epic party to kill it. easy, and low risk.

Would also be a nice chance to rp epic level adventurers.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 05:48 PM
My suggestion? use the 500,000 to pay an epic party to kill it. easy, and low risk.

That's not quite as funny as paying a hundred level ten people to fight it, and watching them get slaughtered in a hilarious fashion, the monster and it's white dragons should be weakened. Unless of course by then it has gathered an army of white dragons numbering in the thousands. In that case, teleport to another habitable celestial body and start fresh. After all, Xixecals can't cross the gulf of space.....or at least I think they can't However if my memory serves, forming an coherent army of one of the least intelligent, least social, and one of the most chaotic true dragons is bound to end in failure.

Chrono22
2009-11-10, 05:58 PM
My suggestion? use the 500,000 to pay an epic party to kill it. easy, and low risk.
No need to go to those guys. They charge too much.
The wizard/red wizard on the first page can handle it.

jseah
2009-11-10, 06:04 PM
Found it. Ethereal Reaver, page 107 C. Psi.

Too bad it's a longsword. You're going to need a ubercharger to do it.

On the bright side, you get to buff the charger with wraithstrike to attack touch AC. Which means auto-hit except on 1 even with full power attack.

EDIT: TK can work, if you're willing to buy 20 of them. And your DM allows the sword to activate without being weilded.

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 06:11 PM
Hmmm... wasn't there a material that allowed you to attack from Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material?
I recall some CO board discussion centering around that.

If that's so, then you ignore alot of his abilities. Just Flame Arrow TK it to death from a plane shift.

Ghost touch weapons'll do it (or was it the wraith strike enchantment). But they have to be enchanted properly to get through DR and Regen and even then it still has fast healing 30.

I wonder how many people you can get whittling at it from the ethereal at once though. It's got a huge vertical size...

So it takes up A squares on the horizontal(x) plane and has B squares/cubes of facing per vertical(y) level it has horizontal dimensionality on plus C cubes/squares of facing for the level above(flying) and below(burrowing) it.

You'd need a way to keep up with its move-speed though, since it can retreat more or less freely, as it will if it finds itself experiencing burning pain from being wherever it is.

What's the minimum level of beatstick and equipment necessary to get through to do some actual damage per person so that it'll add up?

Volkov
2009-11-10, 06:27 PM
However, if the Xixecal falls, judging by what I can gather of your DM's personality, You will face a Paragon, Pseudonatural, max hit dice Hecantoncheries as your level reached level twenty surprise "present". And no, there really is no way to penetrate spell resistance 700 at level 20. And yes, it's energy resistance and number of tentacle and rake attacks will be ridiculous.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-10, 06:45 PM
And no, there really is no way to penetrate spell resistance 700 at level 20. And yes, it's energy resistance and number of tentacle and rake attacks will be ridiculous.

Aaaaannd, these bother the same Piercing Fire Cindy we used to kill the Xixecal how exactly?:smallbiggrin:

Signmaker
2009-11-10, 06:49 PM
Aaaaannd, these bother the same Piercing Fire Cindy we used to kill the Xixecal how exactly?:smallbiggrin:

Teehee, Cindy strikes yet again.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 06:50 PM
Aaaaannd, these bother the same Piercing Fire Cindy we used to kill the Xixecal how exactly?:smallbiggrin:

Fire resistance 20 from being an abomination. Not to mention it'd have an initiative of +23, which is more than many rogues. And more hit points than a raging barbarian's wet dream could ever possess. Plus, You'd only be dealing it nonlethal damage. Let's also not forget that it would have 100 great sword attacks and 35 tentacle rakes. 135 attacks from a 140 hit dice, paragon, psuedonatural Hecantoncheires would kill a raging barbarian really fast.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-10, 06:56 PM
'Cept that Searing Spell ignores Fire Resistance, and Moment of Prescience gives Cindy a bonus to her Initiative check almost equal to the Heca's entire initative score. She can't actually kill it with orbs, but she can knock it a couple thousand HP into the negative in a few rounds, from a range it can't get to fast enough to take her out. then her mook Fighter party member slits its throat(s) with a +1 Holy Sword.

Asklepian
2009-11-10, 06:57 PM
Thanks to everybody for the feedback! Even the ones that consisted of 'well, you had a good run. Time to enjoy what little time remains to you.' Since that was my own conclusion at the start. ;)

I do think our plan is going to have to hinge on the horizon walker's water control PLOT! abilities. Trying to refreeze the Xixecal into a new imprisoning glacier is probably worth a shot, and might at least buy us some time.

And yes, Volkov, that sounds about right for his style. As near as I can tell we're looking at a Götterdämmerung situation as the BEST possible outcome of the campaign. Multiple abominations are loose (we already killed a Chichimec, actually, and we're relatively sure there's an Atropal and a Phane on the move too), gods are dying, the multiverse collapsing into war and chaos. Good times. And as unfair as it all sounds, we're enjoying ourselves, and that's the real key, hey?

As it is, if reimprisoning it fails, we may just have to wait until we're stronger. I never really liked Icewind Dale anyways...

Volkov
2009-11-10, 07:01 PM
'Cept that Searing Spell ignores Fire Resistance, and Moment of Prescience gives Cindy a bonus to her Initiative check almost equal to the Heca's entire initative score. She can't actually kill it with orbs, but she can knock it a couple thousand HP into the negative in a few rounds, from a range it can't get to fast enough to take her out. then her mook Fighter party member slits its throat(s) with a +1 Holy Sword.

I am almost certain most DM's would call shenanigans on that and disallow it. Especially jerk arse DM's who throw abominations at non-epic level people. Heck, I bet he'd find some way to make it so that the Hecantoncheires would have the element of surprise, and then it would proceed to use a full attack, hitting someone until they are dead, then moving onto the next guy until everyone's dead or it runs out of attacks.

Volkov
2009-11-10, 07:03 PM
And if your DM really feels like screwing you up the arse. He'll throw a great wyrm Prism dragon at you as your "Mid-way through level 20" surprise. My old DM did, and we did the one thing a party of a Lich Cleric, Ultralithid Psion, Half Dragon Blackscale Lizard Folk Fighter, and Poison dusk lizard folk rogue would do. Run screaming like little children being chased by an angry, angry bear.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-10, 07:10 PM
I am almost certain most DM's would call shenanigans on that and disallow it. Especially jerk arse DM's who throw abominations at non-epic level people. Heck, I bet he'd find some way to make it so that the Hecantoncheires would have the element of surprise, and then it would proceed to use a full attack, hitting someone until they are dead, then moving onto the next guy until everyone's dead or it runs out of attacks.

At which point the players beat him into unconsciousness with their books, or just leave. Searing Spell Cindy is a perfectly legal, if incredibly high-optimization, build that can kill almost anything in a few hits (including Fire-immune creatures). If the DM is going to ignore the rules, he doesn't need to use an Abomination to do it, he can kill the entire party with a CR 1/8 Rat that just happens to be immune to all status effects and HP damage with over nine thousand attacks per round that cause instant death. Which would be cool, but kinda undermines your point.


Cindy could also kill the Great Wyrm Prismatic. It's a disgusting build, really.:smallwink:

Volkov
2009-11-10, 07:11 PM
At which point the players beat him into unconsciousness with their books, or just leave. Searing Spell Cindy is a perfectly legal, if incredibly high-optimization, build that can kill almost anything in a few hits (including Fire-immune creatures). If the DM is going to ignore the rules, he doesn't need to use an Abomination to do it, he can kill the entire party with a CR 1/8 Rat that just happens to be immune to all status effects and HP damage with over nine thousand attacks per round that cause instant death. Which would be cool, but kinda undermines your point.


Cindy could also kill the Great Wyrm Prismatic. It's a disgusting build, really.:smallwink:
Prismatics are immune to searing light spells.

jseah
2009-11-10, 07:13 PM
Searing Spell isn't a searing light effect.