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View Full Version : Real World Example of Epic Tumble



ghashxx
2009-11-08, 11:59 PM
This man is basically falling down the sand dune as most of the time he's in the air. Absolutely incredible video (http://video.yahoo.com/network/100063489?v=6250057&l=100063517)

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-09, 01:04 AM
You have seen nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MeiwLLZjDo&feature=player_profilepage)

I do wonder if this is the appropriate forum, though.

Grynning
2009-11-09, 01:12 AM
The music on this one is annoying, but these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSr1pozm6Y) Eastern European (Russian?) kids are pretty awesome too.

Also, watch a Tony Jaa movie, any of them (Ong-Bak and the Protector are the two you may have heard of). He does all of his stunts without wires.

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-09, 01:14 AM
Bah, it's not epic until one of them dodges a forty foot wide explosion in a 5x5 room.

Seriously though, that was amazing.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 01:15 AM
You have seen nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MeiwLLZjDo&feature=player_profilepage)

I do wonder if this is the appropriate forum, though.

Wow, that guy is AWESOME

Harperfan7
2009-11-09, 01:17 AM
Bah, it's not epic until one of them dodges a forty foot wide explosion in a 5x5 room.

Seriously though, that was amazing.

lol. Somebody draw a comic!

Boci
2009-11-09, 01:25 AM
Whilst awesome, is there any reason to assume he's even beaten the DC: 25 check?

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-09, 01:27 AM
Whilst awesome, is there any reason to assume he's even beaten the DC: 25 check?

Are you kidding? This man takes AOOs from no one. Not because he's too fast for them to hit, but because after he does five flips off a wall all they can do is stare, slack-jawed.

Boci
2009-11-09, 01:30 AM
Are you kidding? This man takes AOOs from no one. Not because he's too fast for them to hit, but because after he does five flips off a wall all they can do is stare, slack-jawed.

I'll accept he beating the 15 DC check to avoid an AoO (although against a trained combatant I doubt he actually would, since that would constitute combat and he would be unable to take a 10, meaning it would not succeed 100% of the time).

Harperfan7
2009-11-09, 01:34 AM
Whilst awesome, is there any reason to assume he's even beaten the DC: 25 check?

...

Do really think this guy needs more than a free action to kip up?

Cuz I don't.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 01:35 AM
with him, he probably can use the kip up as part of his full round attack.

Boci
2009-11-09, 01:36 AM
...

Do really think this guy needs more than a free action to kip up?

Cuz I don't.

In combat with a trained opponent activly trying to make that task hard for him? Possibly yes. Outside of combat, yeah sure, he could do it as a free action.

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-09, 01:48 AM
I'll accept he beating the 15 DC check to avoid an AoO (although against a trained combatant I doubt he actually would, since that would constitute combat and he would be unable to take a 10, meaning it would not succeed 100% of the time).

To make the DC 15 every time, he just needs to be level 5, with max ranks, skill focus, and a dex of 16.

Solaris
2009-11-09, 01:48 AM
I'll accept he beating the 15 DC check to avoid an AoO (although against a trained combatant I doubt he actually would, since that would constitute combat and he would be unable to take a 10, meaning it would not succeed 100% of the time).

Only if you've houseruled that 1 always fails.

Boci
2009-11-09, 01:52 AM
To make the DC 15 every time, he just needs to be level 5, with max ranks, skill focus, and a dex of 16.

You think he's 5th level? (Not to mention the skill focus thing)


Only if you've houseruled that 1 always fails.

You think he has a tumble modifier of +14 or greater?

Jade_Tarem
2009-11-09, 02:34 AM
You think he's 5th level? (Not to mention the skill focus thing)

I think you might be taking this a wee bit too seriously. I am, however, confident that it would be *very* difficult to hit him if he didn't want you to. Are we saying a Kung Fu Master could never touch him? No, but this guy is pretty clearly near the peak of human agility.

Boci
2009-11-09, 02:42 AM
I think you might be taking this a wee bit too seriously. I am, however, confident that it would be *very* difficult to hit him if he didn't want you to. Are we saying a Kung Fu Master could never touch him? No, but this guy is pretty clearly near the peak of human agility.

I'm genuinly interested as to what people think his tumble mod would be. I'd place it around +6-8.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 02:57 AM
With acrobatic, skill focus, 18 dex, 5 ranks in jump, and 2 levels, he's getting +14 to his tumble modifier.

An 18 dex puts him in the top 3% of people. That's really not that outstanding of an accomplishment, given 6 billion people. He trains at a gym nearly every day, and has a natural aptitude for tumbling- there's his skill focus & acrobatic feats. He is good at jumping- definitely has 5 ranks in that. Being level 2 really isn't that much of a stretch. He's already gone through high school. That should have given him 1 level of NPC experience, you'd think.

His average tumble check is 24.

sonofzeal
2009-11-09, 02:59 AM
I'm genuinly interested as to what people think his tumble mod would be. I'd place it around +6-8.
That small?

His average would be 17-ish then. That means that anything he can do reliably, any random schmo off the street could do if he got lucky.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:05 AM
That small?

His average would be 17-ish then. That means that anything he can do reliably, any random schmo off the street could do if he got lucky.

Not really. Mechanically they could, but visually they might never be able to compete.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:12 AM
Not really. Mechanically they could, but visually they might never be able to compete.

....
Not to be rude, but have you ever done anything remotely physical in your life?
This guy is a phenomenal athlete- world class. His stunts on his worst day would be far, far superior than any average jerk could ever hope to achieve. Just his ability to map his body in space is amazing.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:16 AM
....
Not to be rude, but have you ever done anything remotely physical in your life?

Disguising an insult as a question doesn't change the fact that its an insult. I acknowledged it was amazing, I just don't think its epic level, or maybe even tumble. (It could be perform)


This guy is a phenomenal athlete- world class. His stunts on his worst day would be far, far superior than any average jerk could ever hope to achieve. Just his ability to map his body in space is amazing.

World class? Some of the videos posted here (not the first) are hardly better than the average street breakdancing. Amazing, but not that rare.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 03:23 AM
how do you come to the 6-8 figure?

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:25 AM
Disguising an insult as a question doesn't change the fact that its an insult. I acknowledged it was amazing, I just don't think its epic level, or maybe even tumble. (It could be perform)

I'm not insulting you. I find people who don't undertake physical activity to be highly dismissive of incredible feats because they don't grok how hard it is.

I, too, don't think he's making an epic check, but he definitely has more than a +6-8 mod.



World class? Some of the videos posted here (not the first) are hardly better than the average street breakdancing. Amazing, but not that rare.

I don't know what streets you're hanging out on, but those acrobatic skills could not in any way be described as "average."

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:28 AM
how do you come to the 6-8 figure?

2nd level + 14 dex. He may have skill focus if this is actually his trade, but I do not know for sure if it is.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:30 AM
I'm not insulting you. I find people who don't undertake physical activity to be highly dismissive of incredible feats because they don't grok how hard it is.

Generally if you have to say "not to be rude" before something, you are being insulting.


I, too, don't think he's making an epic check, but he definitely has more than a +6-8 mod.

So what do you place it at?


I don't know what streets you're hanging out on, but those acrobatic skills could not in any way be described as "average."

Come to eastern europe?

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:37 AM
Generally if you have to say "not to be rude" before something, you are being insulting.

Or it could be because what I said could be taken as insulting.


So what do you place it at?

+14, if he's really free running. If it's rehearsed, I'd put it lower; +6 to +10. With video, you can just show off all the times you rolled a nat 20.


Come to eastern europe?

Isn't that where the world's best gymnasts come from?

charl
2009-11-09, 03:42 AM
2nd level + 14 dex. He may have skill focus if this is actually his trade, but I do not know for sure if it is.

In the modern world you would hardly have to work with something to justify skill focus in it.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:44 AM
In the modern world you would hardly have to work with something to justify skill focus in it.

Why not? If he's a human thats two feats. So unless he makes a living at the circas I'm not sure he'd be willing to spend 50% of his feats to improve that.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:45 AM
Why not? If he's a human thats two feats. So unless he makes a living at the circas I'm not sure he'd be willing to spend 50% of his feats to improve that.

That's kind of meta-gamey.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-09, 03:47 AM
2nd level + 14 dex.

I wonder what your idea of 18 dexterity would be.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:47 AM
That's kind of meta-gamey.

I duno. I think everyone has a prettty good idea what feats they take.


Or it could be because what I said could be taken as insulting.

Fair enough.


+14, if he's really free running. If it's rehearsed, I'd put it lower; +6 to +10. With video, you can just show off all the times you rolled a nat 20.

I don't think he could automatically make the DC: 15 check whilst distracted.


Isn't that where the world's best gymnasts come from?

Russia technically, but yes, romania and hungary are also good. So maybe not average by words standards, but here.

Boci
2009-11-09, 03:48 AM
I wonder what your idea of 18 dexterity would be.

Pretty f***ing amazing, given that commoners mostly use an standard array and thus you rarely enounter someone with a +2 modifier.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 03:58 AM
I duno. I think everyone has a prettty good idea what feats they take.

I'm not sure we have so much control over it, though. Say you really, really love a sport, and do it a lot, and end up with skill focus in it? Sure, you took a few ranks in Push: papers, but that's a means to an end.

Personally, I'm worried I ended up with skill focus: nerdom.


Pretty f***ing amazing, given that commoners mostly use an standard array and thus you rarely enounter someone with a +2 modifier.

~0.5% of the population, on 3d6, has an 18 in something. That's over 25 million people with an 18 in at least one stat (if I did my math right).

There's also observer bias- videos of people doing crazy things naturally will be skewed towards people with exceptional athletic ability. World class sports teams are composed of world class athletes. Just about everyone on a top rated sports team will likely have an 18 in str, con, and/or dex, as well as one or two feats dedicated to a skill related to that sport.

Boci
2009-11-09, 04:18 AM
~0.5% of the population, on 3d6, has an 18 in something. That's over 25 million people with an 18 in at least one stat (if I did my math right).

Thats assuming we all rule 3d6 for each state. Based on the phyical and mental achievements of me and the people I've met, I'd say that is not true.

Myrmex
2009-11-09, 04:22 AM
Thats assuming we all rule 3d6 for each state. Based on the phyical and mental achievements of me and the people I've met, I'd say that is not true.

Would you mind elaborating?
Also note that people tend to hang out with others of similar achievements, so there may be some observer bias.

I think I agree, though, in that 3d6 doesn't offer enough granularity.

Boci
2009-11-09, 07:00 AM
Would you mind elaborating?
Also note that people tend to hang out with others of similar achievements, so there may be some observer bias.

I think I agree, though, in that 3d6 doesn't offer enough granularity.

Just that I do not think 1 in every 200 people have an 18 in some state.

Milskidasith
2009-11-09, 08:05 AM
Just that I do not think 1 in every 200 people have an 18 in some state.

Considering D&D skews towards the "low" end of practical ability (It's impossible for anybody who doesn't have high intelligence and burns all their skill points on knowledge to actually ever get a single question right on a test) having an 18 seems fair enough.

By D&D rules as well, it's quite possible to have over 18 strength with only a minimal amount of working out.

Using the (bad) skill point and (bad) feat system of D&D (in terms of modelling real people) and then ignoring the method of character generation because "it doesn't feel right" is being selective.

Nai_Calus
2009-11-09, 10:04 AM
Wall jumping, as seen in the videos, is a DC 50 Epic Tumble check.

He's got a lot more than 14 Dex and 6-8 ranks. :smallconfused::smallannoyed:

KIDS
2009-11-09, 10:45 AM
I don't want to get into the discussion of what his exact +Tumble is, but holy ****, all of those videos were amazing.

Deth Muncher
2009-11-09, 10:53 AM
You have seen nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MeiwLLZjDo&feature=player_profilepage)

I do wonder if this is the appropriate forum, though.

That man took 20 levels of monk and 20 levels of rogue and condensed them into 10 levels. His other 10 levels are in Badass.

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 12:48 PM
Wow, and here I thought I was going to need to introduce the topic of what kind of skill checks these things should be. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids. So anyways, tumble checks have always kind of made me look at them funny. I personally know that things like back handsprings can be done without all that much training as I've pulled them off "back in the day" with minimal training. Certain maneuvers are more the psychological factor of throwing your head backwards. So things like back handsprings, to me, should be an easy tumble check. But what about that first video with the practical free falling down the dune doing back handsprings to stay in the air?

Ormagoden
2009-11-09, 01:00 PM
This man is basically falling down the sand dune as most of the time he's in the air. Absolutely incredible video (http://video.yahoo.com/network/100063489?v=6250057&l=100063517)

so i watch your video...below it was a link to the follwing...why for you miss this? EPIC CLIMB

http://video.yahoo.com/network/100063489?v=6250057&l=100063517

Ormagoden
2009-11-09, 01:08 PM
I'm genuinly interested as to what people think his tumble mod would be. I'd place it around +6-8.

over 9000!

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 01:13 PM
so i watch your video...below it was a link to the follwing...why for you miss this? EPIC CLIMB

http://video.yahoo.com/network/100063489?v=6250057&l=100063517

Holy cow, the monkey king's back flip maneuver was out of this world. I've seen people at a local gym do some of the other stuff, like the foot hooks and going up the corner real fast. The foot hooks just require a lot of leg strength, while the corner climb is actually really easy to do. But the back flip thing? He inverted his body and was able to finesse his entire body to place his feet where his hand hold is, the haul himself into a standing position. That right there I would say is an epic skill check, like 30 climb check at least. It may be a 20-25 check according to the PH, but the actual maneuver he did was at least a 30, maybe more like a 35.

The back handsprings down the dune, I'd put that at about a 35-40

Seatbelt
2009-11-09, 02:10 PM
Is there a real world example of someone doing something like Altair from Assassin's Creed?

Harperfan7
2009-11-09, 03:43 PM
Let's make this easy.

1. What is the highest tumble modifier anybody in the world has?

2. Has anyone ever seen anybody better than this?

Random832
2009-11-09, 04:15 PM
What exactly is "epic" for a skill?

Pre-epic, you can:

Have 25 actual ability score (18+2 racial+5 level increases)
Have a +5 inherent bonus to the ability score (Tome/Wish)
Have a +6 enhancement bonus to the ability score (Item, per Epic rules)
Have an enhancement bonus of +30 to the skill (Item, per Epic rules)
Have a competence bonus of +20 to the skill (highest bonus from SRD Wondrous Items)
Skill focus for +3
Have 23 actual ranks in a skill

That's +13 ability bonus, plus 23 ranks, +30 +20, +3, roll a natural 20 for DC109.

Depending on the skill, you can probably squeeze another handful out of synergy bonuses and feats with +2 untyped bonuses.

Epic Skills in the SRD (well, ESRD. Whatever you call the ELH open content on d20srd) seem to start at 40 for flat DCs, 20 for modifiers.

Thatguyoverther
2009-11-09, 04:32 PM
Meh. It's not epic until they do it in armor while swinging a sword.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-09, 04:48 PM
EPIC CLIMB
I beg to differ. If you want actual epic climb, you need to look at someone who doesn't do 95% of their work on soft sand, padded mats, mowed lawns, and so on. How about John Gill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_%28climber%29)?

http://trainingforclimbing.com/photo_gallery/John_Gill2005/JohnGill2005d.jpg

Mooch
2009-11-09, 05:00 PM
I'll see you one John Gill and raise you a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Osman

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4912818112519299518&ei=IpL4SpySE5OerALVhcnVCA&q=dan+osman&view=2#

an easy climb being only 5.7(I think) but in 400ft in 4min 25sec is crazy

Curmudgeon
2009-11-09, 06:21 PM
I'll see you one John Gill and raise you a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Osman

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4912818112519299518&ei=IpL4SpySE5OerALVhcnVCA&q=dan+osman&view=2#

an easy climb being only 5.7(I think) but in 400ft in 4min 25sec is crazy
Crazy is right. Osman killed himself doing these types of things. John Gill was making tougher (but obviously slower) climbs before Dan Osman was born, and is still climbing now.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 06:23 PM
The highest tumble modifier I'd guess is something like +18 (+7 level, +4 ability, +3 skill focus, +2 acrobatic, +2 synergy), maybe into the mid-20s with the right specializations (which the "highest" tumble modifier would have).

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:23 PM
all those are unbelievably amazing... but none of those are TUMBLES.

Tumbling is moving through a threatened square without drawing an attack of opportunity. Since in combat most attacks are parried or dodges automatically and the attack roles are only for those that have a chance of hitting, this basically mean that you move through an area in such a way that a nearby person has no chance of hitting you.

I would say it is basically a special dodge.

Doing a backflip or some such is not gonna prevent someone from hitting you. It probably even makes you an easier target to hit.

ericgrau
2009-11-09, 07:43 PM
Technically what's in the video is tumbling. Dunno if it's the kind that's useful, but it is tumbling.


Wall jumping, as seen in the videos, is a DC 50 Epic Tumble check.

He's got a lot more than 14 Dex and 6-8 ranks. :smallconfused::smallannoyed:

I'd have to see him go up 20 feet first. He faked it by pushing off the wall 2 feet off the ground then using 2 climb checks.

As for what DCs he's making, all we know is that it's a minimum of 15. Can't know how many people he can tumble past or through by the video. We do know that he can't make a DC 60 check since he wouldn't jump down 40 feet without padding. Probably couldn't do 45 or 30 either (30 and 20 foot falls) or he'd show it.

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 07:49 PM
all those are unbelievably amazing... but none of those are TUMBLES.

Tumbling is moving through a threatened square without drawing an attack of opportunity. Since in combat most attacks are parried or dodges automatically and the attack roles are only for those that have a chance of hitting, this basically mean that you move through an area in such a way that a nearby person has no chance of hitting you.

I would say it is basically a special dodge.

Doing a backflip or some such is not gonna prevent someone from hitting you. It probably even makes you an easier target to hit.

I'm really not certain what you're talking about. While it's true that tumble can be used in combat to negate AoOs, that's most certainly not the only kind of tumble. You can use tumble to decrease the effective fall distance when determining damage, and you can use tumble for general acrobatic feats. Otherwise what would you call someone who literally tumbles, as in uses gymnastic tumbling, to amuse a crowd? A perform tumble check or profession tumble check? While both of those would work, I see no reason that "tumble" can't be used in all occasions.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:50 PM
frankly we can ignore the DC checks... pushing your entire human self through 1x1 inch hole is a DC80 escape artist check or something like that...
going through a SOLID wall of force is a DC120.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:51 PM
I'm really not certain what you're talking about. While it's true that tumble can be used in combat to negate AoOs, that's most certainly not the only kind of tumble. You can use tumble to decrease the effective fall distance when determining damage, and you can use tumble for general acrobatic feats. Otherwise what would you call someone who literally tumbles, as in uses gymnastic tumbling, to amuse a crowd? A perform tumble check or profession tumble check? While both of those would work, I see no reason that "tumble" can't be used in all occasions.

just because the english word tumble is what they are doing, doesn't mean that the DnD term tumble is what they are doing. DnD authors have a problem with dictionaries...

Mando Knight
2009-11-09, 08:00 PM
You have seen nothing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MeiwLLZjDo&feature=player_profilepage)

I do wonder if this is the appropriate forum, though.

Now show me someone (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Samus_Aran) doing that in full body armor (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Suit), while fighting off dragons (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Ridley), flying energy-vampire jellyfish (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_%28species%29), and gigantic brains (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Mother_Brain). That would be closer to Epic Tumble. :smallwink:

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 08:14 PM
just because the english word tumble is what they are doing, doesn't mean that the DnD term tumble is what they are doing. DnD authors have a problem with dictionaries...

As a quote out of the PH "You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the perform skill)."

Delandel
2009-11-09, 08:29 PM
World class? Some of the videos posted here (not the first) are hardly better than the average street breakdancing. Amazing, but not that rare.

When you're talking about flips and this type of acrobatics, it falls under the label of "tricking," not breakdancing. Breakdancing is entirely different.

The first video is cool, but many people can do backhandsprings, just go to a acrobatic's class and you'll see dozens of 6 year old girls doing it. Those damned 30 pound midgets liked to rub it in my face when I was learning the basics.

Damien Walters, on the other hand, is pretty up there. You need alot of training and alot of strength to do those kind of tricks. What he does is definitely tumbling by D&D according to the SRD here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm)

To answer your question about his Tumble rank: If you watch the video, he "tumbles" (in the air) through a gap in the fence barely wider than himself. I'd say that's equivalent to tumbling through an area occupied by an enemy without provoking an AoO, which is DC 25. So if he can take 10 to accomplish that, his tumble check should at least be 15. That's not even taking into consideration other ridiculous stuff he's doing.

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 11:12 PM
The first video is cool, but many people can do backhandsprings, just go to a acrobatic's class and you'll see dozens of 6 year old girls doing it. Those damned 30 pound midgets liked to rub it in my face when I was learning the basics.

I really liked the rest of what you said, but I have to disagree with this comment. A back handspring is definitely pretty easy. But a back hand spring down a very steep sandy slope? That's definitely more than just a wee bit difficult. The added DC from steep terrain is only a +2 I think, but the distance traveled along the dune face is pretty severe. So we're talking about someone moving way over a single move action worth of distance with nothing but a tumble check down a steep slope composed of unstable terrain. Granted the fact that he's half falling to speed up his travel I'm sure can be homebrewed to alter the check, though I don't know how I would handle that.

Worira
2009-11-10, 01:36 AM
2nd level + 14 dex. He may have skill focus if this is actually his trade, but I do not know for sure if it is.

Yes, it's his trade. And seriously, 14 dex? I'm honestly curious what you consider an 18 in a physical stat to be, if not an
Olympic-level, or very near, athlete.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-10, 02:47 AM
Is there a real world example of someone doing something like Altair from Assassin's Creed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20QBe43tyVM

charl
2009-11-10, 03:07 AM
Given that Altair's acrobatics are essentially parkour and freerunning yes, there are people who can do stuff comparable to that. Of course it doesn't look as dramatic or cool as the game, since it's real life, but other than that... (Disclaimer: It still looks very cool).

ghashxx
2009-11-10, 02:50 PM
@ sparkmandriller - That was bloody hilarious! I had to forward that to my brother and he just cracked up.

Now anyhoo, what Altair does, for the most part, isn't too bad of a climb/jump/tumble check. He's always climbing buildings (either 20 or 25 climb check) with easy handholds, not jumping ridiculous distances, and using tumble to decrease falling damage. Now what does get complicated is when he's jumping off a wall backwards to grab a ledge behind him. That's pretty nuts and I might say would fall under the "An overhang or ceiling with no foot holds" thereby a 25 DC but with an added jump check too. This is where putting DCs to Altair's stuff gets complicated as I don't know how to combine checks. Like when he jumps a good 20' down and 10' out from a building landing on a 4 inch wide wooden bar and just starts walking across it. Jump check to hit a wicked narrow object, and then balance check with consideration for the fact that you're not gingerly and carefully stepping onto the object but rather actually jumping onto it? I dunno how to figure those things "officially" or if there even is an official way to do it. I would just BS the whole DC and see how it works out.