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BooNL
2009-11-09, 01:02 PM
So, I'm working completely out of my comfort zone here and am trying to make a Totemist. I have never used Incarnum before, but I think I have the basics down. I do have some questions for you guys though.

If I were to take a race with natural attacks (say, web enchanced kobold), and I were to bind a soulmeld that were to change my hands into claws, do the claw attacks stack? Claws of the Wyrm specifically mentions no, but others don't.

Likewise, Dragon Tail mentions its attack as being a standard actions. Does that mean I cannot combine it with natural weapons?

This character will be build for the Gestalt Neverending Dungeon on this boards, and from what I've read so far, it's going to be a pretty brutal game. I was thinking of a Ranger with the trapfinding ACF (dungeonscape) on the other side of the Gestalt. Full BAB+skills+trapfinding, good choice or should I go for something else? Don't want spellcasting on this build.
Also, is there any way I could exploit TWF from combat style in a natural attack build?

What soulmelds are good at lvl one (for my purpose that is). The ones I'm thinking about are:
Blink Vest (10ft dimension door as move action, +10ft/essentia)
Dread Carapace (-1 attack bonus, +2 damage with bite, +1 other natural attacks. -1/+2/+1/essentia. Sort of like power attack)
Kruthik Claws (+4 comp to hide and move silent, +2/essentia)
Dragon Tail (tail attack as standard action)

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

Person_Man
2009-11-09, 01:30 PM
Natural Weapons do not stack unless the power/ability/etc granting them specifically states otherwise. They overlap, and you use the higher of the two values. So if your Totemist already has claws from a racial ability, bind something else.

The mechanics of using natural weapons is pretty complicated. Basically, if you have a secondary natural attack, you can use it as part of a full attack at -5, IN ADDITION TO your primary attack routine. You can reduce it to -2 if you can qualify for and take the Multiattack feat, or -0 if you can then take the Improved Multiattack feat (Draconomicon, Savage Species).

However, the controlling factor over whether or not you can use a natural attack as a secondary attack in addition to your normal attack routine is the wording of its source, and not any consistant or logical rule. A Lizardfolk has 2 claws and a bite. A Werebear has 2 claws and a bite. But a Lizardfolk using a sword only gets a secondary bite attack when it uses a weapon, whereas the Werebear gets the bite, a claw, and the weapon. I know that it makes no sense. That's just the way its written.

So, if a soulmeld doesn't say it can be used as a secondary natural attack, then it can't be. A reasonable DM will hand wave it away. But that's not the RAW.

Also, if Fax or Sinfire show up, listen to them instead of me. They know a lot more about Incarnum then I do.

BooNL
2009-11-09, 01:40 PM
Thanks Person Man, so it would actually be unwise to use a race with natural attacks for a Totemist? You're basically wasting a racial bonus because the class can accompish the same, only much better. Right?

Unless ofcourse the race grants you a natural attack that's harder to replicate. Like Scarn which grant spikes. Those spikes have a strange wording by the way. They are natural weapons, yet you use them like regular weapons? I take it any feats/soulmelds/whatever that enhance natural weapons also enchance their spikes?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 01:47 PM
Thanks Person Man, so it would actually be unwise to use a race with natural attacks for a Totemist? You're basically wasting a racial bonus because the class can accompish the same, only much better. Right?Not at all. Just use different soulmelds that give you other abilities, or augment what you already have. Getting tons of augmented natural attacks is what the totemist does, and having some to work with already just makes it easier for you to get even more.


Unless ofcourse the race grants you a natural attack that's harder to replicate. Like Scarn which grant spikes. Those spikes have a strange wording by the way. They are natural weapons, yet you use them like regular weapons? I take it any feats/soulmelds/whatever that enhance natural weapons also enchance their spikes?Either way.

Glimbur
2009-11-09, 01:48 PM
Check out the Wormtail Belt. It's not impressive, but extra AC from Natural Armor is nice.

You are also proficient in simple weapons, so you could carry a longspear just in case.

Two Weapon Fighting and Natural Attacks don't directly interact; you can't make extra attacks with claws via TWF. The penalties from TWF will apply to all your to-hit rolls, including a natural bite attack, for example... I think. Take that with a grain of salt.

Tavar
2009-11-09, 01:49 PM
Yeah, the spikes are pretty good. Here's The Incarnum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0) by Sinfire Titan.

Some info germaine to your build in particular: Use the wildshape ranger variant. Combat styles don't really give you anything.

Oh, and also, good luck. I'm thinking of running a Totemist//Shapeshift druid myself.

BooNL
2009-11-09, 02:06 PM
Thanks for the elaboration guys. I've never really used natural attacks much, so I don't know what to expect.

I've checked Sinfire Titan's guide. It's handy and combined with some threads I found on these forums I've managed to figure out how Incarnum works. The handbook doesn't have a lot of builds though, neither does it explain natural attacks very well. So it's hard for me to see how they progress as they level up.

But hey, that's why I'm gonna play one. To see how they progress!

Tavar. I noticed you were doing a Totemist//Druid, even responded to your thread earlier today and advicing you take Wildshape Ranger. :smallbiggrin:
I'll see if I'll do it, never liked Wildshape much. So I'll see if I can swap combat style out with something else first.
If that fails, I might take the ranged path, just to have some options.

Any thoughts on the soulmelds I mentioned above? Are they solid for a 1st level Totemist stuck in a deadly dungeon all by himself?

zagan
2009-11-09, 02:49 PM
Blink Vest (10ft dimension door as move action, +10ft/essentia)
Dread Carapace (-1 attack bonus, +2 damage with bite, +1 other natural attacks. -1/+2/+1/essentia. Sort of like power attack)
Kruthik Claws (+4 comp to hide and move silent, +2/essentia)
Dragon Tail (tail attack as standard action)

For that I can perhaps help:
-The Blink shirt is excellent you can bypass obstacle or escape grapple.
-The Dread carapce doesn't seem like a good idea to me particulary since at low level your to hit isn't really high.
-Kruthik claw are exellent particulary the bonus acid damage but the claw replace your normal one.
-Dragon tail is nice and you don't need to bind it but it's the only attack in the round.

Other good choice:
Threefold mask of the chimera, three attack and you can't be flanked.

Hope that help.

BooNL
2009-11-09, 02:55 PM
Cool thanks. But you don't have to pick your soulmelds up front right?
At the start of every day, I can just rebind any meld I like, from the entire list, I I'm not mistaken.

I've decided on a Skarn Wildshape Ranger//Totemist. Let's see how I fare in that dungeon!

Glimbur
2009-11-09, 03:02 PM
Cool thanks. But you don't have to pick your soulmelds up front right?
At the start of every day, I can just rebind any meld I like, from the entire list, I I'm not mistaken.

Mostly true. You can shape any soulmeld from your class list. You can't bind most of them at low levels though. In fact, at first level you can't bind anything. I'm not sure why the class was designed this way, but you'll either use the Dragon Tail and others that give attacks without binds, use simple weapons, or use natural attacks from your race.

Person_Man
2009-11-10, 09:37 AM
Cool thanks. But you don't have to pick your soulmelds up front right?
At the start of every day, I can just rebind any meld I like, from the entire list, I I'm not mistaken.

I've decided on a Skarn Wildshape Ranger//Totemist. Let's see how I fare in that dungeon!

Um, you might want to reread the Wildshape/Alternate Form rules. IIRC, when you Wildshape, you lose any natural weapons from your race. So Skarn is a bad idea. Consider Duskling (+2 Con, bonus essentia), Mongrelfolk (+4 Con), Warforged (+2 Con, immunities), or Water Orc (+4 Str, +2 Con, Swim speed, qualifies for Headlong Rush).

Also, this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) might and this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) be helpful to you. Honestly, it shouldn't be that hard for you to put together 10ish attacks and Pounce. Just be wary of overdoing it.

Tavar
2009-11-10, 10:41 AM
Skarn is still good for the first 5 levels(this is a level 1 game), especially at first, since without binds you can't get Natural attacks from the totemist.

Person_Man
2009-11-10, 11:20 AM
Skarn is still good for the first 5 levels(this is a level 1 game), especially at first, since without binds you can't get Natural attacks from the totemist.

I'll concede that point. But at level 5 or above, it's a waste. And if you're only playing at level 4 or lower, then you're better off witch something stronger then Ranger (Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Fighter, Knight, etc). Also, there are a few ways to get extra attacks at level 1:

* Claws of the Wyrm: Gain 2 claw attacks. Noteworthy in that it doesn’t need to be bound to a chakra slot in order to gain the extra attack attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. Dragon Magic.
* Dragon Tail: Gain a tail attack. Noteworthy in that it doesn’t need to be bound to a chakra slot in order to gain the extra attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the tail. Dragon Magic.
* Mantle of Flame: Anyone striking you (except for enemies using a manufactured reach weapon standing more then 5 ft away) take 1d6 Fire damage plus an additional +1d6 for each point of essentia invested in it. This soulmeld is noteworthy in that it doesn't need to be bound to a chakra slot in order to be useful in combat, and that it stacks with the Heart of Fire soulmeld, although they interact oddly (Heart of Fire won't effect everyone that Mantle of Flame effects, and vice verses). Magic of Incarnum pg 78.

rooster
2009-11-10, 01:16 PM
I've decided on a Skarn Wildshape Ranger//Totemist. Let's see how I fare in that dungeon!
I'm curious. Why not Druid?

With a natural weapons-user, ba and combat style don't really matter. With a totemist, track is redundant and trapfinding is only a feat away. The skills aren't bad, but it seems like a pretty heavy investment (especially considering how easy skill boosting is for Incarnum users). The speed boost can be emulated with longstrider until you have soulmelds to spare for speed-boosters.

Druid, on the other hand, covers for the totemist's crippled will save, adds spellcasting (!), real wild shape and an animal companion that might not be killed by a strong breeze (share soulmeld looks like all sorts of fun).

Either way, have a good time!

BooNL
2009-11-10, 01:20 PM
Person Man, thanks for the heads up and the suggestion. But as Tavar mentioned, I'd be happy to reach lvl 2, let alone 5.
If I ever come to that, I'll treat my spines as a regular wildshape ranger would treat his longsword: useful in non shaped situations.

Rooster: good suggestion, though I specifically didn't want a druid for this build. Basically I was looking for full BAB and trapfinding. As this is my first time playing a totemist, I don't really need anything else. So all the extra's from the ranger side are just bonus.