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golem1972
2009-11-09, 09:37 PM
My wife has decided to try her hand at DnD. She's not interested in playing a melee character and a full caster seems to be a little to complicated for her first try. She's thinking something like the witches from "Charmed" would be do-able. So, I started thinking about helping her build a Warlock, but possibly something with a little more options.

Level: 8
Setting: DnD 3.5 ~ Vanilla setting
Books: Pretty much any WotC 3.5 Book except Dragon Compendium.
Stats: 32 Point Buy
Race: Undecided (probably human or something elfy)

Hellfire Warlock?
Binder 1 / Warlock 4 / Anima Mage 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Anima Mage +5

I know it's a bit complicated, but straight warlock seemed a little bland to play. We have already ruled that Warlock casting counts for the Arcane requirement for Anima Mage.

At 8th level she'll Be the equivalent of a Warlock 7 and Binder 6. Invocations will probably be See the Unseen, Baleful Utterance, Spiderwalk (to be traded out for ? when she picks up Humanoid Shapes), and Brimstone BLast.
At 20th she'll be a Warlock 18 and Binder 12 with a +10d6 hellfire bonus so no serious drops in power level for her.

Feats: (1) Practiced Binder, (Human) Undecided (possibly PBS or Wild Cohort), (3) Obtain Familiar (she's gonna want a pet), (6) Improved Familiar, (9) Maximize Sp Ability, (12 +) Quicken (Sp), ... not sure after that.

We may try to fit in Ancestral Relic for a "Spellbook" full of scrolls to UMD.

So, to complicated for a newb? Would something else be a better fit flavor wise without overwhelming her (I did look into beguiler, but her eyes glaze over when she starts looking at all the spells.)?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-09, 09:40 PM
Binders are a little difficult to play (or play well, I should say). Just something to keep in mind.

I personally would recommend a sorcerer with a fairly simple selection of spells, such as Magic Missile, See Invisibility, Haste, and etc.

I'd help you more, but I have never seen Charmed in my life, nor do I intend to.

Hashmir
2009-11-09, 09:51 PM
It also depends on how much she needs to know about how the character works, vs. how much she needs to know about why the character works.

That is, if she wants or needs to understand the basic mechanics behind the class, such as why the numbers what they are and so on, then you might want to consider a lower class level and no multiclassing -- things can get very complicated for newbies very quickly. On the other hand, if it's just a matter of how complicated the character is to play, then I dunno. I'm not familiar enough with the classes in question. It's just something to keep in mind.

nhbdy
2009-11-09, 09:55 PM
multiclassing is very hard for a new player to understand, keep it simple, warlock is simple enough, but she may feel limited due to the ever so few invocations, sorcerer is another option, that may make that problem dissipate, but you do not have many spells, wizard has a ton, but is difficult to play, cleric would offer a ton of options as well as provide a relatively easy to play introduction to casting characters.

In short, I recommend cleric

Yukitsu
2009-11-09, 09:55 PM
The best character is the one that sounds like the most fun, so long as you can go slow. Playing what you want draws you in, makes you want to learn more about how to do things. My first character was a mystic theurge focused on summoning, and while I sucked at some things I learned nearly everything I could ever need to know about playing the game.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-09, 10:00 PM
We can provide character guides as needed, depending on what she wants to play.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 10:17 PM
Charmed Witches are basically Wilder with rituals that do extra stuff (like Augury, potions to stop a demon from regenerating, etc).

1) Prue, Eldest Witch, had Telekinesis. She can Force Choke people. She learned Astral Projection (Acts just like D&D version). She is believed to create the Wu jen Body outside body spell once.
When evil: Blink and Finger of Death. But lost when became good.
Sadly, she died.

2) One Witch, Piper, can freeze time (and still interact with it). Also she can Time hop an enemy for example.
Later she loses the ability freezing temporarily (regained it much later) and can only disintegrate an enemy.
Sometimes use Energy Push (damage + push effect) instead of disintegrate. Whatever she blows up: none of the pieces can harm her from explosion.
When evil: Blink, Polymorph, and Flesh to Ice. Lost when turned good.

2) Another Witch, Pheobe, can See the future/past. And was a martial artist. Yeah...that was all she did at first. She could read the history of an object though.
She eventually learned Astral Projection. However, if damaged in Astral form she still takes some damage though less severe (unlike the D&D spell where origin body was unharmed).
She also learns levitation later. Then Empathy (later let her steal their powers temporarily). She could even Transfer damage she had to her enemy (Episode Morality Bites).
While Evil: she gained Pyrokinesis, Telekinesis, Blink spell, and polymorph. But this never stayed when became good again.


4) One fourth member, Paige, was a 1/2 Celestial: her Witch power was teleporting objects and telekinesis. She could even rebound magic spells like orbs of fire. She joined when Prue was dead.
Never turned evil.

They also have this Power Of Three: limit break power that required all three of them.

golem1972
2009-11-09, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. I'll probably just throw out a few ideas, and let her do her own work. I really wish I could start her out at level 1, but not enough time.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 10:47 PM
I think we need to be realistic here about a number of things:

1. being faithful to the source material would require a pretty good understanding of the system and how things work. D&D is not exactly newbie friendly in that respect

2. It also might not be the most fun to play, depending upon the game.

so, I say stick with a straight sorceror, help her pick a couple of bread n' butter spells so she has stuff to fall back on, but let her pick the rest from the spell list when she can think of something she wants to do with magic.

The mechanism in which you help her remember what she can and cannot do is important. I recommend you help her write up some of the spells on little flash cards, put them in categories for her so she can reference them quickly if she wants to see what a spell does. Since she's a sorcerer, she won't have to worry about what spells she's memorized and what not.

She'll still have to remember how many spells of each slot she still has. And keeping that straight can cause some slow down in the game.

My other advice regarding this is to give her poker chips for different spell levels and keep them in designated piles. (or use different color chips to keep them apart) When she runs out of chips, she runs out of spells too. And with that, it's a visual device that's much easier to keep track of.

Dexam
2009-11-09, 11:04 PM
I agree with all that elliott20 has said. Simpler is better for a first time player. Straight Sorcerer seems to be the best option: a small selection of spells that can be added to with wands and scrolls, and a "pet" (familiar), and all the relevant information is in a couple of books rather than a small library.

If she wants to fancy up her character a bit, maybe one of the Sorcerer Heritage feat groups? Yes, they're not that good from an optimisation perspective, but with a first time player you probably want more emphasis on fluff rather than crunch. Select a few always-useful spells for her, and then ask "what does your character want to do?" and find the spells that best fit her concepts. Re-fluff spell descriptions if necessary.

If Warlock appeals, another option is a Warlock/Sorcerer/Eldritch Theurge; or if she wants to play a "good witch" then maybe Warlock/Enightened Spirit. Once again, place more emphasis on "character" than "class".

mabriss lethe
2009-11-09, 11:18 PM
Warlocks and DFAs are very good for My-first-caster characters. They're relatively hard to kill and have a decent handful of tricks. If the invocations aren't enough....make sure she starts with a couple of lvl 1 wands/eternal wands.

Psion, also, isn't terribly difficult to learn. It has many of the same qualities as the sorcerer. You replace keeping a running tally of spell slots/level with a running tally of power points. it's up to you/her to decide which is the easiest.

sambo.
2009-11-09, 11:26 PM
i'd also suggest a straight up Sorcerer as a nice simple caster class to start with.

once you start getting into splatbooks, massive multiclassing and other wierdness it get's all way too complicated way too fast.

she likes Charmed and wants to play a character based on that kind of concept, go wild, reflect that in spell selections.

if you're worried about power-levels with the rest of the group, tweak the sorcerer class a little (auto rapid metamagic and perhaps a bonus feat every now and then oughta do the trick).

Keep. It. Simple. Stupid. she can get into multi-splatbook weirdness later. start simple, work up from there.

if you throw her in the deep end with "Binder 1 / Warlock 4 / Anima Mage 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Anima Mage +5" straight off the bat, i don't think much of you as either a DM or a husband. i would never throw a first time player into that kind of guff.

elliott20
2009-11-09, 11:34 PM
yeah, I'm not sure why people insist on giving her a character that has multi-classing as well. It's not as intuitive as we all think, guys. I get that some of these characters will be easier to play because of their relative strength, but we have to keep two things in mind when helping new players:

1. the players do not know all the strategies involving a caster the way we know it. They might not realize that blasting is the worst way to play, for example.

2. the survivability of the character is not just tied to the character itself, but also to what the GM throws at them. He could just pull a couple punches with her when she's made a tactical error

3. they might not even be playing an optimized game. And if they are, then I too would question the GM's wisdom in included a complete novice into the fold.

sambo.
2009-11-09, 11:43 PM
yeah, I'm not sure why people insist on giving her a character that has multi-classing as well. It's not as intuitive as we all think, guys. I get that some of these characters will be easier to play because of their relative strength, but we have to keep two things in mind when helping new players:

1. the players do not know all the strategies involving a caster the way we know it. They might not realize that blasting is the worst way to play, for example.

2. the survivability of the character is not just tied to the character itself, but also to what the GM throws at them. He could just pull a couple punches with her when she's made a tactical error

all of this i agree with....


3. they might not even be playing an optimized game. And if they are, then I too would question the GM's wisdom in included a complete novice into the fold.
this i don't really agree with.
a novice in an experienced group will learn a lot more, a lot faster than a group of novices all together.

one of the first campaigns i played in (wheeee, back in the 1ed days) i was the youngest and newest player in a group of much older and more experienced players.

i learnt and i learnt fast.

elliott20
2009-11-10, 12:02 AM
this i don't really agree with.
a novice in an experienced group will learn a lot more, a lot faster than a group of novices all together.

one of the first campaigns i played in (wheeee, back in the 1ed days) i was the youngest and newest player in a group of much older and more experienced players.

i learnt and i learnt fast.

Well, all of us learn things differently, and sometimes the whole "swim or drown" way of learning really does work very well. But not all of us can learn things this way. Sometimes, in a swim or drown situation, people drown.

It's about how the lessons are parceled out.

If your group say, actively helps you throughout the game by giving you tips on how and why certain options are better than others, and actively encourage you to develop individual skill sets, you're more likely to stick with it.

but if we just throw them into the deep end of an optimization game, and just overwhelm them with material, tips and all sorts of stuff, we COULD end up just making them not want to play.

Of course, that could be a whole thread onto itself.

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 12:05 AM
Fighter.

Simple. Fast. Apparently hardy. Customizable.

It's a good class with which to learn the basics of D&D, and I feel its major shortcomings as a newbie would notice can be easily mitigated by most DMs who are experienced and not concerned too much with following the thin and skinny of the rules.

I am NOT saying the class is good. it's not. But it's easier to start with than a spellcaster, which can be important.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 12:13 AM
but if we just throw them into the deep end of an optimization game, and just overwhelm them with material, tips and all sorts of stuff, we COULD end up just making them not want to play.
i think this is actually reasonably likely.

if you overload someone with material straight off the bat i think you are reducing their initial enjoyment of the game. keep it simple to start with, with only a few spells and powers to keep track of, a noob can enjoy themselves from the beginning without worrying too much aboutv the mechanics.

she's apparantly starting at level 8. that gives plenty of time to learn a bit about the game and to possibly branch into Archmage &/or some other PrC if she chooses.

seriously, there is just so much material to be incorporated into a DnD game it's going to overwhelm any noob.

once you have a noob hooked, then you can load 'em up with necrotic cysts, dragonborn and all the other ballyhoo.


Of course, that could be a whole thread onto itself.

there's a whole forum out there, go post in it :smallcool:

elliott20
2009-11-10, 01:20 AM
I actually do have accounts on places like that, I just don't post because compared to the regulars there, I feel like pre-schooler trying to hang with the college grads.

rooster
2009-11-10, 02:01 AM
+1 to straight Sorcerer.

I've played 3.5 for 7 years, but I would never play that **** you listed in the OP. Asking a new player to familiarize herself with the rules, then learn 3 new sets of alternative mechanics (including spirit binding, which is one of the most demanding systems as far as figuring out what exactly the character can do) then juggle 5+ books while playing? That's not exactly the best sell for D&D that I can imagine...

Use a Sorcerer. Give her the PHB. It's simple, easy and effective. Don't start past level 6. If you want to make her character more "witchy," see the DMG p.175 for the Witch spell list. I don't know how it compares to Charmed's witches, but it's very close to the way I'd build one.

Leon
2009-11-10, 02:43 AM
Casters such as the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler and Warmages are good starting points aswell

Thajocoth
2009-11-10, 02:58 AM
I'm gonna recommend Sorcerer. They don't have to prepare their spells, so their casting is simplified enough for a new player. Also, being charismatic, having her power key off that charisma, being able to choose what to cast when she casts it, and specializing in a specific set of powers sounds like it fits better with the Charmed witches than another core class. I'm not really familiar with anything outside core SRD stuff, so I can't comment on a lot of the other suggestions...

sambo.
2009-11-10, 03:05 AM
I'm not really familiar with anything outside core SRD stuff, so I can't comment on a lot of the other suggestions...

sambo.s short description of splatbooks: with added power comes added complexity.

PinkysBrain
2009-11-10, 03:50 AM
How about a wilder with a psicrystal? (Put a skin of morpheus on him and he can walk around in any form she wants ... you can also afford to be a lot less careful with psicrystals in combat than familiars.)

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 03:53 AM
Oh, crap, I missed the first post's bit about being a caster entirely.

I'd actually suggest Sorcerer over Wilder or Psion, however - psionics can nova easier, which can be a huge trap for someone new to P&P RPGing entirely. Warlock might also work, but Warlock - while simple to play when individually explained - is a different casting system that is clumsily overlaid with the normal casting system and its nine levels of spells, which can be intimidating.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 08:54 AM
A sorcerer isn't always a good choice for a new player. If a sorcerer makes bad spell decisions then they have to live with them for a long time, so make sure you vet her choices as much as you can without being pushy.

I'm going to actually recommend a DRUID for her first caster. They have plenty of spells but can take some hits. They get a tank as a class feature. They get plenty of healing, buffing, controlling, summoning and even blasting spells. They get new spells for almost every splat book you allow. And when built right, they blast even better than a sorcerer. And when she runs out of spells, she can turn into a bear and wade right in. That will expose her to all kinds of D&D playstyles so she can pick what she likes best.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-10, 09:13 AM
A sorcerer isn't always a good choice for a new player. If a sorcerer makes bad spell decisions then they have to live with them for a long time, so make sure you vet her choices as much as you can without being pushy.

There are at least two decent sorcerer guides out there, iirc. Offhand, such spells as Magic Missile, Grease, Glitterdust, See Invisibility, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Dispel Magic, Fly...

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 09:25 AM
There are at least two decent sorcerer guides out there, iirc.

Even those guides advise that spell selection must be done with both the long-term and short-term in mind; that sorcerers should take spells that will be useful later but might be less useful immediately. That's not always easy for a new player to deal with.

But a druid can't really go wrong. They know every spell on their list, so she can try whatever she likes to get a feel for the game without worry. Even better, she can try to mix melee with her casting even if she dumps strength thanks to wildshape. I stand behind it as the best choice for a new player.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-10, 09:27 AM
Even those guides advise that spell selection must be done with both the long-term and short-term in mind; that sorcerers should take spells that will be useful later but might be less useful immediately. That's not always easy for a new player to deal with.

I've seen spell recommendations for spells that are useful in both the short and the long term, which helps newbies a lot.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 09:28 AM
sheesh, we're talking about a first ever character for a first time player who has a vague notion she wants to play a character themed along the lines of one of the girls form Charmed.

this situation calls for minimal character optimisation and maximum, eZ to access fun-factor, not pure munchkin'ism.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-10, 09:29 AM
Excellent point. Druids are nothing like witches from Charmed... or so I hear.

I've never watched the show myself.

NEVER!



this situation calls for minimal character optimisation and maximum, eZ to access fun-factor, not pure munchkin'ism.
That being said, it is helpful if the character is not useless or death prone. Such things, I am told, make it harder to have fun.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 09:37 AM
now, i'll grant you that a Druid is a pretty good character class for a new player. how close druids are to the ladies from charmed, i have no idea. at a guess, i rekon you could shoehorn a druid into the mould without too much difficulty.

the lady in question has apparantly indicated she would like to play a caster type, not a melee type.

i would argue that the simplest caster type for a new player to get their head around is of the spontaneous variety. you have a limited number of spells you know and can toss them around pretty freely without wondering if you're more likely to need Spell X or Spell Y today.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 09:40 AM
Excellent point. Druids are nothing like witches from Charmed... or so I hear.

I've never watched the show myself.

NEVER!

Freeze stuff? Check. Blow it up? Check. Tell the future? Check. Heal people? Check. Make stuff float? Check.

Also,

http://api.ning.com/files/InCZD9LEcFjfgNE0HnpDTFqFxZZokfLLxsmcYDU5TGfKS74nSO B-zq3Bbjj8lN2ujqE7L5HPfiVBa3je4Ka0rC78bamFPalJ/DRUID.jpg

I really can't see why she'd be against the idea.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-10, 09:45 AM
I believe the Witch variant in the DMG, mentioned earlier, does such things as well. Just for the record.

Mr. Mud
2009-11-10, 09:47 AM
Seems a bit complicated to me. Remember, you trying to teach her basic D&D. I'd have her build a character (emphasis, her), while you guide her along a bit. Don't stop her from making mistakes. Let her play them, see how and why something should be different, then let her fix it.

I'd also start at lower levels, with a simpler class. Sorcerer 3 at the highest? I dunno, just preference for me.

Glass Mouse
2009-11-10, 11:34 AM
If you're gonna throw something like "Binder 1 / Warlock 4 / Anima Mage 4 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Anima Mage +5" at a new player, I sincerely hope you're a huge nerd with a knack for communication who's been telling her about D&D for years now, and she's been secretly taking notes the whole time.

Sorry, but personally, I'd run screaming from a build like that - and I have, while not being any kind of optimizer, been gaming for years now.

+1 for sorcerer.

Noodles2375
2009-11-10, 12:08 PM
One strategy for this that they mention in either the 3.0 PHB or DMG is sit down with them, give them a very brief description of the basic classes (frankly I'd stick to core and MAYBE XPH or Warlock also). Then ask her what sort of hero she wants to make, and help her pick the class that best fits with that idea.

I concur with the previous poster that making some sort of char op'd build for a first character ever is probably a bad decision. I've found that beginning players often enjoy: Barbarian, handful of skills and a few good combat abilities, Sorcerer, small spell selection that grows slowly over time, and Warlock for the same reason.

If you allow XPH the Soulknife is actually a really good pick also. It has something neat happening at almost every level, but the options aren't overwhelming. Some others have mentioned the psion and wilder already as solid choices.