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View Full Version : [3.5] How do mindless creatures react to illusions?



SpikeFightwicky
2009-11-10, 07:21 AM
Specifically, if there are 4 skeletons at one end of a narrow room shooting arrows at us, and I illusionate a brick wall 'sealing' them in (I forget which illusion spell it was, but it had only a visual effect, and was not mind-affecting), how will the skeletons react? They can still 'hear' us (I'm not sure how skeletons perceive their environment), but they can't see us. Will they try to tear down the wall to get to us (breaking the illusion), or will they 'de-activate', since they no longer have a way to reach us? Also, if we step through the wall illusion to ambush them, will they follow us out if we step out?

Nero24200
2009-11-10, 07:40 AM
It would really depend on their orders. Generally, if they're ordered to kill by the one who animated them, they'll likely try to rip the wall down. If they're ordered to "Guard", they probably will just leave them alone.

However, if "Guarding", they won't follow when you step through, so yes, that's an easy way to take down mindless foes.

Burley
2009-11-10, 10:23 AM
Well, keep in mind that they don't get a will save until they interact with the wall. If you are able to make the illusion appear to have arrows stick into it, they won't know it's fake or not until they try to touch it, which they probably won't do unless their master is right there to order them to.

Cyrion
2009-11-10, 10:24 AM
Most undead are immune to most illusions since they're mind affecting.

drengnikrafe
2009-11-10, 10:34 AM
I suspect the illusion(s) in question are not the mind affecting, but rather the ones that manifest themselves and are then perceived as if they were real based on the observations.

If I were DMing this game, I would agree with Nero to a point. The first time you do this, maybe the first 2 times, you've done something clever and new. After that, taking down the undead like that would be a "cheap shot", and I would not award experience for it (because you didn't learn anything new).

Gnaeus
2009-11-10, 11:05 AM
That is a perfectly appropriate use of silent image. You don't need to bother with things like arrows sticking out of the wall, because they are mindless. They don't know the difference between arrows passing through it or sticking into it. They can't reason.

Remember that the party is using expendable resources (a spell) to bypass an encounter, and should therefore get xp. Mindless things generally have a lower CR than their other stats would indicate, precisely because they can be short circuited by intelligent play. Intelligent undead animators/controllers, on the other hand, will be aware of this tactic, and respond appropriately (like putting skeletons on both sides of where the party is likely to come, or giving some of them standing orders to walk through suddenly appearing walls.)

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 11:05 AM
Most undead are immune to most illusions since they're mind affecting.

But not Figments (i.e. the Image line) because those are not mind-affecting. They don't act on the mind at all.

SpikeFightwicky
2009-11-10, 11:42 AM
It was Silent Image or Minor Image (can't remember which one I had prepared). We had a rather lengthy discussion OOC about how the skellies would react (though much of it was spent explaining how it wasn't mind affecting, so it could work).

In the end, the DM ruled that they'd just stay there and do nothing, so we did a couple of hit and runs through the wall to finish them off (they had bows and no melee weapons, so no AoOs). I'm not sure if the DM was 100% ok with his ruling (might have just ruled to move things along), so I was wondering what other people might think.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 11:45 AM
It really does depend on the orders they were given. I'd have the skeletons blindly shoot into the wall, probably not hitting anything but still feeling a bit dangerous from all the arrows flying about.

ericgrau
2009-11-10, 11:49 AM
They are mindless automotons that follow their last order, much like video game mobs :smallbiggrin:. Most likely the skeletons were told to attack any intruders. So once you leave they wouldn't care anymore, and the hit and run tactics should work.

crazedloon
2009-11-10, 12:07 PM
how does the body react when it fails a will save vs a image spell that looks like a wall. If you were to touch the wall would your hand stop or pass through it? If that was the case than would you not auto pass the will save as logic dictates the wall is not there? If that is the case waht happens when a creature does not/ can not use logic such as mindless undead? Would the skelis just stand swattting at air as they tried to rip the wall down?

ericgrau
2009-11-10, 12:20 PM
IMO you "left" so they don't care about you any more. Remember, skeletons draw no conclusions. You're "gone".

Grumman
2009-11-10, 12:20 PM
It really does depend on the orders they were given. I'd have the skeletons blindly shoot into the wall, probably not hitting anything but still feeling a bit dangerous from all the arrows flying about.
How do you justify this? Why would a mindless creature react to the existence of this particular brick wall by shooting it?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 12:22 PM
They were ordered to attack. The existence of a wall in the way wouldn't stop that once they started. They'd attack until (and after) they ran out of arrows. They just wouldn't aim worth balls, or shoot anything once arrows ran out.

And that's just how I felt like interpreting at the time. Without specific orders known, their reaction cannot be realistically determined.

Saph
2009-11-10, 12:22 PM
Mindless creatures still get a will save if they interact with the illusion, mindless or not; that's the rules. They're capable of pathfinding, so if they see direct evidence that the wall doesn't hinder progress (eg an adventurer stepping through) they'll probably chase him through the wall.

Remember, they're not utterly brainless; they have to have the equivalent of a fairly good computer AI to be able to walk, handle weapons, shoot accurately, navigate towards targets, etc.

lsfreak
2009-11-10, 12:34 PM
My reasoning:
The skeletons would stop firing. They may have Int--, but they have Wis10, so they know a 'solid' wall is useless to try and shoot through. They may try to tear it down, especially since you made it encompassing them entirely, depending on their orders, or they may stand there. If trying to tear it down, they don't go anywhere because they never realize the wall isn't there.

If you had instead, for example, put the wall between them and you rather than completely around then, at that point they would have no reason to try and tear it down. They may try and find a way around the wall by going a different route, but would have no reason to try and get through the wall.

@crazedloon
Your hand always passes through the wall. It's that without trying you get no save, when a situation warrants (such as seeing an arrow pass through the wall) you get a save, and when you yourself interact with it you auto-disbelieve it. It gets a bit more DM-call when you have illusory creatures because it gets a bit grey about what actions warrant a save and which ones don't.

Lysander
2009-11-10, 12:46 PM
If you're running from skeletons and you close a door, they'll try to break down the door to get to you even if they can't see you. So if a mindless creatures thinks you're behind a barrier they'll try to get through it.

The illusionary wall trick would only let you escape if you cast it when they aren't looking, for example right after you turn a corner while running away. Then they might keep running past.

crazedloon
2009-11-10, 12:49 PM
@crazedloon
Your hand always passes through the wall. It's that without trying you get no save, when a situation warrants (such as seeing an arrow pass through the wall) you get a save, and when you yourself interact with it you auto-disbelieve it. It gets a bit more DM-call when you have illusory creatures because it gets a bit grey about what actions warrant a save and which ones don't.

ok well lets get a little wierder what if you have Chains of Disbelief (Ex)

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.
and they fail their save as they touch the wall?

lsfreak
2009-11-10, 12:56 PM
Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion.

Self-explanatory. Your illusions are so real that no one 'wants' to disbelieve them.


Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

This means that the disbelief rules are like normal; interaction = auto-disbelieve. But when someone DOES realize the wall isn't there, the magic of the illusion is strong enough to still block line of sight, while normally disbelieving means that you only see the rough outline of the illusion and it doesn't bother your ability to see.

Clementx
2009-11-10, 01:04 PM
If you're running from skeletons and you close a door, they'll try to break down the door to get to you even if they can't see you. So if a mindless creatures thinks you're behind a barrier they'll try to get through it.
They try to open the door, then force it, because with Wis 10, they know how doors work, and they know they can be broken. They also know how walls work as well. They know they can't break through brick with claws, so they don't try.

If you allow skeletons to try to break down a "solid" wall to get at a target, then you must have them do so at all times. When a target goes around a corner, they skeleton must spend 3-4 weeks tunneling through diagonally. Mindless creatures can use pathfinding to take the most direct, passable route.

Jothki
2009-11-10, 01:08 PM
ok well lets get a little wierder what if you have Chains of Disbelief (Ex)

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.
and they fail their save as they touch the wall?

They'd probably think that the wall is blocking them, even if it isn't. Even if their body passes though it, they'll think that it had stopped at the edge of the obstacle. The illusion will overpower what their senses are actually telling them.

SpikeFightwicky
2009-11-10, 01:37 PM
I think the main 'hard to rule' issue was that they could still hear us, assuming skeletons hear as a human would (skelly sense aren't very well defined so we assumed they could perceive sound like a regular human). So we pondered how the mindless enemies would process a solid barrier while still being able to hear us.

Also, this was the layout:

*__*
*AA*
*AA*
*__ *
*__ *
*__ ******
*
*OO*****
*SS*
****

*s are walls, Os are the illusionary wall, Ss are skeletons, the underscores are there because I can't get the diagram to look right otherwise and As are adventurers (we, the PCs :smallsmile:). The hallway was a wider and the skelly room was bigger, so it's not to scale. We had to get around the corner, and the skeletons were in a small side room at the end of the hall shooting at us.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-10, 01:44 PM
They'd probably think that the wall is blocking them, even if it isn't. Even if their body passes though it, they'll think that it had stopped at the edge of the obstacle. The illusion will overpower what their senses are actually telling them.

I have to agree with this for all illusions that grant a save vs disbelief. If they interact with it.. including trying to pass through it and they fail there save they would think they would be stoped.

So if the skeletons where looking at the illusionary wall and where going to try to break it down that would be interacting with it and would get there save. if they failed the save they would continue to try to break down the wall and never succeed as they think its real.

Kantolin
2009-11-10, 02:32 PM
The (well, 'a') problem with mindless undead automatically attempting to break down illusion-walls comes when your party illusionist then summons an /actual/ wall of stone, and expects consistency. Especially involving 'meld with stone'.

Or when it's not a solid halt, but a pseudo-maze of illusionary walls. Skeletons can go around, you can go through - again permitting hit-and-run tactics.

Really, just have a necromancer there to direct them. Then he can straight-forward notify the undead to walk into the clearly an illusion.

Another_Poet
2009-11-10, 02:48 PM
Specifically, if there are 4 skeletons at one end of a narrow room shooting arrows at us, and I illusionate a brick wall 'sealing' them in (I forget which illusion spell it was, but it had only a visual effect, and was not mind-affecting), how will the skeletons react? They can still 'hear' us (I'm not sure how skeletons perceive their environment), but they can't see us. Will they try to tear down the wall to get to us (breaking the illusion), or will they 'de-activate', since they no longer have a way to reach us? Also, if we step through the wall illusion to ambush them, will they follow us out if we step out?

In the specific example you describe, the illusion spell is not mind-affecting so mindless creatures do not react any differently than creatures with minds.

The skeletons would act however they would act if a physically real solid barrier appeared blocking their progress.

ghashxx
2009-11-10, 03:06 PM
Okay, I'm getting conflicting messages on this board. Do unthinking undead get a save against illusions or not?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-10, 03:09 PM
If given a reason or incontrivertible proof of the illusion's illusory nature, they will receive a save or an auto-pass. And they have nice will saves. But, as mindless creatures, the criteria required to make something qualify as a reason in their semi-minds will be numerous.

My opinion.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 03:23 PM
"Skeletons cannot form conclusions" suggests they have no way to defeat a figment. They chase the PCs, who vanish behind a "wall" - to the skeletons, first their quarry is in sight, then it is not. They cannot speculate why, thus they get no will save. They hear sounds behind the wall, and fire arrows (assuming their instructions indicated they should do so); the arrows disappear through the wall - they cannot speculate why. They will fire until they can no longer hear the sounds, one way or another.

Kantolin
2009-11-10, 03:26 PM
They hear sounds behind the wall, and fire arrows (assuming their instructions indicated they should do so)

I agree with this post.

In addition, the above instructions would be a terrible idea, as then your skeletons would squander all of their arrows against the first creature that makes noise on the other side of a real wall. :P

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 03:28 PM
In addition, the above instructions would be a terrible idea, as then your skeletons would squander all of their arrows against the first creature that makes noise on the other side of a real wall. :P

One would imagine the necromancer who left such instructions also left many arrows. :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2009-11-10, 03:28 PM
Okay, I'm getting conflicting messages on this board. Do unthinking undead get a save against illusions or not?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, they should get a save as normal (although perhaps at penalties).

edit: They autofail intelligence checks, but not wisdom checks. Since illusions allow a will save, they react as any other creature would: I.E. seeing a wall appear in front of them would allow a save. If they failed the save, they stop since no intruders are "seen". If they make it, they ignore the wall and continue as normal.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 03:33 PM
If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, they should get a save as normal (although perhaps at penalties).

They get a save if they interact with them. Skeletons specifically cannot form conclusions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm), which means many common means of interacting with figments are gone - hence, no save.

Krrth
2009-11-10, 03:41 PM
They get a save if they interact with them. Skeletons specifically cannot form conclusions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm), which means many common means of interacting with figments are gone - hence, no save.

That would be correct if the save were based on intelligence, but it's not. The very act of the wall appearing in front of them triggers the save. If they had not seen the wall appear they might very well ignore it.

Same with arrows coming out of the wall: It's not normal, and by RAW skeletons have intuition.
Specifically, :Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

It's the sense that something isn't right that triggers the save.

Saph
2009-11-10, 03:42 PM
That said, it's quite possible for a necromancer to give a skeleton a set of instructions to counter the simpler illusion tricks. E.g. "If you see humanoids walking through a wall, treat it as nonsolid."

So you could still block them, but you'd have to think up something that would require actual intelligence to defeat.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 04:01 PM
It's the sense that something isn't right that triggers the save.

"Something isn't right" is a conclusion one forms from a wall appearing out of nowhere. Thus, they cannot make it. From the skeletons perspective: targets are there - targets are gone. No explanation why. They stare at the spot they disappeared (i.e. the illusion.)

Saph's method - explicitly telling them what to do in such cases - would.

Gnaeus
2009-11-10, 04:04 PM
That would be correct if the save were based on intelligence, but it's not. The very act of the wall appearing in front of them triggers the save. If they had not seen the wall appear they might very well ignore it.

Same with arrows coming out of the wall: It's not normal, and by RAW skeletons have intuition.
Specifically, :Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

It's the sense that something isn't right that triggers the save.

They have wisdom because they can perceive their environment. They don't have common sense, they are MINDLESS. They don't get a save unless they interact with it, which in this case means touch it. They won't do that unless their orders make them do it.

Coidzor
2009-11-10, 04:23 PM
mmm, I was briefly reminded of this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) so I decided to go and dig it up to see if it survived the board transition...

A zombie in the fields is either a figure of comedy or horror. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy&post_num=7#331892438)

Krrth
2009-11-10, 04:57 PM
They have wisdom because they can perceive their environment. They don't have common sense, they are MINDLESS. They don't get a save unless they interact with it, which in this case means touch it. They won't do that unless their orders make them do it.


By RAW, they DO have common sense. INT=/WIS. They can perceive their surroundings just as well as you or I can and as a result of that perception they are allowed a save. If you don't think watching arrows fly through a wall and hitting you counts as interaction, I don't know what does.

Think of it like this: They have a hardwired object recognition. They know what a wall is. Walls do not have arrows coming through them, therefore it is not a wall. Very simple If/then statement and fully within the guidelines.

Now, if they had not been told to attack intruders, the programming would not compel them to.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-10, 05:03 PM
Something interesting that came up in the mirror image thread was that major image really will dispel if shot by an arrow (unless the caster is still concentrating enough to make the wall 'react appropriately to the attack', apparently complete with illusory arrow sticking out.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-10, 05:05 PM
They have wisdom because they can perceive their environment. They don't have common sense, they are MINDLESS. They don't get a save unless they interact with it, which in this case means touch it. They won't do that unless their orders make them do it.

Really? I always assumed common sense pretty much was wisdom. The old explanation of wisdom vs. intelligence was something like "Intelligence lets you know that it's raining, wisdom tells you should probably go inside" of course that was old d&d and it seems to be backwards in this edition.

Lysander
2009-11-10, 05:12 PM
It all depends on the skeleton's instructions. If their orders are to "Pursue and kill any intruders", and a wall appears between them and their goal, they're going to attack the wall to try and reach their goal.

Look at it this way. It isn't that a skeleton is too stupid to attack a brick wall, it's that a skeleton is too stupid not to attack a brick wall. Undead pounding ceaselessly on walls because they don't have a better plan is classic genre.

Kantolin
2009-11-10, 05:33 PM
But if a wall pops up between them and their opponents, it might be an illusion, but it also might be the spell wall of stone. Or an illusion of a stone wall over a wall of force. Or a door that's carefully made to look like a part of the wall in a vein similar to the movie Labrynth (Not that it was exactly used there...). If mindless undead react to one, they should react to the other the same way.

Saph's idea is solid, though. It can also be circumvented - namely with meld with stone or a couple similar spells - but then this becomes a 'beat the computer's logic algorithm', which is amusing enough. ^_^

Of course, with the necromancer able to react like a person would, he could just notify the mindless creatures to go through the wall, but then we're adding a controlling mind to the equation.

Lysander's point is also logical, provided it's taken both ways - if zombies will punch a wall over and over to try to get at something they're pretty sure is behind it, then that's fine too - so long as they react similarly to things like ghost sound on the other side of a wall, or walls of stone.

Gnaeus
2009-11-10, 06:08 PM
By RAW, they DO have common sense. INT=/WIS. They can perceive their surroundings just as well as you or I can and as a result of that perception they are allowed a save. If you don't think watching arrows fly through a wall and hitting you counts as interaction, I don't know what does.

Think of it like this: They have a hardwired object recognition. They know what a wall is. Walls do not have arrows coming through them, therefore it is not a wall. Very simple If/then statement and fully within the guidelines.

Now, if they had not been told to attack intruders, the programming would not compel them to.

Sharks have higher wisdom than skeletons do. Sharks DO NOT have common sense. My Cat has a higher wisdom and intelligence than a skeleton, and he still thinks he can catch the dot from a pen light. The cat would EVENTUALLY figure out an illusionary wall, but only because as an animal it has curiosity and would rub up against it or try to sharpen its claws on it. I have known stupid cats who weren't smart enough to figure out a pet door. they were still smarter than skeletons.

A skeleton is mindless, like vermin. An ant (also smarter than a skeleton, by 1 wis) will not realize that a wall is fake because it sees something coming out of it. It will only interact with said wall if its little ant programming to wander around brings it into contact with the wall. Same thing with a skeleton.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-10, 06:33 PM
But if a wall pops up between them and their opponents, it might be an illusion, but it also might be the spell wall of stone. Or an illusion of a stone wall over a wall of force. Or a door that's carefully made to look like a part of the wall in a vein similar to the movie Labrynth (Not that it was exactly used there...). If mindless undead react to one, they should react to the other the same way.

Saph's idea is solid, though. It can also be circumvented - namely with meld with stone or a couple similar spells - but then this becomes a 'beat the computer's logic algorithm', which is amusing enough. ^_^

Of course, with the necromancer able to react like a person would, he could just notify the mindless creatures to go through the wall, but then we're adding a controlling mind to the equation.

Lysander's point is also logical, provided it's taken both ways - if zombies will punch a wall over and over to try to get at something they're pretty sure is behind it, then that's fine too - so long as they react similarly to things like ghost sound on the other side of a wall, or walls of stone.

Of course by the time you're casting wall of stone, most of the mindless undead that you'll be fighting will probably make progress breaking through it anyway

ghashxx
2009-11-10, 09:47 PM
So there isn't any actual official ruling about mindless undead and illusions, it's more a common sense ruling about how things work together?

thubby
2009-11-10, 09:59 PM
if they can hear you i could see an argument for them attempting to go through the wall.


So there isn't any actual official ruling about mindless undead and illusions, it's more a common sense ruling about how things work together?

by RAW undead are affected by the illusion in question, since they have "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)"



If I were DMing this game, I would agree with Nero to a point. The first time you do this, maybe the first 2 times, you've done something clever and new. After that, taking down the undead like that would be a "cheap shot", and I would not award experience for it (because you didn't learn anything new).
would you not give experience to a wizard who used fireball again?:smallannoyed:

Eldariel
2009-11-10, 10:11 PM
If I were DMing this game, I would agree with Nero to a point. The first time you do this, maybe the first 2 times, you've done something clever and new. After that, taking down the undead like that would be a "cheap shot", and I would not award experience for it (because you didn't learn anything new).

So you punish people for making repeated use of efficient, unconventional tactics? Not very nice :/

ghashxx
2009-11-11, 12:06 AM
So you punish people for making repeated use of efficient, unconventional tactics? Not very nice :/

I think he wants to push players away from using "cheap tactics" to make normal usage of mindless enemies pointless. I can see his side as this means the DM is either forced to let the PCs waltz through the dungeon easily surmounting the horde of mindless undead, or he has to figure out some convoluted manner to bypass the current solution which may feel either manufactured or just pure BS to the players. Tough call.

Grumman
2009-11-11, 12:28 AM
So you punish people for making repeated use of efficient, unconventional tactics? Not very nice :/
To me it sounds like railroading, using OOC punishment to protect his NPC from the consequences of his reliance on inherently flawed minions.

lsfreak
2009-11-11, 12:39 AM
I think he wants to push players away from using "cheap tactics" to make normal usage of mindless enemies pointless. I can see his side as this means the DM is either forced to let the PCs waltz through the dungeon easily surmounting the horde of mindless undead, or he has to figure out some convoluted manner to bypass the current solution which may feel either manufactured or just pure BS to the players. Tough call.

Eh. "Cheap tactics" means what? This seems like the same kind of DM that's worried that rogues OMG20d6DMG. In other words, DMs who can't think beyond their very narrow idea of how things should be done, and who have players who are capable of breaking those idea.

Plus, if the DM fills an entire dungeon with one monster, he's probably not doing his job right. A dungeon filled mostly with mindless undead should also have - at the very least - some intelligent undead and some necromancer controllers in there as well.

Ravens_cry
2009-11-11, 12:51 AM
Good tactics, that make sense IN WORLD, should be applauded.
Changing how a mindless automaton after a few battles is worse then having them work that way to start, it sounds peevish and spiteful and breaks verisimilitude. If the party had used meld with stone, would the skeletons start using phasing arrows that they 'just happened' to have on them? Yes, it can be annoying to have your well wrought plans laid to naught, but in-game thinking and clever use of resources is a good thing.

elliott20
2009-11-11, 01:12 AM
I always just assumed that skeletons do not rely on visual perception to sense people but rather have a life-sense sort of thing that navigates them. As such, they would act as if the illusion was not there at all and continue to strike.

but then I started thinking about it and this bares some fairly disturbing issues since it basically means ALL illusion spells would stop working on them...

hmm... must mulll.

icefractal
2009-11-11, 03:44 AM
I think it's pretty clear that being undead doesn't automatically give you "life sense", because the Dread Wraith specifically gets that ability.

As far as the skeletons' reaction, I'd say it depends on their orders. But probably, they'd start trying to break down the wall. However, if the illusion were of a maze of walls instead, they'd probably try to follow the path through it, unless they were specifically ordered to "walk through all newly appearing walls" (which would backfire if an actual Wall of X spell was cast).

Being as they are mindless, I don't think people jumping back and forth through the wall would affect their decision, except to the extent that they will definitely know people are on the other side. But they would still try to break through it instead of just walking through.

As far as "ruining the dungeon" - an all-mindless dungeon has a lot of ways to bypass it anyway. What if a Cleric had cast Hide from Undead on everyone? It's just not a legitimate challenge to most parties, similar to a bunch of crocodiles in an open field, or a pit of scorpions that nobody falls into.

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 09:20 AM
Specifically, if there are 4 skeletons at one end of a narrow room shooting arrows at us, and I illusionate a brick wall 'sealing' them in (I forget which illusion spell it was, but it had only a visual effect, and was not mind-affecting), how will the skeletons react? They can still 'hear' us (I'm not sure how skeletons perceive their environment), but they can't see us. Will they try to tear down the wall to get to us (breaking the illusion), or will they 'de-activate', since they no longer have a way to reach us? Also, if we step through the wall illusion to ambush them, will they follow us out if we step out?

Okay, I got my hands on my copy of Libris Mortis, which specifically talks about undead senses on page 11. Make of this what you will.

Libris Mortis: Undead are naturally predatory creatures, and as such have sense that allow them to reveal their prey. Their senses (Vision, Scent, Hearing and Taste) are Ex abilities, powered by negative energy.

All Undead can both hear and smell, even incorporeal ones.

All Undead can see, and in fact have darkvision out to 60 feet. (This is also in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm))

Only Undead with tongues (like ghouls and wights) can taste.

Undead with lifesense (like wraiths) can only perceive the environment in the immediate vicinity of living creatures. To their senses, the world is dark except for a 20 foot radius around anything living, which is illuminated. This is light reveals objects and surroundings as well as the creature itself. Only undead that are specifically said to have this ability can use it.


I think he wants to push players away from using "cheap tactics" to make normal usage of mindless enemies pointless. I can see his side as this means the DM is either forced to let the PCs waltz through the dungeon easily surmounting the horde of mindless undead, or he has to figure out some convoluted manner to bypass the current solution which may feel either manufactured or just pure BS to the players. Tough call.

Not to me. I consider that lazy DMing, pure and simple. If he wants his undead to defeat illusions, he has lots of options available. Rely more on undead that don't use ranged attacks - they hear a noise behind the wall, they try to tear it down and get their will save that way. Include intelligent undead - even Ghouls and Wights can form conclusions. If you rely on skeletons and zombies and the party relies on their stupidity to win, that's an acceptable strategy.


As far as "ruining the dungeon" - an all-mindless dungeon has a lot of ways to bypass it anyway. What if a Cleric had cast Hide from Undead on everyone? It's just not a legitimate challenge to most parties, similar to a bunch of crocodiles in an open field, or a pit of scorpions that nobody falls into.

This, exactly.

Ozymandias9
2009-11-11, 12:11 PM
Good tactics, that make sense IN WORLD, should be applauded.
Changing how a mindless automaton after a few battles is worse then having them work that way to start, it sounds peevish and spiteful and breaks verisimilitude. If the party had used meld with stone, would the skeletons start using phasing arrows that they 'just happened' to have on them? Yes, it can be annoying to have your well wrought plans laid to naught, but in-game thinking and clever use of resources is a good thing.

I agree. But at the same time, if the party can approach an appropriate fight and think of it like fish in a barrel, then the CR of the encounter probably needs adjustment from the default.

ghashxx
2009-11-13, 03:17 PM
I agree. But at the same time, if the party can approach an appropriate fight and think of it like fish in a barrel, then the CR of the encounter probably needs adjustment from the default.

Ooooh, I like this idea...in certain respects. I guess it's one of those things that would require repeat usage. Like if you take out a dragon from multiple lucky crits and you rolled super damage, then it's not like you should adjust the CR because of luck. But if the party actually figures out a way to reliably kill dragons with almost no danger to themselves? Then yeah, fiddle with different monsters/older dragons.