Class and Level Geekery VI (some [spoilers]) [Archive]

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RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 08:31 AM

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS. When I have to cite to a post where justification is given, I do so with a hyperlinked asterisk

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!

Be sure to read the FAQ*

:roy:Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) ≥12
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ≥24 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0687.html) (Unmodified strength ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html)) *)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 14-18 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis ≥14 (“very good"*)
Cha ≥12 (“decent*)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥60): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: As of Comic 774 all of Roy's items are in Haley's possession.
Magical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (medium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html)*), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), +5 Greatsword (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), Partial list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), Unnamed Book, Sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11*/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1* (character level ≥16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html))
Attributes (19 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 ("jump... exceeded movement..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)*)
Dex ≥15 (to use Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html))
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≤9 ("I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (11): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB, Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)...
Skills (89): Balance ≥5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0, Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: As of comic 774 all of Belkar's Items are in Haley's possession.
Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 3 or more small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), Bucket and Spade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.pngMr. Scruffy
True neutral male Tiny Animal (cat) animal companion
Attributes:
Str ≥4
Dex ≥16
Con 10
Int 2
Wis 12
Cha 7
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Skills (≥6): Listen 2, Spot 2...
Abilities: Animal companion (≥+2 HD, ≥+2 natural armor, ≥2 bonus tricks, Link, Share Spells, and Evasion, possibly more depending on number of Belkar's levels of ranger), Cat Skills (+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Jump checks. Use Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8).
Items: None

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11507958&postcount=19), Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0007.html) ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 (carries V while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0507.html))
Dex <10 (in a Dragon article, says he has a Dex penalty)
Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0352.html))
Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html)
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1, Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0052.html) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak language (dwarven)... (No Listen)
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0219.html), +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, bless beer*, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), stonecunning, turn undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html), weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), flask, full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0025.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0237.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), Scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)...

:elan:Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) Human Male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0050.html) 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)/Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html) ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html)
Attributes (16 pt buy min):
Str < 20 ("more Charisma than Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)")
Dex 13-17 (Has Dodge, was able to roll a four on Move Silently checks)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≤9 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html); Giant says "Int penalty"*)
Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0080.html))
Cha ≥22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) (≥Unmodified charisma ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html))
Feats (6): Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0761.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html)...
Skills (≥80): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen, Move Silently ≤1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html), Perform (Sing) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), Perform (wind instruments) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0198.html), Ridecc≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0026.html)...
Abilities: bardic music (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html), bardic lore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html), countersong, fascinate, favored class (any), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), inspire competence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
Items: Belt of charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0388.html), silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0471.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html), Drawing of Elanasaurus Rex (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), His Old Clothes, His Old Rapier, Kis Kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8484548&postcount=12).
Spells (per day ≥ 3 5 4 4 3 1; known 6 4 4 4 4 2): Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Lesser Confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0013.html).

:haley:Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0393.html), Human Female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0008.html) ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str 11-15 (high enough to carry Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html), but must drag Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html))
Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5"*)
Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (6+1): Dodge, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 18 (maxed ranks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge (Arcane), Open Lock ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Search, Sense Motive ≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0108.html), Use Rope ≥8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)...
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Favored class (any), Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html) +8d6, 2 Special abilities (at least one feat), Trapfinding, Trap sense +5, Uncanny dodge
Items: +5 bow of icy air freshness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html), Crystal's +4 Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), Magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), at least four quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0799.html) (inc'g silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html)), masterworked lockpicks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), at least 200,000 gp in cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), Trowel, Metal Detector (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html), Two Jars of Aton™ Moisturizer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html), at least four unidentified potions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0799.html)

:vaarsuvius:Vaarsuvius
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) alignment (Neutral on the Good/Evil Axis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)), Elven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html) ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0245.html)")
Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays*)
Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 23, 19 unmodified (based on spells cast and limits thereof (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html))
Wis 10-12 ("moderate wisdom"*)
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html) with "poor charisma"*)
Feats (11): AlertnessB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Maximiz Spell, Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell* or Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0161.html)
Skills (97): Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html)≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Spot (+2), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0030.html) (+2), +3 to Appraise ChecksB, Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class (wizard), Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html)...
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) (based on Intelligence calculations), Ring of Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html) (affects level ≥3 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html)), robes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), many (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) spellbooks, ink, paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4*, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), nine books of unknown title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html). No potions or scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)...
Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 2+1 1+1): Arcane Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0104.html), Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0781.html), Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0624.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0397.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0058.html), Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), Power Word Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0790.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)...

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngBlackwing
True Neutral Male Tiny Magical Beast (Raven), 14 HD (1/2 of V's hp)
Attributes:
Str 1 (raven)
Dex 15 (raven)
Con 10 (raven)
Int 13 (raven, 15th level wizard's familiar)
Wis 14 (raven)
Cha 6 (raven)
Feats: Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Weapon FinesseB
Skills (Blackwing uses V's skill ranks, unless Blackwing's ranks are higher): Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen +5, Speak language (Common, Elven), Spellcraft, Spot +7
Abilities: Deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low-light vision, share spells, speak with master, speak with birds, spell resistance 19, +7 to natural armor
Items: bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), and tiny sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html)

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 08:32 AM

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Where did you get this idea?
A. The first incarnation of this thread was started by runolfr in the old version of the message boards. Everybody is always talking about this stuff and this thread is intended to be a central repository for all discussions of the stats of OOTS and the various NPCs. You can read the prior version of this thread here:
Class and Level Geekery
Class and Level Geekery II
Class and Level Geekery III
Class and Level Geekery IV
Class and Level Geekery V

Q. Doesn't Comic X demonstrate Vaarsuvius' gender?
A. No. No! NO! Please read the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10). Better yet, I'll quote it verbatim:

Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation.

Q. When do the OOTS PCs level up?
A. OOTS is 10th level some time before episode 1, 11th level at episode 12, 12th level at 124, 13th level by 397 (Elan's 13th level was in his new prestige class), and Belkar hit 14th level in 515 (although if he failed his save against the wight's level drain, he'd still be 13th level). Haley was 15th level some time before 615. Vaarsuvius is definitively 14th by 627 (which is the definitive indication that OOTS ceased leveling up at the same rate since Roy's death). (Durkon may also be 15th level.) Elan raised a level in 647, and has 13 levels of bard and one or more levels of Dashing Swordsman. If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

Q. Why don't you list character ages?
A. A few reasons. First, age is only relevant in D&D if one changes Age Categories. As far as we can tell, everybody is in the "Adult" Age category. Second, the Giant has not been very, how shall we say, consistent, on character ages. Since there's no mechanical (read geeky) benefit/penalty to any specific age, unless someone changes age category in a strip, we're not tracking it.

Q. Why is Mr. Scruffy an animal companion? I don't think it's definitive.
A. The extended discussion on this begins here.

Q. A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
A. No. As seen in a thousand Miko threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here, wherever possible, are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

Q. In Comic 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

Q. Does Comic 17 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) mean that Belkar has a sonic sunder attack?
A. No. it would ruin the joke if Belkar was referring to some sonic attack, as opposed to making fun of the flimsiness of the standard rapier.

Q. In Comic 28 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), didn't Haley claim to have a Charisma of 18?
A. She was talking about Elan.

Q. In Comic 31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), Roy is more appetizing than Vaarsuvius to the illithid. Doesn't this mean Roy should have a higher Intelligence than Vaarsuvius?
A. No. The illithid apparently measures the aggregate of all the mental Abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). V has a high Intelligence, but average Wisdom and low Charisma. Roy needs to have a higher aggregate score.

Q. In Comic 34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Roy says Elan's bardic bonus is +1, meaning he is no greater than 8th level. Doesn't this make him two levels lower than the rest of the party?
A. Since everybody gains a level at the same time (more or less) in Comic 124 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html), it seems everybody is the same level. Otherwise, they'd increase in level in staggered bits. So Comic 124 trumps Comic 34. And since we know the party level was 11 at the time, Elan's bardic bonus is higher than +1, notwithstanding what Roy says.

Q. In Comic 38 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
A. No. First poison inflicts variable Ability Damage. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 0, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.

Q. Doesn't Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was likely an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell. The evidence, at best, is inconclusive.

Q. Then why does Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Vampiric Touch? That spell might even be in Vaarsuvius' barred school of necromancy!
A. Vaarsuvius mentions ths in between two spells be know Vaarsuvius possesses. Thus, Vaarsuvius was not kidding at the time. Even if Vaarsuvius can't cast necromancy, Vaarsuvius could hve had that spell before the upgrade and kept it in the spellbook afterwards.

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.
UPDATE: In the wake of another debate about this, two schools of thought have risen, regarding whether a Ranger needs 13 or 14 wisdom to cast the spell. Based on various readings of the rules from the SRD, Wizards.com and Splat Books, it is possible to see different meanings. In the interest of not alienating fellow geeks, the assumption, until explicit confirmation from either Wizards or Rich about which is correct, will be that that funny and plot trumps the rules.

Q. In Comic 73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Thor acts pretty chaotically and he's listed as Chaotic Good in Deities and Demigods. Since clerics cannot be more than one step removed from their deity, how can Durkon be lawful?
A. The Thor in OOTS is not the Thor in Deities and Demigods. Thor is more likely Neutral Good with lots of Lawful and Chaotic characteristics. Either way, Durkon, is clearly Lawful Good.

Q. Where's Elan's coffee maker (Comic 81 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), espresto box (Comic 84 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), squirrel, paddleball game, lantern, roller skate or jam (Comic 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html))?
A. From Comic 471 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Elan appears to have lost all of his equipment when Nale temporarily switched places with him. So only the equipment he has been seen with since his escape from prison in Comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) will be listed.

Q. From Comic 127 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), You use Vaarsuvius' statement that Elan can't use cantrips as evidence that Elan has under a 10 Intelligence. But Elan casts spells all the time.
A. In D&D, wizards use Intelligence to cast spells and require Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips. Bards use Charisma. Vaarsuvius is saying Elan doesn't have the Intelligence needed to cast cantrips as a Wizard.

Q. In Comic 170 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html), Durkon gets a golden tankard. Why isn't that on his possessions?
A. It's too big for Durkon to carry, so we assume it was left behind. If it shows up again, it will be placed on the possessions list.

Q. In Comic 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), doesn't Vaarsuvius demonstrate the skill Speak Language (draconic)?
A. Not necessarily. Vaarsuvius may also have ranks in Decipher Script (for which evidence has been found in one of the Dragon Magazine strips).

Q. In Comic 219 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html), Durkon is fighting ogres. Why is this strip referenced as his bonus for fighting giants?
A. In D&D 3.5, ogres are of the "giant type", and dwarves (like Durkon) get a dodge bonus when fighting creatures of the giant type.

Q. In Comic 245 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), Vaarsuvius and Haley only manage to save one bag of treasure. Why do you still list Haley as having eight bags of holding?
A. The bag they rescued is not a bag of holding, but a regular sack of treasure. We know this because in Comic 130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) we see what a bag of holding looks like, and it doesn't look like the sack of treasure in Comic 245. Haley keeps her bags of holding on her person. It wouldn't have needed rescuing.

Q. In Comic 249 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Belkar talks about Roy's "heavy armor". Why is he listed with only Medium armor?
A. In order for Roy carrying Durkon (as he does in Comic 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)) to make sense, Roy would need to be wearing nothing heavier than Medium armor. Otherwise, Roy runs no faster than Durkon. Thus, we assume Belkar is speaking descriptively about Roy's armor, in accordance with his Craft Disturbing Mental Images Feat.

Q. Doesn't Comic 599 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) demonstrate that Vaarsuvius can cast Overland Flight?
A. Quite probably. But until we get confirmation that Vaarsuvius flew farther than a 13-14th level wizard can fly using the Fly spell, we cannot state it with certainty.

Q. Doesn't Comic 616 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) demonstrate that Belkar has Improved Trip and Improved Disarm? Crystal never got an AoO on him, which should mean he has those feats.
A. Possibly. However, AoOs are not always shown in the comic. Crystal may have forgotten to use it, or may have missed and the Giant didn't bother to show it to us.

Q. A character is flying, and is carrying someone else. Does this mean we can determine their strength by examining the encumbrance rules?
A. No. At least, not automatically. You see, in Comic 689 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html) Vaarsuvius carries Durkon while flying. Following the encumbrance rules, (s)he'd need 15 strength to do this. However, (s)he previously declared ownership of a strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), which contradicts this. The approach will be that in non-stressful situations, i.e. out of combat, the encumbrance rules for flight will be ignored. We can still determine strength for this situation if it happens inside combat or a similar hurried scenario.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 08:33 AM

Other characters

Stats for characters who aren't the Order of the Stick.

Team Evil

:redcloak: Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)Male, Cleric ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥20 (save DC for L7 spell is >21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
Cha ≥12 (repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) use (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) Rebuke Undead)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wonderous Item (helped Xykon create his phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html)), darkvision 60'.
Items: Monster Manual II, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), Backup Unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Eye Patch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), Crimson Mantle, spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

:xykon: Xykon
Chaotic Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer ≥27 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (No Evidence)
Dex ~10 (No Evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~15 (No Evidence, +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Wis ~15 (No Evidence, +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Cha ≥28 (based on Start of Darkness events)
Feats (≥13): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Improved Spell Capacity x3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) (Maximized Energy Drain is a 12th level spell), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), some sort of crafting feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)
Skills (≥46): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, Spellcraft ≥24, Knowledge (Arcana) ≥24 (Prereqs for Epic Spellcasting feat)
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) likely belonging to Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), Unspecified magic item that grants immunity to Fire damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
SoD spoiler:
Also has (or had) a gem (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html) containing the souls of Dorukan and Lirian.
Spells Known: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Either Stoneskin or Stoneshape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko
Evil, Human Female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 8+
(minimum CL 9 for both divine and arcane spells)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≥16 (minimum to cast Create Undead as a wizard)
Wis ≥15 (minimum to cast Flame Strike as a cleric)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (≥6): Scribe scroll, Quicken Spell
Skills (≥42): Knowledge (arcana) 6+, Knowledge (religion) 6+ (Requirements for Mystic Theurge)
Abilities: Rebuke/Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (Wishes she could rebuke Paladins like in First Edition), two unknown domains.
Items: Unholy Symbol, Xykon Plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), Fireball, Invisibility, Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) Fire Orb, Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)

The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human Male, Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) ≥1 - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) ≥1 - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)
Attributes:
Str <20 (Giant says Nale and Elan's Strength, Dex and Con are identical. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955&postcount=47))
Dex 13-17 (See Strength)
Con ~10 (no evidence, See Strength)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ≥15 (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html))
Feats (8): Unknown.
Skills (≥49): Bluff
Abilities: Sneak attack +1d6 (or more), trapfinding
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)
Known Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). Nale claims (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) to specialize in Enchantment spells.

:sabine: Sabine
Evil Succubus, Outsider, Rogue ≥1 (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str ~13 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Dex ~12 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Con ~12 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Int ~16 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Wis ~14 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Cha ~26 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (120+): Unknown
Abilities: Energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), shape-shifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), DR against either cold iron or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) (or both? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)), plane shift 1/day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
Items: None

:thog: Thog
Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) - Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) ≥10
Attributes:
Str ≥14 (able to carry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3735368&postcount=425) Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) while flying, likely higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 8 or lower ("Int was his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).")
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats (7): Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html)...
Skills (≥56): Unknown
Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood.
Items: Leprechaun suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri
Non-Good Non-Chaotic (Required for an Imp Familiar) Male Drow, Wizard 13+
Transmuter (V says they're equal level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html)), barred schools (two of: Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy)
Str ~10 (No Evidence)
Dex ~12 (No Evidence, Racial)
Con ~8 (No Evidence, Racial)
Int ≥16 (Minimum to cast Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html))
Wis ~ 10(No Evidence)
Cha ~12 (No Evidence, Racial)
Feats: AlertnessB, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237#post822237), Unspecified Feat(s) that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Lightning Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)
Abilities: Familiar (Qarr), Spell Resistance ≥ 24
Skills:
Items: Spellbook, Unspecified "Stuff" that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html)
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Unspecified attack spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) characterized by green lightning, Unspecified attack spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html) characterized by acid, Protection from Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/SGdentarthurdent/qarr.gif Qarr
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) Male, Outsider, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) 8-10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (No Evidence)
Dex ~17 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Con ~10 (No Evidence)
Int ≥13 (No Evidence, Familiar)
Wis ~12 (No Evidence, Racial Modifiers)
Cha ≥14 (Needed to cast 4th-level spells)
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, AlertnessB
Skills: Unknown
Abilities: Poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility (self only) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), suggestion 1/day, commune 1/week, telepathy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), damage reduction 5/good or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), summon devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), fast healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), capable of teleporting self and 50 pounds of unliving material (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), Natural Armor ≥8, Improved Evasion, Share Spells with Zz'dtri, Spell Resistance ≥21, Zz'dtri can scry on him 1/day
Items: None
Known Spells: Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11094381&postcount=20), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)

Part-time Members

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 14+ (cast Firestorm and Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html))
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 17+ (Minimum to cast Fire Storm)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)
Skills (66+): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: None

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1308/pompeypb9.jpg Pompey
Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 4+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 12+ (Minimum to cast Summon Monster II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html))
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe scroll, possibly Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) and/or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)
Skills (55+): Unknown
Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Items: Unknown
Spells Known: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4913/yokyokbg4.jpg Yokyok (Deceased)

Possibly Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), Male Kobold, Unknown Class
Items: Rapier
This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.

Hilgya
Female Dwarf, Cleric 7+
Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire. Rich says she is "Evil" in Dungeon Crawlin Fools.
Wis 14+ (Minimum to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html))
Items: Horned helment, armor, shield, holy symbol of Loki

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (Deceased)

Male Kobold, Ranger
Feats: Combat Reflexes

The Sapphire Guard

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased)

Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 11+ (Minimum to cast Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639))
Cha 12+ (can use Laying On Hands)
Feats (6-7): Two-Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)
Skills (30+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html).
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows). Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.

Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).

Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html), Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 10+ (no evidence)
Wis 10+ (no evidence)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (28+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silver katana, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.pngO-Chul
Lawful Good, Human Male, Fighter/Paladin. Level unknown, but likely 140+ hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4100390&postcount=126). Was lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) prior to captivity.
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~23-27 (Has a Con in the mid-20's (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html))
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha <10 (He admits that Cha is his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html))
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (39+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html),
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (?), remove disease, smite evil.
Items: None

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human Female, Paladin 9+ (has a large shark mount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)); Hinjo says she's gained a few levels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (Prequisite for cleave)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 10+ (no evidence)
Wis 10+ (no evidence)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Weapon Focus (Longspear), Power Attack, Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)
Skills (27+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Large Shark "Razor"), smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Longspear, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

Other Characters
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Female Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))
Cha 13+
Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), can detect magic auras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)
Spells known: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) Human Female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha ~10 (No evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe Scroll
Skills (24+): Unknown
Spells known: Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (Deceased)

Evil, Human Female, Sorcerer 12+ (Can cast at least 3 level 6 spells per day)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int ~10 (No evidence)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha 16+ (Minimum to cast Fireball 6 times a day)
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), not Still Spell or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Skills (42+): Unknown
Spells known: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

hamishspence

2009-11-10, 08:39 AM

Vargtass

2009-11-10, 08:46 AM

It says "Str 13- minimum needed to wield a katana one-handed" in Miko's statblock.

I don't remember this being a requirement- all that's needed is Exotic Weapon Proficiency as far as I know- and that doesn't have a Str requirement.

Maybe something else puts her Str as minimum 13? the Power Attack feat?

I can't find that requirement on katana or bastardsword in the SRD - however, STR 13 is a requirement for Power Attack, as you say, so the reference can be changed to that instead, I suppose...

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 09:02 AM

It says "Str 13- minimum needed to wield a katana one-handed" in Miko's statblock.

I don't remember this being a requirement- all that's needed is Exotic Weapon Proficiency as far as I know- and that doesn't have a Str requirement.

Maybe something else puts her Str as minimum 13? the Power Attack feat?

The Dwarven Waraxe and Bastard Sword are special cases of EWP: They both need Strength 13 in addition to the other prerequisites. Read here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency).

hamishspence

2009-11-10, 09:05 AM

If so- that is definitely not in the PHB.

Oops. I spotted it in the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat entry in PHB- how did I miss that? Mea culpa.

And I don't recall it in the errata either.

Not everybody reads the SRD- a lot of people just know what they know from the gaming books.

Dark Matter

2009-11-10, 09:10 AM

(Continued from Geekery V)

Yes, it is. Frankly, Wrecan, I see your point, but when the opposite view has the bonus of working with the stats we were given, it is the correct one.Given that there are multiple points of view on this, the issue is NOT "which is correct", but rather "which view does god [Rich] hold?"

And don't even get me started on the Belkar hater and ridiculous assertions of abysmally low wisdom. Hint - read the comics where Belkar uses profession.Interestingly him as cook isn't a good check. It was a low DC (that creature does *not* care what it eats), Belkar had a +2 secret ingredient, and most importantly, he was in a position to "take 10".

Where it gets interesting is when he was "crafting" traps in his fight with Miko. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html Granted, search and spot aren't class skills for her, but still.

And Epic Forge Ring, Maximized Drain and Superb Dispelling don't push his level? :smallamused:Yeah, point. But our evidence that X's above 27 isn't conclusive (although I agree, he probably is).

And speaking of inconclusive evidence, 689 is yet more evidence that V's casting Overland Flight at the start of every day. We've yet to see him cast Fly but somehow it's always active. Granted, it's not conclusive yet... but I doubt V would prepare more than one Fly spell if that's what he's doing.

Kroy

2009-11-10, 09:11 AM

Vargtass

2009-11-10, 09:13 AM

The Dwarven Waraxe and Bastard Sword are special cases of EWP: They both need Strength 13 in addition to the other prerequisites. Read here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency).

Wow - imagine it listed as special cases under EWP and not in the entry for Bastard Sword...

Good find!

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 09:45 AM

Wow - imagine it listed as special cases under EWP and not in the entry for Bastard Sword...

Good find!

I was aware of it because one of my first characters was a dual-bastard-sword-wielding fighter. :smalltongue:

Hardcore

2009-11-10, 09:52 AM

Shouldn't Celia be lawful good?

Shale

2009-11-10, 09:54 AM

The link to the FAQ in the first post goes to the old thread.

Edit: Also, Belkar is now out of spice.

Vargtass

2009-11-10, 09:54 AM

Shouldn't Celia be lawful good?

What is the evidence?

Yendor

2009-11-10, 09:56 AM

In addition to the Alertness bonus, having a raven familiar gives Vaarsuvius +3 to Appraise checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars).

Trixie

2009-11-10, 10:03 AM

Given that there are multiple points of view on this, the issue is NOT "which is correct", but rather "which view does god [Rich] hold?"

Well, there is only one view that satisfies both comics, so we can assume Rich hold this one.

And frankly, that Artificer info is plainly overwhelming all others, as it is later one and says clearly - plus it doesn't involve convoluted guesswork, multiple interpretations and wishful thinking.

Interestingly him as cook isn't a good check. It was a low DC (that creature does *not* care what it eats), Belkar had a +2 secret ingredient, and most importantly, he was in a position to "take 10".

First, Belkar has very refined palate, and cooks for himself (bonus strips). Okay, he might be taking 20, although this is impractical. However, in Bonus Dragon strips his cooking skills provide massive bonus to intimidate, so I guess they are not that low :smalltongue:

Where it gets interesting is when he was "crafting" traps in his fight with Miko. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html Granted, search and spot aren't class skills for her, but still.

Huh, good spot. His skill points had to go somewhere.

Yeah, point. But our evidence that X's above 27 isn't conclusive (although I agree, he probably is).

Well, SD or EFR alone push him over 30, at least.

And speaking of inconclusive evidence, 689 is yet more evidence that V's casting Overland Flight at the start of every day. We've yet to see him cast Fly but somehow it's always active. Granted, it's not conclusive yet... but I doubt V would prepare more than one Fly spell if that's what he's doing.

Um, I don't think so. In this strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html V indicates she wants Flight, and that concern (with flying time, or inability to fly) would be simply nonexistent given access to OF. V had to get flight in AC, though, as wasting high level spells learned on spells that don't belong to your specialist school isn't very wise.

Jagos

2009-11-10, 10:29 AM

What is the evidence?

There's the evidence of her with Roy, her disdain for Haley (who in her opinion cares only about herself), and mostly her conviction to always follow the rules (see also, her chastisement of Haley for throwing away the candy bar instead of putting it into a proper receptacle)

hamishspence

2009-11-10, 10:31 AM

Not so much "littering is illegal" as "littering puts animals in danger"

Dark Faun

2009-11-10, 10:33 AM

Does being a lawyer twisting the laws for her purposes count as Lawful? :smallconfused:

hamishspence

2009-11-10, 10:40 AM

This is the whole schtick of Lawful Evil.

Though if she's only doing it, to get innocent clients off, Lawful Neutral to Lawful Good can apply.

Random832

2009-11-10, 10:43 AM

Are we debating Celia's alignment? Don't forget the 'contract' she 'negotiated' Haley into.

Douglas

2009-11-10, 10:50 AM

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.
These two should be changed imo. The argument they are based on depends on a relationship implied only by proximity of presentation, and leads to either something with no precedent or some absurd consequences (see my arguments in the previous thread). Scrolls may not have a listed class, but they do have a listed spell level, and that's what determines the minimum ability score. Additionally, this quote (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ask/20080519a) from WotC makes sense only if the scroll and its crafter determine the required ability score.

Assuming you accept this argument, Belkar's wisdom should be noted as exactly 9, as that is the only value that satisfies both the "have a penalty" statement and the rules requirements for using the scrolls.

Jagos

2009-11-10, 11:16 AM

The problem with the second one, which is what I believe should be noted, is the fact that CSW can't be used by Belkar as a third level spell. Since it's a 4th level spell for him, I figure it would be an example of Funny > Rules for this one part.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 11:32 AM

These two should be changed imo. The argument they are based on depends on a relationship implied only by proximity of presentation, and leads to either something with no precedent or some absurd consequences (see my arguments in the previous thread). Scrolls may not have a listed class, but they do have a listed spell level, and that's what determines the minimum ability score. Additionally, this quote (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ask/20080519a) from WotC makes sense only if the scroll and its crafter determine the required ability score.

Assuming you accept this argument, Belkar's wisdom should be noted as exactly 9, as that is the only value that satisfies both the "have a penalty" statement and the rules requirements for using the scrolls.

I followed the debate in the last thread. I didn't particularly care for it.

This issue has been quite controversial, if I rule on one side or the other people won't be happy, and they'll keep coming back to argue the point later. So I'll take the third path and invoke Screw the Rules, I have Plot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02), assuming that for the flow of drama, the plan worked to save Elan. If someone from Wizards comes round and explicitly tells us what Wisdom a Ranger needs to use that scroll, or Rich says which interpretation he was using, I'll change it at that time. Until that day, I'd like to draw a line under this debate, and I'll change the FAQ to reflect it.

Dark Matter

2009-11-10, 12:55 PM

Well, SD or EFR alone push him over 30, at least.Yeah but we don't know for sure that he has an Epic Ring, let alone that he made one. Trash talking your foe isn't really a solid basis for conclusions, and X was pretty indirect even then. I think and you think that he can do this, but our proof is too slight.

Um, I don't think so. In this strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html V indicates she wants Flight, and that concern (with flying time, or inability to fly) would be simply nonexistent given access to OF. V had to get flight in AC, though, as wasting high level spells learned on spells that don't belong to your specialist school isn't very wise.That comic is something like 3 character levels ago and it indicates a strong concern with Flight, I could use it to support my argument too. ;) V has had plenty of time to pick it up and has certainly picked up a number of spells since then, most of them her choosing from a wide selection.

We never see her actually casting Fly, but for a while now she always seems to have it available. She didn't bother with it against the imp, but she had it for the ABD without needing to cast it. Ditto this time (and maybe even ditto that Devil the Imp summoned). Yes, it's *possible* she's casting Fly (repeatedly) off screen, but it's getting less likely and less reasonable as time goes on. V likes fireballs and lightning bolts, replacing large numbers of those with Fly seems out of character as well (and she didn't have one available after X nailed her with SD so she can't be really stocking them).

V is 14th level, she has 5x 5th level spell slots, using one of them for Overland Flight doesn't seem unreasonable (she *should* be throwing zaps from a safe distance). For that matter she can cast 6th and 7th level spells, using a 5th for movement would be a good choice.

Allan Surgite

2009-11-10, 03:28 PM

In addition; in this strip, Vaarsuvius seems to be carrying Durkon and Mr. Scruffy.

Does this pose any significance, for example in the clauses of Overland Flight/Fly that would allow her to carry a dwarf in chainmail while still having a penalty? or she can do it normally. I'm not D&D-savvy, sorry.

Random832

2009-11-10, 03:33 PM

Vargtass

2009-11-10, 04:11 PM

Durkon, an adult male dwarf, weighs at least 134 lb.
Medium full plate armor weighs 50 lb.
No weight is given for a house cat, but as a tiny creature it weighs between 1 and 8 lb.

That's a total of 185 lb (plus V's own equipment).

V must have a STR score of at least 15 to be able to carry that as a heavy load.

If we assume Durkon's shield is a heavy steel shield (or even a heavy wooden shield, also taking into account the 5 pound warhammer), that puts the minimum up to at least 200 - STR 16.

However, V has in the past claimed to have a STR penalty (9 or less), and STR makes little sense to be one of a wizard's good stats.

This is a serious problem since even bull's strength cast off-panel isn't sufficient (and as everyone knows multiple castings don't stack) to go from having a penalty to having a score of 15. I would say maybe he borrowed Roy's belt, except Roy is seen wearing it in every panel.

I would say that the situation counts as V lifting Durkon. A character can lift up to twice his or her maximum load, but only move 5 ft per round. Maximum weight with STR penalty is then 180 lb (STR 9). While this is still incompatible with the 185 lb minimum calculated above, a normal Bull's Strength would allow it.
Actually, under this analysis, assuming a Bull's Strength being used, V's Strength is at least 6 (10 with Bull's Strength), and not more than 9 (STR penalty).

All this would have been valid, if you could actually fly with Fly or Overland Flight while lifting more than your maximum load. Which you can't. My bad. Please ignore the above!

Forbiddenwar

2009-11-10, 04:23 PM

Here's the problem:
From fly spell in D20:
"cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."
was this a mistake ( a DM hand waving away the restriction)?

Overland flight has the same restriction.

So, Greater Bulls Strength? Fly cast on both of them? I don't know.

Edit: Of course this calls into question Xykon Strength. I think I'll have to read the old arguments on that.

Shale

2009-11-10, 04:59 PM

Illven

2009-11-10, 05:14 PM

In comic 671 Hinjo mentions that O-chul and Lien both managed to gain a few levels after the fall of azure city

derfenrirwolv

2009-11-10, 05:40 PM

V, being half camel, qualifies as a quadraped. He can thus carry a heavier load.

minimum weight for a dwarf male is 134 pounds

his plate armor is another 50 pounds for 184 pounds.

a 15 strength would have a 200 pound limit... for a BIPED!

As a quadraped, v would only need a 13 strength.

Harry Tuttle

2009-11-10, 06:16 PM

Well played derfenrirwolv. Well played indeed.

OK, I'm sure this has been brought up before, but... is Haley referencing herself as "Chaotic Good-ish" actually considered evidence of her being Chaotic Good? I mean... seriously? Combined with her describing the definitively CG Elan as being "more our type of people" as opposed to the LG Roy and Durkon, and the fairly cold-blooded (literally if her attack roll was high enough) murder of Crystal, I'd say she's Chaotic Neutral.

Kish

2009-11-10, 06:36 PM

See, if you'd said "Haley said she's Chaotic Good ish" wasn't strong enough evidence compared to her other words and actions, I would--still disagree with you for the examples you provided. Incidentally, what does this part:
fairly cold-blooded (literally if her attack roll was high enough) murder of Crystaleven mean?

Saying it's not evidence at all, though, strikes me as particularly insupportable.

Allan Surgite

2009-11-10, 06:39 PM

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 06:41 PM

Ah, alignments...

The problem with trying to reason out alignments is that their definitions can be rather wooly. As has been seen in a thousand Miko threads, people have different ideas about what actions for which motivations will determine an alignment or change of alignment.

On that note, I don't think "[Character] took this action so (s)he's now [Ethically] [Moral]!" discussions fit the Geekery thread, because as I said, it would be almost impossible to reach an agreement. There will be exceptions to this, of course, because some things can be determined by deed, but my general rule is that I'm gonna leave the question of alignment to either class/ability alignment requisites or either the stated character or someone else in a position to know saying what alignment they are. For example, when the IFCC tell Vaarsuvius "You bring the goods! Or neutral, as the case may be.", I perceive that as their knowing that, on the Moral axis anyway, Vaarsuvius is Neutral.

The flying issue is tricky, because the number crunch'd stats contradict Vaarsuvius' statement as having a strength penalty earlier. This means either Vaarsuvius has gained at least six strength from a source, which is possible but unlikely, or Rich has opted to ignore the encumbrance rules for non-rushed situations. What do my fellow geeks think?

Kish

2009-11-10, 06:42 PM

If Haley was trying to defeat her mental defect by telling the truth to Elan, I doubt saying "Chaotic Good! Ish!", implying she was Chaotic Neutral. As Elan has poor mental stats, it would be a lot simpler to say "I'm not Chaotic Good, I'm Chaotic Neutral". Which is a lot more truthful (and therefore more likely to overcome the mental defect).

In addition, I'm reasonably sure Crystal was Chaotic Evil. Or if not, she is Haley's arch-rival, who she is expected to kill. and as SoD (apparently) showed, killing evil beings is not an evil act.
SoD did not show that.
SoD showed that it is somehow possible for Sapphire Guard paladins to kill goblin children and not fall. Just that. Why that is is extremely debatable.
Crystal strikes me as as Lawful as Durkon; what's she done that's Chaotic?

I'm pretty sure Rich is ignoring the encumbrance rules here.

Shale

2009-11-10, 06:48 PM

Haley's as Chaotic Good as Roy is Lawful Good.

deuxhero

2009-11-10, 06:50 PM

Couldn't Redcloak have 18 wisdom and have Spell Focus:Necromancy (or 17 with greater focus)?

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-10, 06:53 PM

Couldn't Redcloak have 18 wisdom and have Spell Focus:Necromancy (or 17 with greater focus)?

That's theoretically possible, but it assumes more than a high Wisdom. And we've seen that having a stat higher than 20 is pretty common among the cast.

Kish

2009-11-10, 06:54 PM

Be weird if the high priest of the Dark One and the highest-level cleric we know to exist in the OotS universe had a mere 18 Wisdom, yes.

I just noticed something in Redcloak's stats. Do goblins get +4 to Ride checks or to Hide checks?

deuxhero

2009-11-10, 06:59 PM

I know it's unlikely, but it is possible.

Allan Surgite

2009-11-10, 07:32 PM

SoD spoiler;

Let's say these Paladins were Lawful Good, with the goblin children being (by being of the golbin race) Always Chaotic Evil.

Paladins slaughter goblin children, who are presumed Chaotic Evil. The Paladins do not fall; Paladins fall if they commit an evil act. Therefore, killing (even presumably) Evil beings is not Evil, being at the very worst neutral. But I think this might be best carried on in another topic.

If we assume Crystal is Lawful, she is most likely Lawful Evil. Thus, the argument doesn't truly change; a Chaotic Good Haley can kill a Lawful Evil Crystal without experiencing alignment drift.

But as the good ship RMS Oceanic has bid this to be an unwelcome part of his topic, I shall drop the subject. Perhaps we could continue this elsewhere, if we must~?

Kish

2009-11-10, 07:33 PM

SoD spoiler;

Let's say these Paladins were Lawful Good, with the goblin children being (by being of the golbin race) Always Chaotic Evil.
Let's not, and say we did. :smalltongue:

(If you really want to continue this, feel free to start a thread...or post to the "shouldn't Redcloak's alignment be good?" thread if it hasn't fallen out of sight.)

Forbiddenwar

2009-11-10, 07:49 PM

I agree on the alignment issue. Unless there is concrete proof of a character's alignment (like Belkar's, proven by a spell effect, Roy's determined by a being of pure Lawful goodness), or spoken by the word of Giant (who has stated that Belkar's alignment is Choatic Evil, IIRC) the discusion of alignment, by virtue of being vague and fuzzy, doesn't belong in the geekery thread.

Occum's Razor says that the DM (giant, in this case) is hand waving encumburance limits on flying considering the extent of contradictory evidence. At least, that's my humble opinion.

As for Redcloak's wisdom. The best evidence is the spells he casts or their duration. If we can only see him cast a level nine spell, we would know that he has a wisdom of 19.

Dark Matter

2009-11-10, 10:01 PM

The flying issue is tricky, because the number crunch'd stats contradict Vaarsuvius' statement as having a strength penalty earlier. This means either Vaarsuvius has gained at least six strength from a source, which is possible but unlikely, or Rich has opted to ignore the encumbrance rules for non-rushed situations. What do my fellow geeks think?I think he's got +6 somehow. There's no reason Roy couldn't have carried the Dwarf (he's done so many times before, V never has). For that matter there's no reason V couldn't have cast Fly on Durkon and had Durkon carry V up there.

Xykon on the other hand has repeatedly been shown to use Strength for all kinds of things whether or not he's flying.

La Chatte Noire

2009-11-10, 11:15 PM

You forgot Tsukiko's Lich Loved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) feat. And it's prerequisite Evil Brand.

Random832

2009-11-11, 12:01 AM

Flying characters in OotS have repeatedly been shown carrying characters they could not reasonably be expected to lift while standing, so it seems like a safe assumption that in the comic, flying also dramatically increases your carrying capacity.

If that's the case, then the evidence for Sabine's STR is thrown out. Does V have enough unaccounted-for feats to have crafted an item of some kind during the time skip?

Shale

2009-11-11, 12:34 AM

It also explains Celia being able to carry Roy for a prolonged period of time with no visible exertion whatsoever. So yeah, I'd say toss Sabine's 18 STR.

blueblade

2009-11-11, 01:20 AM

We're not a democracy here, but I throw my weight behind this. Rich clearly does not care about encumbrance when it comes to flight. At least out of combat, and possibly not even then.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-11, 02:01 AM

Okay, so the evidence of Sabine and Xykon's strength is tossed.

However, I'm not going to toss the use of flying for Durkon or Thog's strength, because they happened during what can be considered a rushed situation, i.e. combat.

Vargtass

2009-11-11, 02:04 AM

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-11, 02:07 AM

I foresee anew FAQ entry on this...

Your foresight is impressive. :smallsmile:

Kwinza

2009-11-11, 03:35 AM

Hey all, I'd like to call into question Roy's Str score, because wouldnt it now be a minimum of 22 (20 before, maybe with a magic item maybe without) and a max of 26?

Fragenstein

2009-11-11, 06:21 AM

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-11, 06:40 AM

Okay, I'm probably about to get burned for asking this, but after some searching of the forums I'm not seeing anything about Crystal's Knife. Strip #684 shows that Haley kept it, but it's not listed on her writeup.

Am I missing the scene where she ditched it? And I can only imagine that there was mass speculation as to it being an Assassin's Dagger, but I'm not seeing that discussion either.

In the strip where she discovers Tyrannia doesn't exist anymore, she says she sold the "loot she got from Crystal". Until we see that knife again, it's assumed the knife was part of the loot.

sam79

2009-11-11, 07:10 AM

In the strip where she discovers Tyrannia doesn't exist anymore, she says she sold the "loot she got from Crystal". Until we see that knife again, it's assumed the knife was part of the loot.

Ok, we are speculating here, but I think this is a quick conclusion to jump to. When she kills Crystal, she taunts her by saying that the magical jewelry she can't use will be sold at the next available opportunity. (Strip 648) I think we should apply the same logic to the dagger.

Given that she doesn't seen to have a close combat weapon to fall back on (evidenced by her stealing of Elan's rapier to fight Miko with way back in Strip 200, and (if I remember correctly) the Giant's description of the second Miko fight), it seems clear that she could make use of the dagger.

We may make arguments as to why she might want to sell it, despite the fact that it could be useful to her; it's pretty damn ugly and Haley does show some concern about the appearance of her gear; it may count as an Exotic Weapon for which she doesn't have the right feat; it may have Crystal-cooties and she just wants rid of it for personal reasons; and maybe these and other reasons have been discussed before in earlier incarnations of the thread. But I don't think these arguments, or the "loot I got from my rival" line are, enough to remove the dagger from her inventory.

EDIT: Adding reference to Strip 648

Fragenstein

2009-11-11, 07:26 AM

Strip #607 has Crystal describing it as a +4 dagger (so, no, it's not an Assassin's Dagger), which has a listed base price of 32,000 gold. I'm not sure Haley would want a melee weapon she's not optimized to use in place of that much shiny lucre.

I think Oceanic has it right. Until we actually see that she still has it, consider it sold.

sam79

2009-11-11, 07:43 AM

Strip #607 has Crystal describing it as a +4 dagger (so, no, it's not an Assassin's Dagger), which has a listed base price of 32,000 gold. I'm not sure Haley would want a melee weapon she's not optimized to use in place of that much shiny lucre.

Well maybe, but I'm not so sure. She has been converting things to shiny lucre for the specific purpose of paying her father's ransom; anything over that amount does not need, yet, to be converted into readies; it is not like she is in a position to spend it on a life of luxury. If we could show that the dagger's value was needed to make up the ransom total, I'd agree that the dagger is gone. But given that she was intending to keep some of Crystal's other magic items, despite the fact that they too would doubtless yield significant amounts of gold, shows that turning useful magic items into GP is not necessarily what Haley would always do.

Granted she has plenty of magical storage space in her bags of holding, but it would seem sensible to me for her to sell the dagger for 32,000 gold pieces AFTER the quest is over and the world has been saved. In the meantime, the dagger is more useful and is easily portable. Given that Elan is now pretty effective with a rapier (which he wasn't in 200), Haley would be a bit silly to simply nick her man's sword when she wants a back-up weapon, and a +4 dagger would be very useful in a tight spot. And while she is not optimised to use a dagger, she was sufficiently skilled to finish off Crystal herself with it.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-11, 07:59 AM

Well maybe, but I'm not so sure. She has been converting things to shiny lucre for the specific purpose of paying her father's ransom; anything over that amount does not need, yet, to be converted into readies; it is not like she is in a position to spend it on a life of luxury. If we could show that the dagger's value was needed to make up the ransom total, I'd agree that the dagger is gone. But given that she was intending to keep some of Crystal's other magic items, despite the fact that they too would doubtless yield significant amounts of gold, shows that turning useful magic items into GP is not necessarily what Haley would always do.

Granted she has plenty of magical storage space in her bags of holding, but it would seem sensible to me for her to sell the dagger for 32,000 gold pieces AFTER the quest is over and the world has been saved. In the meantime, the dagger is more useful and is easily portable. Given that Elan is now pretty effective with a rapier (which he wasn't in 200), Haley would be a bit silly to simply nick her man's sword when she wants a back-up weapon, and a +4 dagger would be very useful in a tight spot. And while she is not optimised to use a dagger, she was sufficiently skilled to finish off Crystal herself with it.

But she said that after she sold the stuff she got from Crystal, she finally had the 200K she needed. Tactical considerations aside, there's no reason to believe that doesn't include the knife. Yes, the clever roleplayer like you and me would hold on to it, but Haley is not such a person. Besides, it's not like it's the first bad optimizing decision made in this story. *Looks at Belkar's nonexistant ranks in Survival*

sam79

2009-11-11, 08:25 AM

But she said that after she sold the stuff she got from Crystal, she finally had the 200K she needed. Tactical considerations aside, there's no reason to believe that doesn't include the knife. Yes, the clever roleplayer like you and me would hold on to it, but Haley is not such a person. Besides, it's not like it's the first bad optimizing decision made in this story. *Looks at Belkar's nonexistant ranks in Survival*

I can see your point; but we don't know if she needed to sell all the stuff from Crystal (including the useful protective jewellery she referred to), or just some of it, to reach the figure of 200K ready cash. Nor, I suspect, will we be able to know, given how little detail we have of the monetary resources of the party.

Even given how inefficient the party is on some respects (not least the fact that Haley didn't seem to have any sort of back-up weapon until taking the dagger from Crystal), needlessly turning a usable +4 magic weapon into cash would imply Belkar-like levels of foresight! It also seemed to me that the knife was rather prominent in the story; being mentioned specifically several times, as well as being given a specific power level. Not conclusive, of course, but this suggested to me that it was of more significance than the weapon if an NPC that would soon be sold; instead, it was being trailed as the prime melee weapon of one of the PCs.

Vargtass

2009-11-11, 09:47 AM

In comic 671 Hinjo mentions that O-chul and Lien both managed to gain a few levels after the fall of azure city

So this brings Lien to a certain 8+ (at least 6 plus at least 2), and O-Chul is not any more necessarily lower level than Hinjo (who is 11+).

Random832

2009-11-11, 10:29 AM

Hey all, I'd like to call into question Roy's Str score, because wouldnt it now be a minimum of 22 (20 before, maybe with a magic item maybe without) and a max of 26?

If he had a magic item before, the belt likely won't stack with it (but he could easily have a 20 with no magic item at his level)

Kish

2009-11-12, 02:50 AM

Where it gets interesting is when he was "crafting" traps in his fight with Miko.
Craft is Intelligence, not Wisdom.

Dark Matter

2009-11-12, 07:55 AM

Craft is Intelligence, not Wisdom.Good point. I wonder if he's smarter than he is wise?

I can see your point; but we don't know if she needed to sell all the stuff from Crystal (including the useful protective jewellery she referred to), or just some of it, to reach the figure of 200K ready cash. Nor, I suspect, will we be able to know, given how little detail we have of the monetary resources of the party. The issue isn't whether we can prove she sold it. The issue is whether we can prove she *has* it.

There's a strong argument that she has it.
There's a strong argument that she doesn't.
Since we can't prove that she has it, we can't put it down as a possession.

Kurald Galain

2009-11-12, 09:40 AM

Craft is Intelligence, not Wisdom.
And likewise, Belkar being stupid is intelligence, not wisdom.

Congratulations, we've just shown that Belkar has a low intelligence score!

sam79

2009-11-12, 10:59 AM

The issue isn't whether we can prove she sold it. The issue is whether we can prove she *has* it.

There's a strong argument that she has it.
There's a strong argument that she doesn't.
Since we can't prove that she has it, we can't put it down as a possession.

There's a strong argument that she doesn't have it.
There is a stronger (in my view) argument that she does.
Since the 'default' prior to Strip position is 680 is that she has the knife, is the phrase "I sold the loot collected from the defeat of my rival" enough to convince us to make a change to her inventory?

One other point I'd make, having re-read 648; the conversation between Celia and Haley in the final panel suggests that she (Haley) is going to keep the knife to remind her of Crystal. Wouldn't want to put too much weight on what is obviously a joke about talking at crossed purposes, but I still think it lends some support to the idea that the knife is a 'keeper'.

You are right that we can't prove she has it, and I it is surely good for the thread to maintain a pretty strict burden of proof with regard to these things. Even I don't believe my case enough to call it proof positive for possession of the knife! I guess we'll see for certain when Haley is next in a combat situation when she can't use her bow, or needs to cut herself a hunk of cheese!

Mc. Lovin'

2009-11-12, 11:26 AM

I don't see why people argue mental score characteristics with evidence they just assume. Are we going to put Belkar's int at "Highish because he made some traps once"? Nah, cause it's not geekery, it's just opinion

sam79

2009-11-12, 12:37 PM

As of 690 a copy of 'Dune' to be added to Belkar's inventory.

Does reading this sci-fi classic through any light on the debate about his mental faculties? :smallwink:

While we're at it, looks like Roy has a book too, presumably on navigation.

Kish

2009-11-12, 02:23 PM

My perception of the purpose of this thread is, and has been since the first version, to attempt to approximate the stats of the characters in OotS, recognizing that Rich, of course, doesn't have firm stats for them himself (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html) and may contradict us at any time.

If RMS Oceanic wishes to declare that only direct numerical evidence counts, I will drop the subject of Belkar's Wisdom in this thread; I will also redouble my opposition to numbers from this thread being waved around anywhere outside it as they will have nothing to do with the actual characters--I'm not actually sure I can say that, I'm already quite adamant about not treating this as anything more than a fun thought exercise, and 2xinfinity is infinity. :smalltongue: Regardless. As the thread updater, RMS Oceanic has the power to declare what kind of thought exercise this is; if the answer is one I won't enjoy participating in, I'll leave with no hard feelings. I will, however, point out first that "consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight," "very good," "decent," and "moderate" are all subjective interpretations and numbers based on them should likewise be stricken under those rules.

I don't see why people argue mental score characteristics with evidence they just assume.
Citing Belkar demonstrating low self-awareness, common sense, and memory retention, and citing Rich saying that those are what he considers the Wisdom score to represent, does not fall within the definition of an assumption (that would be if I looked at Belkar and said, "That halfling looks like he has a low Wisdom" without reading any of his dialogue). There are ways to argue against such deductions being given weight here which are neither inaccurate nor rude.

Zevox

2009-11-12, 09:57 PM

I just noticed something in Redcloak's stats. Do goblins get +4 to Ride checks or to Hide checks?
Both, actually. Ride from their race, hide from their size.

Zevox

Shale

2009-11-12, 10:06 PM

OotS goblins are Medium-sized, though.

Edit: Speaking of Goblins, does this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) mean Redcloak knows Silent Spell?

Lvl45DM!

2009-11-12, 10:38 PM

Nah there are alot of cases where they cast without saying the spell

Random832

2009-11-12, 11:51 PM

Nah there are alot of cases where they cast without saying the spell

Most of those are actually times where they're about to cast or had just cast the spell and it's a scene timing thing - and they don't have the text there. This one seems different.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-13, 04:41 AM

I will, however, point out first that "consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight," "very good," "decent," and "moderate" are all subjective interpretations and numbers based on them should likewise be stricken under those rules.

Now, I'll concede the "consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight" point, but the other descriptors come from the Giant himself, so I think they should be given weight. Besides, I have another way of calculating Roy's Con, although I concede it's not 100% accurate: The law of averages!

Roy was hit by a Meteor Swarm, i.e. a total of 32 d6 damage. For the sake of this exercise, I'm assuming Xykon actually targeted the dragon with the 8d6 bludgeoning damage, since we're trying to calculate minimum HP without considering scenarios like "all dice rolled a 1". Assuming the average roll of 3.5 for each of the remaining 24d6, that gives us 84 damage. Also, at least one Finger of death was flung at him, so that's another 3d6+25, or 37 damage, rounded up. That gives us a minimum of 122 hitpoints (for he was still conscious after all that). Spread across his 13 levels at the time, that gives us an average of Roy gaining 9hp a level. Subtracting the average roll of a d10, ~5.5, gives us 3.5, i.e. a Constitution modifier of 3-4, i.e. minimum Constitution of 16!

Of course, not everyone may agree with this method of calculation, so I'll leave it for now and let the thread chew over it. In the meantime, I've added Roy and Belkar's new possessions, and updated Roy's strength and Elan's charisma based on their new magic items, with links to their unmodified scores as well.

While doing that, however, I noticed Elan is listed as having Weapon Finesse. I recall Wrecan posted a justification for this, but I can't remember? Does anyone know where Elan demonstrated Weapon Finesse?

Kurald Galain

2009-11-13, 05:19 AM

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-13, 05:27 AM

Do we have a link for why Roy is listed as having "no sense motive"? Or Belkar having 0 ranks in handle animal, listen, or search?

And just a small nitpick, if we take this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) to mean that Belkar has three daggers, we still don't know that all three are magical.

I can't remember listen or search, but Handle Animal was shown in a bonus strip of No Cure For the Paladin Blues, and Roys inability to sense motive was in Origin of PCs.

Kurald Galain

2009-11-13, 05:40 AM

I can't remember listen or search, but Handle Animal was shown in a bonus strip of No Cure For the Paladin Blues, and Roys inability to sense motive was in Origin of PCs.

Okay. Would it be useful to link them to here (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS00.html)?

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-13, 06:24 AM

sam79

2009-11-13, 07:05 AM

Yeah, I'll do that.

But first, using the same law of averages, I will now attempt to determine O-Chul's level!

First, the damage: Disintegrate (either 5d6 or 30d6) + Meteor Swarm (32d6) + Maximized Lightning Bolt (60). My assumptions will be that he made the fortitude save for Disintegrate, but failed the reflex saves for the other spells, seeing how he was hit by them head on and they did eventually floor him, while at the same time he wasn't thrown back by the disintegrate the same way Hinjo was. So that's 37d6 + 60 damage = 190 damage, rounded up.

His constitution is 23-27 ("mid twenties"), so that gives him a modifier of 6-8. Since we're determining his minimum level, I will assume the highest modifier.

So 190, minus the 18 hit points for first level to get 172.

172 divided by 13.5 (Average 5.5 roll on d10 hit dice +8) = 12.7

So by the law of averages, O-Chul is Level 13-14!

If we assume the minimum modifier of +6, it becomes 174 / 11.5 = 15.1, or level 16-17.

I follow the reasoning for both Roy and O-Chul, though would suggest that the variables are too, well, variable to meet the high evidential standards that this thread employs. For what its worth, I would be very surprised if Roy's CON was not around 16; with the possible exception of DEX, I suspect he has pretty decent numbers in all his stats.

As for O-Chul's level; I think it highly likely that he has the Toughness feat, perhaps (if it is allowed in 3.5?) multiple times. This would have the affect of reducing the level needed have the HP total you come up with. I personally doubt that he is a higher level than the PCs, especially as that would mean that Hinjo also is (or at least was) higher level than any of the Order.

hamishspence

2009-11-13, 07:29 AM

It is- several monsters have it multiple times.

There is also Improved Toughness which appears in the MMIII- while not core, I think Rich Burlew might have been involved in it.

Kish

2009-11-13, 10:53 AM

Now, I'll concede the "consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight" point, but the other descriptors come from the Giant himself, so I think they should be given weight.

The words come from Rich. The translations into numbers, not so much (and I twitch a little at "moderate" being translated as "10-12," even aside from the point I'm trying to make here :smalltongue:). That said, I certainly don't believe this thread should avoid any interpretation.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-11-13, 12:44 PM

Okay. Would it be useful to link them to here (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS00.html)?

Then we should also cite Durkon's flask being from here (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html)

AlfredAmeoba

2009-11-14, 11:34 AM

Is durkon's holy symbol necklace the same as his WWTD prayer necklace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html)? Looks like part of the holy symbol one, but idk.

Kish

2009-11-14, 12:02 PM

Xykon mentioned in a No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strip that he knows Draconic, and Redcloak implied that he doesn't.

Forbiddenwar

2009-11-14, 03:47 PM

Xykon mentioned in a No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strip that he knows Draconic, and Redcloak implied that he doesn't.

no, Redcloak doesn't imply that. He implies that perhaps "Gurk" might not be Draconic, but a liguistic offshoot (regional dialect) that changes how the word sounds just enough so that someone who knows Draconic wouldn't recognize it. Just because you know Spanish, doesn't mean you understand Spanglish.

Xykon definitely knows Draconic. Are we keeping track of Languages?

Kurald Galain

2009-11-16, 06:12 AM

You know, it strikes me as silly to have Elan's strength listed as "less than 20", because this is stating the obvious. Based on the lack of evidence, a more logical entry would be "~10 (no evidence)".

I mean, we also know that Durkon's intelligence is less than Vaarsuvius's, but we don't list his int as "less than 23". We also know that Roy's dexterity is less than 50, because it's simply not possible for a character of his level to have that high, but we don't list that as "less than 50" either. Just my $.02

Anyway. Aside from that, Haley's forgery skill is used in OOPC. I'm not sure why V is listed as having ranks in Listen or Spot? The link for V having alchemy skill is probably this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html).

Forbiddenwar

2009-11-17, 12:20 AM

You know, it strikes me as silly to have Elan's strength listed as "less than 20", because this is stating the obvious. Based on the lack of evidence, a more logical entry would be "~10 (no evidence)".

But we do have evidence, he has less strength than Charisma. So that is why it is listed as such. He could have a 19 strength for all we know, nothing shows otherwise.

I mean, we also know that Durkon's intelligence is less than Vaarsuvius's, but we don't list his int as "less than 23".

Maybe we should, how do we know this? Not from the brain eater, that's for sure (see FAQ)

We also know that Roy's dexterity is less than 50, because it's simply not possible for a character of his level to have that high, but we don't list that as "less than 50" either. Just my $.02

Some munchkins may disagree with this. Roy's Dex is as high as it needs to be, as the plot needs it to be. D&D/=OOTS. So, what evidence is there in the strip that Roy has less than 50 Dex?

Anyway. Aside from that, Haley's forgery skill is used in OOPC. I'm not sure why V is listed as having ranks in Listen or Spot? The link for V having alchemy skill is probably this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html).

V is listed with +2 in listen and spot (not ranks) due to her familar. And wouldn't that be Craft (alchemy)?:smallwink: The comic doesn't show that V has any training in craft(alchemy) because it is a untrained skill (she can still make a check, even if she has no ranks in it.

Dusk Eclipse

2009-11-17, 11:03 PM

Congratulations, we've just shown that Belkar has a low intelligence score!

Roy mentions that Belkar "is inteligent in his own brain damaged way"
Besides I know people that have booksmarts (Inteligence), but can't take a good decision based on anything besides facts (Wisdom by what I understand IE taking everything into consideration).

So Belkar might have an average intelligence score

HotAndCold

2009-11-18, 01:44 AM

Belkar's clever in his own twisted, immature way, he's lacking in foresight, and he's more or less fundamentally incapable of understanding that other creatures have the right to live, etc., etc. but there's simply no way to come up with any sort of concrete, objective number from that, and concrete, objective numbers are what this thread is about.

The mental scores are, by nature, tied to personality and thus pretty subjective and flexible. We can make generalizations, sure. V has high Int and not so high Wis, Elan has high Cha and lacking Wis and Int, Roy has pretty decent-to-high scores for all three, etc., etc., etc. But unless numbers or more specific ranges get mentioned, it's all about overall averages and that's not too solid and not too citable, for that matter.

I'm sure we can all agree that Belkar's not too book-smart and not too big on common sense, but translating that into numbers is something else entirely. But I don't think we can definitively prove that he has less-than-average Int.

Then again, all things considered, I don't think anybody would buy it for a minute that he could have higher than average Int, so saying that he has less than or equal to 10 instead of approximately 10 might be a compromise to consider?

Kurald Galain

2009-11-18, 07:03 AM

So Belkar might have an average intelligence score

He might, yes.

My point is that some people argue that they don't like Belkar and therefore he has low stats, and that that's really not a valid argument.

Kish

2009-11-18, 11:23 AM

He might, yes.

My point is that some people argue that they don't like Belkar and therefore he has low stats, and that that's really not a valid argument.
Why, whoever would you be referring to?

If it's me, you'd better be able to produce a post where I've said that I don't like Belkar and therefore he has low Wisdom (and other stats, actually), instead of pointing to his actions as specific examples of low Wisdom (and just Wisdom; you're the only person I've ever seen argue that his examples of low Wisdom are actually examples of low Intelligence, an argument which I would give a great deal more weight if it didn't disappear except when you were denying that he shows low Wisdom). He has no ability to notice things, dedication, common sense, or self-awareness; he called himself a brain-dead moron (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) without ever realizing that was what he was saying; he is unable to resist the urge for mindless destruction even when it nearly gets him killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html); he has no short-term memory; he knows his Wisdom is less than Miko's without asking, though having seen her combat abilities he could easily suspect she used it as a dump stat; both Roy and Vaarsuvius have commented on his lack of mental ability in general terms (and Rich once said he has a "low" Wisdom, though unfortunately that post is no longer searchable).

Liking or not liking Belkar is one thing. Observing that he's the poster-boy for "how to play a character without Wisdom" is unrelated. I like Elan. That wouldn't make suggesting he has average-to-high Intelligence and/or Wisdom any less laughable.

Shadic

2009-11-20, 02:04 AM

I don't know why, but my stuff here always gets ignored.

In this post, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) The Giant says:

Belkar drops to -4 before he gets to rage. Even that last d12 HD can't make up for 11 levels of d8+Con.
Implying pretty heavily that Belkar has at least some of a Con bonus.

O-Chul was able to run full speed, and what looks like make his Reflex save against a Meteor Swarm, while he was carrying Vaarsuvius.

Wouldn't that put his strength above 10?

Repeated again. Wouldn't it put him at at least 14, similar to Durkon?

This will likely get ignored AGAIN in favor of more stupid dramallama, which is always annoying.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-20, 02:21 AM

I don't know why, but my stuff here always gets ignored.

This will likely get ignored AGAIN in favor of more stupid dramallama, which is always annoying.

First of all, I wasn't in charge at the time. Second, you haven't posted in a Geekery thread since June.

Can you please explain the numbers about how O-Chul has 14 strength?

Wrecan

2009-11-20, 07:23 AM

And when I was in charge, I wasn't tracking O-Chul's stats, and the guy who was hadn't updated them since well before June.

Forbiddenwar

2009-11-20, 07:52 PM

Re: Belkar: No. It means that Hit points are calculated by a die plus the con modifier. Just like in D&D. Even if it is a negative modier, you still add it.
For example: 1d8+CON means 5(1d8 (class)) + (-2 Con)= 3 hit points.

Re Ochul:Assuming you are referring to this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html

A) How do you know he is running at full speed? Looks like 20 feet a round to me. (carrying a heavy load)
B) He is not carrying V when he makes the save against the meteor storm
C) V is at most 100 pounds, which is doable with 10 str.
D) I'm not even sure he is carrying V. it looks like he just pulled V out of range of Xykon, and V was able to walk from there (getting up while in threatened area, bad idea.)

Jagos

2009-11-20, 08:16 PM

Why, whoever would you be referring to?

If it's me, you'd better be able to produce a post where I've said that I don't like Belkar and therefore he has low Wisdom (and other stats, actually), instead of pointing to his actions as specific examples of low Wisdom (and just Wisdom; you're the only person I've ever seen argue that his examples of low Wisdom are actually examples of low Intelligence, an argument which I would give a great deal more weight if it didn't disappear except when you were denying that he shows low Wisdom). He has no ability to notice things, dedication, common sense, or self-awareness; he called himself a brain-dead moron (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) without ever realizing that was what he was saying; he is unable to resist the urge for mindless destruction even when it nearly gets him killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html); he has no short-term memory; he knows his Wisdom is less than Miko's without asking, though having seen her combat abilities he could easily suspect she used it as a dump stat; both Roy and Vaarsuvius have commented on his lack of mental ability in general terms (and Rich once said he has a "low" Wisdom, though unfortunately that post is no longer searchable).

Liking or not liking Belkar is one thing. Observing that he's the poster-boy for "how to play a character without Wisdom" is unrelated. I like Elan. That wouldn't make suggesting he has average-to-high Intelligence and/or Wisdom any less laughable.

I don't know if you still can, but Giant's posting of the second Miko fight is still valid.

His Wisdom score is abysmal since he has no save against Miko's attacks.

derfenrirwolv

2009-11-20, 11:50 PM

I don't know if you still can, but Giant's posting of the second Miko fight is still valid.

His Wisdom score is abysmal since he has no save against Miko's attacks.

well, it was SUPPOSED to be a fort save, but oh well.

Shadic

2009-11-21, 01:47 AM

Re: Belkar: No. It means that Hit points are calculated by a die plus the con modifier. Just like in D&D. Even if it is a negative modier, you still add it.
For example: 1d8+CON means 5(1d8 (class)) + (-2 Con)= 3 hit points.
That's the ultimate case of pedantics. It's should be quite obvious from how The Giant words it that it's not a negative.

Jagos

2009-11-21, 02:32 AM

well, it was SUPPOSED to be a fort save, but oh well.

The Stunning Kick?

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-11-21, 12:08 PM

That's the ultimate case of pedantics. It's should be quite obvious from how The Giant words it that it's not a negative.Actually, it isn't. You always write it as +, even when it's a negative. It could easily be that Belkar has a - to Con, and that's part of the reason he hit negatives so quickly.

Jagos

2009-11-21, 04:38 PM

Actually, it isn't. You always write it as +, even when it's a negative. It could easily be that Belkar has a - to Con, and that's part of the reason he hit negatives so quickly.

What he's meaning is that people are so interested in such a minute detail, that they're arguing over THAT rather than what needs to be argued.

I mean really... Why argue over whether to put it as a negative modifier rather than why he has a Con bonus in the first place?

It's like shooting the forest for the trees.

Shadic

2009-11-21, 05:22 PM

Exactly. I mean, we have Miko listed as 12+ Con simply because it seems likely, and that she has a high damage capacity. Belkar is also a melee warrior that I believe has only been downed by Miko in-comic.
Really, does this look like low damage-taking capability? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) I think not.

I'll do some basic math of the Miko fight, as well:
Belkar's average HP without a con bonus: 56.

Damage taken:
Stunning Kick/Fist attacks, which (I believe, I don't do Monk) would be 1D6+1 (Strength). She hits with three of these.
Average damage: 13.5

Miko's Katana (Aiming low here) is VERY likely at least a +2 Katana, and she's got +1 strength score anyways, so each hit is doing 2D6+3. She hits once with this.
Average damage: 10

Miko's Wakizashi (Counted as a Ninja-to here) is probably at least +2 as well, again, +1 strength, so each hit is doing 1D6+3. She hits twice with this.
Average damage: 13.

The Giant flat-out SAYS Belkar takes at least 30 Smite Evil damage.
Let's see: 13.5+10+13+30 = 66.5 damage on average.

Belkar ends up at -4 HP at the end of this.

Yes, this is assuming average rolls, but then again, we're assuming Miko only has 13 strength as a 14-16 primary Melee fighter, pretty horrid weapons, no critical hits, etc. We also have Roy listed at 16 con based off the events of the same fight.

Trixie

2009-11-23, 08:53 AM

Out of curiosity - what's that spell in 690? Summon Clock? :smallconfused:

Istari

2009-11-23, 03:51 PM

I believe Redcloak has black armor on. In SoD he makes a joke about his name being a reference to him wearing black armor which wouldn't make much sense if he wasn't wearing black armor.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-11-23, 05:54 PM

It was a sarcastic joke aimed at whoever he was insulting.

derfenrirwolv

2009-11-23, 10:44 PM

The Stunning Kick?

Yup

You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

note that, despite the name, it can be made with any unarmed attack; fist foot headbut elbow etc.

Yendor

2009-11-28, 02:40 PM

V has True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html).

SaintRidley

2009-11-28, 05:37 PM

serves me right for not reading the most recent post. Ignore this.

Vargtass

2009-11-28, 05:44 PM

The last strip makes it increasingly probable that V has Overland Flight. While it is obviously not outside the realm of possiblility that V cast Fly outside panel both before and after the Order's trip to Girad's gate (which took hours, according to Durkon), the casual remark from V (We will do likewise from the sky) and then not casting a Fly spell, really indicates that V can now be expected to fly as arule, i e Overland Flight.

silvadel

2009-11-28, 06:11 PM

Xykon has a strength bonus. [SoD justification]

Page 72 of SoD he is shown flying while carrying Redcloak, Right Eye, Zombie Lirian, and a few roaches. Plus it is consistant with page 22 where he beats Fyron to death with the Wizzy award (with no bonus it wouldnt have done much in the way of damage at all).

Trixie

2009-11-28, 06:24 PM

Then again, all things considered, I don't think anybody would buy it for a minute that he could have higher than average Int, so saying that he has less than or equal to 10 instead of approximately 10 might be a compromise to consider?

And just why not?

He can easily have 12-14, nothing so far prevents it.

silvadel

2009-11-28, 07:12 PM

Belkar had an OOTS reference where he said he wasnt the brightest torch in the dungeon.

lord_khaine

2009-11-28, 07:18 PM

It was a sarcastic joke aimed at whoever he was insulting.

That makes a lot more sense if he is wearing black armor.

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-29, 07:02 AM

V has True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html).

Added.

Xykon has a strength bonus. [SoD justification]

Page 72 of SoD he is shown flying while carrying Redcloak, Right Eye, Zombie Lirian, and a few roaches. Plus it is consistant with page 22 where he beats Fyron to death with the Wizzy award (with no bonus it wouldnt have done much in the way of damage at all).

Please see the FAQ about working out Strength based on flight encumbrance.

Belkar had an OOTS reference where he said he wasnt the brightest torch in the dungeon.

This is far too vague to glean stats from.

Vargtass

2009-11-29, 07:25 AM

And what about the increased evidence for Overland Filght? (See above)

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-29, 07:34 AM

And what about the increased evidence for Overland Filght? (See above)

It's not about what you know, it's what you can prove. [/Law Abiding Citizen]

I'm keeping Wrecan's previous line of we need proof that V has been flying nonstop between panels.

SinsI

2009-11-29, 08:12 AM

It's not about what you know, it's what you can prove. [/Law Abiding Citizen]

I'm keeping Wrecan's previous line of we need proof that V has been flying nonstop between panels.

We can see that V is flying very often with no indication that he re-casts a low-level Fly spell. We also know that this world has Overland Flight, that he is of a level sufficiently high to cast it and that he has visited magic stores numerous times since attaining that level (and with enough cash).

I'd say he certainly has it unless all the spells are sold in those booster packs.

silvadel

2009-11-29, 12:28 PM

We can still determine strength for this situation if it happens inside combat or a similar hurried scenario.

Ok I saw the faq and that is what I saw ^

If escaping a raging forest fire doesnt count as a hurried scenario -- especially where it literally shows them all clinging to his feet as he flies away -- then I dont know what is.

As for the belkar reference that was rebutting the person above who was trying to claim belks could have a 14 intelligence -- in view of his statement I sincerely doubt he could.

Fitzclowningham

2009-11-29, 03:33 PM

If Haley is lvl 15 and has 12+ intelligence, she has at least 162 skill points: 1st level = ((8 + ≥1) * 4)) + (14 * ≥ 9).

RMS Oceanic

2009-11-30, 03:44 AM

Adding Haley's Trowel and Metal Detector to her possessions.

We can see that V is flying very often with no indication that he re-casts a low-level Fly spell. We also know that this world has Overland Flight, that he is of a level sufficiently high to cast it and that he has visited magic stores numerous times since attaining that level (and with enough cash).

I'd say he certainly has it unless all the spells are sold in those booster packs.

But every time we see Vaarsuvius flying, time has elapsed since we last saw h** do it. Until we see h** flying uninterrupted for 20 minutes or so, or (s)he tells how long (s)he's been flying, then (s)he may be that wasteful of spell slots.

I know it's almost certain, but almost doesn't cut it.

We can still determine strength for this situation if it happens inside combat or a similar hurried scenario.

Ok I saw the faq and that is what I saw ^

If escaping a raging forest fire doesnt count as a hurried scenario -- especially where it literally shows them all clinging to his feet as he flies away -- then I dont know what is.

They're clinging to his feet because, despite his mighty magicks, he only has two hands. Besides, the battle was over, and they were discussing what their next course of action was before they left the forest.

Vargtass

2009-11-30, 05:12 AM

But every time we see Vaarsuvius flying, time has elapsed since we last saw h** do it. Until we see h** flying uninterrupted for 20 minutes or so, or (s)he tells how long (s)he's been flying, then (s)he may be that wasteful of spell slots.

I know it's almost certain, but almost doesn't cut it.

Alright...
From 691 we have V stating that "they will search from the sky", to be followed directly by the two first panels of 692, where more than 20 minutes clearly passes, as indicated by the daylight to night shift.
I argue this is proof of Overland Flight on V's part, even though it is a montage sequence...

Teddy

2009-11-30, 05:39 AM

Alright...
From 691 we have V stating that "they will search from the sky", to be followed directly by the two first panels of 692, where more than 20 minutes clearly passes, as indicated by the daylight to night shift.
I argue this is proof of Overland Flight on V's part, even though it is a montage sequence...

V could have prepared several uses of fly as well...

Lvl45DM!

2009-11-30, 06:53 AM

Add a treasure chest to Elan

Ozymandias9

2009-11-30, 10:29 AM

It's not about what you know, it's what you can prove. [/Law Abiding Citizen]

I'm keeping Wrecan's previous line of we need proof that V has been flying nonstop between panels.

If we take panel 8 of 692 as V Transing, (which is it seems to be to me, at least), then it would seem the flight lasts long enough for those purposes (i.e. a duration of at least 4 hours).

This would seem a good measure of eliminating off panel casting (unless of course we assume s/he floats down mid trance): the action V is taking internal to that panel precludes recasting for a time exceeding the duration of a fly spell.

Pip

2009-11-30, 04:01 PM

Add a treasure chest to Elan

He tripped over something and said it was a treasure chest. We never saw it though, so it could have been something else.

On the other hand, Durkon clearly has at least 8 prayer candles.

sam79

2009-11-30, 07:01 PM

Also, Haley now has a cactus flower in her possession, skilfully won for her by her brave and romantic Dashing Swordsman.

Joerg

2009-12-01, 12:27 PM

If we take panel 8 of 692 as V Transing, (which is it seems to be to me, at least), then it would seem the flight lasts long enough for those purposes (i.e. a duration of at least 4 hours).

V has done that already once way back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html.

Ozymandias9

2009-12-01, 02:10 PM

V has done that already once way back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html.

Drat, oh well.

Random832

2009-12-01, 02:13 PM

V has done that already once way back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html.

So it was evidence then, too. That was after she got new spells in Azure City, right?

Kish

2009-12-01, 02:14 PM

Does Overland Flight actually let one fly while trancing?

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-01, 04:12 PM

Does Overland Flight actually let one fly while trancing?

No. Artistic License at work here.

Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking

Kzickas

2009-12-01, 05:21 PM

No. Artistic License at work here.

Or V is a sleep walker

Kish

2009-12-01, 05:21 PM

Then there's no reason to associate Vaarsuvius floating when s/he trances with Overland Flight.

Ozymandias9

2009-12-01, 06:46 PM

Yeah, given the fact that it isn't new (and V wasn't regularly flying in the period when it first came up), it doesn't seem to indicate overland flight. It simply caught my eye that she was able to stay afloat while transing, which takes significantly longer than the duration of a flight spell. I didn't follow the line of reasoning all the way through.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-01, 11:38 PM

Or V is a sleep walker

:smallconfused: V is an Elf. Elves can't sleep. Ergo, no elf can sleep walk.

Dusk Eclipse

2009-12-01, 11:39 PM

:smallconfused: V is an Elf. Elves can't sleep. Ergo, no elf can sleep walk.

Trance-walker then?

Gitman00

2009-12-07, 03:50 PM

Out of curiosity, what's the rationale for Xykon being level 27+? The linked comic shows him using a 12th-level spell slot for the Maximized Energy Drain, but he'd only need to be 25th level for that, right?

Douglas

2009-12-07, 03:57 PM

Maximized Energy Drain could actually be done at level 24. What requires level 27 is the total number of epic feats listed for Xykon. Epic Spellcasting, Epic Skill Focus, and Improved Spell Capacity x3 is 5 epic feats, and a single class Sorcerer doesn't get his 5th epic feat until level 27. Epic Skill Focus is not strictly necessary, but most alternative means of meeting the spellcraft DC to cast Superb Dispelling require him to be even higher level or to be using far more cheese than is usually used in the comic. Even if Epic Skill Focus were crossed off the list, a Sorcerer's 4th epic feat comes at level 26.

Vargtass

2009-12-10, 08:42 AM

V has Arcane Sight.

Kurald Galain

2009-12-10, 10:21 AM

V has Arcane Sight.

Also, Elan has a silly drawing.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-10, 12:09 PM

Roy's Armour showed up as Magical under V's Arcane sight. I take "pink lines" as magical because his body did not become pink while being in the gaze

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-10, 12:25 PM

I dunno, assuming pink = magic isn't a clearcut way of determining the armour's abilities. Maybe the spell doesn't pinken organic material.

The spell and drawing are in, though.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-10, 02:11 PM

Okay well ... This is still based on colour observations, but the sword (which we know has magical properties) turned black on the inside, as did the armour, despite not being the same colour usually.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-10, 04:43 PM

Roy's belt, armor and sword changed colors when percieved by Arcane Sight. We know that the belt and the sword are magical, and that is the only only common properties they have.

While the sword and armor is made of metal, the belt is leather:

Belt of Giant Strength
This wide belt is made of thick leather and studded with iron.

Also, Arcane Sight only detects magical auras (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ArcaneSight.htm)

It does NOT distinguish between people and items.

Erdo, I think we must conclude that Roy's Armor is Magical

hamishspence

2009-12-10, 04:52 PM

Roy's boots not changing colour, might be a good control- item that isn't magical, so shows no noticable colour change.

Thus, it does seem plausible.

Fitzclowningham

2009-12-10, 04:53 PM

Indeed, I believe you're right. Especially because his boots, also of leather, (#693 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), panel 4) showed no change at all.

Edit: Ninja'd!

Edit 2: By the same logic, V's robes and cape are both non-magical, courtesy of Blackwing in panel 1.

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-10, 07:16 PM

Tiny nitpick because I have nothing useful to add. In the first post it says Roy's Int is 14-18, but lower than V's. If V had exactly 18 Int in the Mind-Flayer strip, shouldn't Roy's maximum be 17?

As I said it's minuscule and probably easily refutable, but there you go.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-11, 01:51 PM

Asta Kask

2009-12-11, 02:11 PM

Mr Scruffy is not Belkar's animal companion. Belkar is Mr Scruffy's humanoid companion.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-12, 01:29 AM

Technically B could still be using True Seeing

EDIT: Nvm he can also see the ... triangle thing

just curious, you mean envelope?

John.

2009-12-12, 04:49 AM

According to strip 693 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) it seems to me that Roy might be wearing magic armor.

Vaarsuvius' Arcane Sight shows Roy's sword in a distinct matter, which we all know is pretty much magically enhanced. The same pattern is laid on his armor. V's clothing on the other hand remains in the same colors under Arcane Sight, which might be indicated as being not magic.

Although it still remains to figure out the bonuses on Roy's tincan.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-12, 06:47 AM

just curious, you mean envelope?

I guess? I mean the "inactive spell" whatever it is

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-12, 03:16 PM

John.

2009-12-13, 07:47 AM

Yes, this is discussed in depth on page 5 of the thread.

Crud. Damn those more-than-one-page threads. Nevermind then.

Trixie

2009-12-15, 02:17 PM

Porthos

2009-12-15, 02:29 PM

So... What might be Girard's other class(es)?

Illusionist suggests 2nd edition, but they seem to be from the 3rd (Ranger wasn't in 2nd, right?).

Possibly something that doesn't interfere with dual-wielding and armor (694) - Bard? Beguiler? Duskblade?

Ranger was in 2nd. But unless he went "Dual Class" he couldn't pick up the levels of Ranger that he was describing. And even if he did, he couldn't start rasing levels in Illusionst again once he was done with his two levels of Ranger.

So it looks like Girard was always a 3rd edition character (which makes sense given the apparent nuking of the "past was previous editions" idea).

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-15, 02:38 PM

So... What might be Girard's other class(es)?

Illusionist suggests 2nd edition, but they seem to be from the 3rd (Ranger wasn't in 2nd, right?).

Possibly something that doesn't interfere with dual-wielding and armor (694) - Bard? Beguiler? Duskblade?

Specialist Wizard, Illusion focussed Sorcerer, perhaps Beguiler. Has to be something qualifying for Epic Spellcasting. Any Illusion friendly PrCs?

Porthos

2009-12-15, 02:51 PM

Don't Split the Party Spoilers:

Elan has an Aquaman costume (with both hook and water hand accessories).
Elan also has an Opera Book called "Roy: the Life and Death of a Totally Cool Guy", which is a five-act Rock Opera that Elan wrote and composed.
Lien has five grams of octopus powder (narc evidence) and a ring that allows her to breathe underwater.
Crystal is seen making a successful Death Attack (hey, there's been debates about it - so I thought it was worthy of comment. :smalltongue:)
Bozzok has a (now cut) rope.

Probably other stuff I missed, but that's the immediate stuff I found.

Gitman00

2009-12-15, 03:08 PM

Specialist Wizard, Illusion focussed Sorcerer, perhaps Beguiler. Has to be something qualifying for Epic Spellcasting. Any Illusion friendly PrCs?

I would virtually guarantee that it's Wizard: Illusionist 21+, Ranger 2. Redcloak tells us here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) that Girard was capable of some of the most powerful illusions ever devised, which screams to me "Epic Level Primary Caster". Sorcerer is possible, but Wizard is far more likely, especially since Shojo calls him an illusionist here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). If he was a Sorcerer, I think Shojo would have called him a sorcerer. Not perfectly conclusive, admittedly, but very likely. I also don't think Beguiler is a viable option for epic-level spellcasting.

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-15, 03:25 PM

I would virtually guarantee that it's Wizard: Illusionist 21+, Ranger 2. Redcloak tells us here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) that Girard was capable of some of the most powerful illusions ever devised, which screams to me "Epic Level Primary Caster". Sorcerer is possible, but Wizard is far more likely, especially since Shojo calls him an illusionist here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). If he was a Sorcerer, I think Shojo would have called him a sorcerer. Not perfectly conclusive, admittedly, but very likely. I also don't think Beguiler is a viable option for epic-level spellcasting.

Actually it is (9th Level Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting)).

Although we al know he's a Wizard, I was just providing the options. The real question is what schools did he prohibit?

Porthos

2009-12-15, 04:09 PM

Possibly something that doesn't interfere with dual-wielding and armor (694) - Bard? Beguiler? Duskblade?

In the Arms and Equiment Guide (3e) there is an Armor Type that reduces the Arcane Spell Failure rate by 20% (which means he could wear up to a Chain Shirt and still be groovy). I don't have it on hand, so I can't remember the exact name of the Armor Type, but Girard could be using that.

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-15, 04:14 PM

In the Arms and Equiment Guide (3e) there is an Armor Type that reduces the Arcane Spell Failure rate by 20% (which means he could wear up to a Chain Shirt and still be groovy). I don't have it on hand, so I can't remember the exact name of the Armor Type, but Girard could be using that.

Does he wear armour?

Porthos

2009-12-15, 04:19 PM

Does he wear armour?

It looks like he is wearing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) a chain shirt of some sort (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). But it's kinda hard to tell with the fuzzyness of the crayon art and the transperancy of the illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html).

Could just be a greyish shirt, I suppose.

EDIT:::

Actually, after looking at Elan's Chain Shirt, what Girard is wearing looks more like a vest than anything else.

hamishspence

2009-12-15, 04:22 PM

Porthos

2009-12-15, 04:23 PM

Blended quartz? Would be an interesting option- a shirt with every link being hardened quartz crystal.

That was it, thanks. Twas a particular favorite of my casters who wanted to go off the beaten tracks. Even if it was expensive and heavier* to wear.

* in generic weight terms, not in terms of light/medium/heavy armor. :smallwink:

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-15, 04:41 PM

That was it, thanks. Twas a particular favorite of my casters who wanted to go off the beaten tracks. Even if it was expensive and heavier* to wear.

* in generic weight terms, not in terms of light/medium/heavy armor. :smallwink:

I've got a high level Mystic Theurge in play atm, may need to look that up.

Also reposting my original point coz I never got an answer: In the OP, shouldn't Roy's max int range be 17, because V has a minimum of 18?

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-15, 05:16 PM

I've got a high level Mystic Theurge in play atm, may need to look that up.

Also reposting my original point coz I never got an answer: In the OP, shouldn't Roy's max int range be 17, because V has a minimum of 18?

No, Becasue V's Int at minimum is 19. So, Roy ,at most, has a Int of 18. According to the OP that is.

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-15, 05:23 PM

No, Becasue V's Int at minimum is 19. So, Roy ,at most, has a Int of 18. According to the OP that is.

Cr*p....:smallredface:

Though in my defence I originally accepted that it was trivial and probably stupid.

monomer

2009-12-16, 12:50 PM

Looks like we can add a tiny shovel and a bucket (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) to Belkar's inventory.

OmegaDonut

2009-12-17, 01:00 AM

So... are holiday cards canon?

Because if so, we can add
Tenser's Floating Disk
to V's spell list.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-17, 02:09 AM

So... are holiday cards canon?

Because if so, we can add
Tenser's Floating Disk
to V's spell list.

no. forehead slap

OmegaDonut

2009-12-18, 03:13 PM

no. forehead slap

Yeah, well, the Dragon comics are considered canon enough for the thread. Do you have a particular reason why holiday cards doesn't meet that same standard for canoninity?

In any case, V casts Stinking Cloud in an undisputably canon DCF bonus strip. It's not listed on the front page yet.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-18, 03:34 PM

Yeah, well, the Dragon comics are considered canon enough for the thread. Do you have a particular reason why holiday cards doesn't meet that same standard for canoninity?

In any case, V casts Stinking Cloud in an undisputably canon DCF bonus strip. It's not listed on the front page yet.

To be honest, I really don't know what is to be considered canon. I think that is up to Oceanic. I am expressing an opinion when I say that I don't think that the cards, ornaments, t-shirts or dragon magazines should be considered canon.

But if they are then we need to add a dragon to Roy's equipment.

Edit: why is flask red under Durkon's equipment? It was in WaXPs.
Yet another edit: What hasn't Roy's armor been changed to magic armor?

Vargtass

2009-12-19, 02:14 PM

Roy's armor is magic by analogy. It is shown with a similar effect as his sword and belt under V's Arcane Eye.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-19, 02:37 PM

Roy's armor is magic by analogy. It is shown with a similar effect as his sword and belt under V's Arcane Eye.

yes, as we discussed at length on page 5. but I guess Oceanic is busy and hasn't gotten around to changing the original post yet.

DarklingPerhaps

2009-12-19, 04:20 PM

I think the Dragon magazines should be considered as canon as the extra comics in the published books. For example Belkar the chef was first shown in Dragon and then eventually in the online comic.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-19, 10:42 PM

I think the Dragon magazines should be considered as canon as the extra comics in the published books. For example Belkar the chef was first shown in Dragon and then eventually in the online comic.

Come to think of it, we can account for every second of time since the order of the stick come together by canon materials. If we accept the Dragon strips as canon, then we cannot accept On the Orgin of PCs as canon, which Rich says it is.

In the dragon strips, they are in different locations with different missions than the online or printed strips. So, what is canon? The online strips OR the Dragon magazine. Because you can't have it both ways. They contradict each other.

CasESenSITItiVE

2009-12-20, 12:06 AM

you have V's barred school as necromancy, and yet apparently s/he can cast vampiric touch...

EDIT: also, Xykon needs a 34+ cha to cast a 12th level spell (maximised energy drain)

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-20, 12:37 AM

Your arguments swayed me: Roy's Armor is magical. :smallsmile:

In the dragon strips, they are in different locations with different missions than the online or printed strips. So, what is canon? The online strips OR the Dragon magazine. Because you can't have it both ways. They contradict each other.

For any possessions seen in Dragon Magazine, I agree. However, the characters seen in Dragon are exactly the same characters seen online, and so should have the same abilities. For spells/feats/what have you, I see no reason to exclude them.

you have V's barred school as necromancy, and yet apparently s/he can cast vampiric touch...

EDIT: also, Xykon needs a 34+ cha to cast a 12th level spell (maximised energy drain)

1. (S)he didn't cast it, (s)he just said it was in h** spellbook, and there are two explainations: Either it's because that was an early comic and Rich hadn't solidified Vaarsuvius' permitted schools; or Vaarsuvius had it in h** book in Third Edition, where (s)he only banned one school, which we know was conjuration, and (s)he "forgot" to drop any necromancy spells from h** book when the update hit.

2. I assume your reasoning is that 34 Charisma is a +12 modifier, which would give you a bonus 12th level spell slot. You are misreading improved spell capacity, which gives you a free spell slot of your new spell level, and Xykon only needs 22 charisma to cast 12th level spells.

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-12-20, 12:42 AM

you have V's barred school as necromancy, and yet apparently s/he can cast vampiric touch...Another possible explanation is that she got it, perhaps in one of the spell booster packs, and just has it in her book to trade rather than because she can cast it.

CasESenSITItiVE

2009-12-20, 12:46 AM

.

2. I assume your reasoning is that 34 Charisma is a +12 modifier, which would give you a bonus 12th level spell slot. You are misreading improved spell capacity, which gives you a free spell slot of your new spell level, and Xykon only needs 22 charisma to cast 12th level spells.

whoops! that's right

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-20, 04:38 AM

Looks like we can add a tiny shovel and a bucket (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) to Belkar's inventory.

Also this, RMS, unless we arent counting obvious joke items but then we'd have to get rid of a load off the list as well

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-20, 06:00 AM

Oops, forgot that one. :smallredface:

OmegaDonut

2009-12-20, 11:08 AM

So... are holiday cards canon?

Because if so, we can add
Tenser's Floating Disk
to V's spell list.

and

In any case, V casts Stinking Cloud in an undisputably canon DCF bonus strip. It's not listed on the front page yet.

got missed in the whole debate about Dragon comic\holiday card canoninity.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-20, 04:46 PM

and

got missed in the whole debate about Dragon comic\holiday card canoninity.

no, the holiday card post didn't get missed in the canon discussion. It started the canon discussion. It is really up to Oceanic if he wants to include all the items, spells and feats from all the christmas cards, ornaments, t-shirts, mugs and everything else Rich sells on this thread. If he wants to do all that extra work, more power to him.

If so, MitD has several christmas lights, and I think Xykon has a zombie santa

OmegaDonut

2009-12-20, 09:39 PM

no, the holiday card post didn't get missed in the canon discussion. It started the canon discussion. It is really up to Oceanic if he wants to include all the items, spells and feats from all the christmas cards, ornaments, t-shirts, mugs and everything else Rich sells on this thread. If he wants to do all that extra work, more power to him.

If so, MitD has several christmas lights, and I think Xykon has a zombie santa

I'm operating under the assumption that if he missed V knowing Stinking Cloud (from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, an undisputably canon source) in the same post, then he missed the others, too.

Forbiddenwar

2009-12-20, 11:21 PM

In SOD, Xykon is described having a power supply of 16d12 continuous duty and overload followers of 12d8 intermittent duty. Is there any way to translate this to levels under 3.0 rules? It would appear that Xykon had either 16 character levels prior to beating Lirian, which seems low (since he was casting energy drains), or 28 character levels, which seem high (and wouldn't they all be d12s then?). So, help me figure it out. or am I over thinking it?

My only guess it that its a typo and Rich intended to say 8d12 instead of 12d8, putting Xykon at 24 before beating Lirian.

SavageWombat

2009-12-21, 09:25 AM

Soranar

2009-12-23, 05:49 AM

hamishspence

2009-12-23, 07:10 AM

More of a move from Chaotic Stupid + Stupid Evil, to a more cunning Chaotic Evil.

Kurald Galain

2009-12-23, 08:28 AM

Is Belkar still chaotic?

Assuming that "lawful" means that somebody cares about laws, rules, and the society as a whole, and that "chaotic" means that somebody cares about the individual, freedom, and himself, then yes, Belkar is most definitely still chaotic.

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-23, 08:38 AM

Is Belkar still chaotic?

during his "character growth"

here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html

and his appreciation of the results

here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html

you see him move from a truly chaotic character to a neutral attitude (neutral evil of course)

at the rate he's going I wouldn't be surprised if he turned Lawful evil even

We don't use a character's behaviour to determine alignment around here, since it can be interpreted many different ways. We use the character's own statements, their use of spells/feats/class features, or someone else in a position to know.

SavageWombat

2009-12-23, 10:09 AM

It's very obvious from Rich's description of the scene in DStP that Belkar is still very chaotic. He's just learned to control it better for his own ends.

It's practically a manifesto on "how to be chaotic in a lawful society without paying for it."

Porthos

2009-12-23, 03:19 PM

To back up SavageWombat, Rich actually goes out of his way to say that Belkar is still Chaotic. He may not actually say the words, "Belkar is still Chaotic Evil". But I think the lines:

"He [Belkar] needs to embrace Chaos as a doctrine for how to survive a world that desperately wants him to conform, rather than just the absence of rules. It's a lesson that Belkar learns quickly, partly because it's coming from someone who is not asking him to be something that he isn't. Shojo (or whatever delusion of Shojo that Belkar has internalized) sets aside the Good and Evil aspect to focus solely on navigating Lawful civilization successfully without getting yourself killed"

More than establish that Belkar is still Chaotic. And as for evil? Well I think we still have enough evidence in comic for that, so that we don't need to go running for commentary over that issue. :smalltongue:

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-23, 03:53 PM

I'm gonna also make a request that we have a hiatus on discussing things explored in Don't Split The Party until at least the new year, to allow the chance of spoilers to be reduced.

Also, I haven't got my copy yet and don't want to be spoilt myself. :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard

2009-12-28, 02:10 PM

Does Elan get a stick added to his inventory now? Or is that a bit over the top?

RMS Oceanic

2009-12-28, 02:17 PM

I'll wait and see if it turns up again.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-12-29, 07:49 AM

Wasnt that the stick from Origin of the PCs? In which case it has already appeared.

Yendor

2009-12-29, 08:46 AM

It certainly looks like the stick on the cast page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html).

RMS Oceanic

2010-01-02, 03:05 PM

Vaarsuvius has Polymorph, and is so noted.

Tao the Ninja

2010-01-02, 08:15 PM

Roy's armor is plate mail, it says so in OOTS adventure game (plate mail and boots shtick)

Gitman00

2010-01-03, 04:50 PM

hamishspence

2010-01-03, 04:50 PM

Gitman00

2010-01-03, 05:05 PM

Spell slots stop once you get to epic level- while you can still have bonus slots through a very high ability score, the only way to access these bonus slots, is by taking the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity.

so a 21st level sorcerer, with a ridiculously high Charisma, might have a load of bonus slots for spells above 9th level, but unless he took Improved Spell Capacity, he wouldn't be able to use these bonus slots.

Actually, the epic rules are weird about this. There are, technically, no spells above 9th level. Epic spells are all considered 10th level for the purposes of spell level-based effects, though there aren't the same kinds of limitations as nonepic spells, so you can cast as many as your relevant Knowledge skill allows. You only use a higher-level slot for metamagic. Ergo, a Maximized 9th-level spell uses a 12th-level slot, but an Epic anything uses a different ruleset and spell level is thrown out the window. If Xykon has a high enough Charisma for a bonus 12th-level spell, he can cast it, whether or not he has Improved Spell Capacity.

You do bring up a good point, though. Would he be using an Epic Spell Slot, or a Bonus Spell based on the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters)? I would think the latter, which means his Charisma would have to be 34 at minimum. Oceanic?

Optimystik

2010-01-03, 05:40 PM

You do bring up a good point, though. Would he be using an Epic Spell Slot, or a Bonus Spell based on the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters)? I would think the latter, which means his Charisma would have to be 34 at minimum. Oceanic?

You linked the wrong chart - the chart for determining his bonus spells above 9th level is here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity)

His Charisma would indeed have to be 34+ as you said, and could quite easily reach that point with the right items.

Kish

2010-01-03, 05:44 PM

Maybe the 12d8 is Redcloak's HD? Just a random thought.
Then he would be able to cast sixth-level spells at that time, and he specifically told his brother he couldn't.

RMS Oceanic

2010-01-03, 05:55 PM

Actually, the epic rules are weird about this. There are, technically, no spells above 9th level. Epic spells are all considered 10th level for the purposes of spell level-based effects, though there aren't the same kinds of limitations as nonepic spells, so you can cast as many as your relevant Knowledge skill allows. You only use a higher-level slot for metamagic. Ergo, a Maximized 9th-level spell uses a 12th-level slot, but an Epic anything uses a different ruleset and spell level is thrown out the window. If Xykon has a high enough Charisma for a bonus 12th-level spell, he can cast it, whether or not he has Improved Spell Capacity.

You do bring up a good point, though. Would he be using an Epic Spell Slot, or a Bonus Spell based on the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters)? I would think the latter, which means his Charisma would have to be 34 at minimum. Oceanic?

Bolded part is wrong.

When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast spells of the normal maximum spell level.

The bolded part, to me, indicates you must have ISC to cast 10th or higher level spells, and you must take it each time you want to access a new level. Why else take the feat multiple times?

Also, I don't think you can use epic spell slots for nonepic spells.

ghoul-n

2010-01-03, 07:19 PM

If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

I think it's time to remove this remark from FAQ ;(

Gitman00

2010-01-04, 07:39 AM

The bolded part, to me, indicates you must have ISC to cast 10th or higher level spells, and you must take it each time you want to access a new level. Why else take the feat multiple times?

Right, thanks for clearing that up.

Optimystik

2010-01-04, 10:04 AM

Regarding the first page, it seems that only Redcloak has ranks in Knowledge (Chemistry.) However, Vaarsuvius seems to be fairly well-acquainted with the subject as well - here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) and here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0296.html)

Gitman00

2010-01-07, 08:43 AM

Shouldn't Haley's bow be listed as a +5 Icy Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#icyBurst) Longbow?

...Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic and I should just laugh at the joke. :smallamused:

Edit: Oh, and I also think #604 is a better reference than 615 for Haley having Improved Precise Shot. Where in 615 is she firing into cover or concealment?

Also, how is 477 evidence for Precise Shot? She doesn't fire into melee in that comic.

Vargtass

2010-01-07, 10:51 AM

Edit: Oh, and I also think #604 is a better reference than 615 for Haley having Improved Precise Shot. Where in 615 is she firing into cover or concealment?

Also, how is 477 evidence for Precise Shot? She doesn't fire into melee in that comic.

Improved Precise Shot is the feat refered to in the first panel that almost duplicates Seeking? Merely shooting into melee is not proof of the feat though (so 604 doesn't prove anything).

Precise shot is a prerequisite for Ranged Pin?

... are my guesses to answer your questions. I don't know for sure, though.

Gitman00

2010-01-07, 02:25 PM

Improved Precise Shot is the feat refered to in the first panel that almost duplicates Seeking? Merely shooting into melee is not proof of the feat though (so 604 doesn't prove anything).

Precise shot is a prerequisite for Ranged Pin?

... are my guesses to answer your questions. I don't know for sure, though.

Okay, I looked up the feats (Had to google Ranged Pin since it's not in the SRD) and that makes sense. Thanks.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-01-08, 11:50 PM

In 616 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html), Belkar trips after making 6 attacks, without his opponent getting an AoO. Would that be sufficient to show him as having either Imp Trip and 7 attacks or Knock-down? Either of those creates whole chains of required feats and ability scores unless we assume a class variant. Even if we assume an unshowen AoO, he'd still need 7 attacks, and he has no source of Haste(doesn't wear footwear and no casters around), meaning ECL 16.

Mc. Lovin'

2010-01-09, 04:31 AM

I think the general argument is "anything could have happened between panels" against that one

Kurald Galain

2010-01-11, 07:26 AM

In 616 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html), Belkar trips after making 6 attacks, without his opponent getting an AoO.

Simple explanation: Crystal is an idiot and forgot she could make AOOs. Characters with low intelligence (such as, oh say, Belkar himself) forget their class features all the time.

Trixie

2010-01-11, 08:39 AM

Simple explanation: Crystal is an idiot and forgot she could make AOOs. Characters with low intelligence (such as, oh say, Belkar himself) forget their class features all the time.

If so, V is dumber (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) than Belkar. Twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html). And so is Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html) :smallamused:

And Durkon's Int (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) must be negative, then :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-01-11, 11:22 AM

Simple explanation: Crystal is an idiot and forgot she could make AOOs. Characters with low intelligence (such as, oh say, Belkar himself) forget their class features all the time.Tripping would still require 7 attacks, though, and I'm finding it hard to believe that an entire round passed between the 2 panels. If I'm right, we're back to either Belkar is level 16, he has Knockdown, he's using a non-core item, or he's using a variant class(Whirling Frenzy Barb). I'm honestly not sure which it could be.

Kurald Galain

2010-01-11, 11:32 AM

If so, V is dumber (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) than Belkar.
That's actually the exact opposite: V has consistently remembered Blackwing whenever it was beneficial to do so. This shows that V is very intelligent (if rather selfish).

And so is Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html) :smallamused:
What do you mean?

And Durkon's Int (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) must be negative, then :smalltongue:
Durkon isn't particularly known to be smart, no. To be fair, though, most of that strip he is forgetting Elan's class feature, not his own.

He's still smarter than Elan and Belkar, though. Consider how often Elan has forgotten he could do illusions, or that his suggestion song only affects one target, or that he can't sing to make people sneak better. Consider that Belkar doesn't know he can cast ranger spells, or can track, or that he has evasion.

Tripping would still require 7 attacks, though, and I'm finding it hard to believe that an entire round passed between the 2 panels.
Nothing needs to happen between the panels; rather, one panel is one round, the next panel is the next round. That appears to be pretty common in the strip. I don't see how Belkar can plausibly have a higher level than Haley in the comic so far.

Vargtass

2010-01-11, 11:37 AM

How about

Round 1: Crystal attacks and misses, Belkar attacks six times and hits
Round 2: Crystal attacks with a natural 1 (drops weapon), Belkar takes the opportunity to trip the unarmed Crystal.

This requires Belkar to make six attacks in total in one round with two weapons and his two weapon fighting feats.

Objections?

Wrecan

2010-01-11, 11:52 AM

There are no fumble rules in 3.5, unless the DM house rules them in.

Vargtass

2010-01-11, 01:06 PM

I know. On the other hand it is a common enough houserule, and makes for an elegant solution in the referenced strip, as we actally see Crystal dropping her weapon.

Anyway, I think it is reasonable to assume that the attack Crystal is allowed between Belkar's six attacks and trip attack missed, and is not clearly shown. If my idea on her dropping her weapon is not accepted, Belkar needs to have improved trip as a feat.

Anyway, the most conservative conclusion from the evidence is that Belkar can make six attacks in one round. Because houserules shall not be accepted unless specifically mentioned, I would also accept the evidence for improved trip. However, there is then nothing to explain the dropped dagger. We cannot say, on the other hand, that Crystal did not try attacking rather than missed her try after Belkar's six attacks.

If Belkar can make exactly six attacks in one round, he has ranger level 11 as a minimum and character level 15 at a maximum.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-01-11, 01:13 PM

Forbiddenwar

2010-01-11, 03:28 PM

Except Crystal is explicitly the same level as Haley, and therefore should get 3 attacks at the minimum. Did we really not see all of them?

Yes. Panels move at the speed of plot. Crystal's attacks didn't advance the plot, so they didn't warrent a panel. It is very rare do we see battles happening in initiative order (I can only think of Miko's in 201). Nearly all the time, Rich only shows us the high points of a battle, which is good. If he did otherwise, the Order would still be in the dungeon, fighting goblins.

Moving on, Roy has a map of the western continent

Vargtass

2010-01-11, 03:35 PM

Except Crystal is explicitly the same level as Haley, and therefore should get 3 attacks at the minimum. Did we really not see all of them?

I repeat my guess that her first attack was such a failure that the DM decided that she dropped her weapon (shown in panel). It makes perfect sense not to make two unarmed attacks against an armed opponment, and then Belkar follows through with his trip attack...

There's no conclusive evidence this is what happened, but it makes sense.

warrl

2010-01-11, 04:27 PM

It is very rare do we see battles happening in initiative order

You mean like this? (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20050729.html)

Dark Matter

2010-01-12, 10:41 PM

In SOD, Xykon is described having a power supply of 16d12 continuous duty and overload followers of 12d8 intermittent duty. Is there any way to translate this to levels under 3.0 rules? It would appear that Xykon had either 16 character levels prior to beating Lirian, which seems low (since he was casting energy drains), or 28 character levels, which seem high (and wouldn't they all be d12s then?). So, help me figure it out. or am I over thinking it?28 levels isn't high, but you're probably over thinking it.

deuxhero

2010-01-13, 12:16 AM

Mr. Scruffy needs at least int 12 to see the scrying eye.

Forbiddenwar

2010-01-13, 12:54 AM

Mr. Scruffy needs at least int 12 to see the scrying eye.

Of which, Scruffy needs to be either an arcane familiar or an awakened animal.

Unless it was a homebrew scrying eye that scries(sp?) locations and not people, but is visible.

Fitzclowningham

2010-01-15, 12:27 PM

Of which, Scruffy needs to be either an arcane familiar or an awakened animal.

I think it would be interesting if Mr. Scruffy was Awakened instead of Belkar's animal companion. Maybe Shojo really was getting help running the kingdom.

Fitzclowningham

2010-01-16, 04:54 PM

If Durkon is going to Wind Walk all five of the other OotS members around the edge of the desert, he's going to need to be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) at least 15th level.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-01-16, 05:18 PM

If Durkon is going to Wind Walk all five of the other OotS members around the edge of the desert, he's going to need to be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) at least 15th level.Except that divine CL is the easiest one to boost, with my buff-based builds hitting CL 20 at ECL ~10.

And we already now the OotS world ignores CL limits for a party, remember the Teleport issues?

Ancalagon

2010-01-16, 05:25 PM

If Durkon is going to Wind Walk all five of the other OotS members around the edge of the desert, he's going to need to be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) at least 15th level.

... which isn't that unlikely. The Order has stagneted around "13ish" for many, many strips and Durkon did not die, but got quite some xp (for the battle of Azure City and the months after that). So it could very well be he hit level 15 in the meantime. Actually, it seems about time the Order (in general, Roy might be an issue due to his death; Belkar had a wight-contact as well which cost him xp) advances more towards 16 than staying 13ish forever.

edit: plus: See above. ;)

derfenrirwolv

2010-01-16, 05:59 PM

Durkon can just cast windwalk multiple times

Gift Jeraff

2010-01-16, 06:02 PM

Just curious, why is Pompey listed as Chaotic Evil with no real evidence? And then Zz'dtri and Yikyik don't even have "Evil" or anything under their names. (I think it's fairly obvious that Yikyik is CE, since he's supposed to be a kobold version of Belkar, as opposed to an opposite, but undetermined Evil is fine enough.)

Shale

2010-01-16, 09:45 PM

He declared himself evil in his first appearance, and his disregard for rules says "chaotic" to me, although that's nowhere near ironclad.

Gift Jeraff

2010-01-23, 10:18 PM

Oh, I'm not saying he's not Evil, I just don't see anything about him that really leans towards Chaos (or Law).

Also, why does Belkar have "Favored class (rogue)" listed as a skill?

Wrecan

2010-01-23, 10:27 PM

Because he's a halfling and all halflings have Rogue as a favored class.

PCofDoom

2010-02-02, 02:28 PM

Did I miss anything - why does Belkar have "3 or more small magical daggers"? I think that it's more likely that it was an art error in strip #611, because the "third dagger" is in the same position as one of the two daggers he's throwing.

Plus, we never see him use more than two, if I'm not mistaken. (Maybe when Miko was chasing him in that warehouse? I can't seem to remember the number of the strip.)

Kurald Galain

2010-02-03, 12:35 PM

Did I miss anything - why does Belkar have "3 or more small magical daggers"? I think that it's more likely that it was an art error in strip #611, because the "third dagger" is in the same position as one of the two daggers he's throwing.

Good point. (1) it is likely an art error, (2) items that occur once are generally not listed until seen again, e.g. Durkon's huge golden beermug, and (3) regardless of how many daggers Belkar has, there's no proof that all of them are magical.

Raimun

2010-02-13, 12:25 PM

I know that there's no actual proof for this but do you think Roy still has the Ring of Jumping +20. You know, the one he used to jump on the zombie dragon Xykon was riding?

Just look at fifth panels of 686 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html) and 689 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html).

I know Roy (or anyone else) hasn't mentioned he would have it but don't you think those leaps were a little high for an armored human without magical help? They certainly look like on par with previous leaps done with the ring.

I imagine Belkar would harvest the kidneys of anyone who won't return his magic items to him but that would require Belkar to remember that he has lent said magic items. He does have a Wisdom penalty, you know.

What do you think? The above? Haste? Artistic choice?

Jagos

2010-02-13, 06:44 PM

Gandariel

2010-02-14, 06:23 AM

mmh, Sabine carries both Nale and Thog while flying, she should have a higher strenght...
and Julia.. well, the sexiest and coolest girl in the school can't have a Cha of 10!

Asta Kask

2010-02-14, 06:37 AM

Is Vaarsuvius really neutral on the Good/Evil axis? S/he was affected by the goblin cleric's Unholy Blight spell (really early in the comic - IDHMBWM), and IIRC it only sickens Good creatures.

RMS Oceanic

2010-02-14, 07:17 AM

Is Vaarsuvius really neutral on the Good/Evil axis? S/he was affected by the goblin cleric's Unholy Blight spell (really early in the comic - IDHMBWM), and IIRC it only sickens Good creatures.

You have remembered incorrectly. It affects neutral people as well, though not as bad as good people. Also, some leeway has to be given since that was an early strip and certain aspects of the characters were not yet in place.

RMS Oceanic

2010-02-14, 07:21 AM

mmh, Sabine carries both Nale and Thog while flying, she should have a higher strenght...
and Julia.. well, the sexiest and coolest girl in the school can't have a Cha of 10!

See the FAQ for determining strength.

As for Julia, Charisma is not the same as Physical Beauty. Charisma refers to force of personality, and the ability to persuade people.

Asta Kask

2010-02-14, 07:37 AM

You have remembered incorrectly. It affects neutral people as well, though not as bad as good people. Also, some leeway has to be given since that was an early strip and certain aspects of the characters were not yet in place.

From the SRD:

You call up unholy power to smite your enemies. The power takes the form of a cold, cloying miasma of greasy darkness.

Only good and neutral (not evil) creatures are harmed by the spell.

The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to a good creature (or 1d6 per caster level, maximum 10d6, to a good outsider) and causes it to be sickened for 1d4 rounds. A successful Will save reduces damage to half and negates the sickened effect. The effects cannot be negated by remove disease or heal, but remove curse is effective.

The spell deals only half damage to creatures who are neither evil nor good, and they are not sickened. Such a creature can reduce the damage in half again (down to one-quarter) with a successful Will save.

Sereg

2010-02-14, 08:19 AM

@Asta Kask A: Not everyone is convinced that V was sickened.
B: Even for those who are, V's alignment has worsened over the course of the comic. The IFCC appear to think that V is neutral on the good/evil axis. I believe that they are more qualified than most of us to know this.

hamishspence

2010-02-15, 07:13 AM

They said (after Familicide) that they had a 50-50 chance of getting V's soul.

Not quite the same thing as saying "V is neutral"