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AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 12:42 PM
So, I’m basically setting up a slightly different dungeon crawl. This is going to be the first campaign I ever DM (I abandoned a more lofty goal to keep it simple for the start). The long and short of it I will be using the BoVD and pitting my players against the undead, corpse and bone templated creatures, and kythons as they make their way through a mine that has been shut down due to danger. There are ample roleplay/storyline options in the town before they actually enter the mine that will change their experiences in the mine itself. Once in the mine, I’m avoiding turning it entirely into a dungeon crawl by giving them opportunities to retreat and regroup before they get too deep (there is a point of no return, but I will be providing them with an additional “Just In Case” MacGuffin at some point), as well as encounters with NPCs (including a Fighter/Cleric posing as a paladin using the torch & weapon fighting style from Dungeonscape cause its fun and will make them think he has two weapon fighting, pockets of miners surviving behind on-purpose cave-ins, and a very lost and upset group of kobold raiders who thought they were tunneling into an underground gnomish city).

I’m looking for advice on a couple things:

A – Traps. I am at a loss for thinking up some fun traps. I only have one, and its kind of a trap/combat mix (players must prevent a group of corpse-creatures from knocking down support poles and killing both groups…yes, literal rocks fall/everyone dies). However, I’d like a few others to keep skill-monkeys happy and excited. I’m looking for makeshift traps, the type that would be put together by desperate miners, or perhaps more complex ones, and a few magical necromancer oriented ideas wouldn’t be far amiss either. So any help here would be great.

B – Custom items. If there’s a precision based fighter in the group (rogue/scout/ninja/etc.) I plan on early on giving them something to allow them to be effective vs. undead. Is that too much to give a player? I feel like I don’t want them to feel useless and this will be an undead heavy campaign.
I also plan on using Kython bone-blades, strapped to hilts, showing up as equipment for non-Kythons. They will have oil chambers that are biological. Might not come in handy for the PCs, but the NPCs using them against the PCs will be able to make a few nasty Kython poison attacks with them in later battles.

C – Sliding difficulty. These guys aren’t really optimizers, but if they’re doing better than I expected, I will start mixing more kythons (who are generally tougher, but will appear to be a sort of side beast at the beginning) into encounters to maintain the feeling of challenge. Corpse/Bone creatures and the living allies/commanders will also come equipped with different/unique things.

D – Not quite dead yet: If a character dies in combat or to a trap or to something, I will ask them separately to make a fort save. If they make that, I will ask them to make a will save. If they don’t make the fort save, they will be dead and can either roll up a new character or hope for a ress at some point (I will give them the option of the playing one of the possible NPCs that might be around at this point). If they make the fort save but not the will save, I’ll pull them aside and ask if they would be willing to allow their character to come back as a dangerous opponent to the party near the end of the adventure as a controlled corpse/bone creature. If they say no, that’s fine, I will give them the same options as if they had failed their fort save. If they say yes, I will ask them to roll a new character and stat up their former character as an opponent. If they make both their fort and will save, I will give them the same options as if they had made their fort save, and one extra: a short solo adventure that will result in their character being utterly and irrevocably changed, maybe for better or for worse. I will roll some dice to determine whether they have the corpse or bone template applied to them (no LA added), or receive one of the willing deformity feats (at random, no cost to them). I like the idea of the party being suddenly confronted with one of their own, changed horribly, and I think it will add a little more flavor and horror to the story without the person who gets subjected to it getting too upset.

EDIT: The above death/rebirth scenario will only occur for the first death. Once a PC has returned, the BBEG that did this to them will say "Oh hell no" to bothering to do this to other PCs that die. Additionally I will periodically be having that character make additional will saves to make them worry (theoretically failable, but really only on a one. I just want them to worry.)

Anyways. I know this is a lot. But if anyone has any ideas of opinions, I’d appreciate it. Thanks!

Another_Poet
2009-11-10, 03:07 PM
Sounds awesome. A point-by-point:


I will be providing them with an additional “Just In Case” MacGuffin at some point

Just for the record, a MacGuffin is an item that is the object of a major quest and which drives the entire story. If the PCs get it they save the world; if the villain gets it things get Really Bad. It sounds like you mean a bonus magic item for the PCs, which is different.


A – Traps.

One that I used was a 20' pit with mushrooms and mold growing along the bottom, sides, and edges around the top. I had an NPC push someone into it, but you could have it disguised as a mushroom-covered floor instead. the point is, a PC who falls in takes only half falling damage (cushioned by fungus) but finds themselves in a pit full of Violet Fungus. Climbing out is near impossible because of the slippery mold.

A bridge over a deep chasm could hae auto-crossbows that swing up from below and begin to target random squares on the bridge. If that's all it is, the PCs have the option of trying to run by; or you can drop barrier on the bridge to force them to confront the trap. This one was a lot of fun because the PCs had the option of using Disable Device on each individual crossbow, beating the crossbows to bits with a weapon, or trying to reason out the pattern in which the crossbows fired to find safe squares to stand in. The things have to run out of ammo eventually. (Note: specify that they shoot at knee-height so people don't just lie down and let them shoot over their heads.)


B – Custom items. If there’s a precision based fighter in the group (rogue/scout/ninja/etc.) I plan on early on giving them something to allow them to be effective vs. undead.

Just take a cue from Pathfinder and allow Sneak Attack I (and skirmish, sudden strike etc) to work against all creature types. of course Oozes and incorporeal enemies should still be immune, but anything else has weak spots that can be hit. It won't overpower things.

If you want, make it an item or call it a feat - and give them said feat for free :)


C – Sliding difficulty.

It sounds like you have a plan here already, also, you can easily scale the difficulty of monsters by adding HP or DR if you find they're too weak. It's often easier to do it that way than adding more monsters.


D – Not quite dead yet

If I were you, I would take the random elements out of it. If someone dies I would give them three options: make a new character and the old one is dead; make a new character and the old one comes back as evil undead; or keep playing the old one, but now as an undead with free will. Take them aside and offer this in secret so the other players don't know right away.

This puts PC control in the players' hands where it belongs. It also avoid having them saddled with a character they thought would be cool but wasn't ("Yeah, I thought it'd be fun to have the Bone template but I rolled this crappy Deformity instead...").

In order to balance this you might want to impose an XP penalty on the person - which they should know about - so thety have to pay off extra XP before they can work toward leveling again. Otherwise dying means getting a free power boost, which is weird.

Last but not least, be sure to enforce the players roleplaying their first encounter with their former companion coming back as undead - they should have no reason to trust the person, and may even attack on sight. Make the sure the player of the undead PC is reminded of this in advance because it will take some serious RPing on their part to prove themselves to the group.

ap

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 03:18 PM
A – Traps. I am at a loss for thinking up some fun traps. I only have one, and its kind of a trap/combat mix (players must prevent a group of corpse-creatures from knocking down support poles and killing both groups…yes, literal rocks fall/everyone dies). However, I’d like a few others to keep skill-monkeys happy and excited. I’m looking for makeshift traps, the type that would be put together by desperate miners, or perhaps more complex ones, and a few magical necromancer oriented ideas wouldn’t be far amiss either. So any help here would be great.



Miners would probably rig up rockfalls (too much weight on this pressure plate and a load of loose rocks fall on your head), cave-ins (like rockfalls, except rather than the rocks falling on a person, they block off a hallway, and also there are more rocks), and things involving alchemical items rather than magic. Acid, alchemical fire, even lantern oil could all be used.

Hmm... a trap that douses the party in lantern oil, then drops a few delicate glass vials of alchemical fire on them (or at their feet) would be pretty fun. It's the kind of trap that would work well against undead, if that's what the mine was having trouble with, and will just be obnoxious for the players.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 03:35 PM
Jumpin Jehosophat…

Kythons are, I believe, nigh immune to fire and acid…

I want to light a hallway on fire and have a flaming kython adult rise out of the rubble and unsheath a boneblade in front of the party. Then unsheath a second one. TEMPEST FLAMING KYTHON. Thank you for just giving me the greatest idea ever.

(I will not actually be creating a Kython with prestige class levels. Yet. The Kython in a hallway of fire might happen though.)

One thing about the death thing…I am planning on giving them options, but I feel like letting them flat out pick a deformity/template over another is a bit much. They did DIE, after all. I forgot to include this, but while I will be taxing them for their transformational advantages, it might not always be exp (which I find to be clumsy even though it is effective). I will most likely damage a stat permanently or give them save penalties or something like that, depending on the situation. Yeah, it’ll be highly situational.

Crafty Cultist
2009-11-10, 03:45 PM
If you want the rouge to be able to sneak attack undead then maybe have a magic item that grants uses of grave strike. it's a 1st level spell from complete adventurer that lets a sneak attack made in the next round affect undead

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 03:48 PM
A – Traps. Falling rock traps, large and small. Cave in traps. Bells on strings. Slippery rocks requiring balance checks. Darkness can be its own hazard. Thin ledges and steep climbs can also act as traps of sorts. Not to mention the classic pit trap.

B – Custom items. "oil of undead bane" gives a weapon the undead bane quality for 1 minute. I'm also a big fan of minor enchantments or improvements +1 damage to undead can be rather helpful at low levels.

Another_Poet
2009-11-10, 03:58 PM
Rhiannon has great ideas.

She made me think of something else, too. Miners would know enough about underground fires to realise that it could be even more deadling to use a fire to deplete the oxygen out of somewhere rather then trying to directly burn people.

If the PCs go past a fork in the tunnel and 10 minutes later a fire ignites at that fork, with plenty of fuel, the PCs might never notice until the fire has sucked most of the oxygen out of the tunnel they've gone down. If the tunnel is ultimately a dead end they'll have to make a run back to the fork, making Con checks against suffocation the whole way, and then run through an inferno to get on the side that has fresh air.


One thing about the death thing…I am planning on giving them options, but I feel like letting them flat out pick a deformity/template over another is a bit much. They did DIE, after all. I forgot to include this, but while I will be taxing them for their transformational advantages, it might not always be exp (which I find to be clumsy even though it is effective). I will most likely damage a stat permanently or give them save penalties or something like that, depending on the situation. Yeah, it’ll be highly situational.

Your concerns are well founded. Unfortunately balance in this regard is tricky. "Taxing" the players who use the option is probably the best way to go. Taking away player control over their own character is a bad solution. If they roll something they don't like and are forced to keep it, it leads to hurt feelings. If they roll something they don't like and are allowed to roll up a new character instead, there's no point in making them roll randomly in the first place - they will only ever keep the results if it's what they wanted anyway.

Find some other way to balance it besides relying on saving throws and d%'s to determine their templates and abilities.

Mando Knight
2009-11-10, 04:01 PM
Here are two (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/10/9/) traps. One should be sufficient.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 04:06 PM
Rhiannon has great ideas.
Your concerns are well founded. Unfortunately balance in this regard is tricky. "Taxing" the players who use the option is probably the best way to go. Taking away player control over their own character is a bad solution. If they roll something they don't like and are forced to keep it, it leads to hurt feelings. If they roll something they don't like and are allowed to roll up a new character instead, there's no point in making them roll randomly in the first place - they will only ever keep the results if it's what they wanted anyway.


I agree and disagree with your points.

I am attempting to create a situation where loss of character control very briefly will be fun, rather than frustrating. I DO want this to be slightly out of their hands. I am hoping that by the time this happens, they will trust me enough to take this option and be eager to see what happens to them.

I understand your point and if I see the player being frustrated, I will let them “reroll” or just tell them they have what they want, because that’s more important to me. Or rather I will fudge away behind my DM fiat to give them something I know they will enjoy rather than leave them with something ****ty. They won’t be able to see my table and this will only happen once in the game, so really, I could just not make a table at all and flat-out lie, giving them exactly what I know they’d want to have. These are my friends, not my minions or victims, ya know?

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 04:24 PM
Jumpin Jehosophat…

Kythons are, I believe, nigh immune to fire and acid…

I want to light a hallway on fire and have a flaming kython adult rise out of the rubble and unsheath a boneblade in front of the party. Then unsheath a second one. TEMPEST FLAMING KYTHON. Thank you for just giving me the greatest idea ever.

(I will not actually be creating a Kython with prestige class levels. Yet. The Kython in a hallway of fire might happen though.)



Oh, man, that is BRILLIANT. That'll scare the everliving hell out of the party. :-D

There is also a book somewhere, the title of which I am blanking on because I'm AFB, that is basically just a collection of traps and puzzles and things. You might be able to find/adapt some stuff from there... Once I get home I'll find the title and pass it along.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-10, 04:26 PM
I’m looking for advice on a couple things:

B – Custom items. If there’s a precision based fighter in the group (rogue/scout/ninja/etc.) I plan on early on giving them something to allow them to be effective vs. undead. Is that too much to give a player? I feel like I don’t want them to feel useless and this will be an undead heavy campaign.
I also plan on using Kython bone-blades, strapped to hilts, showing up as equipment for non-Kythons. They will have oil chambers that are biological. Might not come in handy for the PCs, but the NPCs using them against the PCs will be able to make a few nasty Kython poison attacks with them in later battles.

There is a Crystal you can attach to gear in Magic Item Compendruim that does what you are trying to do (make them more effective vs undead).
The Least Weapon Crystal adds +1d6 damage.

Just a thought.

jiriku
2009-11-10, 04:37 PM
Some one has summoned the trap-meister...very well. I am here.

I've Got a Crush On You (CR 10)
Setting: Ten-foot wide tunnel, gently arcing upward. Worked stone. Broad portal at terminus of the tunnel. Trapped door.
Mechanism: eight hydraulic pistons powered by a nearby underground stream. A volume of heavier-than-air poison gas. Four advanced wights (8 HD ea.).
Relevant DCs: Search 28, Disable 28, and Reflex 25

Trap phase 1:
Trigger: unlocking the door, or operating the hinges.
Effect: Four pistons activate, driving large cylinders down from the ceiling. Two are in the two squares immediately in front of the door, two are located twenty-five feet back from the door. Each cylinder is just under five feet in diameter and extends down ten feet from the floor to the ceiling. Anyone in the target squares failing a Reflex save sustains 8d6 crushing damage and is knocked prone and immobilized under the weight. Those succeeding the save take half damage and are pushed into an adjacent square (player's choice, but make them choose quickly).

Trap phase 2: Trigger: dropping of the cylinders.
Effect: Each of the cylinders contains a hollow space four feet in diameter and about twenty feet in height. The cylinders are open on the sides facing the twenty-foot square enclosed by the four cylinders. The cylinders contain a heavier-than-air poisonous gas with effects comparable to a cloudkill spell. During the round the trap is triggered, everyone pinned under a cylinder or caught between the two pairs of cylinders is exposed to the effect of the gas. Owing to the slope of the hallway, the gas then rolls back down the hallway at a rate of 10 feet per round, potentially affecting characters who were standing 30 ft or more behind the door when the trap was triggered.

Trap phase 3:
Trigger: Dropping of the cylinders.
Effect: Each of the hollow spaces in the four cylinders also contains an advanced wight (8 HD). They have been imprisoned in the cylinders, are quite hungry, and are upset about being jostled when the cylinders dropped (3 hp falling damage to each wight for the 10 ft fall). If victims are pinned under the cylinders or trapped in the spaces between them, the wights immediately attack. The wights have cover while within their cylinders but can emerge into an available 5 ft square with a simple five-foot step. If no targets are available, the wights will remain within their cylinders.

Reset mechanism: For five minutes after the trap is triggered, water from an underground stream gradually refills a reservoir used to power the trap mechanism. During this period, the second set of hydraulic cylinders, located in the floor immediately below the ceiling cylinders, rises ten feet, pushing the ceiling cylinders back into place. Once they are back in place, they lock, and the floor-mounted cylinders drop back into the floor. Gas from reservoirs in the ceiling refill the cylinders (destroyed wights are not replaced). The trap is reset.


To scale this trap to a lower difficulty, use basic wights, or downgrade the poison to a stinking cloud effect (boo). To increase difficulty, add a corpse rat swarm to the cyldinders, heighten the cloudkill, smear a Con-draining poison on the wight's claws, or replace the wights with mummies.

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 04:38 PM
for traps
Legends & Lairs - Traps and Treachery (I und II) both books have some really original ones in them :)

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 04:47 PM
Summon has summoned the trap-meister...very well. I am here.

::terrifying stuff::



FIRST TIME DMING. DO NOT WANT TO BE LYNCHED.

(but I am saving that one)

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 04:53 PM
Some one has summoned the trap-meister...very well. I am here.

I've Got a Crush On You (CR 10)

<snip>



That is a thing of BEAUTY, my good sir. BEAUTY I say.

My players would utterly murder me if I ever inflicted such horror upon them, but that is beautiful in its cruelty.

Amphetryon
2009-11-10, 05:00 PM
Just for the record, a MacGuffin is an item that is the object of a major quest and which drives the entire story. If the PCs get it they save the world; if the villain gets it things get Really Bad. It sounds like you mean a bonus magic item for the PCs, which is different.
Apparently you're not quite using the traditional definition, then:

A MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction."[1]

Sometimes, the specific nature of the MacGuffin is not important to the plot such that anything that serves as a motivation serves its purpose. The MacGuffin can sometimes be ambiguous, completely undefined, generic or left open to interpretation. That was the wiki. This is tvtropes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin) :smallsmile:

As to your D), make sure your players are down with the idea of the DM randomly applying templates to their characters upon reaching death's door; I've known more than one player who would rather have his character fall on his sword than have surprise templates added to his prize concept. Some would rather start anew than play a character they didn't envision.

Another_Poet
2009-11-10, 05:02 PM
That is a thing of BEAUTY, my good sir. BEAUTY I say.

My players would utterly murder me if I ever inflicted such horror upon them, but that is beautiful in its cruelty.

I'm doin' it! Seriously. As soon as I can get someone to play in one of my games again.

(Kidding)

jiriku
2009-11-10, 05:26 PM
FIRST TIME DMING. DO NOT WANT TO BE LYNCHED.

(but I am saving that one)

Alright, alright. I see you mean to coddle your players.

I Hope You Get the Point (CR 5)
Setting: Passage from one room to another is via a chute five feet high, five feet wide, sloping at a 45 degree angle for a distance of about 30 feet. Both the entry and exit points of the chute are at floor level in their respective rooms. The insides of the chute are stone, but are polished extremely smooth.
Mechanism: Three spring-loaded masterwork spears, a 20' deep pit lined with spikes.
Relevant DCs: Search 25 to locate pressure plate, but only characters searching for traps while balancing in the lower half of the chute have a chance to discover it, Disable Device 20 to disable the pressure plate, Search DC 18 to locate the pit, Disable DC 15 to disable the pit, DC 17 Balance check to avoid slipping in the chute.

Trap Phase 1:
Trigger: A weight-sensitive panel five feet square located about 20 ft down the length of the chute. This trigger is a repeat arming trigger: The first time a weight of at least 50 pounds is pressed on it, the trigger places tension on one of the three concealed spears, but nothing else happens. The second time it is triggered, it places tension on the second spear. The third time it is triggered, it places tension on the third spear and all three pop up from concealment.
Effect: After the third trigger of the pressure plate, three spears pop up in the floor of the chute about 25 ft down its length, facing towards the upper end of the chute with about a 30 degree angle between the spear and the floor of the chute. These spears are considered set against a charge. Anyone sliding down the chute (for example, the character who triggered the pressure plate) takes three attacks at +12 each, sustaining double damage from the spears (2d8 per hit). The spears can be removed from their mountings with a little work (no skill check required).

Trap Phase 2:
Trigger: The fourth time the repeat pressure plate trigger is activated, the lock on the pit trap cover is released. Thereafter, the pit cover releases under 50 pounds of weight.
Effect: Pit trap is 20 ft deep, lines with spikes. 2d6 falling damage, 1d4 spikes per target at +10 melee, 1d4+2 damage per spike.

A lot like the previous trap, this trap plays with player's expectations and fearfulness. Upon realizing they have to drop down a chute to enter the next room, players are likely to slide heavy things down the chute in an attempt to see if bad things will happen. Light weights will be insufficient to trigger the touch panel, while one or two trials with heavier weights will not release the spears or pit cover. Eventually a character will slide down the chute. When nothing happens, the others will take heart and follow. The third character to slide down the chute will get a nasty surprise, however, as the spring-loaded spears pop up and impale him as he slides down the chute! Fortunately, he's likely to stop moving at that point, as the pit trap at the bottom of the chute is now enabled. Since players have previously dropped on that square with no ill effects, you're highly likely to catch an unwary player when he finally exits the chute, or when one of his comrades tries to crawl back up the chute to help him.

However, as a sop to the fragile health of your typical dungeon delver, the damage is moderate; it's likely you'll kill one of them, at the most.

Dimers
2009-11-10, 05:27 PM
Spiritwall and wall of gloom are necromancer-y spells that are good for cutting the PCs off from retreating, and they could be turned into traps using basic rules. An animate dead trap that gets set off in the same room where a big battle just happened could lead to some terrified looks. I also like the use of deoxygenating the air as a trap, since it makes players happy when they get to show off how much they know about mine safety IRL.

Crafty_Cultist already mentioned an item with a grave strike effect. If you want to hold the classes to their box specs, this is a great choice, especially since you can limit the uses-per-day or total number of uses of such an item. I agree with Another_Poet on the logic and balance of allowing sneak attack to affect most creatures (I mean, undead do have "discernable anatomy"). That's just my 2cp ... buy yourself two torches, and voila, you're enlightened :smallwink: