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Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 01:46 PM
So after reading a post earlier today I was inspired to pose this problem to my new friends here at the Gitp forums.

I attend a Tuesday night gaming group almost every Tuesday.
Lucky I'm a player in this group.

For a very long time now I have noticed that a particular player will do the following during combat.

Roll an attack roll
Quickly pick up the dice
Throw it down onto the table (so its not on the same number anymore)
Types the number into their calculator
Rattles off a high 20's low 30's number to the DM

The same is likewise when a skill check is made.

The only exception to this is when I specifically look at the dice when they roll and they notice me watching.

A few months back for ha ha's I was with this player in another campaign and I wrote down the number on the dice they called out to the DM for every roll they made. (they were across a very large table at the time) For 5 sessions straight nothing lower than a 15 was ever "rolled".

Recently at my current table this has been happening frequently.

As an adult I understand the need to succeed and have that feeling of accomplishment.

I also understand that there are ways to address this:
Have a side talk with the player.
Talk with the DM.
Address it at the table.
Don't worry about it.

However there is an additional social situation that complicates the matter.

The player has been banned exiled from groups before (Mainly because she would not sleep with another DM's buddy, but I digress.) There were attempts to heal this old group but they all failed.

So after reading above...And assuming I am a relatively savvy and smart individual; who knows that this is an issue that should be dealt with carefully.

How would you forum members proceed if the above situation was at your table?

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 01:50 PM
Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

I would pull them aside and have an honest chat with them. If they admit it and change their ways, well and good. If they refuse to admit it and storm off, meh. If they refuse to admit it and don't storm off, but keep playing, there's a chance they'll stop doing it quite as much now that they know someone noticed.

Jan Mattys
2009-11-10, 01:50 PM
I'd stick a generic "NO CHEATING" sign at the exterior of my DM screen.

No names, nothing.

Even the dumb ones get the hint, and they usually appreciate not to have been confronted face to face.

:smallbiggrin:

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 01:54 PM
Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

I would pull them aside and have an honest chat with them. If they admit it and change their ways, well and good. If they refuse to admit it and storm off, meh. If they refuse to admit it and don't storm off, but keep playing, there's a chance they'll stop doing it quite as much now that they know someone noticed.

Yeah, I'm not so much down with that first part as they are my friend. Also my sweetness might get mad at me for asking another lady to sleep with me!

I've also been on many occasions instructed by the above player to "add what (EXP) we should have earned, instead of what the DM told us to write down"

I left that bit out...

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 01:55 PM
I'd stick a generic "NO CHEATING" sign at the exterior of my DM screen.

No names, nothing.

Even the dumb ones get the hint, and they usually appreciate not to have been confronted face to face.

:smallbiggrin:

Sorry for the double post but I'm not actually the DM of this group (I rarely get to PC anymore :smallannoyed: )

Jan Mattys
2009-11-10, 01:57 PM
Sorry for the double post but I'm not actually the DM of this group (I rarely get to PC anymore :smallannoyed: )

I'd stick a NO CHEATING sign at the exterior of the DM screen, then. :smallwink:
Works anyway.

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 01:59 PM
hahah!:smalltongue:

Guinea Anubis
2009-11-10, 01:59 PM
what I would do is this, I would talk to them away from everyone else. I would nicely tell them what I "think" I have seen. I would also be sure to persent it in a concerned way "because you like gaming with this person and do not want to see them forced out of another gaming group over something silly like this".

After that if it keep happening and bugs you talk to the DM.

jiriku
2009-11-10, 02:06 PM
Any of the four solutions you suggested would be appropriate. It's very reasonable for you to consider attempting any or all of them in whatever combination seems best to you.

I understand that past history makes things a tad complicated. But let me ask you this: Is she your friend? If she is, do you respect her and care about her enough to take a risk and confront her on her unethical behavior? On one level, this is just a game, but on another level, you're a lot like that guy who's considering whether to take the keys away from his friend who's had too much to drink and is about to get behind the wheel.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 02:10 PM
Any of the four solutions you suggested would be appropriate. It's very reasonable for you to consider attempting any or all of them in whatever combination seems best to you.


Including asking her to sleep with you. That's key.

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 02:13 PM
this is just a game, but on another level, you're a lot like that guy who's considering whether to take the keys away from his friend who's had too much to drink and is about to get behind the wheel.

I wouldn't equate it like that exactly but I see your point.

I honestly think the cheating is a symptom of her last dysfunctional group.
I really just wanted to see if my thoughts were on the right page.

I would REALLY appreciate a female perspective on this as well so someone wrangle up a lady friend and send her over to the thread.

Gamerlord
2009-11-10, 02:13 PM
Whenever one of my players dares to cheat, a bloodbath ensues, their character is not going to survive the carnage, but as I am usually a DM.

As a player, I usually outright say it at the table, maybe I'm just bold, or I go for the subtle approach "Gee, you sure are rolling really well!" or "Wow, that die isn't fixed is it?" in a " :smalltongue: " or " :smallamused: " like manner, but it gets the message across.

Radiun
2009-11-10, 02:17 PM
"I noticed you never seem to roll anything lower than a 15. Now I like you, so I just think your the luckiest roller in the world and should be playing at a casino, but others might get suspicious. Also, Kobolds, they're the swellest"

That last phrase is the main point. If she denies that Kobolds are the best, there MUST be something wrong.

Mastikator
2009-11-10, 02:21 PM
Try to catch him red handed, then you stand up, point in his face and yell "J'ACCUSE!"


That's how not to do it :smalltongue:

One thing you can do though is roll all the dice. Tell them it's so they can't calculate the AC of the monsters, and the HP. To prevent meta-gaming, and help them focus on the roleplaying by not confusing them with numbers.
You don't have to actually confront him or even deal with him, but the dice problem is solved.

And regularly check their characters. For DMy reasons, and totally not to check that they didn't make any (intentional beneficial) errors, which you can politely point out without needing to insinuate anyone.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 02:21 PM
I would REALLY appreciate a female perspective on this as well so someone wrangle up a lady friend and send her over to the thread.

Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 02:28 PM
Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

::Teleports under the nearest table or inside the closest bathtub::


(PS I haven't seen ::action:: since my aol days huzzah!)

Mongoose87
2009-11-10, 02:36 PM
Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

Wow, first you insult women, then you prepare to assault them!?

:smalltongue:

Seatbelt
2009-11-10, 02:36 PM
One thing you can do though is roll all the dice. Tell them it's so they can't calculate the AC of the monsters, and the HP. To prevent meta-gaming, and help them focus on the roleplaying by not confusing them with numbers.
You don't have to actually confront him or even deal with him, but the dice problem is solved.

If a DM suggested this I might give it a shot for one night - I'm always down for new things - but I probably wouldn't keep playing the campaign past the first session. If I wanted to have all the calculations go on behind the scenes I'd play a video game.


Also I can't add. When I started using a random number generator at higher level play it sped up my turns so much my friends didn't care if the high/low distribution was extremely uneven (5 or 6 highs and then 4 or 5 lows in a row)

Megaduck
2009-11-10, 02:37 PM
Well, all other history aside the first thing you need to do is ask yourself,

"Does this bother me?"

D&D is a game that can be played a lot of different ways. Some people play it like a mechanical war game where every role matters and others play it like a free form story telling session where dice rolls may be fudged or ignored all together.

I don't know what style your playing or want to play but you're goal in the game is to have fun. If her cheating is hurting your fun and the fun of the table then I advise you to talk to either quietly take her aside or talk to you DM. Depending on the personalities involved.

If its not damaging your fun that you could simply ignore it.

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 02:37 PM
Er... not sure why a "female perspective" is important, but as a girl D&D player, here goes.

The way I see it, it isn't your responsibility to deal with cheaters. It's the DM's job. The DM is responsible for maintaining order and enforcing rules at the table, so talking to the cheater is their job. I'd talk to your DM and mention that you've observed her fixing her rolls, and ask that he talk about it with her. Let him decide how to handle said talk and what the "punishment" for continued cheating will be. You could suggest that the DM start enforcing a rule where all players roll their dice out in the open (as opposed to on character sheets or behind dice boxes or whatever).

I'm not quite sure if or how her past bad experiences with a group are to blame here (although as an aside, what the hell sleazebags kicking someone out of a game in retaliation for saying no to sex, that's seriously just gross). Maybe she feels like if she's a really successful character then those same kind of threats won't be made against her? You might be reading into her motives a little too much with that, and her motives aren't the issue. She's cheating; it's a problem; it needs to stop. IMO, it is the DM's responsibility to handle such things.

Keshay
2009-11-10, 02:46 PM
I'd openly ask how many times per day theie character is supposed to be able to use their reroll special abilities, which feat/item they're getting it from, etc...

Blatant cheaters like this will not change their ways due to private conversations or subtle clues, often they don't consider that they're actually doing anything wrong.

If its a matter of not wanting to hurt tender feelings, have a discussion with your DM. If they choose to keep her around, I suggest a particular kind of curse where there is a 50% chance of the die roll is reversed. (1 is a 20, 15 is a 6, etc...). Have her announce her unmodified rolls only, then have her roll a d6, on odds, the roll stands, on evens its reversed. If she starts coming up with inordinate numbers of 10, 11, 12s, well you have your answer as to whether she's learned her lesson.

As for her history of being banned, I'm assuming the "reason" cited of declining to sleep with the DM's buddy is her version of the story? I'm tempted to suspect that perhaps she was banned for cheating and that the untoward advances of the old DM's buddy are a cover story.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 02:47 PM
The way I see it, it isn't your responsibility to deal with cheaters. It's the DM's job. The DM is responsible for maintaining order and enforcing rules at the table, so talking to the cheater is their job. I'd talk to your DM and mention that you've observed her fixing her rolls, and ask that he talk about it with her.

This is absolutely correct. It even supersedes attempts to sleep with her.

For now.

Ormagoden
2009-11-10, 02:58 PM
As for her history of being banned, I'm assuming the "reason" cited of declining to sleep with the DM's buddy is her version of the story? I'm tempted to suspect that perhaps she was banned for cheating and that the untoward advances of the old DM's buddy are a cover story.

Nah its true...Sadly.


Er... not sure why a "female perspective" is important, but as a girl D&D player, here goes.

Because as a woman you have insight to how a woman feels of course!
I'm a man, all we have insight about is how to grill a steak and when it is and isn't ok to eat the family pet...or maybe that's just me.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts everyone!

FMArthur
2009-11-10, 03:12 PM
May I suggest an alternate approach? I don't see the problem with just stating your observations: "you always roll high, you re-roll quite a lot, and you don't roll where others can see it... it looks pretty suspicious." It's not unreasonable to ask others to try not to look like they're cheating. Either they come up with a good reason for why they can act like a cheater (really hard, since some cheater behaviors have no other explanation), or start rolling in plain view and playing honestly ("to alleviate your suspicion"; they don't even need to admit to cheating). Perfectly safe and reasonable. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_punch)

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 03:13 PM
:: headdesks forever ::


This is absolutely correct. It even supersedes attempts to sleep with her.

For now.

One: so glad that the men in my gaming group are either married, dating, or gay, AND they're all mature enough to handle opposite-sex relationships without defaulting to thinking about how to seduce the women in the group.




Because as a woman you have insight to how a woman feels of course!
I'm a man, all we have insight about is how to grill a steak and when it is and isn't ok to eat the family pet...or maybe that's just me.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts everyone!

Two: Women are not a monolith. We do not all think alike. We are in fact individual human beings who have nothing in common with hive-minded creatures. I can tell you what I think about a situation. My advice is not going to be necessarily more authoritative simply because I'm a girl advising you on a problem you're having with another girl.

[/soapbox]

Glass Mouse
2009-11-10, 03:25 PM
Meh. This is not a "girl" issue. It's a "cheater" issue. Don't worry about gender.

An idea I see from time to time is getting a cool dice tower of some sorts. No one is openly accused of anything, everyone gets something cool to look at.

Maybe the cheating stems from something else?
Maybe she feels outshined by the rest of the party?
Maybe she doesn't trust the GM enough?

I agree, though, that this is the GM's job. Your job, as a player, would only amount to making the GM aware of the problem.
The rest is up to him.

Edit: Rhiannon87, I'm pretty sure AtwasAwamps was just sarcastic :smallsmile:

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 03:30 PM
Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

Brilliant.

UglyPanda
2009-11-10, 03:32 PM
What I'd do is to put my hand over the die before or after it has been rolled and politely say "Since you have such bad vision, why don't I roll for you from now on?" and see how she reacts. This has a very very low chance of working, but it's worth a shot.

Myrmex
2009-11-10, 03:32 PM
What I'd do is to put my hand over the die after it has been rolled and politely say "Since you have such bad vision, why don't I roll for you from now on?" and see how she reacts. This has a very very low chance of working, but it's worth a shot.

That one is also brutal.

jiriku
2009-11-10, 03:40 PM
Two: Women are not a monolith. We do not all think alike. We are in fact individual human beings who have nothing in common with hive-minded creatures.

Ha! A shamelessly transparent lie. Whenever I do something to upset my wife, every woman in my family and our circle of friends knows about it instantly and chastises me about it. What can this be if not proof that women have a hive mind?

Edit: And don't try to throw me off with any of that "telephone" nonsense. It's a hive mind for sure.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 03:56 PM
:: headdesks forever ::



One: so glad that the men in my gaming group are either married, dating, or gay, AND they're all mature enough to handle opposite-sex relationships without defaulting to thinking about how to seduce the women in the group.




You...um...you realize I'm kidding, right? That I don't seriously think seducing is her is the obvious option here? I'm just playing around.

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 04:00 PM
Edit: Rhiannon87, I'm pretty sure AtwasAwamps was just sarcastic :smallsmile:

I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm too, but it was mentioned in many posts and just started grating on me after a bit. I was trying to hold off on soapboxing and getting all Someone Is Wrong On the Internet (http://xkcd.com/386/) about it, but eventually the annoyance bubbled over a bit.

I don't want this to get off topic though. Must focus on problem at hand: solutions to cheating.

The dice tower (or dice box, something I've also seen mentioned) seems like a good idea. It doesn't single out the cheating player, and it ensures honesty from all parties. (Except the DM, who in many groups is expected and allowed to fudge rolls on occasion. Unless your group is totally hardcore and your DM never fudges a roll so the monster fails its saving throw or doesn't actually get a critical or something.)

Wings of Peace
2009-11-10, 04:17 PM
Convince the DM to let them remake the character and break it so bad cheating will seem like a handicap :smallsmile:

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 04:33 PM
Someone Is Wrong On the Internet (http://xkcd.com/386/) about it, but eventually the annoyance bubbled over a bit.

:smallfrown:

::tentatively peeks out from hiding place::

Friends now?

Also, dicetowers are awesome and I want one.

Rhiannon87
2009-11-10, 04:49 PM
:smallfrown:

::tentatively peeks out from hiding place::

Friends now?

Also, dicetowers are awesome and I want one.

Heh, yes. Sorry for getting snappish. :smallredface:

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-10, 04:52 PM
Heh, yes. Sorry for getting snappish. :smallredface:

Cool. Let's go get ice cream. My treat!

As to the OP, hope things work out. My current group is scratching its collective head on how to deal with someone doing irritating stuff as well, though in his case its mostly OOC/OOG stuff.

Fiery Diamond
2009-11-10, 05:25 PM
:: headdesks forever ::



One: so glad that the men in my gaming group are either married, dating, or gay, AND they're all mature enough to handle opposite-sex relationships without defaulting to thinking about how to seduce the women in the group.



Two: Women are not a monolith. We do not all think alike. We are in fact individual human beings who have nothing in common with hive-minded creatures. I can tell you what I think about a situation. My advice is not going to be necessarily more authoritative simply because I'm a girl advising you on a problem you're having with another girl.

[/soapbox]

Why are you apologizing for this? I loved this post! It's the best one on the thread!

Brendan
2009-11-10, 05:36 PM
For attack rolls and skill checks, it is often good to roll them in secret. This is good because it means that they cannot figure out the AC and whether to use their uberpotion that gives them +5 to hit or weather they are just rolling poorly. Also, many knowledge and other sorts of checks have unfavorable results if you fail that you may not be made aware of, so you can just roll the dice for them.
On a lighter note, I think that occasionally trying to outwit or trick the DM can be fun in smallish doses, as it lets you get retribution from when the DM sends deadly monsters after you that you only beat by rolling a natural 20 on the will save.

Mercenary Pen
2009-11-10, 06:01 PM
An idea I'd suggest is that you arrange things so that- apart from the DM- everyone rolls for the person on their left, call it a trust exercise. You don't have to call the player on cheating behaviour just yet, and you give them a chance to either get used to rolling dice fairly, or cheat with somebody else's character (probably deliberately rolling low to sabotage) at which point it becomes obvious.

Alternatively, with DM permission, try 'cheating' yourself and get caught, giving the DM a reason to impose a sensible rule like this:

1- Roll your dice.
2- Read out the actual numbers on the dice before they get picked up off the table.
3- Only then is the player allowed to scoop their dice and do the addition.

With this second solution, it gets harder for her to cheat the same way, and yet you don't have to confront her head on.

Maryring
2009-11-10, 06:18 PM
Shush Rhiannon. Don't break the cover.

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2007-02-07.gif

As for the OP, personally I'd be a fan of the DM screen note. It is discreet, won't be pinned back to you specifically, and won't make anyone feel singled out while bringing attention to the matter. I'd say you should go for that.

sambo.
2009-11-10, 07:44 PM
i have a simple rule at my table:

if i don't see the roll made, roll it again.

stops cheaters dead in their tracks.

except for that one dimwit who turned up with loaded dice.

after the fifth nat 20 in a row, i dropped his die in a tumbler of water: BUSTED!

truemane
2009-11-10, 07:56 PM
I've been accused of being both overly lawful and underly sympathetic (assuming 'underly' is even a word), but this all seems very simple to me.

1. Her past is no excuse. Period. Her possession or non-possession of a uterus is no excuse. Period. If she's cheating, she needs to knock it off. Full stop. Despite Rhiannon87's unfortunate habit of soapbox-ranting about the individual and multi-faceted nature of the feminine mind (such a typical thing for a chick to say anyway :smalltongue:), she's entirely correct that in this instance her gender makes no difference whatsoever. This is about the rules that everyone else seems to have agreed to follow and that she's decided to disregard.

2. Alert the authorities. This is the overly lawful part. It's not your job (or your responsibility) to fix this. You tell the DM, they decide what to do. At that point, you either accept the verdict or you leave the game. Maybe the DM will ignore it. Or maybe they'll call her on it in public, call her names, demand sexual favours and send her to therapy for the rest of her life, but that is also not your responsibility.

Your job is to tell the dude/chick in charge and then decide whether you accept or reject the consequences. Done.

rooster
2009-11-10, 07:57 PM
Why does this bother you?

I guess I just don't see the appeal of alienating this girl or preaching your ethics at her.

How would that benefit you? What does her number-bending cost?

CorvidMP
2009-11-10, 08:12 PM
As a military police officer i highly recomend the employment olieum capsacium spray right to her eye balls everytime she tries it....once the screams of agony stop an hour or so later she'll be much less likely to try again...

In all seriousness pull her aside and call her on it, and failing that call her on it front of the full group,cause...and i may be getting a little un pc here...your gm may never do it due to her gender.
I'm not saying he's trying to sleep with or anything crass like that (i mean he maybe but thats not what im talking about), its just that some guys tend to let females get away with murder, go softer on em out some kinda misdirected sense of chivalry.
Thats bs quite frankly, call her on her crap. She'll either knock it off or act like a child and leave the group...just don't puss out and appologize if she throws a fit, that level of dishonesty is crap quitefrankly.

What does her number bending cost? Well his enjoyment of the game for one, likely his big hobby. It's also just fricking disrepectful to more or less lie to friends faces on a consistant basis, even in a game setting. We've all fudged a roll here or there i'm sure, but this sounds like quite the pattern of cheating.

Emmerask
2009-11-10, 08:22 PM
Why does this bother you?

I guess I just don't see the appeal of alienating this girl or preaching your ethics at her.

How would that benefit you? What does her number-bending cost?


well to me all me and my group would accomplish would feel quite shallow and not at all satisfactory if I knew someone did cheat and only because of that we did win.

Another thing is that the dm will have a completly false impression about the overall powerlevel the group has and thus can´t create well balanced encounters/skill checks anymore which will decrease the fun further...

AshDesert
2009-11-10, 08:31 PM
Why does this bother you?

I guess I just don't see the appeal of alienating this girl or preaching your ethics at her.

How would that benefit you? What does her number-bending cost?

There are several things that would bother me if someone at my table were cheating. First is that they are blatantly lying to you and the people you're playing with, and they are completely disregarding the agreed-upon rules that you are operating on. Plus, (at least for me) it cheapens victory if I know someone at the table is cheating, since them cheating likely had a significant effect on the encounter.

Now, as for solutions, I personally like the subtle solutions. I'd just tell your DM that you have suspicions about a player (whether or not you want to name her is up to you) and post a "NO CHEATING" sign on his screen.

Count Dravda
2009-11-10, 09:08 PM
Get her a gift. A giant, whopping, 3-inch-diameter d20. If you need to disguise it, laugh and say, "If you need BIG NUMBERS, you use a BIG DIE!" or "When you don't have time to screw around..." The upshot of this is that it's an awesome novelty die that everyone wants to see used, and it's MUCH harder to cheat with (makes a nice, satisfying THUNK whenever it lands).

-Count Dravda

Ridureyu
2009-11-10, 09:25 PM
Get her a gift. A giant, whopping, 3-inch-diameter d20. If you need to disguise it, laugh and say, "If you need BIG NUMBERS, you use a BIG DIE!" or "When you don't have time to screw around..." The upshot of this is that it's an awesome novelty die that everyone wants to see used, and it's MUCH harder to cheat with (makes a nice, satisfying THUNK whenever it lands).

-Count Dravda



But only if you use a glass table.

Thurbane
2009-11-10, 09:30 PM
Bring it to the DMs attention, so he can catch the player in the act. Then it's up to the DM how he deals with it. Stuff like this makes games un-fun. :smallfrown:

Sleepingbear
2009-11-10, 09:44 PM
Others have already said it. It's not a players responsibility to stop a cheater and there's not really anything they can do in any case. The DM has both the power and the responsibility to stop the cheating. Your only responsibility is to report it.

As a friend, you owe it to her to try and help her with her problem. Because it is a problem. For her and for those around her. I can tell she's your friend because you're agonizing over it. If it were just some fellow player you only see when you game, you'd probably just call them out on it either privately or openly.

Therefore I suggest that you talk to her privately. Tell her that you've noticed her cheating. Don't phrase it such away as to allow doubt and wave away objections. Calmly explain to her that you're worried about her and what her activities say about her. Inform her matter-of-a-factly that if it continues you will tell the DM. Then do it if she continues.

If she's friends with everyone at the table, then perhaps what is called for is for the group to collectively talk to her about it. Try not to embarress her unduly but don't allow her the option of denial either.

Doing nothing is likely a mistake. If you've noticed it's possible and even likely others have too. If it bothers you, it is possible and likely that it bothers others as well. You do her no favors by doing nothing.

Good luck and I hope everything works out for you.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-10, 09:58 PM
Just kill her character every time you catch her cheating. You don't have to do it right away. Wait for nighttime. Eventually, she'll give up cheating or making new characters. Either way, problem solved.

Alternatively, try to sleep with her character. :smallwink:

rooster
2009-11-10, 11:28 PM
There are several things that would bother me if someone at my table were cheating. First is that they are blatantly lying to you and the people you're playing with, and they are completely disregarding the agreed-upon rules that you are operating on. Plus, (at least for me) it cheapens victory if I know someone at the table is cheating, since them cheating likely had a significant effect on the encounter.
I'd rather cheapen victories than humiliate friends, as quite a few posts have recommended.

There was a player in one of my old groups who outright cheated. The only time he'd fail checks and saves were the times the DM had to roll for him (spot checks, effects he wouldn't notice, etc). His cheating is no different than character optimization, as far as I'm concerned. It's just that one requires hours poring over sourcebooks while the other is more direct.

Raewyn
2009-11-10, 11:29 PM
Ha! A shamelessly transparent lie. Whenever I do something to upset my wife, every woman in my family and our circle of friends knows about it instantly and chastises me about it. What can this be if not proof that women have a hive mind?

He's onto us. Fem Hivemind, go!

On a more serious note, I was in a very similar situation a while back. "That Guy" in our group was rolling unreadable dice and rolled nothing lower than a 15 one night. My DM was laid-back and afraid to overflex his might, so ultimately, I started a player intervention. I was ready to tear the guy's throat out (he had many more irritating qualities), so another guy broached the topic. Here are a few tips I can give you.

- Either have the DM do it or make sure the DM approves of you approaching her. If your cheater gets defensive (hopefully won't happen) and starts asking what right you have to question her, you'll want the main wo/man on your side.

- Don't accuse her of anything. People who are accused of things get defensive, and convincing her to change her ways will be nigh-impossible if she feels threatened.

- Take her aside and tell her that you've noticed some curious behaviors on her part. Emphasize how you know she doesn't have any malicious intent, but for the sake of transparency, she should start rolling her dice in the open. This'll let her know that you know, but at the same time give her an easy out to change it; if anyone asks, she can just say, "Oh, Lostfang said I should be transparent or somesuch. Yeah, he's a total nutter."

- Approach her in private; humiliation will only tick her off and make what you're attempting to do more difficult.

I'll let you know if I think of anything else.

Maryring
2009-11-11, 05:46 AM
http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2007-02-10.gif

bosssmiley
2009-11-11, 07:01 AM
D&D is a game that can be played a lot of different ways. Some people play it like a mechanical war game where every role matters and others play it like a free form story telling session where dice rolls may be fudged or ignored all together.

I'd have loved to have seen you make that argument in front of Gary Gygax.
If you disregard the dice you're playing magic tea party, not D&D.

I like Count Dravda's "big numbers need a big die" idea. It's better than my stock answer that cheats should be treated like disobedient dogs and hit on the nose with a rolled newspaper. :smallbiggrin:

Simba
2009-11-11, 07:14 AM
One of the guys in my original gaming group used to cheat all the time in order to get the most spectacular successes with his usuallly very strange characters. We all knew it, we taled about it (without him present) and then simply ignored the fact in order to have fun. The GM used to take his "special luck with the dice" into account when it bacame too much for the rest of us.
In the end we all had fun and did not need to quarrel about it. Sometimes we did look at him and his dice when he rolled, but only to keep him from overdoing it.

Cyanic
2009-11-11, 07:47 AM
i have a simple rule at my table:

if i don't see the roll made, roll it again.



That how I run mine too, makes perfect sense and doesn't create drama or single out the cheater. Also, apparently my gaming groups have a terrible gender ratio, last 3 years has been all male. :smallmad:

Simba
2009-11-11, 07:50 AM
Also, apparently my gaming groups have a terrible gender ratio, last 3 years has been all male. :smallmad:

We tried for years to recruit girls/women into our gaming groups, the only one to join was my (now ex) girlfriend, she used to play with us until we split up. She seemed to have fun, too and said she did not join only to be with me but also because the game was great. In 24 years of gaming she was the only woman. Sad, so sad :smallfrown:

karnokoto
2009-11-11, 07:57 AM
Normally I'd say anyone who fudges a diceroll has a complex and a teeny johnson but thats obviously not the case here :smallwink:

I like the idea of the DM screen sign. It doesn't single anyone out- hell the rest of the group may think its a joke. But the girl whos cheating will likely think 'crap! somebody knows!' and quit with the fudging.
If she doesn't, you may need to take her aside.

Okay, here's my uterus-wielding-standpoint on the girl issue:
Girls who play Dungeons & Dragons are not delicate snowflakes, and they don't expect to be treated as such. You don't NEED to handle female players any differently- hell if we wanted to be treated like girly girls we'd freakin go have a tea party or something. If she's being a douche let her know. To her face. Doesn't matter when, but she has to know. If she freaks out and throws a tantrum, shes not the kind of player you want in your group anyway. If shes calm & cool, awesome.

Raar. :smalltongue:

Cyanic
2009-11-11, 08:03 AM
Is the uterus a finess weapon ? Does using it provoke AoO ?

karnokoto
2009-11-11, 08:04 AM
It DOES take one whole round to reload : /

Quietus
2009-11-11, 08:11 AM
Okay, here's my uterus-wielding-standpoint on the girl issue:
Girls who play Dungeons & Dragons are not delicate snowflakes, and they don't expect to be treated as such. You don't NEED to handle female players any differently- hell if we wanted to be treated like girly girls we'd freakin go have a tea party or something. If she's being a douche let her know. To her face. Doesn't matter when, but she has to know. If she freaks out and throws a tantrum, shes not the kind of player you want in your group anyway. If shes calm & cool, awesome.

Raar. :smalltongue:

Stop being so sensible, please. Can't you see we're trying to start a lynch mob?

Eldariel
2009-11-11, 08:15 AM
Normally I'd say anyone who fudges a diceroll has a complex and a teeny johnson but thats obviously not the case here :smallwink:

Maybe she feels underequipped on other, more feminine areas?

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-11, 08:20 AM
Superior Firepower.

I tried the whole calm "It looks like you cheated, could you tell me what is going on." thing before and it backfired horribly, although I could well imagine the person I tried it with was considerably more unbalanced then who you are dealing with.

Depending on their personality, they might feel that they have to defend their reputation. If they feel that way, one of the best ways to do that is to try and destroy yours. If you think that might try something like that catch them in the act instead of being polite about it.

karnokoto
2009-11-11, 08:21 AM
Maybe she feels underequipped on other, more feminine areas?

What, a tiny uterus? :smallwink:

Khanderas
2009-11-11, 08:38 AM
Is the uterus a finess weapon ? Does using it provoke AoO ?
I had a long line packed with innuendo's here. After I wrote it, but before I posted it, I realised it way way over the top and really shouldnt be shared.

Simba
2009-11-11, 08:44 AM
Yeah, this thread is coming off topic fast. Thx for sparing us, I did the same :)

Michaelos
2009-11-11, 09:47 AM
Flip this around and consider it in game. You notice that one of your teammates has completely insane luck. You decide that you're sick of this and hit them with a bestow curse spell so they'll stop outshining the rest of the team. Every time they get it removed, you recast it.

This would probably be less painful for the character then going down from cheating dice to normal dice. but chances are the rest of your party would get sick of it and make you stop it.

So from the perspective of a fellow PC, I don't recommend confronting them about this.

From the perspective of a DM, I've had my wife give me plenty of affectionate bribes to allow for better result X when she's playing D&D as a PC. When we did periodically play D&D with my best friend, this was never an issue. I get bonus bribes, she gets her victories, my best friend gets his victories (Since he's a PC and they mostly have the same objectives.)

So from the perspective of a DM, I don't recommend confronting them about this.

But it may be too much to shrug off, or maybe you just want the experience of playing in a more honest rolls game. In that case, then I recommend telling the truth, but as a nameless/blameless how do I handle this way. Something like:

"I think someone at the table has been cheating, and I haven't been having as much fun because of it, but I don't want to call them out explicitly and make a huge scene, particularly since I could be mistaken. What should I do?"

Don't mention the fact that you're SURE they're cheating. Even if you are, and from your statistics measurements I'm sure you ARE sure, giving them the benefit of the doubt will help your messages tone.

Keshay
2009-11-11, 09:56 AM
Just another thought. If your friendship can not survive calling them out on cheating at a game you're playing together, then you all really are not that close of friends to begin with.

The simple fact that they cheat to the extent you describe is a clear indication that they do not respect the people at the table, nor the game they are playing.

You could go passive-agressive. Instead of D&D, play Monopoly one night. Frequently and blatantly take money from the bank. If she calls you on it, just say "I certainly didn't expect you of all people to have an issue..." Then start giving her money too.

The dice rolling is one thing, but ignoring the DMs xp rewards and giving herself what she thinks she deserves? This is not a friend you need to play D&D with.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-11, 10:10 AM
A lot of people have been bringing up the “Why complain if she’s not hurting you?” and mentioning that it’s not worth bringing up if she’s not trying to cheat the party, only the DM. Why bring it up? Who’s it hurting?

For some mindsets, that’s totally okay and I do agree. It probably wouldn’t hurt anything. But its obvious that his enjoyment of the game is marred because of this. If the dice rolls really don’t matter to the folks at the table, then they can throw away their books and the DM screen and the dice and just freeform RP for the same level of enjoyment (and as a freeformer at my roots, there is a LOT of enjoyment in that).

But when you sit down to play D&D, there is a tacit and implicit agreement that you have entered a game with rules and that you will obey those rules to some degree that has been reached by consensus. The only person who is understood to not necessarily play by those rules is the DM, but its doubly understood that he will fudge those rules for a good reason, rather than a bad one. A cheating player has no such implied reasons to cheat beyond their own benefit (and by extent the party’s, though there is a high likelihood this is mostly accidental).

If you sit down to play D&D as the game its meant to be, cheating matters. If you don’t care about dice rolls, there are more entertaining ways to RP. When the rulebooks come out and you start rolling 3d6 six times, the line between “roleplayers” and “rollplayers” becomes meaningless. You have to be both if you’re going to be either in D&D.

…so yeah. I’m not sure where I was going with this, but I really like the last paragraph, so I’m posting it anyways. It makes me feel cool.

::puts on sunglasses::
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

truemane
2009-11-11, 10:13 AM
smarty-pants talk-talk-talk

I agree. You are brilliant. You must sleep with me or you're out of the forum.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-11, 10:23 AM
I agree. You are brilliant. You must sleep with me or you're out of the forum.

I call top bunk

truemane
2009-11-11, 10:28 AM
I call top bunk

Sorry. I rolled an average of 15 on my grapple checks. Top bunk is mine.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-11, 10:30 AM
Sorry. I rolled an average of 15 on my grapple checks. Top bunk is mine.

Dude you could have just used the ladder.

truemane
2009-11-11, 10:33 AM
Dude you could have just used the ladder.

tl;dr

(Heh. Nice one.)

Asbestos
2009-11-11, 10:46 AM
Could someone explain the dice tower suggestion? How would that help?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 10:49 AM
I suspect the idea is that it leads to everyone using it, and thus, making rolls very public.

Wouldn't work in my group, thanks to the map hogging most of the central table space, but might help for some. Thankfully, cheaters aren't an issue in my group.

If they cheat routinely...something needs to be done. If you're comfortable talking to them about it, do so. If not, talk to the DM, let them handle it.

Simba
2009-11-11, 10:50 AM
Well, using the dice tower, one would have to roll in front of all the others, making cheating much more obvious, unless everyone used his or her own tower.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 10:50 AM
Dice Tower (http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Formboard-Dice-Tower/), I think.

They cut down cheating and since everyone would be using it, it'd seem like you weren't singling out the cheater.

Of course, with her method of cheating, it might not do anything.

If it gets to be horrible, you could switch to cards instead of dice. You get a number of cards that are some multiple of twenty and label them 1 through 20, with an equal amount of each. You flip over the top card in order to "roll" and reshuffle once you hit the bottom. This has the side-effect of people thinking (slightly)* less about luck since you hit every number an even amount of times. Just make sure the DM has a separate deck.

If you're too lazy to make cards yourself, get a normal deck, remove the face cards, and say that black cards are worth 10 more than red.

*It's a game and in any game, everyone complains about luck constantly, even the Statistics Professors.

Keshay
2009-11-11, 10:59 AM
My apologies, but the card-draw instead of dice rolling has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Perhaps it would work if you reshuffled after each draw, but a general rule of thumb is "never do anything to intentionally slow down gameplay".

There is no way I'd ever consider playing a game with the card draw system.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 11:01 AM
How would it slow anything down? It takes less time to draw a card from the middle of the table as it does to roll a die.

And why would you reshuffle after every draw? That's nuts.

Besides, they use stuff like that for LARPing, where you can't just throw dice into the grass.

I doubt it's the worst idea. Here's a worse one: Lick stray dogs who have rabies.

Asbestos
2009-11-11, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the link UglyPanda, I've never encountered such an object. I think I might make a couple as some of my players are really obnoxious with their rolls; at least one die falling off the table, colliding violently with the minis, or mixing with unrolled dice. Every. Single. Turn.:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 11:04 AM
How would it slow anything down? It takes less time to draw a card from the middle of the table as it does to roll a die.

And why would you reshuffle after every draw? That's nuts.

Because some people are very good at counting cards, and everyone is going to take notice of crits and crit fails, which leads to people realizing things like "hey, all the 1's or 20's have been drawn". This could easily lead to metagaming...it doesn't have to, but the temptation is there, and if someone is already willing to fudge die rolls, it's not a huge stretch to believe they might abuse this system as well.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 11:06 AM
I'm aware of the cheating potential. However, this girl is bad at cheating. If she were capable of counting cards, she wouldn't be so obvious in her cheating.

Of course, if the DM draws from the same deck and keeps his cards a secret, it cuts down on potential cheating a little. Another possibility would be shuffling at random short intervals with a really large deck.

But, it was just a suggestion.

truemane
2009-11-11, 11:17 AM
See, this is the underly sympathetic thing I've been talking about. I don't see the value in changing the game to suit the one person not playing by the rules. If you want to deal with the cheater and then institute some new rules, no problem, that only makes sense.

But why spare her feelings? She's cheating. And if what the OP says, quite blantantly and quite pervasively. And, quite frankly, how she feels about being called out stops being an issue for me.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 11:21 AM
I'm in the "Call the girl" out crowd too, but using a dice tower in the first place was in the opposite direction, so I made a suggestion of that type. Not a good suggestion, but a suggestion none the less.

It doesn't matter that she has a uterus unless the OP has a crush on her or something. And that doesn't change anything. All it would change is the OP's willingness to call her out on her cheating.

The thing is, cheaters will always deny it and it's her word against yours unless you have a camera or something. Before you do anything, you need to tell the DM and some of the other players. While you do something, you have to make sure she doesn't go nuts denying the accusation (this would not change even with a Y-chromosome, mostly you're just trying not to get punched during this stage). After you do something, you have to decide whether this girl is worth continuing to play with.

Keshay
2009-11-11, 11:57 AM
You'll note I said "one of the worst ideas", not the worst. And any reasonable person can assume context when assessing an opinion of value.
ie: the statement "Joe Person is the worst player ever" can only reasonably be taken to mean worst player in the sport being discussed. Comparing him to bad players of other sports is meaningless in terms of progressing a thoguht or discussion.

You have to shuffle after each draw in order to maintain some semblance of random number generation, otherwise the results will be biased by any previous draws, which would be the equivalent of having a dice that were increasingly loaded towards variable results. Imagine if the DM instituted a rule that if you rolled a 20, you had to reroll any additional 20s until you had gotten results of 1 through 19. Would you play that game? If so... I don't know what to tell you, but i would not.

Its just a bad idea to go through a whole deck like that without shuffling.

Since you have to shuffle after each draw in order to maintain a semblance of unbiased results, there is significant slowing. I'm fairly good at shuffling cards, and three passes (minimum to adequately randomize results) takes ~10 seconds.

Imagine you have a Hasted lvl 11 TWF Ranger. There's a full minute right there in order to resolve a single round of atacks.

Its been a long time since I LARPed, but there were no cards used as far as I recall. Such a thing would have led to an even quicker departure from that particualr subculture. Besides, what do you think those little rectangular cases dice come in are for? One quick flick of the wrist and you've rolled your 20 with no chance of losing the die.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 12:02 PM
You're getting too worked up. I admitted it was bad already, get over it.

Keshay
2009-11-11, 12:09 PM
You're getting too worked up. I admitted it was bad already, get over it.

Answering a question or series of questions is getting "worked up".
Gotcha. You know, that does explain a lot. NOt ever answering question woudl have saved me a lot of grief in life.

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 12:11 PM
I think you need to relax a little. That's all I'm saying.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-11, 12:37 PM
My basic answer when I even suspect cheating is pretty simple: I use my "time expedient" solution, in which the player on the opposite side of the table does the rolling. This saves time, because each player is free to spread out the books and papers they need to reference without needing to either empty their hands or clear space for the dice to roll when it's their turn. It keeps other players more engaged rather than just doing nothing for one complete circuit through the initiative order. And it really cuts down on fudged die rolls.

Fitz10019
2009-11-11, 12:53 PM
The best way to defeat a bad idea in a group discussion is to ignore it and propose a different idea. Attacking a bad idea often triggers the idea-spawner to defend the idea, which wastes discussion time. UglyPanda's willingness to abandon his idea early on was fortunate and mature.

If everyone's using a dice tower, is it stationary? Does everyone get a gift-wrapping-paper-tube to use to send his dice directly into the tower? Oh, no, that's a new sidetrack, isn't it?

I wonder why this cheater cheats. Insecurity? Self-centeredness? That would affect my approach to the situation. I disagree that the DM's job includes policing. The DM is a storyteller, and has enough to do with that responsibility.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-11, 01:03 PM
I think you need to relax a little. That's all I'm saying.

GUYS. DO I HAVE TO BREAK OUT THE ICE CREAM?

I'll do it.

It's Rum Raisin.

Keshay
2009-11-11, 01:08 PM
GUYS. DO I HAVE TO BREAK OUT THE ICE CREAM?

I'll do it.

It's Rum Raisin.

You had Sauteed Sea Bass for dinner?

BlackSheep
2009-11-11, 02:08 PM
i have a simple rule at my table:

if i don't see the roll made, roll it again.

stops cheaters dead in their tracks.

except for that one dimwit who turned up with loaded dice.

after the fifth nat 20 in a row, i dropped his die in a tumbler of water: BUSTED!

I'm curious about this. What happens if you put a loaded die into a glass of water?

UglyPanda
2009-11-11, 02:22 PM
Google provides an answer: Link (http://www.comptropolis.com/2009/06/crooked-dice.html)

I'm guessing the cheater's dice floated.

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-11, 04:28 PM
I have heard of people who put their dice in the microwave, what does that do?

Random832
2009-11-11, 04:34 PM
I have heard of people who put their dice in the microwave, what does that do?

It can soften the material and distort the shape to be heavier on the side that is facing down (and thus more likely to land the same way up as it was microwaved)

ErrantX
2009-11-11, 04:43 PM
I don't have problems with people cheating dice rolls, I do happen to have a problem player (in many, many ways) who cheats with his wands. I can't keep track of his charges easily, as I run an honor system with everyone at the table. They all keep track of charged items, but this player does not, I have never once seen him tick off things on a wand. He uses gratuitous amounts of Metamagic Spelltrigger (artificer) with them and double wand wielder using Twin Spell, Action Surge for another Twin Spell, and Quicken Spell to sling the pain.

Yeah...

How do you confront a player on that without being an outright jerk?

-X

truemane
2009-11-11, 04:51 PM
Spot checks. I don't mean the skill. I mean, every now and again, you make a habit out of asking a player how many charges are left on a given item. And you jot it down. You have some idea of how many times a given item is used, so spot check A - estimated charges lost should = sport check B several sessions later. If it doesn't, you have an issue.

And you can do that with everyone, every now and again, and no one feels targeted and you'll have your answer pretty quickly. And like someone else said, once cheaters know they're being watched, they generally start controlling themselves. Maybe not all the way, but at least partially.

And if you find there is a problem, a simple 'Everyone tells the truth or you lose your honour system' rule should increase social pressure for him to stop. I don't want to lose my ability to occasionally 'forget' to mark off a charge because some jerk NEVER marks one off.

Gnomo
2009-11-11, 05:10 PM
In my table you can cheat... but if I catch you, you are screwed, I apply the tenfold rule.

If you are not taking into account damage and I see that you should be dead, you're dead... ten times, you lose ten levels at resurrection, or just 9 if you are resurrected with True Rez.

If you are using a bigger attack bonus or AC than you should, you get 10 times the extra bonus as a penalty for 10 sessions you play.

If you are using a spell, power or item that you can't actually use, you lose the ability to use it for 10 sessions you play, and during that time you also lose the spell slot used or ten times the power points necessary to manifest the power.

If you fudge your rolls...oh boy, you got ten natural 1s whenever I call them... usually on the SoDs.

Winthur
2009-11-11, 05:21 PM
After you notice that the game is way too easy for this one particular player and you're the DM, stretch yourself on your chair and say with the gayest voice possible:

"Gee! It sure is boring around here!"

And proceed to send a powerful random encounter on the party with monsters that are a little too harsh towards the cheating character.

This is how it is done:
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7228/demonstration.jpg (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/demonstration.jpg/)

(yes, this is from my ZvT. With Pepe_Quicose (aka the artist formerly known as WarNiX), to the boot.)

After the encounter (assuming they survive of course), make an authority character convinced that the cheater stole some of his money and execute this money out of him, while saying: "Mah boi! Honesty is what all true warriors strive for!"

This should get the message across nicely. If it doesn't, rinse&repeat.

Pointing your finger and yelling "HOLD IT!" might be advisable if you catch him red-handed.

Then offer to sleep with him/her anyway.


So many resources! Why are they not being spent!

My macro sucks and I was too excited with the fact I was winning against WarNiX, which is srs business. I'm just a D player and I'm still not used to proper macro (and it is often pointed out I'm never properly concentrated). :smalltongue:

Random832
2009-11-11, 05:22 PM
In my table you can cheat... but if I catch you, you are screwed, I apply the tenfold rule.

This is foolish. If your goal is to drive people away, it's much easier to just kick them out of the group outright.

If your goal is not to drive people away, I cannot imagine what else you think you will accomplish this way.

sofawall
2009-11-11, 05:24 PM
This is how it is done:
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7228/demonstration.jpg (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/demonstration.jpg/)

(yes, this is from my ZvT. With Pepe_Quicose (aka the artist formerly known as WarNiX), to the boot.)


So many resources! Why are they not being spent!

EleventhHour
2009-11-11, 05:28 PM
So many resources! Why are they not being spent!

You Need To Construct Additional Pylo Overlords

@V- :smallsigh:

Winthur
2009-11-11, 05:30 PM
You Need To Construct Additional Pylo Overlords

Both lines are never spoken or written throughout the entire game. You mean "Spawn more overlords" (which is a moot point, because I have plenty of them) and "You must construct additional pylons" (which the Zerg can't build). :smalltongue:

Here's another idea. Make it so that after the encounter that the player cheated in, you don't give him anything. Instead, it should go like this: let's assume that in this group Rossiu is the cheater.
"Simon, you get 1000 XP for bringing down that Gunmen. Kamina, you get 1500 XP for being awesome. Yoko, you get 1000 XP for wearing revealing outfits. Rossiu..."
At this moment you don't give him anything. You suddenly turn on the music, put on your sunglasses and start dancing to Never Gonna Give You Up while singing the lyrics. It FITS LIKE HELL. "You know the rules and so do I, A full commitment's what I am thinking of", etc. And sing the ENTIRE song in it's full glory. The rest of the party is forced to see you dancing and singing (props if you do both things horribly but not horribly enough to make it funny) and all of them have to sit through it or their characters die. Also, don't give him any reward he was supposed to get - he was cheating, after all. Do it everytime he uses a cheat. This way, he will be murdered if he tries to pull this off for the second time.

And of course, try to seduce him/her later.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-11, 06:23 PM
Really, I would say talk to the player before the DM. It's not your responsibility but you sound like you want to resolve the conflict in a diplomatic manner and the fact you are taking into account the players history tells me you'd rather not completely crush her.

If you think the DM will be fair then tell the DM, otherwise bring it up with the player. You don't have to be aggressive, just start by opening a dialogue. Catch her alone and let her know you noticed and you're curious why, then see if you can help her with whatever is making her cheat. Again, it's not your responsibility to do any of this. If she is unreasonable and won't stop let her know you're going to talk to the DM about it if she doesn't. Things will probably go smoother if she turns herself in but if she doesn't it's on you to do it if you want it done.

Really it doesn't sound like she's doing it to be a prick so I don't think you need to tie her to a post and burn her just yet in terms of if she should be punished for her cheating. Decide how much you want this to be on you and either tell the DM and take action accordingly.

Hope this helps.

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-11, 07:56 PM
From the perspective of a DM, I've had my wife give me plenty of affectionate bribes to allow for better result X when she's playing D&D as a PC. When we did periodically play D&D with my best friend, this was never an issue. I get bonus bribes, she gets her victories, my best friend gets his victories (Since he's a PC and they mostly have the same objectives.)

DM bribes are NOT the same as cheating! It's more like asking for mercy, only the DM gets something out of it. Or he can just say "no."

Cheating is taking things into your own hands, regardless of what anybody else thinks.

ghashxx
2009-11-11, 08:03 PM
There was a player in one of my old groups who outright cheated. The only time he'd fail checks and saves were the times the DM had to roll for him (spot checks, effects he wouldn't notice, etc). His cheating is no different than character optimization, as far as I'm concerned. It's just that one requires hours poring over sourcebooks while the other is more direct.

Blink blink :smallconfused:... I really really really hope you're joking about this. This is like saying "Shopping around and finding a place that sells bear cheap is the same as buying bear and stealing a few extra to make the cost per bear the same". Now obviously I took the principle, blew it up, and threw it into the context of a real life economic system which changes a lot of things. But still, to say that cheating is just the same thing as being really really good at optimizing a character is ridiculous! One is following the rules, if only the absolute technical terms which rubs me the wrong way sometimes, while deciding on a whim what your actual dice rolls are is taking the system and flipping it the bird.

Glass Mouse
2009-11-11, 09:57 PM
This is foolish. If your goal is to drive people away, it's much easier to just kick them out of the group outright.

If your goal is not to drive people away, I cannot imagine what else you think you will accomplish this way.

Really?

I was laughing when I read it, thinking "awesome!"
I mean, it's not like that rule is ever gonna be relevant. It's purely preventive (the way I see it, at least). As long as the GM isn't being a jerk about it; "Wait, you forgot a -2 penalty! This means a -20 penalty on EVERYTHING FOR 10 SESSIONS!!!"

But seriously... The tenfold rule sounds like a nice way to catch cheating before it happens.

RandomNPC
2009-11-11, 10:27 PM
we've got a player who always seems to roll 21 on everything. the rest of the group has discussed, and our DM seems to set an awful lot of DCs at 22.

Ormagoden
2009-11-13, 02:07 PM
Is there a way to delete a thread?
I kind of resent the fact that I asked for someone's opinion and they flame me for it under the guise of feminism.

Random832
2009-11-13, 02:10 PM
Is there a way to delete a thread?
I kind of resent the fact that I asked for someone's opinion and they flame me for it under the guise of feminism.

Who flamed you? I'm looking back at the thread and... I just don't see it.

Jayabalard
2009-11-13, 02:16 PM
if someone flames you, you should report those posts. there's a very low tolerance for flaming on this board.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 02:33 PM
Who flamed you? I'm looking back at the thread and... I just don't see it.

I just went through the whole thread and didn't see anything, either.

dsmiles
2009-11-13, 02:42 PM
As a DM, I fudge die rolls, but that's normal. All DM's fudge rolls when something isn't going right (like the 3 Kobolds are whuppin' up on the 10th level party because the party can't seem to roll anything other than nat 1s). Sometimes I fudge for the players, sometimes against.

If it's brought to my attention that a player is cheating, I ensure that he/she sits next to me at the table where I can keep an eye on him/her.

If I catch a player cheating:

ForTheGreaterMod: (insert name here) is banned for cheating.

Also, I've noticed, as a player now, that Karma has a way of catching up to cheaters (a critical fumble on a save-or-die effect that one of the other players just happens to see before the cheater can change his/her die roll). Players that cheat when they're rolling characters also seem to have excessively bad luck when playing said characters. Usually, it all works itself out in the end.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-13, 02:45 PM
Is there a way to delete a thread?
I kind of resent the fact that I asked for someone's opinion and they flame me for it under the guise of feminism.

I'm guessing he means some of the comments from women posters who mentioned/implied that he was silly asking for a female opinion because gender shouldn't matter in this issue. It spawned a short commentary and Rhiannon's rant of fury and uteral vengeance upon my silly comments.

Is uteral a word?

It should be.

Make it so.

Keshay
2009-11-13, 02:52 PM
Is uteral a word?

It should be.

Make it so.

It is. It is an effective synonym for uterine. Commonly one is used to describe internal bodies/conditions (uterine) and the other exterior (uteral).

ghashxx
2009-11-13, 02:59 PM
Rhiannon's rant of fury and uteral vengeance upon my silly comments...

Is uteral a word?

It should be.

Make it so.

I think what you're looking for is "utterly" meaning complete and absolute in which case it would read "and Rhiannons rant of utterly furious vengeance upon my silly comments"

sofawall
2009-11-13, 03:00 PM
I think what you're looking for is "utterly" meaning complete and absolute in which case it would read "and Rhiannons rant of utterly furious vengeance upon my silly comments"

That is incorrect.

Ormagoden
2009-11-13, 03:01 PM
Yeah that was kinda uncalled for...
Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 03:05 PM
Yeah that was kinda uncalled for...
Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess.

Eh? I don't know what you are referring to.

Delwugor
2009-11-13, 03:13 PM
Is she cheating you or other players? If not then seriously all she is doing is cheating herself.
In that case, I'd mention it to the GM and let him/her handle it.

If she is cheating you or another player then pointedly mention something without directly calling her out one cheating. For example "What was that first dice you rolled?" "How do those numbers add up to 27?" "How many rolls did it take to get that 17?". Yes it's a bit passive-aggressive so YMMV.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-13, 03:21 PM
I think what you're looking for is "utterly" meaning complete and absolute in which case it would read "and Rhiannons rant of utterly furious vengeance upon my silly comments"

Yep, that's not what I meant. I was referrin' to the old baby-maker blood-hog.

And it wasn't really supposed to be a flame, I think, Lostfang.

Put yourself in a female gamer's shoes, ignoring the fact that they are probably too small for you. Half this thread initially reads as "OH GIRLS ARE SILLY AND BLAH!" plus I'm not helping anyone.

Back to my original point, you nail her yet?

ghashxx
2009-11-13, 04:40 PM
That is incorrect.

reference (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/utterly) time!! Fill the other 10 characters and presto

sofawall
2009-11-13, 06:11 PM
I think what you're looking for is "utterly" meaning complete and absolute in which case it would read "and Rhiannons rant of utterly furious vengeance upon my silly comments"

He was clearly not looking for utterly, however. Reference time! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7309521&postcount=124)

Karoht
2009-11-13, 06:44 PM
Here's a trick. Get one of those dice baffle boxes. You put the dice in the top, it bounces around inside, and spits out the bottom. It tends to get everyone to look when a die is rolled, without saying 'hey, I think that guy is cheating, watch his rolls.'

I did this when I had a player who was very very good at palming dice while I wasn't looking or checking the AC on a critter. I would only notice, because I'd constantly see a different color die on the table in front of the same player.

I also find that the baffle box helps to unclutter the table. You just leave all the necessary dice beside the box, people pick up what they need as they roll. Handy as hell.

Last but not least, try and give the player as many options as possible that avoid dice rolls. I find this makes for smarter and better players all around.

ghashxx
2009-11-14, 12:28 AM
He was clearly not looking for utterly, however. Reference time! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7309521&postcount=124)

It seems like in the 2 minutes after I hit the "quote" button on your post there was a host of other posts...or I was working with a page I had loaded earlier in the day. So at this point I don't even know what the "old baby-maker blood hog" thing is about. So confused now.

sofawall
2009-11-14, 12:19 PM
It seems like in the 2 minutes after I hit the "quote" button on your post there was a host of other posts...or I was working with a page I had loaded earlier in the day. So at this point I don't even know what the "old baby-maker blood hog" thing is about. So confused now.

He was talking about a uterus, therefore, he meant uteral.

Volos
2009-11-14, 12:46 PM
If players fudge dice rolls I tend to notice that they stop enjoying the game as much. I try to get their attention back into the game again, if not just auto-fail them when I seem them mess with a die roll.

gdiddy
2009-11-14, 03:27 PM
Hey! I know you! I know that cheater, too!

Why not just bring it up to Joe? I brought it up to Damien when we were all gaming together. He said it didn't matter, because everyone was having a good time. With this cheater, you have to pick your battles, I think. However, I think Joe may see eye-to-eye with you. Maybe a simple "everything get's rolled in plain sight" rule, without accusation.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-11-14, 05:15 PM
I remember when a whole bunch of us were feeling awkward and embarrassed because one of the players in our group - Roger, let's call him - was cheating his dice rolls. He'd roll really quickly, then pick up the dice and declare the result with a shifty look. Terrible liar. Often he'd just say "I hit it!" without having been told the target number.

Anyway, a new player joined our group, a young lady named Clare, who was charmingly innocent and naive - or so she seemed. We all sat down to play, and before long, critical die rolls were being made. Sure enough Roger fudged his rolls, and Clare saw him do it.

"Awwww! Cheater!" she said, standing up. "Roger is a cheater, Roger is a cheater!" she sang out, pointing at him and his dice.

I'd like to say he never did it again, but he did. Just not when Clare was around.

ghashxx
2009-11-14, 07:52 PM
Anyway, a new player joined our group, a young lady named Clare, who was charmingly innocent and naive - or so she seemed. We all sat down to play, and before long, critical die rolls were being made. Sure enough Roger fudged his rolls, and Clare saw him do it.

"Awwww! Cheater!" she said, standing up. "Roger is a cheater, Roger is a cheater!" she sang out, pointing at him and his dice.

I'd like to say he never did it again, but he did. Just not when Clare was around.

Absoflippantlutely priceless

ShadowFighter15
2009-11-14, 08:50 PM
I remember when a whole bunch of us were feeling awkward and embarrassed because one of the players in our group - Roger, let's call him - was cheating his dice rolls. He'd roll really quickly, then pick up the dice and declare the result with a shifty look. Terrible liar. Often he'd just say "I hit it!" without having been told the target number.

Anyway, a new player joined our group, a young lady named Clare, who was charmingly innocent and naive - or so she seemed. We all sat down to play, and before long, critical die rolls were being made. Sure enough Roger fudged his rolls, and Clare saw him do it.

"Awwww! Cheater!" she said, standing up. "Roger is a cheater, Roger is a cheater!" she sang out, pointing at him and his dice.

I'd like to say he never did it again, but he did. Just not when Clare was around.

You should've done that dance whenever you saw someone cheating. Either you'll annoy the cheater into not doing it anymore, or annoy the DM into setting up anti-cheating measures like the sign on the DM screen or a "DM Needs To See The Dice Roll" policy.